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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: nicname on November 24, 2010, 12:19:29 AM
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Looking back on the game the thing that really stood out to me was Duke's depth and talent in the backcourt. It is going to be asking a lot for Jake to guard the opponents top guard every night and run the team as well. Fortunately, there are very few (read: zero) teams with a backcourt like Duke. Gonzaga had good guards, and so did VT and we were fine against them.
Even so, we really need to have either Spradling or Martavious step up and develope into a true B12 pg. We will struggle with Jake leading the point, at least against the elite teams. Sprads was exposed a bit tonight, but I thought that Martavious played pretty well on both ends. Obviously it helps to hit shots, and going 3-17 from deep doesn't bode well against any team, but against the better teams we will need to create more openings for our guys to hit open looks from deep. Duke did a great job of not allowing Jake or Spradling any room to shoot. McGruder had some wonderful open looks but failed to convert. This goes back to the PG thing, someone needs to be the lead guard so Jake can run off screens and get open or we will struggle.
I also think that JYCing (fouls, not Orebs etc) up a game against a team like Duke will usually prove ineffective. The freethrow +/- will just be too great to overcome. The Devils outscored KSU by 13 points from the line and they won the game by 14. Still, I thought the frontcourt players were very effective against Duke. CK proved he is one of the best (though he did seem to have trouble holding onto the ball) and Jamar was resilient as well. Asprilla, was pretty much Colon II tonight. We were 2 to 1 on the offensive boards and had an Oreb% of 39%, that is really good against a good Duke front court. We out rebounded the Devils 36-29 as well.
We also cannot turn the ball over like we did tonight. Again, I think this had just as much to do with Duke's talented guards as our guys making poor plays. Martavious was a bright spot here and I am pleased to see his effort against top competition. Though it really has little to do with his ability, I think that Cats will struggle if Russell is starting and gets mig minutes along side Jake. Either Spradling or MArtavious must take over as the PG for KSU to be successful.
Also, I don't thing it was an effort thing, or a big head thing, I think Irving is just better than Jake. He is our guy but Irving would be in the NBA right now if he were allowed. I must be a truly humbling experience for Jake and I'm interested in his comments on the subject.
Feel free to add to the discussion.
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a loss like this does nothing but re-affirm the shitty and non-shitty posters.
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The CHOF made itself into a joke the day Dicky V was inducted?
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a loss like this does nothing but re-affirm the shitty and non-shitty posters.
It's posts like this that make me feel very :ohno: about myself.
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a loss like this does nothing but re-affirm the shitty and non-shitty posters.
It's posts like this that make me feel very :ohno: about myself.
You should be....
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So what did this game tell us?
Duke >>> KSU.
Pullen is not an AA.
The 'Cats will pee down their collective leg in big games.
:ck:
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He is our guy but Irving would be in the NBA right now if he were allowed. I must be a truly humbling experience for Jake and I'm interested in his comments on the subject.
Give me you average player from the rec, put him in front of the "NBA talent" and tell him if he doesn't stay between him and the basket you'll remove his balls...
Irving would have had half his points, and maybe one or two additional assists, and one or two more turnovers. Bad defensive strategy to body up Usain freaking Bolt.
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Irving needs more minutes.
Asprilla needs less.
McGruder played like dogshit and had a decent stat line with the exception of the horrible shooting.
Trying to decide if I like a Kelly/Samuels combo coming off of the bench at the under four timeout to shield them from early BS fouls and get more minutes out of them as a whole.
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we aren't "big time." :bawl:
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Asprilla has some weird can't-finish-at-the-rim syndrome.
Sometimes, it's wise to play off someone, at least until that someone proves he can nail an outside shot.
Long-limbed defenders contesting early threes kind of threw us off for the night
This summer's Irving haters were fools.
Samuels seems to have found his fire
Frank needs metal court boards.
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pullen is way overrated. Kelly is the most talented player on the team.
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pullen is way overrated. Kelly is the most talented player on the team.
He may be a bit overrated, but I think he was improperly utilized tonight.
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pullen is way overrated. Kelly is the most talented player on the team.
He may be a bit overrated, but I think he was improperly utilized tonight.
ok
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Curtis Kelly is back.
Jake will not perform that poorly the rest of the year.
Martavious Irving needs to play a little more. He has had a consistent jump shot and really hasn't made a lot of mistakes.
Season is young. Still a lot of time for our team to progress and be ready for conference play.
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Concur. Jake got his crap handed to him defensively and offensively. It seemed like he was a step slow tonight, but that's probably because Irving is that fast. Duke absolutely blanketed him, never giving him the light of day. He forced a lot of bad shots up, and it shows on the stat sheet. After this game and the KU games last year, it seems apparent that against guards who are elite athletes, Jake needs to play off the ball to get good looks. The few open looks he did get tonight came off of screens. For the most part though Jake was a huge liability in this game, which should never happen to a senior all american. It seems like he never drives the ball or draws fouls like he used to, always settling for the deep or contested 3 these days.
Spradling was exposed against these elite athletic guards as well.
Rodney wasn't sinking the shots he normally makes, but was getting us a lot of extra possessions on the boards.
