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General Discussion => Essentially Flyertalk => Topic started by: The1BigWillie on January 20, 2016, 10:15:33 AM

Title: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: The1BigWillie on January 20, 2016, 10:15:33 AM
Jesus Christ... "trial"  "declared"
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: star seed 7 on January 20, 2016, 10:16:45 AM
So obscure
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: The Big Train on January 20, 2016, 11:02:43 AM
Good show, pretty disgusting how Ricky D's buddies abuse the law tho
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: pissclams on January 20, 2016, 11:13:52 AM
seemed pretty long.  also got tired of the one sided production. 
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: star seed 7 on January 20, 2016, 09:18:57 PM
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGwYKmDi.jpg&hash=b4ec362852e106ad8ade65aab85ee753620c590f)
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Cire on January 20, 2016, 10:02:31 PM
LoL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on January 21, 2016, 09:07:23 AM
http://uproxx.com/tv/making-a-murderer-edward-wayne-edwards/

 :sdeek:
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Cartierfor3 on January 21, 2016, 09:52:46 AM
It could've been like, 4 episodes long. Too many shots of people waddling in and out of court and shots of the junk yard with phone convos over the top that are like:

"yeah...... so......"
(long pause)
"trial starts tuesday don't cha know"
(long pause)
"....................................................ya...................................."
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: ChiComCat on January 21, 2016, 10:18:03 AM
I think cops tampered but considering what was left out of the documentary, people could still find steven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Cartierfor3 on January 21, 2016, 10:20:23 AM
The Brendan stuff was way more infuriating than the Steve stuff. If you wanna read about how the cops will force confessions to just clear a case, read this:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307266141/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=33028827728&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10333779166277054272&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_4fp00c9vzo_b (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307266141/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=33028827728&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10333779166277054272&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_4fp00c9vzo_b)
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 21, 2016, 10:24:53 AM
What was left out of the documentary ChiCat? 
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Cartierfor3 on January 21, 2016, 10:27:19 AM
What was left out of the documentary ChiCat?

http://onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/evidenceagainstavery.html (http://onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/evidenceagainstavery.html)
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: star seed 7 on January 21, 2016, 10:27:49 AM
A good amount of stuff, but I disagree any of it helps the reasonable doubt. Too many wtf with that case (but steve def killed that broad)
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Cartierfor3 on January 21, 2016, 10:38:02 AM
no one has ever hated a person like Mrs. CF3 hates this creep

(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.mic.com%2FZjAxOTc5Y2EyNSMvSGJxcWpOTWpWVGVHYnBwZzJQbkhsajVrZDVnPS80OXgyODoyODMzeDE2NjUvOTAweDUzMC9maWx0ZXJzOnF1YWxpdHkoNzApL2h0dHA6Ly9zMy5hbWF6b25hd3MuY29tL3BvbGljeW1pYy1pbWFnZXMvcmFtdjRsc3Z2bTQ4MHpoZHA3NzdlNnhucXowOHBybXVsd242anU5c2lqcmY0dDBxdTZqendzaXBieGh4ZG5wYi5qcGc%3D.jpg&hash=f624a04c3dda8bd61e3b85f720300ca2bbc39bf0)
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: star seed 7 on January 21, 2016, 10:38:53 AM
Mocat and I think he diddles kids
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Shooter Jones on January 21, 2016, 10:54:50 AM
I haven't watched the last 3 episodes, yet.. but you guys really poiled it for me
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Mikeyis4dcats on January 21, 2016, 10:57:04 AM
I voted #3 but it shouldn't have been a mistrial, but a not guilty vote.

Also, much of the "missing evidence" has not been corroborated by sources other than Kratz's interview, FWIW.

Reddit has a good sub on it.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: ChiComCat on January 21, 2016, 10:59:30 AM
A good amount of stuff, but I disagree any of it helps the reasonable doubt. Too many wtf with that case (but steve def killed that broad)

I can see where a jury would find him guilty - I don't know that I would have. Regardless, Steven had a pretty damn good defense team and was found guilty.  I really don't know on what grounds he deserves an appeal.

My issue with the cases is Brendan's incompetent defense team.  He didn't get a fair shake.  Not saying he is innocent or guilty, but that defense team with Len or whoever was brutal.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Shooter Jones on January 21, 2016, 11:06:32 AM
A good amount of stuff, but I disagree any of it helps the reasonable doubt. Too many wtf with that case (but steve def killed that broad)

I can see where a jury would find him guilty - I don't know that I would have. Regardless, Steven had a pretty damn good defense team and was found guilty.  I really don't know on what grounds he deserves an appeal.

My issue with the cases is Brendan's incompetent defense team.  He didn't get a fair shake.  Not saying he is innocent or guilty, but that defense team with Len or whoever was brutal.

