Holy War

[dohminator]

On that note, what happened before God? how did God come into being?   

Welcome to philosophy!

I would posit that a God capable of creating this universe would transcend time and space. Of course the question remains...did something create him outside the boundaries of the Universe? I don't know....

How can something that exists outside the bounds of space and time affect the universe?  Either God has to be involved in the stream of time as we experience it to actually influence our time or he is separate from it entirely, and therefore would be the Christian God.  In order for god to create time, god would have to experience time. 

In order for god to affect the universe, he would have to be part of the universe somehow.  The same problem.  Either God can be active in the universe and be the God of Christianity or god is separate from the universe and truly eternal and supernatural. 

[dohminator]

Why would God decide to make it look like He had no hand in it at all. 

You're funny.

When you give me empirical evidence that amounts to more than just love, I'll accept it. 

And we love because love has helped us to survive as a species.  We also become aggressive because aggression has helped us to survive.  Is aggression something that God created in humans as well. 

[ArchE_Cat]

Why would God decide to make it look like He had no hand in it at all. 

You're funny.

When you give me empirical evidence that amounts to more than just love, I'll accept it. 

And we love because love has helped us to survive as a species.  We also become aggressive because aggression has helped us to survive.  Is aggression something that God created in humans as well. 

Subjecting yourself to the depravity that is life as a human and being tortured then hung on a cross to show your love. I would consider that to be aggressive. Your empirical evidence is an empty grave.

I love it when people try to make God's love this pretty pink valentine's day thing. It's not. It's gritty and raw. Despite all the gross things we do, He still loves us.

[the KHAN!]

And we love because love has helped us to survive as a species.  We also become aggressive because aggression has helped us to survive.  Is aggression something that God created in humans as well.

I don't see why not. Aggression on it's own is not inherently bad. "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose"

[dohminator]

Why would God decide to make it look like He had no hand in it at all. 

You're funny.

When you give me empirical evidence that amounts to more than just love, I'll accept it. 

And we love because love has helped us to survive as a species.  We also become aggressive because aggression has helped us to survive.  Is aggression something that God created in humans as well. 

Subjecting yourself to the depravity that is life as a human and being tortured then hung on a cross to show your love. I would consider that to be aggressive. Your empirical evidence is an empty grave.

I love it when people try to make God's love this pretty pink valentine's day thing. It's not. It's gritty and raw. Despite all the gross things we do, He still loves us.

I'm going to go ahead and revive this thread though I have left it alone for a bit.  First of all, how would god even become human?  God by all definitions resides outside of the bounds of nature and is not subject to it.   It really is a stretch that god would give up his own godness to be able to inhabit a human body.  It's a difficult issue to resolve well.

How is empirical evidence an empty grave? The very workings of the internet and computers are based on empirical evidence.  Both relativity and quantum mechanics are not mentioned in the bible, yet they are supported by empirical evidence.  Science and empirical evidence has advanced us as a species to the point where our average lifespan is way longer than it used to be.  Did religion come up with antibiotics or explain why some bacteria become resistant.  Did religion come up with the first vaccine?  Can the bible explain how a nuclear power plant works?  Or even why it works?   Empirical evidence is the basis for how we live.  If you don't agree with empiricism then maybe becoming Amish might suit you.   

to add: does the bible tell us how gravity works or the planets revolve around the sun.  It all comes down to people collecting data and trying to prove stuff right or wrong.  When claims made in the bible are disproven, then claims fall back and become more ambiguous. 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Why would God decide to make it look like He had no hand in it at all. 

You're funny.

When you give me empirical evidence that amounts to more than just love, I'll accept it. 

And we love because love has helped us to survive as a species.  We also become aggressive because aggression has helped us to survive.  Is aggression something that God created in humans as well. 

Subjecting yourself to the depravity that is life as a human and being tortured then hung on a cross to show your love. I would consider that to be aggressive. Your empirical evidence is an empty grave.

I love it when people try to make God's love this pretty pink valentine's day thing. It's not. It's gritty and raw. Despite all the gross things we do, He still loves us.

I'm going to go ahead and revive this thread though I have left it alone for a bit.  First of all, how would god even become human?  God by all definitions resides outside of the bounds of nature and is not subject to it.   It really is a stretch that god would give up his own godness to be able to inhabit a human body.  It's a difficult issue to resolve well.

How does he do it?  He's God.