I was satisfied with Jamar's play. He's getting back into form, went aggressively to the basket, and played decent defense on Singler for a while.
Kelly had a hard time securing the ball, but when he did have a good hold on it he was scoring well. His defense was decent too.
Nick was executing well offensively, and getting into passing lanes defensively, but overall his defense was mediocre - he had some bad fouls.
Overall I'd like to see our halfcourt offense run more through Curtis and Jamar than our guards jacking up long or contested 3's. Those quick treys work for us in transition and when a guard is open, but I like our chances of scoring much more when we get Curtis and Jamar going aggressively to the basket and drawing fouls. If the defense collapses on them, kick it back out to whichever guard is left open.
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kelly's back. irving (k.) is one rough ridin' amazing player.
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Kelly having a great offensive game is probably the best thing outta the night. If he ever learns to hold on to the damn ball, he'll be in great shape. This loss is a good thing imo.
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this is how we're going to look when we play kansas.
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Wow, team Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) blowing this game out of proportion. We didn't take good shots, didn't shoot well from the stripe, made a lot of dumbass turnovers. Now, granted a lot of that was Duke playing great defense, but we don't play a game that poorly for the rest of the season.
As for Russel, he played a pretty good offensive game, but I felt bad for the guy. Pullen kept getting beat to the basket by (insert any Duke guard here) and Russel got 3 or 4 of his fouls trying to help out.
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Don't think we learned much this early. A few things we already knew were confirmed. Pullen is a disaster on both sides of the ball when he is off, this team probably won't win without transition baskets, Jamar seems to be playing better, but still refuses to take it strong, Rodney missing shots = not good, and Wally should be taken out right after he secures the opening tip because that is pretty much all he is good for. :ksu:
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this is how we're going to look when we play kansas.
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I learned that Duke is pretty darn good. The Cats aren't as good as Duke. Not much else to take from it.
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I learned that Duke will proably win a National Championship and we won't.
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I learned if 2 of your best back court players have really bad games offensively then its going to be really tough to win. Did Duke cause a lot of Jake and Rodney's problems? Yes, but they also just missed several shots they usually make.
Also, K had a better plan than Frank and his players executed better. It happens, but I'm certain we'll have a different plan if we met them again.
Duke is the best team in the country, we are Top 10 and can still be a Final 4 team.
Good to see Martavious, Samuels, and Kelly have solid games.
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I think we saw the talent ceiling on the team last night. We can still be a very good team, but it will take an amazing effort to be in the same class as the Duke-type teams this year. I don't think its a huge surprise that we will have to play out of our minds to beat a team like that.
This year's squad still has a fantastic chance to be better than last year.
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I think we saw the talent ceiling on the team last night. We can still be a very good team, but it will take an amazing effort to be in the same class as the Duke-type teams this year. I don't think its a huge surprise that we will have to play out of our minds to beat a team like that.
This year's squad still has a fantastic chance to be better than last year.
Yeah. It's easy to forget we lost in similar fashion to an NIT team almost exactly a year ago.
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I learned that until we learn to run better offensive sets, we won't be beating really good and disciplined teams. Duke is really disciplined in their half court game and that' why their buckets looked so much easier than ours. Meanwhile, we turn the ball over when we have to play a half court game and don't get one easy shot.
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I think we saw the talent ceiling on the team last night. We can still be a very good team, but it will take an amazing effort to be in the same class as the Duke-type teams this year. I don't think its a huge surprise that we will have to play out of our minds to beat a team like that.
This year's squad still has a fantastic chance to be better than last year.
Yeah. It's easy to forget we lost in similar fashion to an NIT team almost exactly a year ago.
Exactly. Last we we got run by Ole Miss. This year it was Duke.
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I learned that until we learn to run better offensive sets, we won't be beating really good and disciplined teams. Duke is really disciplined in their half court game and that' why their buckets looked so much easier than ours. Meanwhile, we turn the ball over when we have to play a half court game and don't get one easy shot.
They don't run better "sets" - they have three guys that can create their own shot off the dribble when the shot clock gets under 15. We have one. That's huge.
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Does anybody think we would have played better with 2 or 3 days of rest instead of 1? I think the 3pt% would have been much better. I haven't watched Duke enough this year to know how much better they would have played.
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Frank got out-coached
Freddy needs less minutes
Perhaps we should throw DPete in and see what he's got????? I mean, 95 amirite?
Selby is going to cac on Jake's beard, twice.
Singler is a phag
Freddy needs less minutes
I was too drunk to remember anything else.
I think the loss was probably a good thing, for the fans, and the team.
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We will lose one game this year where we make more baskets than the other team.
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The dribbling 5 count is a myth.
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We need to dunk the ball more. Duke had roughly 7 dunks. KSU had 0. Duke wins by roughly 14 points. That's the difference in the game IMO.
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This thread is full of fail.
Two nights ago we hit too many threes, last night we did not hit enough.
Jake cannot be point guard (J-mart's talking point about his handles has held up like the pyramids) and will probably be more denis clemente re: future job prospects than cartier martin.
