Holy War

[PoetWarrior]

Do unborn muslim babies go to heaven?

I'm trying to imagine what would make an unborn baby a Muslim.

ok, a day old baby born of a Muslim mother and father.

This is not something that can be known, we have no exact answer.

Also,  there is Christianity and everything else. Muslims, in a sense, do not exist. They might as well pray to celery, anything, it doesn't matter. So a person whose parents are muslims, is not a muslim, it's just a person who does not know Christ.

[PoetWarrior]

A hindu should dismiss all of Christianity or accept it all.

They do not share anything. They are not equally valid.

[pike]

A hindu should dismiss all of Christianity or accept it all.

They do not share anything. They are not equally valid.

So Ghandi is in hell? That sucks.

[KSU187]

Why would Hindu's study Jesus and believe Him to be an "Avatar" when He claims to be the only way to God (John 14:16)? Hindu's believe in the "way of works," which is salvation (escape) through good works (or adherence to Hindu teaching/scripture). Jesus teaches salvation through faith in Him and did not call for us to be legalistic.

Here is how I would interpret John 14.  (Hinduism has sooo many different sects and philosophies it is hard to distinguish between them, I consider myself a Hindu and a Christian, but most importantly, a Devotee of God).

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Believe in God, the all powerful creator, and His earthly manifestation as Jesus the man, who embodied the Cosmic Christ, the only begottoen manifestation of the Uncreated Creator.  The Christ (The All Powerful, All Loving Force), embodied as Jesus, is in us all.  We have to access it through prayer metiation, and devotion.

 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus is urging us to follow his path as a way-shower, being Divine in human flesh, he is encouraging his disciples to raise their conciousness and assures them that there will be a place for them in the astral realms to commune with God.

 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Here Thomas is like "wtf, ummm, I don't know the way" and Jesus drops the next verse on him, basically saying "Haven't you been watching me, haven't I taught you as my disciple?"

 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No one can reach moksha, liberation, "heaven" as you might put it, without uniting themselves with the Christ Spirit (again the only begotten manifestation of the Uncreated Creator)  Dropping egoic attachments, remaining devotional, moral, and communing with God, Jesus is using the example of His Way, Truth, and Life to tell his disciples they must not only believe in him, but become like him.  No man reaches liberation without uniting themselves to Christ, not a human manifestation of it.  He is speaking of Who He Is, not a belief in him.  The Blessed Son of God speaks extremely deeply (and the Book of St. John is perhaps the deepest), not in kindergarten-esque oversimplifications. 

 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Again saying, "If you would have been watching me and seeing the Divine Radience busting forth from within Me, connect with it, and then let it take over your heart, you will know God"

Apologies for not putting the words of Christ in bold, im on my phone.

[KSU187]

A hindu should dismiss all of Christianity or accept it all.

They do not share anything. They are not equally valid.

Your religion serves your ego, I serve God.

You say "I have the only Truth, Believe as I do"

I say "God is for everyone, he is the All Powerful, All Loving Force, He is Infinite and cannont be broken down to a simple formula"

You say I should dismiss all of Christianity,

I sadly wonder how many people you have caused that to happen to...

[PoetWarrior]

KSU187 just surpassed PoetWarrior as the crazy person in this thread... 

No offense, KSU187, but you're totally misguided, in every way. I believe your fellow hindu's would agree, if they cared even a little...


Again, you can't be hindu and Christian. It's impossible.

Nothing is more impossible. Christianity is against everything you're saying.

['taterblast]

so a college student is nationally embarrassed, a basketball team's hopes for an epic season are damaged, and a whole bunch of negative press is created, because of relgion. i believe this is a good example of why people are turned off from, and shy away from religion. a kid can't play the rest of the season because he had sex with his consenting girlfriend.

[PoetWarrior]

so a college student is nationally embarrassed, a basketball team's hopes for an epic season are damaged, and a whole bunch of negative press is created, because of relgion. i believe this is a good example of why people are turned off from, and shy away from religion. a kid can't play the rest of the season because he had sex with his consenting girlfriend.

It's basketball, dude, who cares?

['taterblast]

a bunch of people "care." i'm just saying this is an instance where religion doesn't look so good.

[PoetWarrior]

KSU187, the Bible details exactly what you are doing, numerous times...I suppose this doesn't dissuade you?

Act 20:
"29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31Therefore be alert..."

2 Corinthians 11:
"3But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. "

"13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."

2 Peter 2:
"1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."

[CNS]

 

If I read that right, 187 is the devil. 

 

[PoetWarrior]

a bunch of people "care." i'm just saying this is an instance where religion doesn't look so good.