(https://41.media.tumblr.com/447e6de414c9b7d1c0645388054de87d/tumblr_nzp2ckhJgJ1qz7t8ho1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on January 21, 2016, 11:21:20 AM
What was left out of the documentary ChiCat?

http://onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/evidenceagainstavery.html (http://onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/evidenceagainstavery.html)


I find this laundry list of prosecution points unconvincing to convict Avery beyond a reasonable doubt for the following reasons: 1) 5 points are character traits implying he could commit such an heinous murder (owning leg irons, some problems with with his girlfriend, pornography in the house, previous animal cruelty involved a bonfire, Avery drew a toture chamber while in prison). This is not hard evidence and most are unpersuasive. Avery was not a model citizen, but there was no evidence presented that he is a brutal killer or rapist. 2) 5 points are circumstantial, not necessarily allowed in the trial, and we do not have the benefit of knowing how the defense dealt with them. These are Brendan helped Avery clean the garage floor, Avery opened a door to Hallback with just a towel on, Avery specifically requested Hallback to come, Avery gave a false name to Auto Trader, Avery used *69 to hide his identity in 2 calls to Hallback). 3) 1 point (The burnt bone fragments were mixed with steel tire belts) has no particular connection to Avery, but maybe, somehow to the unidentified killer. 4) The remaining 3 points are evidence found by investigators (including the thoroughly discredited Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department) who seemed to find evidence whenever they needed it and often weeks afterward. As far as DNA, it was on items that made the prosecutor's case, but not on obvious places (no Hallback DNA on the keys). 5) Brendan's multiple confessions were completely forced and manipulated, not to mention totally unethical. Maybe 10 years ago it was not as well known how often false confession are extracted, but it is today. However, in the public relations war, it was very helpful in convicting Avery. 6) The prosecutor had shifting scenarios of how the murder was committed. First it was in the bedroom, then it was in the garage. 7) There is no story that adds up that Avery committed the murdered. Three examples...First, It would be impossible to clean up such a ghastly dismemberment, but nothing clear cut was found. Second, Avery would not have put a few branches and discarded construction wood on Hallback's car to hide it. Rather he would have used the car crushing machine in the yard. Third, Avery had an industrial incinerator and would not have made a bonfire to dispose of the body. 8) The investigators and the DA hardly investigated other suspects. With the known information, it cannot be proved that Avery did not commit the murder. However, Avery cannot be convicted beyond a reasonable doubt, since there is so much doubt, and this is the standard of the law.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: star seed 7 on January 21, 2016, 11:30:58 AM
^tldnr
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on January 21, 2016, 11:32:29 AM
^tldnr

yeah I didn't read the whole thing either. cut and past from comments. I'd like to see one of the aver haters (chicat, etc) argue it though because it started out pretty good.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: ChiComCat on January 21, 2016, 11:36:01 AM
^tldnr

yeah I didn't read the whole thing either. cut and past from comments. I'd like to see one of the aver haters (chicat, etc) argue it though because it started out pretty good.

Don't read the ending - it is revealed that he thinks Avery is innocent because there are smarter ways he could've committed the crime.  Implying that anyone in that family would make consistently smart choices is absolutely absurd.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on January 21, 2016, 11:45:17 AM
http://uproxx.com/tv/making-a-murderer-edward-wayne-edwards/

 :sdeek:
Uh, guys! You should probably look into this.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: star seed 7 on January 21, 2016, 11:48:08 AM
Looks pretty flimsy WackyCat08
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: TownieCat on January 21, 2016, 11:50:08 AM
The 2nd and 3rd points in your 7th reason only imply that Avery was really dumb about committing murder, not that he was incapable of it.

I binged watch the entire series in about 48 hours over the weekend and then read some articles afterwards. I think that Avery did it, but the county and state conducted an unfair trial. It also didn't help that everyone in Wisconsin knew his background, so there was a low probability of finding an unbiased jury.

Also, I'm not entirely sure how this works, but Brendan should have plead insanity or something. The kid was obviously manipulated into a confession by the prosecution.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: OK_Cat on January 21, 2016, 11:53:55 AM
I think that Avery is a shitty person and obviously not a smart man, but the evidence doesn't add up.

Those defense attorneys, though....wow, dreamboats. <3
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on January 21, 2016, 12:12:09 PM
^tldnr

yeah I didn't read the whole thing either. cut and past from comments. I'd like to see one of the aver haters (chicat, etc) argue it though because it started out pretty good.

Don't read the ending - it is revealed that he thinks Avery is innocent because there are smarter ways he could've committed the crime.  Implying that anyone in that family would make consistently smart choices is absolutely absurd.

well he was consistently smart in somehow finding out ways to get rid of every single shred of the victim's blood and dna that was at some point in time all over his house and garage. he also managed to completely erase her dna off of the key fob. so since he was able to somehow do all this, I don't think it's crazy to expect him to crush the car in the crusher instead of hiding it with a couple of tree limbs or incinerate the body in his incinerator instead of a fire in his backyard or and I don't know, I'm just spitballing here, maybe wipe off the large amount of his blood that was right next to her key ignition.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on January 21, 2016, 12:18:13 PM
so there was a low probability of finding an unbiased jury.


given that one of the jury members was the father of Manitowoc County Sheriff's deputy, I'd have to agree
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: TownieCat on January 21, 2016, 12:26:39 PM
^tldnr

yeah I didn't read the whole thing either. cut and past from comments. I'd like to see one of the aver haters (chicat, etc) argue it though because it started out pretty good.