Tay did look better than the average bear.
Frank gave Sprads a good yell which means he thinks he might be worth a crap.
Freddy=Freddy
CK killed it and he needed to.
Jamar=Jamar
Imo, Gruds is our juniest junk yard cat, which means his shot is going to be frustrating at times.
As has been said we miss Denis, a lot. Losing the transition game as badly as we did hurt and I don't think we have anything to replace that besides better 3pt shooting and post play. We saw what happened when the 3pt'rs weren't there.
Go Meltdown in some thread called "Smelly Loser Morons Meltdown Thread"
Zacker/azcat just go head out back already.
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I learned that until we learn to run better offensive sets, we won't be beating really good and disciplined teams. Duke is really disciplined in their half court game and that' why their buckets looked so much easier than ours. Meanwhile, we turn the ball over when we have to play a half court game and don't get one easy shot.
They don't run better "sets" - they have three guys that can create their own shot off the dribble when the shot clock gets under 15. We have one. That's huge.
Looked like it to me. Obviously they have those guys that can create off the dribble, but their spacing and ball movement was amazing as well. I really don't think you can argue that their half-court game wasn't better than ours.
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Our transition defense needs A LOT of improvement. fortunately this is something that should be fairly easy to improve upon.
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this is how we're going to look when we play kansas.
Three seasons ago, I thought this after we lost to George Mason. But we still beat uk and had a good run in the con. Chill a little, dude.
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Kansas is not as good or as disciplined as Duke. We turn the ball over less against Kansas and we force them into more turnovers. We'll get open looks against Kansas, and our frontcourt is better/more deep than theirs.
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I learned that until we learn to run better offensive sets, we won't be beating really good and disciplined teams. Duke is really disciplined in their half court game and that' why their buckets looked so much easier than ours. Meanwhile, we turn the ball over when we have to play a half court game and don't get one easy shot.
They don't run better "sets" - they have three guys that can create their own shot off the dribble when the shot clock gets under 15. We have one. That's huge.
Looked like it to me. Obviously they have those guys that can create off the dribble, but their spacing and ball movement was amazing as well. I really don't think you can argue that their half-court game wasn't better than ours.
Everything you said is correct, but it's 95% based on talent, not "sets" or goddam "plays".
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I learned that until we learn to run better offensive sets, we won't be beating really good and disciplined teams. Duke is really disciplined in their half court game and that' why their buckets looked so much easier than ours. Meanwhile, we turn the ball over when we have to play a half court game and don't get one easy shot.
They don't run better "sets" - they have three guys that can create their own shot off the dribble when the shot clock gets under 15. We have one. That's huge.
Looked like it to me. Obviously they have those guys that can create off the dribble, but their spacing and ball movement was amazing as well. I really don't think you can argue that their half-court game wasn't better than ours.
Everything you said is correct, but it's 95% based on talent, not "sets" or goddam "plays".
Ok
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I learned that until we learn to run better offensive sets, we won't be beating really good and disciplined teams. Duke is really disciplined in their half court game and that' why their buckets looked so much easier than ours. Meanwhile, we turn the ball over when we have to play a half court game and don't get one easy shot.
They don't run better "sets" - they have three guys that can create their own shot off the dribble when the shot clock gets under 15. We have one. That's huge.
Looked like it to me. Obviously they have those guys that can create off the dribble, but their spacing and ball movement was amazing as well. I really don't think you can argue that their half-court game wasn't better than ours.
Like 90% of Dooks points came in transition or at the FT stripe. That's the JYC's MO....and they stole from us :cry:
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JYC MO is NOT transition. That is Denis Boricua Especial.
He is gone, and the puerto rican flag in Wichita Pak-n HQ is at half mast.
You dumbasses never loved Denis and now you don't even understand what's happening.
Yeah we really miss Sutton. Morons.
Yeah, Jake is terrible. Morons.
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You dumbasses never loved Denis and now you don't even understand what's happening.
phog was way ahead of the curve on us missing Denis. HBBIQ'ers knew we'd miss him.
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K-State is not a transition scoring team :facepalm:
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Our game needs to shift without Denis. We miss him because we're still trying to play like we have him. We are just bad in transition on both sides of the ball.
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This thread is full of fail.
Two nights ago we hit too many threes, last night we did not hit enough.
Jake cannot be point guard (J-mart's talking point about his handles has held up like the pyramids) and will probably be more denis clemente re: future job prospects than cartier martin.
Tay did look better than the average bear.
Frank gave Sprads a good yell which means he thinks he might be worth a crap. he got to play in front of his idol and buckled. plus, obviously, that was his first time playing against that much speed athleticism.
Freddy=Freddy i love how the first time he threw the behind back this year everyone thought he was gonna be a baller, and now it turns out that's just his weird skill he's worked on since he was in 5th grade.
CK killed it and he needed to. minus some really soft t/o's i thought he was absolutely stellar. his shots looked confident and i could actually tell they had a good chance of going in from the time he released the ball. :love:
Jamar=Jamar
Imo, Gruds is our juniest junk yard cat, which means his shot is going to be frustrating at times. definitely agree w/ this
As has been said we miss Denis, a lot. Losing the transition game as badly as we did hurt and I don't think we have anything to replace that besides better 3pt shooting and post play. We saw what happened when the 3pt'rs weren't there.
