Making a Murderer: You be the judge. (Spoilers)

[Cire]

There is no way that they cleaned all the physical evidence in the house based on the prosecution story of how the murder happened.

If they say that she had her throat cut and was shot in the home Steven effing Avery didn't clean all that crap up.

In all honestly, I think he likely killed her some other place.  The bullet muddied this a bit but I think that was planted

agree but that wasn't the prosecution narrative


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[Emo EMAW]

Surprisingly unlikable was dead girl's brother.  What a dickhead.

[Missouriscribe]

media/prosecutors put him in a weird spot. He shouldn't have been up there every day to slam the other side.
Works for the Packers, too

[Dub]

There is no way that they cleaned all the physical evidence in the house based on the prosecution story of how the murder happened.

If they say that she had her throat cut and was shot in the home Steven effing Avery didn't clean all that crap up.

In all honestly, I think he likely killed her some other place.  The bullet muddied this a bit but I think that was planted

agree but that wasn't the prosecution narrative


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The whole things gets thrown off on the "he's a complete moron" vs "He's highly intelligent at covering up" debate.  There's no way he cleaned up everything if it was done on property.  If it was off property, surely they would've found something to collaborate with that.

[ChiComCat]

There is no way that they cleaned all the physical evidence in the house based on the prosecution story of how the murder happened.

If they say that she had her throat cut and was shot in the home Steven effing Avery didn't clean all that crap up.

In all honestly, I think he likely killed her some other place.  The bullet muddied this a bit but I think that was planted

agree but that wasn't the prosecution narrative


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The whole things gets thrown off on the "he's a complete moron" vs "He's highly intelligent at covering up" debate.  There's no way he cleaned up everything if it was done on property.  If it was off property, surely they would've found something to collaborate with that.

I think the blood in the back of girl's car corroborates the off property.  I agree with cire the prosecution narrative sucks.  I think they were trying to create a narrative and the planting of evidence mumped up a more likely narrative.

[Dr Rick Daris]

There is no way that they cleaned all the physical evidence in the house based on the prosecution story of how the murder happened.

If they say that she had her throat cut and was shot in the home Steven effing Avery didn't clean all that crap up.

In all honestly, I think he likely killed her some other place.  The bullet muddied this a bit but I think that was planted

agree but that wasn't the prosecution narrative


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The whole things gets thrown off on the "he's a complete moron" vs "He's highly intelligent at covering up" debate.  There's no way he cleaned up everything if it was done on property.  If it was off property, surely they would've found something to collaborate with that.

I think the blood in the back of girl's car corroborates the off property.  I agree with cire the prosecution narrative sucks.  I think they were trying to create a narrative and the planting of evidence mumped up a more likely narrative.

so you think steven avery killed her off property and then drove her back onto his property to burn her ten feet away from his house and then park her car there?

[Dub]

There is no way that they cleaned all the physical evidence in the house based on the prosecution story of how the murder happened.

If they say that she had her throat cut and was shot in the home Steven effing Avery didn't clean all that crap up.

In all honestly, I think he likely killed her some other place.  The bullet muddied this a bit but I think that was planted

agree but that wasn't the prosecution narrative


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The whole things gets thrown off on the "he's a complete moron" vs "He's highly intelligent at covering up" debate.  There's no way he cleaned up everything if it was done on property.  If it was off property, surely they would've found something to collaborate with that.

I think the blood in the back of girl's car corroborates the off property.  I agree with cire the prosecution narrative sucks.  I think they were trying to create a narrative and the planting of evidence mumped up a more likely narrative.

so you think steven avery killed her off property and then drove her back onto his property to burn her ten feet away from his house and then park her car there?

Also.. if he did it off property, there's a lot of blood somewhere waiting to be found.

[ChiComCat]

The blood is waiting to be found wherever it is regardless of who did it unless he disposed of it amazingly well.

I think its more plausible that he killed her and moved her than the cops planting a bullet, DNA, key, car, and burned bone fragments.  They could probably get me to reasonable doubt on most of it but the burned bone fragments I struggle with.  I don't think they hit the blood/hair in the back of the car with as much detail as they should in the documentary.  Seems like someone pretty clearly moved her body back there and if Steven's grand plan was to burn it, I'm not sure he knows enough to be concerned about bone fragments.

[Dub]

The blood is waiting to be found wherever it is regardless of who did it unless he disposed of it amazingly well.

I think its more plausible that he killed her and moved her than the cops planting a bullet, DNA, key, car, and burned bone fragments.  They could probably get me to reasonable doubt on most of it but the burned bone fragments I struggle with.  I don't think they hit the blood/hair in the back of the car with as much detail as they should in the documentary.  Seems like someone pretty clearly moved her body back there and if Steven's grand plan was to burn it, I'm not sure he knows enough to be concerned about bone fragments.