Don't read the ending - it is revealed that he thinks Avery is innocent because there are smarter ways he could've committed the crime.  Implying that anyone in that family would make consistently smart choices is absolutely absurd.

well he was consistently smart in somehow finding out ways to get rid of every single shred of the victim's blood and dna that was at some point in time all over his house and garage. he also managed to completely erase her dna off of the key fob. so since he was able to somehow do all this, I don't think it's crazy to expect him to crush the car in the crusher instead of hiding it with a couple of tree limbs or incinerate the body in his incinerator instead of a fire in his backyard or and I don't know, I'm just spitballing here, maybe wipe off the large amount of his blood that was right next to her key ignition.  :dunno:

I'm not a murderer, so I usually don't try to think like one, but why didn't he just throw the key into the nearest body of water? Google tells me that Wisconsin has over 15,000 lakes.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Shooter Jones on January 21, 2016, 12:30:37 PM
^tldnr

yeah I didn't read the whole thing either. cut and past from comments. I'd like to see one of the aver haters (chicat, etc) argue it though because it started out pretty good.

Don't read the ending - it is revealed that he thinks Avery is innocent because there are smarter ways he could've committed the crime.  Implying that anyone in that family would make consistently smart choices is absolutely absurd.

well he was consistently smart in somehow finding out ways to get rid of every single shred of the victim's blood and dna that was at some point in time all over his house and garage. he also managed to completely erase her dna off of the key fob. so since he was able to somehow do all this, I don't think it's crazy to expect him to crush the car in the crusher instead of hiding it with a couple of tree limbs or incinerate the body in his incinerator instead of a fire in his backyard or and I don't know, I'm just spitballing here, maybe wipe off the large amount of his blood that was right next to her key ignition.  :dunno:

I'm not a murderer, so I usually don't try to think like one, but why didn't he just throw the key into the nearest body of water? Google tells me that Wisconsin has over 15,000 lakes.

I mean, maybe I heard wrong, but didn't they say there wasn't a single other persons finger print or DNA on the key? That's pretty lol'y.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Cire on January 21, 2016, 12:38:33 PM
Brenden should have been not guilty

Steven should have had a mistrial/hung jury.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on January 21, 2016, 12:49:11 PM
^tldnr

yeah I didn't read the whole thing either. cut and past from comments. I'd like to see one of the aver haters (chicat, etc) argue it though because it started out pretty good.

Don't read the ending - it is revealed that he thinks Avery is innocent because there are smarter ways he could've committed the crime.  Implying that anyone in that family would make consistently smart choices is absolutely absurd.

well he was consistently smart in somehow finding out ways to get rid of every single shred of the victim's blood and dna that was at some point in time all over his house and garage. he also managed to completely erase her dna off of the key fob. so since he was able to somehow do all this, I don't think it's crazy to expect him to crush the car in the crusher instead of hiding it with a couple of tree limbs or incinerate the body in his incinerator instead of a fire in his backyard or and I don't know, I'm just spitballing here, maybe wipe off the large amount of his blood that was right next to her key ignition.  :dunno:

I'm not a murderer, so I usually don't try to think like one, but why didn't he just throw the key into the nearest body of water? Google tells me that Wisconsin has over 15,000 lakes.

I mean, maybe I heard wrong, but didn't they say there wasn't a single other persons finger print or DNA on the key? That's pretty lol'y.

yeah. his dna was the only dna, so he apparently scrubbed the key and key fob completely clean and then put it inside of his house because yeah, that's something someone would do.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on January 21, 2016, 12:50:35 PM
oh hey there I got this key and key chain that belongs to the girls car on my property who I just murdered so I'm going to do a great job of completely ridding it of every shred of dna and then I'm going to go put it in my bedroom. um, yeah ok.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 21, 2016, 12:54:31 PM
maybe he was in the post-coitus IDGAF stage (don't care had sex)
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: BW on January 21, 2016, 02:33:18 PM
http://brobible.com/entertainment/article/making-a-murderer-theory-explains-colborns-call/

Fairly close to my theory. Colburn's face an hair are enraging.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dub on January 21, 2016, 02:47:35 PM
The lack of blood anywhere in the garage/apartment and the blood in the back of the car are the biggest WTF for me.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on January 21, 2016, 04:23:08 PM
The lack of blood anywhere in the garage/apartment and the blood in the back of the car are the biggest WTF for me.