Go Meltdown in some thread called "Smelly Loser Morons Meltdown Thread"
Zacker/azcat just go head out back already.
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You dumbasses never loved Denis and now you don't even understand what's happening.
phog was way ahead of the curve on us missing Denis. HBBIQ'ers knew we'd miss him.
I'm not saying we don't miss Denis, because we do, but he would not have been the difference between a win and a loss last night.
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I learned that until we learn to run better offensive sets, we won't be beating really good and disciplined teams. Duke is really disciplined in their half court game and that' why their buckets looked so much easier than ours. Meanwhile, we turn the ball over when we have to play a half court game and don't get one easy shot.
They don't run better "sets" - they have three guys that can create their own shot off the dribble when the shot clock gets under 15. We have one. That's huge.
Looked like it to me. Obviously they have those guys that can create off the dribble, but their spacing and ball movement was amazing as well. I really don't think you can argue that their half-court game wasn't better than ours.
Everything you said is correct, but it's 95% based on talent, not "sets" or goddam "plays".
Having a one-and-done point guard makes you look like you run a really nice offense.
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You dumbasses never loved Denis and now you don't even understand what's happening.
phog was way ahead of the curve on us missing Denis. HBBIQ'ers knew we'd miss him.
I'm not saying we don't miss Denis, because we do, but he would not have been the difference between a win and a loss last night.
It would have helped to have a point out there who could match K. Irving's speed.
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K did a really good job with the gameplan. He spread our defense waaaaay out, including bringing Asprilla all the way out to the 3 point line on several occasions. Then their guard drives right by ours to the hoop, and everyone is out of position to help on defense. It either ends in a foul or an easy bucket. I remember this happening a lot in the first half and we never adjusted.
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Hey freak, when you hold up your combo fan I can't see your 'I see you' because it is rough ridin' weak. Go over to the football board until after the bowl season is over and just read this board.
I hate our fanbase sometimes. Wait, I hate our fanbase whenever I am confronted with their stupidity. The rest of the time I would be hating the fanbase, but I'm just lying to myself or playing dumb. Like how people deal with AIDS in Africa.
Except I live in Africa.
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Hey freak, when you hold up your combo fan I can't see your 'I see you' because it is effing weak. Go over to the football board until after the bowl season is over and just read this board.
I hate our fanbase sometimes. Wait, I hate our fanbase whenever I am confronted with their stupidity. The rest of the time I would be hating the fanbase, but I'm just lying to myself or playing dumb. Like how people deal with AIDS in Africa.
Except I live in Africa.
:surprised:
kk just ft hays'd freak.
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I was actually very happy to see a fire lit up under Jamar's ass last night at various points in the game. He stood up for his teammates at least two times and got in the face of a Dukie, and then looked to be playing pissed off and with the intensity we need him to. We need him to get to the basket more and use his athleticism.
My biggest gripe is how our bigs never get the ball and try to face the basket. We gotta do a better job of that.
Also, when Duke or any team with a quick guard spreads their players out around the perimeter and then sets high screens with their big men, they'll either score or get to the line every time. Kelly and especially Asprilla aren't quick enough to play that far out from the basket and can't get back in time to defend properly. I'm sure they'll get better but last night it was very bad.
Russel and Irving seem to do well hitting midrange jumpshots which was great.
Asprilla can't line up at center against those kind of big men. They were able to deflect a lot of his shots and passes. I understand JHR is skinny as crap but I would have rather seen him down low with his length rather than Freddy. Plus, I think he would be able to pull their big men out better than Asprilla.
Thats it.
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sometimes forget talking about 'gameplans' is forbidden on goEMAW.com. luckily, i have katkid here to remind me.
mostly terrible post though, imo.
:bball:
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I think we saw the talent ceiling on the team last night. We can still be a very good team, but it will take an amazing effort to be in the same class as the Duke-type teams this year. I don't think its a huge surprise that we will have to play out of our minds to beat a team like that.
This year's squad still has a fantastic chance to be better than last year.
Yeah. It's easy to forget we lost in similar fashion to an NIT team almost exactly a year ago.
Don’t we look like this in all of our losses? (I’m only going back to last year; Frank’s first two years were anomalies in talent). When we can’t stay in front of the other team’s guard(s), we’re f’d. We aren’t as talented as Duke in our backcourt, and we probably won’t be against teams of this caliber KU’s backcourt with Selby will be better than ours. So if we want to win the league and/or do actual damage in March, Frank either needs to come up with something or just hope that we play out of our ass.
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What pleased me last night and the last few games is that Russell (note two LLs) and Irving (must look up who the posters were last summer who said he would suck so that I can dismiss them as retards) can get to medium range jumpers and hit them. We actually do have a number of players who can make their own shots.
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I think we saw the talent ceiling on the team last night. We can still be a very good team, but it will take an amazing effort to be in the same class as the Duke-type teams this year. I don't think its a huge surprise that we will have to play out of our minds to beat a team like that.