Maybe the kid's act doesn't look so good?

Mormon's fall right in with my above post, but we agree that sex is for marriage.

Anyone, Christian or not, who's honest, should agree.

[PoetWarrior]

A hindu, who's need for a personal, infinite God, who communicates, was so great that they simply meld the Christian God into their own false beliefs.

Hinduism obviously wasn't enough...

[the KHAN!]

a bunch of people "care." i'm just saying this is an instance where religion doesn't look so good.

The whole of religion doesn't look good or Mormonism doesn't look good?

['taterblast]

both. people who don't really know much about anything will generalize it as "religion."

[pike]

KSU187, the Bible details exactly what you are doing, numerous times...I suppose this doesn't dissuade you?

Act 20:
"29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31Therefore be alert..."

The Bible foretold of the Junkyard Cats 

[KSU187]

KSU187 just surpassed PoetWarrior as the crazy person in this thread... 

No offense, KSU187, but you're totally misguided, in every way. I believe your fellow hindu's would agree, if they cared even a little...


Again, you can't be hindu and Christian. It's impossible.

Nothing is more impossible. Christianity is against everything you're saying.

Its Impossible, huh... Do you not read your own scripture?

For with God nothing shall be impossible. (Luke 1:37)

[KSU187]

A hindu, who's need for a personal, infinite God, who communicates, was so great that they simply meld the Christian God into their own false beliefs.

Hinduism obviously wasn't enough...

I am saddened by your ignorance of other faiths.. We don't have to "meld" anything to fit our "false beliefs." 

A hindu doesn't have a "need" for a personal, infinite God who communicates and thereby just uses the Christian god to fill that void.  We already have one, a Loving God who is both personal and impersonal. The Supreme Being, the Shepard of Souls, who is accessible through inductive processes. 

We must be Dvija, or born again.  The only thing is our term predates "born again christianity" by oh... 2000 years... 

But I'm sure your dogmatic teaching is the ONLY right one...

In the supreme irony, it was the religious who crucified the Master.. People who were SO sure their approach to God was correct and were threatened by the New Covenant..

[KSU187]

KSU187, the Bible details exactly what you are doing, numerous times...I suppose this doesn't dissuade you?

Act 20:
"29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31Therefore be alert..."

2 Corinthians 11:
"3But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. "

"13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."

2 Peter 2:
"1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."

  Maybe I am powered by Satan... 

"The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”

Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one."  (John 8:13-15)

The passages you quoted were written in a specific historical context, I suggest you study the history of your own religion before throwing them around to bolster an egoic assertion.. They are not to be thrown around as vitriol to someone who doesn't share your particular hermeneutic philosophy.

Heck, these verses could apply to the Pope, Joel Osteen, Billy Graham, T.D. Jakes, etc. (And christians have applied these verses to all of the above before). The point is, you can name anyone who disagrees with you and label them as blasphemers or heresies. 

"Fire gets covered by smoke, mirror by dust, embryo by a sac. And your self-knowledge is covered by your ego-driven desire." (Bhagvad Gita 3:38) 

In your case it is the desire to be "right" and have others share your beliefs.

[yoga-like_abana]

Thought on Lost and the smoke monster? Thanks in Advance!

[KSU187]

weird thread

[CNS]

Thought on Lost and the smoke monster? Thanks in Advance!

yes, please. 

[skycat]

I was raised as a Christian (Catholic), but I never enjoyed being one. I hated the authoritarianism of the religion, its texts and its hierarchy. I questioned its central tenets. I hated church. And yet I still believed in God, Heaven and Hell, because their existence was never questioned, they was just taken for granted. As a result, I was miserable, always afraid I would make God unhappy and end up in hell. Worse, I started having doubts about God's existence, which would definitely land me in hell if God did exist.

But the more I read and thought about it, the more I realized that God is just an unnecessary hypothesis. Science has filled in almost all the gaps in our knowledge that God filled before. Now the only real questions are, what caused the Big Bang, which created our universe? And what was there before the Big Bang, before our universe or even time (as we know it) existed? These are some pretty huge mysteries that science may never explain. But I do know that "God" as the explanation is pretty arbitrary and not very helpful. Christians insist that the universe can't come from nothing, it must have a creator, and God is the creator. When you point out that God would have to have a creator too, they say nuh-uhh, God has always existed outside of space and time. Well sorry, there's no evidence of this. There must have been something before and outside of the Big Bang, but I doubt it was an all-powerful, all-knowing deity. That just seems silly. Instead of explaining where everything came from it just adds one more thing to explain.