he obviously killed her in the garage or house and then put her in the back of the vehicle for some reason and then put her in the burn pit ten feet from his house and burned her. then he parked her car on his property, made no real attempt to hide it, unhooked the car battery and did all of this without leaving a single fingerprint anywhere on/in the vehicle, but did leave some of his blood in obvious easy to see places. then he went back to the house and miraculously figured a way to rid his house and garage of every single shred of her dna, blood, hair, etc. then her took her keychain, cleaned it completely to rid it of her dna and finshed off by laying the recently cleaned key chain on the floor out in the open where it could easily be spotted except for the fact that it was not found by the other three police departments that checked the house and was only noticed when one of the Manitowoc guys, who was not even supposed to be there, was left alone.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Kat Kid on January 21, 2016, 04:56:24 PM
The lesson here is don't get accused of murder because reasonable doubt is a very good album and a very scary proposition in front of a jury.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: kso_FAN on February 02, 2016, 11:11:19 AM
I finished it last weekend. Interesting story. I do enjoy listening to his defense attorneys, they are on a lot of podcasts on itunes and I listened to a bunch. I also listened to the "Rebutting a Murderer" podcast put together by one of the guys that covered the trial.

I tend to agree that he could be a pretty bad person that has been wrongly convicted twice. Unfortunately the general lack of intelligence from him and his entire family doesn't help with the perception of his innocence if I'm being completely honest. I lean toward the brother of his nephew and the other guy that went hunting to be good suspects.

Also, this guy has a crazy theory that's kind of interesting: http://coldcasecameron.com/
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: AbeFroman on February 02, 2016, 12:19:22 PM
I stumbled on the follow up story on ID last night. The best part was when they said Brad Dassey (Brenden's half brother) made a song to support Steve/Brenden. Incredible is an understatement.

https://m.soundcloud.com/braddasseymusic/brad-dassey-they-didnt-do-it
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: pissclams on February 02, 2016, 12:24:23 PM
Quote
ran to minnesota, give the guy a soda
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: kso_FAN on February 02, 2016, 12:35:22 PM
I don't like to be mean, but I don't think this family's tree has a lot of forks in it. Doesn't make them guilty, but still...
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: ChiComCat on February 02, 2016, 02:00:50 PM
The lack of blood anywhere in the garage/apartment and the blood in the back of the car are the biggest WTF for me.

he obviously killed her in the garage or house and then put her in the back of the vehicle for some reason and then put her in the burn pit ten feet from his house and burned her. then he parked her car on his property, made no real attempt to hide it, unhooked the car battery and did all of this without leaving a single fingerprint anywhere on/in the vehicle, but did leave some of his blood in obvious easy to see places. then he went back to the house and miraculously figured a way to rid his house and garage of every single shred of her dna, blood, hair, etc. then her took her keychain, cleaned it completely to rid it of her dna and finshed off by laying the recently cleaned key chain on the floor out in the open where it could easily be spotted except for the fact that it was not found by the other three police departments that checked the house and was only noticed when one of the Manitowoc guys, who was not even supposed to be there, was left alone.

Meh, he killed her on a tarp or something.  I think the cops likely planted evidence but I still think he's guilty.  Anyways, if he wanted to look like he was framed, crushing the car isn't the best option.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Cire on February 02, 2016, 02:52:31 PM
There is no way that they cleaned all the physical evidence in the house based on the prosecution story of how the murder happened.

If they say that she had her throat cut and was shot in the home Steven effing Avery didn't clean all that crap up.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: kso_FAN on February 02, 2016, 04:06:01 PM
Sorry wacky, I missed your Ed Edwards link when I posted the same.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: ChiComCat on February 02, 2016, 04:42:20 PM
There is no way that they cleaned all the physical evidence in the house based on the prosecution story of how the murder happened.

If they say that she had her throat cut and was shot in the home Steven effing Avery didn't clean all that crap up.


In all honestly, I think he likely killed her some other place.  The bullet muddied this a bit but I think that was planted
Title: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: kso_FAN on February 02, 2016, 05:27:34 PM
Kachinsky is definitely the least likable guy. Even more than Kratz. JMHO.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: meow meow on February 02, 2016, 06:01:49 PM
Kachinsky might be a scum bag, but Kratz is easily the least likable guy, and his voice haunts my dreams.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: pissclams on February 02, 2016, 06:33:11 PM
they're all inbreds up there, none of them are likable
it's why they continue to live in Manitowoc County, Wis, they have no other choice.  their bad genes have chosen the place where they live.  just too damn dumb to move somewhere livable.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Cire on February 02, 2016, 06:44:28 PM

There is no way that they cleaned all the physical evidence in the house based on the prosecution story of how the murder happened.

If they say that she had her throat cut and was shot in the home Steven effing Avery didn't clean all that crap up.