This year's squad still has a fantastic chance to be better than last year.
Yeah. It's easy to forget we lost in similar fashion to an NIT team almost exactly a year ago.
Don’t we look like this in all of our losses? (I’m only going back to last year; Frank’s first two years were anomalies in talent). When we can’t stay in front of the other team’s guard(s), we’re f’d. We aren’t as talented as Duke in our backcourt, and we probably won’t be against teams of this caliber KU’s backcourt with Selby will be better than ours. So if we want to win the league and/or do actual damage in March, Frank either needs to come up with something or just hope that we play out of our ass.
I was thinking purely in terms of point spread. :dunno:
But no, I don't think "staying in front of guards" is a common problem in KSU losses over the last two seasons.
Also, eff mid-range jumpers.
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Yeah, because scoring points sucks
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Yeah, because scoring points sucks
There is not a more inefficient way to score points than midrange jumpers, jackass.
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You dumbasses never loved Denis and now you don't even understand what's happening.
phog was way ahead of the curve on us missing Denis. HBBIQ'ers knew we'd miss him.
We all knew in our heart of hearts that we would miss him. We just wouldn't admit it out in the open.
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I think we saw the talent ceiling on the team last night. We can still be a very good team, but it will take an amazing effort to be in the same class as the Duke-type teams this year. I don't think its a huge surprise that we will have to play out of our minds to beat a team like that.
This year's squad still has a fantastic chance to be better than last year.
Yeah. It's easy to forget we lost in similar fashion to an NIT team almost exactly a year ago.
Don’t we look like this in all of our losses? (I’m only going back to last year; Frank’s first two years were anomalies in talent). When we can’t stay in front of the other team’s guard(s), we’re f’d. We aren’t as talented as Duke in our backcourt, and we probably won’t be against teams of this caliber KU’s backcourt with Selby will be better than ours. So if we want to win the league and/or do actual damage in March, Frank either needs to come up with something or just hope that we play out of our ass.
I was thinking purely in terms of point spread. :dunno:
But no, I don't think "staying in front of guards" is a common problem in KSU losses over the last two seasons.
Also, eff mid-range jumpers.
Ole Miss...ISU....KU....OSU
all were directly related to our guards not being able to defend the other team's guard(s). it may not have been the guard that went crazy, but it related to the guard kicking it to someone who did.
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OSU was about James Anderson and not having a big that could defend Muonelo.
The losses to KU weren't really about defending guards.
Didn't watch ISU, so don't care.
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Yeah, because scoring points sucks
There is not a more inefficient way to score points than midrange jumpers, jackass.
So let's just do threes and layups. That's one way to stretch the defense.
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OSU was about James Anderson and not having a big that could defend Muonelo.
The losses to KU weren't really about defending guards.
Didn't watch ISU, so don't care.
james is effectively a guard. sherron owned us in the bram. we couldn't stop that freaking garret kid. ole miss's guards destroyed us.
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OSU was about James Anderson and not having a big that could defend Muonelo.
The losses to KU weren't really about defending guards.
Didn't watch ISU, so don't care.
james is effectively a guard. sherron owned us in the bram. we couldn't stop that freaking garret kid. ole miss's guards destroyed us.
i wonder how many times a college basketball team loses a game and a guard for the winning team played really well. i'm guessing it's quite a bit.
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OSU was about James Anderson and not having a big that could defend Muonelo.
The losses to KU weren't really about defending guards.
Didn't watch ISU, so don't care.
james is effectively a guard. sherron owned us in the bram. we couldn't stop that freaking garret kid. ole miss's guards destroyed us.
i wonder how many times a college basketball team loses a game and a guard for the winning team played really well. i'm guessing it's quite a bit.
yeah, I wasn't making an earth shattering observation. it's just that in those situations when our guards are continually getting beat, we seem to just stay with playing aggressive when it isn't working.
I’m not using capel as an example of a good coach, but I’ll use his 1-3-1 he put on us in the bram two years ago as an example of a good coaching move. We were destroying them with guard penetration, kickouts, etc. So he switched it up and we couldn’t respond. I’m not asking for a zone every time we begin to have difficulties guarding the guards, I’m just wanting to see something different thrown at them.
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Honest question...will we see anyone with as much talent as duke ever again this year outside the tournament?
Irving, Plumlee, Smith, and Singler all get drafted next year right?
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There is not a more inefficient way to score points than midrange jumpers, jackass.
This hurts, coming from you.
Duke's easily better than they were a year ago.
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Honest question...will we see anyone with as much talent as duke ever again this year outside the tournament?
Irving, Plumlee, Smith, and Singler all get drafted next year right?
not a chance. this is the best team we have played/will play in years.
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Before anyone get's too crazed on Denis, he couldn't defend for crap last year against good speed or not. So, tell me exactly how he would have dealt with the super frosh?
He was all about transition and offensive speed. Which would be nice to have. But let's not crown him the king of PG's.
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Before anyone get's too crazed on Denis, he couldn't defend for crap last year against good speed or not. So, tell me exactly how he would have dealt with the super frosh?