As for morality, some of the best countries on Earth are the most secular, like Japan and most of Western Europe. Some of the shittiest countries are the most fervently religious, like most of the Middle East. If morality is that which most reduces suffering, or leads to the least suffering, then some of the world's most moral places are also its least religious, and vice-versa.

Anyway, my life is much better now and I'm much happier without religion or belief in god. If you're religious and you're unhappy, doubtful and/or fearful, maybe you should honestly and thoroughly re-evaluate your beliefs. There are some good books and websites available to help you in this. I can recommend some if you like.

[ew2x4]

I was raised as a Christian (Catholic), but I never enjoyed being one. I hated the authoritarianism of the religion, its texts and its hierarchy. I questioned its central tenets. I hated church. And yet I still believed in God, Heaven and Hell, because their existence was never questioned, they was just taken for granted. As a result, I was miserable, always afraid I would make God unhappy and end up in hell. Worse, I started having doubts about God's existence, which would definitely land me in hell if God did exist.

But the more I read and thought about it, the more I realized that God is just an unnecessary hypothesis. Science has filled in almost all the gaps in our knowledge that God filled before. Now the only real questions are, what caused the Big Bang, which created our universe? And what was there before the Big Bang, before our universe or even time (as we know it) existed? These are some pretty huge mysteries that science may never explain. But I do know that "God" as the explanation is pretty arbitrary and not very helpful. Christians insist that the universe can't come from nothing, it must have a creator, and God is the creator. When you point out that God would have to have a creator too, they say nuh-uhh, God has always existed outside of space and time. Well sorry, there's no evidence of this. There must have been something before and outside of the Big Bang, but I doubt it was an all-powerful, all-knowing deity. That just seems silly. Instead of explaining where everything came from it just adds one more thing to explain.

As for morality, some of the best countries on Earth are the most secular, like Japan and most of Western Europe. Some of the shittiest countries are the most fervently religious, like most of the Middle East. If morality is that which most reduces suffering, or leads to the least suffering, then some of the world's most moral places are also its least religious, and vice-versa.

Anyway, my life is much better now and I'm much happier without religion or belief in god. If you're religious and you're unhappy, doubtful and/or fearful, maybe you should honestly and thoroughly re-evaluate your beliefs. There are some good books and websites available to help you in this. I can recommend some if you like.

I think I found out the main reason you felt this way.

[skycat]

I was raised as a Christian (Catholic), but I never enjoyed being one. I hated the authoritarianism of the religion, its texts and its hierarchy. I questioned its central tenets. I hated church. And yet I still believed in God, Heaven and Hell, because their existence was never questioned, they was just taken for granted. As a result, I was miserable, always afraid I would make God unhappy and end up in hell. Worse, I started having doubts about God's existence, which would definitely land me in hell if God did exist.

But the more I read and thought about it, the more I realized that God is just an unnecessary hypothesis. Science has filled in almost all the gaps in our knowledge that God filled before. Now the only real questions are, what caused the Big Bang, which created our universe? And what was there before the Big Bang, before our universe or even time (as we know it) existed? These are some pretty huge mysteries that science may never explain. But I do know that "God" as the explanation is pretty arbitrary and not very helpful. Christians insist that the universe can't come from nothing, it must have a creator, and God is the creator. When you point out that God would have to have a creator too, they say nuh-uhh, God has always existed outside of space and time. Well sorry, there's no evidence of this. There must have been something before and outside of the Big Bang, but I doubt it was an all-powerful, all-knowing deity. That just seems silly. Instead of explaining where everything came from it just adds one more thing to explain.

As for morality, some of the best countries on Earth are the most secular, like Japan and most of Western Europe. Some of the shittiest countries are the most fervently religious, like most of the Middle East. If morality is that which most reduces suffering, or leads to the least suffering, then some of the world's most moral places are also its least religious, and vice-versa.

Anyway, my life is much better now and I'm much happier without religion or belief in god. If you're religious and you're unhappy, doubtful and/or fearful, maybe you should honestly and thoroughly re-evaluate your beliefs. There are some good books and websites available to help you in this. I can recommend some if you like.

I think I found out the main reason you felt this way.

Nope. I got to college and discovered that Protestantism is much worse. You don't see Catholics trying to stick religion in your face all the time, like the Evangelical Protestant groups do. Then when you look into their beliefs on morality, culture and science, it's just much, much rough ridin' worse. The Catholic Church is preferable. Plus a lot of Catholics in the U.S. have much more liberal/progressive views than the Vatican. That said, I wouldn't go back. It's still false and authoritarian. Same for the Mainline Protestant denominations, even if some of the congregations are more progressive.