How is empirical evidence an empty grave? The very workings of the internet and computers are based on empirical evidence.  Both relativity and quantum mechanics are not mentioned in the bible, yet they are supported by empirical evidence.  Science and empirical evidence has advanced us as a species to the point where our average lifespan is way longer than it used to be.  Did religion come up with antibiotics or explain why some bacteria become resistant.  Did religion come up with the first vaccine?  Can the bible explain how a nuclear power plant works?  Or even why it works?   Empirical evidence is the basis for how we live.  If you don't agree with empiricism then maybe becoming Amish might suit you. 


to add: does the bible tell us how gravity works or the planets revolve around the sun.  It all comes down to people collecting data and trying to prove stuff right or wrong.  When claims made in the bible are disproven, then claims fall back and become more ambiguous. 

You write like if you are a member of a religion you are anti-science.  Not true at all.  Science explains how God works. The Bible does not attempt to answer those questions (not the point of the book), so asking those questions is like asking if a cookbook tells you how install drywall.

[Panjandrum]

How does he do it?  He's God.

This is 99.4% of the reason it's impossible for me to believe in a deity. 

The, "Well, duh, he's God," excuse is probably the most intellectually dishonest and devoid argument in the history of mankind.

[Dirty Sanchez]

How is it intellectually dishonest?  I profess a belief in an omnipotent being with unlimited power.  That means He can do anything He pleases.  It's 100% consistent. 

A lot more consistent than the concurrent scientific beliefs in biogenesis and lightning striking a pool of mud creating life.

[dohminator]

Because instead of allowing for further thinking and exploration, it is just a way to end the conversation and I think it promotes ignorance.  Why shouldn't you try to resolve that conflict or find someone that has.

I think the problem that I was proposing as far as the bible goes is that the bible does make specific claims about how the world was created, and a lot of people reject what science has discovered about those processes because it does not fit their notions and because it creates a pretty significant amount of cognitive dissonance.  There are a lot of claims about how god intervenes in the world and creates miracles, yet, we can't truly ever study and verify that god intervenes in the world at all.  There is no strong evidence for it.  There are a lot of claims, there are a lot of "experiences", but there is no hard verifiable evidence.  I would love to see some, and if a god exists, a god that cares anything about humans, a god that intervenes in our life, then I would expect that that god would like us enough to reveal himself while we are alive to really give us an option of following him or not.   I shouldn't have to put my faith into a religious text that was written 2000 years ago and is not even consistent. 

But yes, the bible makes a lot of claims, many of which we can't verify and others that have been proven wrong. 

[pike]

Where was He on 9/11/01? 

[Panjandrum]

How is it intellectually dishonest?  I profess a belief in an omnipotent being with unlimited power.  That means He can do anything He pleases.  It's 100% consistent.  

A lot more consistent than the concurrent scientific beliefs in biogenesis and lightning striking a pool of mud creating life.

It's like some sort of cacty silly putty you buy on TV to fix something that's broken.

Need to plug that leaky faucet?  Use magic putty.  Need to glue that pipe back together?  Use magic putty.

Can't seem to wrap your head around some sort of concept or care to think too deeply about it?  Use God.

[Dirty Sanchez]

How is it intellectually dishonest?  I profess a belief in an omnipotent being with unlimited power.  That means He can do anything He pleases.  It's 100% consistent.  

A lot more consistent than the concurrent scientific beliefs in biogenesis and lightning striking a pool of mud creating life.

It's like some sort of cacty silly putty you buy on TV to fix something that's broken.

Need to plug that leaky faucet?  Use magic putty.  Need to glue that pipe back together?  Use magic putty.

Can't seem to wrap your head around some sort of concept or care to think too deeply about it?  Use God.

If you are intellectually honest, you can come to no other conclusion than that life can not spring from inanimate objects on its own. 

Walk through the woods.  Find an intricate pocketwatch lying there.  I bet you think it got there that way naturally rather than someone dropping it there.

Science claims to be an open book looking for answers wherever they may be. 

Except one.

[pike]

How is it intellectually dishonest?  I profess a belief in an omnipotent being with unlimited power.  That means He can do anything He pleases.  It's 100% consistent.  

A lot more consistent than the concurrent scientific beliefs in biogenesis and lightning striking a pool of mud creating life.

It's like some sort of cacty silly putty you buy on TV to fix something that's broken.

Need to plug that leaky faucet?  Use magic putty.  Need to glue that pipe back together?  Use magic putty.

Can't seem to wrap your head around some sort of concept or care to think too deeply about it?  Use God.

If you are intellectually honest, you can come to no other conclusion than that life can not spring from inanimate objects on its own. 

Walk through the woods.  Find an intricate pocketwatch lying there.  I bet you think it got there that way naturally rather than someone dropping it there.