He was all about transition and offensive speed. Which would be nice to have. But let's not crown him the king of PG's.
First of all, we could have used the offensive dimensions he brings more than the defense. Second of all he would have slapped Irving in the back of the head, weakening him. Third of all the word geek mean someone who bites the heads off of live animals in the circus so your username means you eat cat heads. That is gross.
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what did people expect to happen? Jake going 1-12 is frustrating, but Duke is just better. They are the standard for college basketball right now. No shame in how we lost.
if Rod/Jake don't have horrible shooting nights, we're in it, with the best team in America, and we turned it over constantly.
We're good, they're way better. No big surprise.
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MichiCat is tearing this thread up.
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Honest question...will we see anyone with as much talent as duke ever again this year outside the tournament?
Irving, Plumlee, Smith, and Singler all get drafted next year right?
not a chance. this is the best team we have played/will play in years.
This is the best Duke team since 2000-2001, and they're better than the team that won the tournament last year.
This is the caliber of Duke team that can be mentioned in the same breath as 91-92, 98-99, and 00-01. And those were three of the greatest teams of all time.
I was mad last night because I wanted to win. But, really, losing by 16 after playing like complete crap to what could become one of the best Duke teams of all-time, I'm actually feeling pretty good about.
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Kansas is not as good or as disciplined as Duke. We turn the ball over less against Kansas and we force them into more turnovers. We'll get open looks against Kansas, and our frontcourt is better/more deep than theirs.
:facepalm:
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Kansas is not as good or as disciplined as Duke. We turn the ball over less against Kansas and we force them into more turnovers. We'll get open looks against Kansas, and our frontcourt is better/more deep than theirs.
:unfacepalm:
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Kansas is not as good or as disciplined as Duke. We turn the ball over less against Kansas and we force them into more turnovers. We'll get open looks against Kansas, and our frontcourt is better/more deep than theirs.
:unfacepalm:
:lol:
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lollers at Kansas fans thinking their team =s Duke.
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Some good (and bad) points in this thread. I've got to chime in with a bit now that I've got some time to do so.
The first thing this game told me is that we way underestimated Irving. I don't believe we thought he'd be able to do the things he did and finish consistently. We knew our pressure was a) going to give up back-doors and b) give up drives b/c it always does, but it also forces teams to throw the ball out of bounds at times and generally get very frustrated offensively; see VaTech and Gonzaga. We had a solid plan to limit Singer as much as we could and make someone else beat us, and once Irving and to a lesser extent Smith started getting by us, we had no answer. I don't believe zacker (I believe) was way off base in suggesting a zone, but that hasn't been Frank's MO, so he probably wasn't comfortable doing that. Plus Duke is probably better than anyone else at running offense with the floor spread as much as they did last night, that is something we probably won't see from anyone else really.
Pullen/McGruds is the new Pullen/Denis as far as offense goes. The play of Kelly/Samuels was nice and necessary to play at a really high level, but Frank's teams still will need to have more from the lead guards. Irving's production was nice and he's played well this year, but McGruds is showing the most ability to step in to make up for Denis IMHO. Granted, he's a much, much different player; I'm solely talking scoring punch here, and its clear we need him to be the 12-15 point guy opposite Pullen for this team to be one of the best in the country and contend for the Big 12.
Pullen's frustrations came first from the defensive end IMHO. You could see the body language start after the 4th or 5th time he got run by Irving. I wasn't worried, b/c its not uncommon for Pullen to have slow starts scoring and even defensively, and I really thought after he finally hit a shot he would be good to go, but the frustration lasted the entire game. The other thing that usually gets Pullen going is a run out with a lay up and FT, but he couldn't get that either. Once he started forcing things (and failing) his frustration only grew leading to the silly TOs. McGruds not stepping up when he had some very nice looks while this happened only compounded our problems.
Okay, I've got to go there. FT% matters. Before you get worked up, I'm only talking about making it to Martin team expectations; 65-68%. Do that, and his system is fine, but we can't live with 50% and expect it not to cost us in big games. Overall, our FT rate is still fine, not great, but it will get better. And our defensive FT rate is bad, but we have played good teams with good guards. Irving,
We've got plenty of guys that will get better, namely Sprads and Asprilla. Sprads got introduced to real speed, but I think once he settled in he played okay. Not great, but good enough, it was just his tough start (which was when Duke went on their initial run) really was costly. And I can see that Asprilla does get it and can be an effective offensive player, he's just got to get more comfortable here. With his experience, I think he equates much more adjustment-wise to a JUCO transfer b/c not only did he not play top notch competition in games, he also didn't see much in practice, unlike Kelly for example. And those two need to get much better for this team to be one of the best in the country and win the league, which I think is still the expectations.
Overall it was a frustrating game b/c we simply couldn't make the run to get it to a 2-3 possession game. Ugly TOs and missed shots were consistent and defensive pressure leading to stops wasn't. We were hoping to be good enough to knock off #1, but we weren't. But in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't change anything for this season. We're still more than capable of winning this league and being a Final 4 team. Granted, it will take adjustments and improvements based on the problems we had, but all those seem doable to me. The fact that we've already pretty much destroyed two likely tournament teams should give us some confidence that we're still a pretty darn good team, in spite of at times looking silly against Duke.