In all honestly, I think he likely killed her some other place.  The bullet muddied this a bit but I think that was planted
agree but that wasn't the prosecution narrative


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Emo EMAW on February 03, 2016, 08:40:57 AM
Surprisingly unlikable was dead girl's brother.  What a dickhead.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Missouriscribe on February 03, 2016, 09:21:26 AM
media/prosecutors put him in a weird spot. He shouldn't have been up there every day to slam the other side.
Works for the Packers, too
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dub on February 03, 2016, 10:56:33 AM

There is no way that they cleaned all the physical evidence in the house based on the prosecution story of how the murder happened.

If they say that she had her throat cut and was shot in the home Steven effing Avery didn't clean all that crap up.


In all honestly, I think he likely killed her some other place.  The bullet muddied this a bit but I think that was planted
agree but that wasn't the prosecution narrative


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The whole things gets thrown off on the "he's a complete moron" vs "He's highly intelligent at covering up" debate.  There's no way he cleaned up everything if it was done on property.  If it was off property, surely they would've found something to collaborate with that.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: ChiComCat on February 03, 2016, 11:22:02 AM

There is no way that they cleaned all the physical evidence in the house based on the prosecution story of how the murder happened.

If they say that she had her throat cut and was shot in the home Steven effing Avery didn't clean all that crap up.


In all honestly, I think he likely killed her some other place.  The bullet muddied this a bit but I think that was planted
agree but that wasn't the prosecution narrative


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The whole things gets thrown off on the "he's a complete moron" vs "He's highly intelligent at covering up" debate.  There's no way he cleaned up everything if it was done on property.  If it was off property, surely they would've found something to collaborate with that.

I think the blood in the back of girl's car corroborates the off property.  I agree with cire the prosecution narrative sucks.  I think they were trying to create a narrative and the planting of evidence mumped up a more likely narrative.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on February 03, 2016, 11:46:57 AM

There is no way that they cleaned all the physical evidence in the house based on the prosecution story of how the murder happened.

If they say that she had her throat cut and was shot in the home Steven effing Avery didn't clean all that crap up.


In all honestly, I think he likely killed her some other place.  The bullet muddied this a bit but I think that was planted
agree but that wasn't the prosecution narrative


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The whole things gets thrown off on the "he's a complete moron" vs "He's highly intelligent at covering up" debate.  There's no way he cleaned up everything if it was done on property.  If it was off property, surely they would've found something to collaborate with that.

I think the blood in the back of girl's car corroborates the off property.  I agree with cire the prosecution narrative sucks.  I think they were trying to create a narrative and the planting of evidence mumped up a more likely narrative.

so you think steven avery killed her off property and then drove her back onto his property to burn her ten feet away from his house and then park her car there?
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dub on February 03, 2016, 11:51:43 AM

There is no way that they cleaned all the physical evidence in the house based on the prosecution story of how the murder happened.

If they say that she had her throat cut and was shot in the home Steven effing Avery didn't clean all that crap up.


In all honestly, I think he likely killed her some other place.  The bullet muddied this a bit but I think that was planted
agree but that wasn't the prosecution narrative


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The whole things gets thrown off on the "he's a complete moron" vs "He's highly intelligent at covering up" debate.  There's no way he cleaned up everything if it was done on property.  If it was off property, surely they would've found something to collaborate with that.

I think the blood in the back of girl's car corroborates the off property.  I agree with cire the prosecution narrative sucks.  I think they were trying to create a narrative and the planting of evidence mumped up a more likely narrative.

so you think steven avery killed her off property and then drove her back onto his property to burn her ten feet away from his house and then park her car there?

Also.. if he did it off property, there's a lot of blood somewhere waiting to be found.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: ChiComCat on February 03, 2016, 12:07:37 PM
The blood is waiting to be found wherever it is regardless of who did it unless he disposed of it amazingly well.

I think its more plausible that he killed her and moved her than the cops planting a bullet, DNA, key, car, and burned bone fragments.  They could probably get me to reasonable doubt on most of it but the burned bone fragments I struggle with.  I don't think they hit the blood/hair in the back of the car with as much detail as they should in the documentary.  Seems like someone pretty clearly moved her body back there and if Steven's grand plan was to burn it, I'm not sure he knows enough to be concerned about bone fragments.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dub on February 03, 2016, 12:22:46 PM
The blood is waiting to be found wherever it is regardless of who did it unless he disposed of it amazingly well.

I think its more plausible that he killed her and moved her than the cops planting a bullet, DNA, key, car, and burned bone fragments.  They could probably get me to reasonable doubt on most of it but the burned bone fragments I struggle with.  I don't think they hit the blood/hair in the back of the car with as much detail as they should in the documentary.  Seems like someone pretty clearly moved her body back there and if Steven's grand plan was to burn it, I'm not sure he knows enough to be concerned about bone fragments.

This is where that argument comes in though.  He's smart enough to clean up blood/evidence off property but isn't on-property?  A good enough to clean the key but then leaves it in his dresser?  There's multiple instances that he's a "genius and moron"
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: yoga-like_abana on February 03, 2016, 12:31:35 PM
still have yet to watch this  :eek:
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on February 03, 2016, 12:39:38 PM
The blood is waiting to be found wherever it is regardless of who did it unless he disposed of it amazingly well.