Science claims to be an open book looking for answers wherever they may be. 

Except one.

So let's take the easy way out and say some "god" put it there.

[Panjandrum]

How is it intellectually dishonest?  I profess a belief in an omnipotent being with unlimited power.  That means He can do anything He pleases.  It's 100% consistent.  

A lot more consistent than the concurrent scientific beliefs in biogenesis and lightning striking a pool of mud creating life.

It's like some sort of cacty silly putty you buy on TV to fix something that's broken.

Need to plug that leaky faucet?  Use magic putty.  Need to glue that pipe back together?  Use magic putty.

Can't seem to wrap your head around some sort of concept or care to think too deeply about it?  Use God.

If you are intellectually honest, you can come to no other conclusion than that life can not spring from inanimate objects on its own. 

Walk through the woods.  Find an intricate pocketwatch lying there.  I bet you think it got there that way naturally rather than someone dropping it there.

Science claims to be an open book looking for answers wherever they may be. 

Except one.

Jesus Christ.  You really just used "The Watchmaker" argument.

Next thing you know, you'll go all St. Thomas Aquinas on me and start pushing a chair all over the room and say, "Now, this chair doesn't move itself.  It requires me to do it.  Therefore, I move because God moves me."

Just because I don't know the exact origins of the universe doesn't mean the most acceptable and logical conclusion is an invisible man that sees all, knows all, and is the reason for all.

Again, it goes back to your example.  If I see a watch laying in the woods, I'm thinking it was created by a magical leprechaun that cacs watches.  Because, honestly, that's as valid as any creation story given by any religion in the history of man.

Can't figure out how the watch got there?  cac.  It had to be God.

Oh, wait, it was dropped there by a guy named Joe?  Doesn't matter, God made Joe, so it was all His doing.  Praise God.

Huh?  Joe's mother and father had sex and that made Joe?  Doesn't matter.  God made Joe's parents, so it was all his doing.  Praise God, etc.

That's the thing about 'God'.  It's just moving the goalpost again and again because we find out some new fact.  The Earth is the center of the Universe.  Huh?  Doesn't matter.  You can't show me the rest of the universe.  A telescope?  Well, you can't tell me how the universe began.  You can look back 13 billion years with the Hubble?  Well, God's not a part of this space and time, so that doesn't matter...and on, and on, and on.

I mean, eff, where does it end?  When you base your beliefs on a magical deity that doesn't exist in our plane of existence, you can make it do whatever you want.  It's like a bad science fiction novel.

I really, really, really don't understand how anyone with a functioning brain can really believe in "God" unless they really have a fear of death.  That's the only explanation I can come up with.

[pike]

How is it intellectually dishonest?  I profess a belief in an omnipotent being with unlimited power.  That means He can do anything He pleases.  It's 100% consistent. 

A lot more consistent than the concurrent scientific beliefs in biogenesis and lightning striking a pool of mud creating life.

It's like some sort of cacty silly putty you buy on TV to fix something that's broken.

Need to plug that leaky faucet?  Use magic putty.  Need to glue that pipe back together?  Use magic putty.

Can't seem to wrap your head around some sort of concept or care to think too deeply about it?  Use God.

If you are intellectually honest, you can come to no other conclusion than that life can not spring from inanimate objects on its own. 

Walk through the woods.  Find an intricate pocketwatch lying there.  I bet you think it got there that way naturally rather than someone dropping it there.

Science claims to be an open book looking for answers wherever they may be. 

Except one.

Jesus Christ.  You really just used "The Watchmaker" argument.

Next thing you know, you'll go all St. Thomas Aquinas on me and start pushing a chair all over the room and say, "Now, this chair doesn't move itself.  It requires me to do it.  Therefore, I move because God moves me."

Just because I don't know the exact origins of the universe doesn't mean the most acceptable and logical conclusion is an invisible man that sees all, knows all, and is the reason for all.

Again, it goes back to your example.  If I see a watch laying in the woods, I'm thinking it was created by a magical leprechaun that cacs watches.  Because, honestly, that's as valid as any creation story given by any religion in the history of man.

Can't figure out how the watch got there?  cac.  It had to be God.

Oh, wait, it was dropped there by a guy named Joe?  Doesn't matter, God made Joe, so it was all His doing.  Praise God.

Huh?  Joe's mother and father had sex and that made Joe?  Doesn't matter.  God made Joe's parents, so it was all his doing.  Praise God, etc.