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I learned if 2 of your best back court players have really bad games offensively then its going to be really tough to win. Did Duke cause a lot of Jake and Rodney's problems? Yes, but they also just missed several shots they usually make.
mcgruder, yes. pullen, no. duke did an outstanding job of extending on pullen regardless of how far out he was, or if he was coming off a ball screen, an off ball screen or off the dribble. even on recovery from a drive or garbage, they'd have someone running at him with length that clearly bothered him. he had 2, maybe 3, decent looks, and he hit 1 of those.
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I learned if 2 of your best back court players have really bad games offensively then its going to be really tough to win. Did Duke cause a lot of Jake and Rodney's problems? Yes, but they also just missed several shots they usually make.
mcgruder, yes. pullen, no. duke did an outstanding job of extending on pullen regardless of how far out he was, or if he was coming off a ball screen, an off ball screen or off the dribble. even on recovery from a drive or garbage, they'd have someone running at him with length that clearly bothered him. he had 2, maybe 3, decent looks, and he hit 1 of those.
I don't disagree with this, most of Pullen's shots were contested. But he usually hits some of those even when he's on. McGruds had many good looks that he missed though.
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I like how after the duke win ESPN is talking about Coach K being the best coach on the planet :emawkid:
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Yeah. It's easy to forget we lost in similar fashion to an NIT team almost exactly a year ago.
this team is well ahead of last year's team at the same time.
it's a very different team, though, and perhaps one that may not play to what we think martin wants to do as well. but, we'll see. for all of martin's rhetoric, he played pretty different the beasley year. he may be more adaptable than he likes to talk.
and, of course, the defense is going to improve, even with this personnel. there aren't many guards that are going to get by pullen with the ease that irving (k.) did. and when guards do get by, the help d by january isn't going to look anything like it did last night. if the staff can get a team with fred brown and clemente pressuring outside with kent, colon and anderson stepping in on help to play like a top 50 defense, they can get this group to play light years better than they showed last night.
i like irving (m.) this year, which i'm very surprised at. he still can't finish for crap. but he can hit open 3s, and he can take a couple of dribbles and elevate if someone is running at him. that's enough to be a decent big 12 guard.
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Great thread boys, some people :flush: it up, but overall a very nice discussion.
Fan, you said you believe that we will need Rod to be our Denis for this season, scoring wise. Do you not also believe that we will need Sprads and Irving to step up and takeover most of the PG minutes?
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I don't disagree with this, most of Pullen's shots were contested. But he usually hits some of those even when he's on. McGruds had many good looks that he missed though.
yeah. but i think that pullen was unused to having guys close on him with the speed and length that duke had. he'd think he'd have time to shoot and then end up releasing higher than he planned cause there'd be someone there contesting.
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Great thread boys, some people :flush: it up, but overall a very nice discussion.
Fan, you said you believe that we will need Rod to be our Denis for this season, scoring wise. Do you not also believe that we will need Sprads and Irving to step up and takeover most of the PG minutes?
Yes, it will be much better for this team if Sprads/Irving can get consistent minutes at the Pcombo with Jake at the Scombo. I think they can, last night was a great learning experience for Spradling and Irving was more than solid.
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Yeah. It's easy to forget we lost in similar fashion to an NIT team almost exactly a year ago.
this team is well ahead of last year's team at the same time.
it's a very different team, though, and perhaps one that may not play to what we think martin want to do as well. but, we'll see. for all of martin's rhetoric, he played pretty different the beasley year. he may be more adaptable than he likes to talk.
and, of course, the defense is going to improve, even with this personnel. there aren't many guards that are going to get by pullen with the ease that irving (m.) did. and when guards do get by, the help d by january isn't going to look anything like it did last night. if the staff can get a team with fred brown and clemente pressuring outside with kent, colon and anderson stepping in on help to play like a top 50 defense, they can get this group to play light years better than they showed last night.
Regarding the help D situation. Frank likes to pressure the ball and deny passing lanes. Huggs did as well, but when you have teams that like to bring their bigs outside to free up space wouldn't it be wiser for the bigs to sag back while the guards and wings still apply pressure on the outside? Nothing irked me more than to see Jason Bennett out defending some post 20 feet from the rim rendering completely useless. It always seemed natural to have a safety valve if the initial pressure defense was breached.
i like irving (m.) this year, which i'm very surprised at. he still can't finish for crap. but he can hit open 3s, and he can take a couple of dribbles and elevate if someone is running at him. that's enough to be a decent big 12 guard.
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spradling was better than duke's dca freshman pg.
:emawkid:
take that, curtis.
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I like when _fan explains why I'm not that upset.
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_Fan is right about the free throws. For us to REALLY JYC games up, we have to hit front ends etc.
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_Fan is right about the free throws. For us to REALLY JYC games up, we have to hit front ends etc.
All I'm asking for is 65%.