I think its more plausible that he killed her and moved her than the cops planting a bullet, DNA, key, car, and burned bone fragments.  They could probably get me to reasonable doubt on most of it but the burned bone fragments I struggle with.  I don't think they hit the blood/hair in the back of the car with as much detail as they should in the documentary.  Seems like someone pretty clearly moved her body back there and if Steven's grand plan was to burn it, I'm not sure he knows enough to be concerned about bone fragments.

This is where that argument comes in though.  He's smart enough to clean up blood/evidence off property but isn't on-property?  A good enough to clean the key but then leaves it in his dresser?  There's multiple instances that he's a "genius and moron"

I'm with dub. To me it seems far more plausible that one of his other idiot family members did it off property and then framed Avery because they maybe thought they would get his money (30 million dollar lawsuit) if he was in jail or simply because they didn't want to split ownership of the salvage yard with him. it's just impossible for me to wrap my head around him being so amazingly great at some things and so amazingly terrible at others.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dub on February 03, 2016, 12:43:30 PM
The blood is waiting to be found wherever it is regardless of who did it unless he disposed of it amazingly well.

I think its more plausible that he killed her and moved her than the cops planting a bullet, DNA, key, car, and burned bone fragments.  They could probably get me to reasonable doubt on most of it but the burned bone fragments I struggle with.  I don't think they hit the blood/hair in the back of the car with as much detail as they should in the documentary.  Seems like someone pretty clearly moved her body back there and if Steven's grand plan was to burn it, I'm not sure he knows enough to be concerned about bone fragments.

This is where that argument comes in though.  He's smart enough to clean up blood/evidence off property but isn't on-property?  A good enough to clean the key but then leaves it in his dresser?  There's multiple instances that he's a "genius and moron"

I'm with dub. To me it seems far more plausible that one of his other idiot family members did it off property and then framed Avery because they maybe thought they would get his money (30 million dollar lawsuit) if he was in jail or simply because they didn't want to split ownership of the salvage yard with him. it's just impossible for me to wrap my head around him being so amazingly great at some things and so amazingly terrible at others.

Also, can't remember his family member's name, but his nephew (?) that left to go hunting and "saw" the neighbor drive by as well and figured he would collaborate his alibi was weird and seemed off.  Seemed off that he acted like he overheard jokes when it wasn't him and threw his uncle under the bus ( :D) all the sudden.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: ChiComCat on February 03, 2016, 01:03:13 PM
Oh, I think the key was planted along with the bullet.  Some of the DNA and the car have the potential to be planted too.  I think the DA's office had to come up with a shitty narrative because they had to maintain the integrity of every piece of evidence.  I don't buy their narrative but that doesn't mean that I think he's innocent. 

I don't know that he is smart enough to clean up blood/evidence whether on or off property anyway.  If people think a lot of the evidence was planted by cops, a logical extension would be that they may have found the crime scene but preferred the narrative to be that she was killed at his salvage yard.  I think that he likely hastily cleaned it up and nobody who wasn't specifically looking for it would notice.

Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: pissclams on February 03, 2016, 02:11:02 PM
something i read said that it would be very hard for avery to burn the body in the manner that they have suggested.  like, it would be hard to get the temps and how long it would take to basically incinerate her body.  gross stuff.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on February 03, 2016, 02:42:59 PM
something i read said that it would be very hard for avery to burn the body in the manner that they have suggested.  like, it would be hard to get the temps and how long it would take to basically incinerate her body.  gross stuff.

his new lawyer suggested some of the same stuff. basically said that a fire that hot would have burned his house as well because of how close they were together. now we just wait for chicat to come back by and tell us that avery burned her somewhere else and just brought a bunch of her bones back to his property.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: ChiComCat on February 03, 2016, 02:50:03 PM
something i read said that it would be very hard for avery to burn the body in the manner that they have suggested.  like, it would be hard to get the temps and how long it would take to basically incinerate her body.  gross stuff.

his new lawyer suggested some of the same stuff. basically said that a fire that hot would have burned his house as well because of how close they were together. now we just wait for chicat to come back by and tell us that avery burned her somewhere else and just brought a bunch of her bones back to his property.

If the body was moved after the burn, I can pretty easily decide innocent. At that point you have to think someone other than the cops is framing him.  Daris' theory of a family member would be pretty genius as that person is pretty much nailing both Steven and the cops at the same time.  He drops the key prior to the next cop search and boom, one of those two had to be responsible.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dub on February 03, 2016, 02:54:20 PM
The thing is, you don't have to decide if they are innocent.  You are supposed to decide if they are not guilty.  Which is why it's amazing that they were both convicted.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on February 03, 2016, 03:02:18 PM
something i read said that it would be very hard for avery to burn the body in the manner that they have suggested.  like, it would be hard to get the temps and how long it would take to basically incinerate her body.  gross stuff.

his new lawyer suggested some of the same stuff. basically said that a fire that hot would have burned his house as well because of how close they were together. now we just wait for chicat to come back by and tell us that avery burned her somewhere else and just brought a bunch of her bones back to his property.