That's the thing about 'God'.  It's just moving the goalpost again and again because we find out some new fact.  The Earth is the center of the Universe.  Huh?  Doesn't matter.  You can't show me the rest of the universe.  A telescope?  Well, you can't tell me how the universe began.  You can look back 13 billion years with the Hubble?  Well, God's not a part of this space and time, so that doesn't matter...and on, and on, and on.

I mean, eff, where does it end?  When you base your beliefs on a magical deity that doesn't exist in our plane of existence, you can make it do whatever you want.  It's like a bad science fiction novel.

I really, really, really don't understand how anyone with a functioning brain can really believe in "God" unless they really have a fear of death.  That's the only explanation I can come up with.

/thread

[Rage Against the McKee]

Where was He on 9/11/01? 

Why would God care about 9/11? In the grand scheme of things it's completely insignificant.

[Dirty Sanchez]

If you were absolutely confident about your thought processes and beliefs, you wouldn't be getting so upset about someone putting a counter argument forward.

[Stevesie60]

I really, really, really don't understand how anyone with a functioning brain can really believe in "God" unless they really have a fear of death.  That's the only explanation I can come up with.

I said the same thing when I was an atheist. There are plenty of people who are smarter than anyone on this board (which is saying something) who believe in God, and there are plenty of people who are smarter than anyone on this board who do not believe in God.

The smartest person I know, a math professor at K-State, claims to be agnostic. We've talked about creationism vs. evolution a lot, and he always says "it is stupid to call either side stupid. There is plenty of evidence for both sides that cannot be disproven by the other side, and to not acknowledge that is ignorant."

I think there is enough evidence for both sides that people can choose to believe whatever they want and be able to justify it to themselves.

[Bookcat]

The religous cycle, in my example, can be summarized into a period of events.

As a kid I went to Sunday school and church with Mom and sis. Looking back, I never understood why I was going, just that it was the thing to do with my family.

The day I doubted Christianity (maybe sometime in middle, early high school) was when I realized that there are other religions in the World that have followers just as devout. The conflict of relgious interest is kept hidden as long as possible from the youth in most Christian fellowships. From that day I was convinced that religion was a human invention. Especially the Bible. (A talking snake? c'mon.)

lastly,
When Sirr Parker scored, that's when I knew there was no GOD. The end.

[Honus]

HIS Grace is infinite if YOU choose to accept IT.

[CNS]

So, Honus is PW, right?

Welcome, bro.

[Panjandrum]

If you were absolutely confident about your thought processes and beliefs, you wouldn't be getting so upset about someone putting a counter argument forward.

I'm not upset, and the watchmaker is not an argument.  It's just bullshit.

[Panjandrum]

I really, really, really don't understand how anyone with a functioning brain can really believe in "God" unless they really have a fear of death.  That's the only explanation I can come up with.

I said the same thing when I was an atheist. There are plenty of people who are smarter than anyone on this board (which is saying something) who believe in God, and there are plenty of people who are smarter than anyone on this board who do not believe in God.

The smartest person I know, a math professor at K-State, claims to be agnostic. We've talked about creationism vs. evolution a lot, and he always says "it is stupid to call either side stupid. There is plenty of evidence for both sides that cannot be disproven by the other side, and to not acknowledge that is ignorant."

I think there is enough evidence for both sides that people can choose to believe whatever they want and be able to justify it to themselves.

The only evidence for a God is the fact that we can't explain how the universe was created.

We continually get closer and closer to figuring out what happened billions and billions of years ago, how our universe works and behaves, and that's only going to continue as technology continues to advance and give us tools to see more and more.  Better telescopes let us see farther and farther into the past, and things like the LHSC will allow us to study matter in ways we couldn't have dreamed of years and years ago.

The problem is that no matter how far we go, or what new things we discover, we aren't able to see the big bang.  Our known laws of physics break down when we talk about gravitational singularities.  But to people who believe in "God", that's proof of his existence, when really, it's not proof that a God exists.  It just proves that our species is still learning and growing to understand the universe it lives in.

Humanity has learned so much in the last one-hundred years that it's quite amazing when you look at the entire scope of our existence.  Imagine what we'll learn in the next one-hundred.

It's my hope, that before I die, we live in a world that's essentially disproven God.  I doubt that I'll see it, but it would give me hope for our species if we can break from our ancient mysticism and actually start tapping into human potential.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

So, Honus is PW, right?

Welcome, bro.

PW would have used italics and color.

[the KHAN!]

If you were absolutely confident about your thought processes and beliefs, you wouldn't be getting so upset about someone putting a counter argument forward.

I'm not upset, and the watchmaker is not an argument.  It's just bullshit.

This proves it!