Samuels (59%!), Russell (78) and Sprads (88) are all shooting well. (Yes, Samuels at 59% is good given his past)
Jake is subpar for him at 67.
Kelly and McGruder both at 40, terrible. Asprilla at 29. JHR at 22. And Irving at 14%. Ouch.
Its reasonable to expect improvment though. Kelly was 67 last year. McGruder was 72. Irving was 67. JHR even was 50.
So its really been a combination of a lot of players shooting much worse than expected based on what they've done in the past. I've got to think sometime that will change, these things do tend to even out eventually.
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14% is pretty lol.
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my mother was very upset about the ft shooting.
"if they can't shoot at least 80%, i don't think i need to waste my time watching them"
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Even so, we really need to have either Spradling or Martavious step up and develope into a true B12 pg. We will struggle with Jake leading the point, at least against the elite teams
totally agree pullen needs to be a 2 and one of those guys has to step up and be our point.
Okay, I've got to go there. FT% matters. Before you get worked up, I'm only talking about making it to Martin team expectations; 65-68%. Do that, and his system is fine, but we can't live with 50% and expect it not to cost us in big games. Overall, our FT rate is still fine, not great, but it will get better. And our defensive FT rate is bad, but we have played good teams with good guards. Irving,
yeah hopefully that happens
was hoping asprilla would be better offensively but again it still early. ck seemed to have trouble passing out of the double team but that can be improved. and if we play them again hopefully pullen has a great game
i think right now k-state is an elite eight level squad but not yet final four level. but we can improve and our depth will be an advantage against almost every team we face. duke is just flat out a better team then we are but its early in the year and we can get it together.
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Some good (and bad) points in this thread. I've got to chime in with a bit now that I've got some time to do so.
The first thing this game told me is that we way underestimated Irving. I don't believe we thought he'd be able to do the things he did and finish consistently. We knew our pressure was a) going to give up back-doors and b) give up drives b/c it always does, but it also forces teams to throw the ball out of bounds at times and generally get very frustrated offensively; see VaTech and Gonzaga. We had a solid plan to limit Singer as much as we could and make someone else beat us, and once Irving and to a lesser extent Smith started getting by us, we had no answer. I don't believe zacker (I believe) was way off base in suggesting a zone, but that hasn't been Frank's MO, so he probably wasn't comfortable doing that. Plus Duke is probably better than anyone else at running offense with the floor spread as much as they did last night, that is something we probably won't see from anyone else really.
it's not so much a zone, rather something different. I don't know what that would look like. And this (this meaning our guards getting destroyed) happens on occassion (usually when we lose) so I would think he'd have something in his binder to counter. i mean, bill f'ing self went to a T&2 against us the last 2 years....the freaking university of kansas went to a T&2 because they couldn't handle kansas state. frank should have something by now.
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This game told us we are definitely not the #1 team in the nation right now.
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This game told us we are definitely not the #1 team in the nation right now.
good call.
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This game told us we are definitely not the #1 team in the nation right now.
That's about all I got out of it too... that and we'll have trouble winning games if Jake is off his game and no other guard steps up and goes off for 15-20+ points when we play a legit title contender.
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this is how we're going to look when we play kansas.
Pft, Kansas is no Duke. Kansas has the opposite of depth in the backcourt.
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1) Duke isn't as good as people think. We shut down their inside game pretty well. Singler couldn't score unless he was severely pushing off just before the shot. Nolan would be a better cat than a blue devil. Kyrie Irving and his multiple walks that weren't called was amazing. We lost by 14 by playing the worst game we could possibly play against them (a lot of credit does go to duke and coach K)
2) We have to find someone to run the PG position and let Pullen go back to primary SG. Spradling showed that he isn't the answer. To slow, highschool like handles...but very good shooter. Irving, Russel are prime choices. Southwell could be a darkhorse PG.
3) Like people have said, Asprilla needs his minutes greatly reduced. GREATLY. Kelly+Wally or Kelly + Samuels starting would be fine by me. Hell JHR should get more minutes than Asucka.
4) Martin got his ass handed to him. That being said, I like our match up in the finals or FF.
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1) Duke isn't as good as people think.
I stopped reading after that. Dork.
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1) Duke isn't as good as people think.
I stopped reading after that. Dork.
yeah effing good.
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1) Duke isn't as good as people think.
I stopped reading after that. Dork.
yeah effing good.
This. I agreed with maybe 10-15% of the entire post.
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I mean, how many teams right now are starting 3 NBA ready players?
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First of all, we could have used the offensive dimensions he brings more than the defense. Second of all he would have slapped Irving in the back of the head, weakening him. Third of all the word geek mean someone who bites the heads off of live animals in the circus so your username means you eat cat heads. That is gross.
Somebody read Geek Love! :love:
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First of all, we could have used the offensive dimensions he brings more than the defense. Second of all he would have slapped Irving in the back of the head, weakening him. Third of all the word geek mean someone who bites the heads off of live animals in the circus so your username means you eat cat heads. That is gross.
Somebody read Geek Love! :love:
Or Nightmare Alley. Or "Gopher in a Gilley." Culture did not start when you were born, doofbag.
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incorrect