If the body was moved after the burn, I can pretty easily decide innocent. At that point you have to think someone other than the cops is framing him.  Daris' theory of a family member would be pretty genius as that person is pretty much nailing both Steven and the cops at the same time.  He drops the key prior to the next cop search and boom, one of those two had to be responsible.

ummm, you might want to read this....

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/making-a-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-on-the-evidence-left-out-20160115
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Cire on February 03, 2016, 03:04:13 PM
yeah, the burden of proof should be more than the coerced confession of a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) person.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on February 03, 2016, 03:19:24 PM
something i read said that it would be very hard for avery to burn the body in the manner that they have suggested.  like, it would be hard to get the temps and how long it would take to basically incinerate her body.  gross stuff.

his new lawyer suggested some of the same stuff. basically said that a fire that hot would have burned his house as well because of how close they were together. now we just wait for chicat to come back by and tell us that avery burned her somewhere else and just brought a bunch of her bones back to his property.

If the body was moved after the burn, I can pretty easily decide innocent. At that point you have to think someone other than the cops is framing him.  Daris' theory of a family member would be pretty genius as that person is pretty much nailing both Steven and the cops at the same time.  He drops the key prior to the next cop search and boom, one of those two had to be responsible.

ummm, you might want to read this....

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/making-a-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-on-the-evidence-left-out-20160115

quick summary for those that don't click and read... most of Theresa halbach's bones were found in a burn pit right next to steven Avery's house. some of Theresa halbach's bones were found in a burn barrel by bobby dassey's house which was about 100 yards away. they know that these belonged to Theresa halbach because there was tissue still attached that they could test. in addition to those two sites...one mile away in gravel quarry, a burn site was found that had a human female pelvic bone in it.  they could not determine who the bone belonged to because there was no tissue attached to test. an expert testified that the found pelvic bone did appear to have the same type of degree and pattern of burning/calcination as the ones that were found in the burn barrel behind the Dassey house and the burn pit behind Steven Avery's house.

so either avery did it in his burn pit right by his house like the prosecuation said and then went and put a small amount in a barrel over by the dassey house and possibly (probably) a small amount in a gravel quarry burn site one mile away -OR- and get ready for this mind blowing possibility... somebody burned her at the gravel sight, loaded up 99% of it into the dassey's burn barrel and then dumped 97% of that into steven Avery's burn pit.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dub on February 03, 2016, 03:26:46 PM
something i read said that it would be very hard for avery to burn the body in the manner that they have suggested.  like, it would be hard to get the temps and how long it would take to basically incinerate her body.  gross stuff.

his new lawyer suggested some of the same stuff. basically said that a fire that hot would have burned his house as well because of how close they were together. now we just wait for chicat to come back by and tell us that avery burned her somewhere else and just brought a bunch of her bones back to his property.

If the body was moved after the burn, I can pretty easily decide innocent. At that point you have to think someone other than the cops is framing him.  Daris' theory of a family member would be pretty genius as that person is pretty much nailing both Steven and the cops at the same time.  He drops the key prior to the next cop search and boom, one of those two had to be responsible.

ummm, you might want to read this....

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/making-a-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-on-the-evidence-left-out-20160115

quick summary for those that don't click and read... most of Theresa halbach's bones were found in a burn pit right next to steven Avery's house. some of Theresa halbach's bones were found in a burn barrel by bobby dassey's house which was about 100 yards away. they know that these belonged to Theresa halbach because there was tissue still attached that they could test. in addition to those two sites...one mile away in gravel quarry, a burn site was found that had a human pelvic bone in it. they could not determine who the bone belonged to because there was no tissue attached to test.

so either avery did it in his burn pit right by his house like the prosecuation said and then went and put a small amount in a barrel over by the dassey house and possibly (probably) a small amount in a gravel quarry burn site one mile away -OR- somebody burned her at the gravel sight, loaded up 99% of it into the dassey's burn barrel and then dumped 95% of that into steven Avery's burn pit.

Also mentioned body was burned all at one site because there was a mix of different bones at each site, not certain areas of the body at each.  And had an expert say that the burn pit would have to be running hot for 12-15 hours in order to produce the kind of burn it did.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on February 03, 2016, 03:31:02 PM
I mean if I'm steven avery and I just killed somebody, I'm going to burn her and then put 96% of her bones in a pit right next to my house, 3% in a barrel outside the dassey house and then one random bone at a gravel quarry about a mile away because that just makes sense. a regular steven avery appleseed, that guy was.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: ChiComCat on February 03, 2016, 03:39:33 PM
something i read said that it would be very hard for avery to burn the body in the manner that they have suggested.  like, it would be hard to get the temps and how long it would take to basically incinerate her body.  gross stuff.

his new lawyer suggested some of the same stuff. basically said that a fire that hot would have burned his house as well because of how close they were together. now we just wait for chicat to come back by and tell us that avery burned her somewhere else and just brought a bunch of her bones back to his property.

If the body was moved after the burn, I can pretty easily decide innocent. At that point you have to think someone other than the cops is framing him.  Daris' theory of a family member would be pretty genius as that person is pretty much nailing both Steven and the cops at the same time.  He drops the key prior to the next cop search and boom, one of those two had to be responsible.

ummm, you might want to read this....

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/making-a-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-on-the-evidence-left-out-20160115

Had not seen that.  I think given that I likely would've been in the not guilty camp.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on February 03, 2016, 03:43:01 PM
another weird thing that makes no sense and should bother any sane person-

the key and key fob that were found in steven Avery's house only had steven Avery's dna on it. so in addition to spreading two very small amounts of her cremated body in two different locations away from his house... he also took her key chain, scrubbed it completely to remove her dna and then touched it a bunch more to put his dna on it and then put it out in the open on the floor of his bedroom because yeah, that's exactly what somebody would do -OR- and this one is really going to smack you around a bit. maybe, avery wasn't the killer and someone else parked halbach's vehicle ther, then scrubbed the key to make sure their dna was not on it and then rubbed it a bit on Avery's bedspread or dirty tshirt and then left it in his house where it would be found.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: meow meow on February 03, 2016, 04:26:45 PM
Rick, did you get promoted to Detective at the RCPD?
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: kso_FAN on February 10, 2016, 11:06:49 PM
http://youtu.be/q_RgUeeaWdc

http://youtu.be/y_vDQjms_V4
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 11, 2016, 08:33:51 AM
http://youtu.be/q_RgUeeaWdc

http://youtu.be/y_vDQjms_V4
:D
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on July 20, 2016, 02:05:19 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/steve-averys-lawyer-says-new-making-a-murderer-episodes-will-show-steven-is-innocent-and-was-framed/ar-BBuySjW?li=BBnb7Kz
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Shooter Jones on July 20, 2016, 02:25:29 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/steve-averys-lawyer-says-new-making-a-murderer-episodes-will-show-steven-is-innocent-and-was-framed/ar-BBuySjW?li=BBnb7Kz

Quote from: comments
you people have been duped, the guy did it.. he continues to threaten to burn his ex wife/gf and her daughter to death if she testifies... it is on tape.. the producers of this show are libtards that think they are doing society a favor, they are not, they are trying ot release a stone cold murderer back into society.. do any of you want this mutt living next door to your families?
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: catastrophe on July 20, 2016, 05:30:03 PM
If you watched the first season and still think he's guilty then WTF is wrong with you? It would take someone with serious forensic knowledge and a good amount of time to completely scrub his place like Avery supposedly did (except for the stuff that most easily could have been tampered with).

I could see a juror believing the prosecution's story because they can't watch Avery interact in the normal world, but even then I think they were something like 8-4 in their first vote thinking he was innocent.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: catastrophe on July 20, 2016, 05:31:10 PM
I guess what I'm saying is these new episodes won't change anyone's minds at this point.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on August 12, 2016, 03:31:08 PM
https://twitter.com/john_diedrich/status/764190211685351424
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: WildcatNkilt on August 12, 2016, 03:43:44 PM
Beat me to it.

Does this mean his confession that also was evidence against Steven Avery is no longer valid?  Can Avery get a new trial? 
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on August 12, 2016, 04:01:03 PM
Maybe
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: catastrophe on August 12, 2016, 04:31:21 PM
I haven't seen why they overturned the conviction, but probably not would be my guess. If it was based on ineffective assistance of counsel then it wouldn't have any impact on his confession in the Avery trial.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: WildcatNkilt on August 12, 2016, 05:05:25 PM
Quote
Judge William E. Duffin found that investigators repeatedly made false promises to Dassey, who was 16 years old and a slow learner, in extracting a confession, which Dassey's legal team had maintained was coerced. The judge found that confession was involuntary in a 91-page decision handed down Friday.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 12, 2016, 05:18:00 PM
if i was obama i would invite that kid to the white house. have a party with him, clock kid, a-rod, and like a bunch of other people
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: The Big Train on August 12, 2016, 05:45:34 PM
https://twitter.com/comedyray/status/764209611033411584
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on August 12, 2016, 08:46:30 PM
I still think Avery is guilty tho. Brendan is a sad case tho.
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: catastrophe on August 13, 2016, 07:52:50 AM
https://twitter.com/comedyray/status/764209611033411584

:lol:
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: That_Guy on August 13, 2016, 10:46:07 AM
I still think Avery is guilty tho. Brendan is a sad case tho.

This.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on September 23, 2016, 01:31:05 PM
https://twitter.com/DailyMail/status/779377694060507137
Title: Re: Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)
Post by: Dugout DickStone on September 23, 2016, 01:44:06 PM
crazy kids