This is where that argument comes in though.  He's smart enough to clean up blood/evidence off property but isn't on-property?  A good enough to clean the key but then leaves it in his dresser?  There's multiple instances that he's a "genius and moron"

[yoga-like_abana]

still have yet to watch this 

[Dr Rick Daris]

The blood is waiting to be found wherever it is regardless of who did it unless he disposed of it amazingly well.

I think its more plausible that he killed her and moved her than the cops planting a bullet, DNA, key, car, and burned bone fragments.  They could probably get me to reasonable doubt on most of it but the burned bone fragments I struggle with.  I don't think they hit the blood/hair in the back of the car with as much detail as they should in the documentary.  Seems like someone pretty clearly moved her body back there and if Steven's grand plan was to burn it, I'm not sure he knows enough to be concerned about bone fragments.

This is where that argument comes in though.  He's smart enough to clean up blood/evidence off property but isn't on-property?  A good enough to clean the key but then leaves it in his dresser?  There's multiple instances that he's a "genius and moron"

I'm with dub. To me it seems far more plausible that one of his other idiot family members did it off property and then framed Avery because they maybe thought they would get his money (30 million dollar lawsuit) if he was in jail or simply because they didn't want to split ownership of the salvage yard with him. it's just impossible for me to wrap my head around him being so amazingly great at some things and so amazingly terrible at others.

[Dub]

The blood is waiting to be found wherever it is regardless of who did it unless he disposed of it amazingly well.

I think its more plausible that he killed her and moved her than the cops planting a bullet, DNA, key, car, and burned bone fragments.  They could probably get me to reasonable doubt on most of it but the burned bone fragments I struggle with.  I don't think they hit the blood/hair in the back of the car with as much detail as they should in the documentary.  Seems like someone pretty clearly moved her body back there and if Steven's grand plan was to burn it, I'm not sure he knows enough to be concerned about bone fragments.

This is where that argument comes in though.  He's smart enough to clean up blood/evidence off property but isn't on-property?  A good enough to clean the key but then leaves it in his dresser?  There's multiple instances that he's a "genius and moron"

I'm with dub. To me it seems far more plausible that one of his other idiot family members did it off property and then framed Avery because they maybe thought they would get his money (30 million dollar lawsuit) if he was in jail or simply because they didn't want to split ownership of the salvage yard with him. it's just impossible for me to wrap my head around him being so amazingly great at some things and so amazingly terrible at others.

Also, can't remember his family member's name, but his nephew (?) that left to go hunting and "saw" the neighbor drive by as well and figured he would collaborate his alibi was weird and seemed off.  Seemed off that he acted like he overheard jokes when it wasn't him and threw his uncle under the bus ( ) all the sudden.

[ChiComCat]

Oh, I think the key was planted along with the bullet.  Some of the DNA and the car have the potential to be planted too.  I think the DA's office had to come up with a shitty narrative because they had to maintain the integrity of every piece of evidence.  I don't buy their narrative but that doesn't mean that I think he's innocent. 

I don't know that he is smart enough to clean up blood/evidence whether on or off property anyway.  If people think a lot of the evidence was planted by cops, a logical extension would be that they may have found the crime scene but preferred the narrative to be that she was killed at his salvage yard.  I think that he likely hastily cleaned it up and nobody who wasn't specifically looking for it would notice.

[pissclams]

something i read said that it would be very hard for avery to burn the body in the manner that they have suggested.  like, it would be hard to get the temps and how long it would take to basically incinerate her body.  gross stuff.

[Dr Rick Daris]

something i read said that it would be very hard for avery to burn the body in the manner that they have suggested.  like, it would be hard to get the temps and how long it would take to basically incinerate her body.  gross stuff.

his new lawyer suggested some of the same stuff. basically said that a fire that hot would have burned his house as well because of how close they were together. now we just wait for chicat to come back by and tell us that avery burned her somewhere else and just brought a bunch of her bones back to his property.

[ChiComCat]

something i read said that it would be very hard for avery to burn the body in the manner that they have suggested.  like, it would be hard to get the temps and how long it would take to basically incinerate her body.  gross stuff.

his new lawyer suggested some of the same stuff. basically said that a fire that hot would have burned his house as well because of how close they were together. now we just wait for chicat to come back by and tell us that avery burned her somewhere else and just brought a bunch of her bones back to his property.

If the body was moved after the burn, I can pretty easily decide innocent. At that point you have to think someone other than the cops is framing him.  Daris' theory of a family member would be pretty genius as that person is pretty much nailing both Steven and the cops at the same time.  He drops the key prior to the next cop search and boom, one of those two had to be responsible.

[Dub]

The thing is, you don't have to decide if they are innocent.  You are supposed to decide if they are not guilty.  Which is why it's amazing that they were both convicted.

[Dr Rick Daris]

something i read said that it would be very hard for avery to burn the body in the manner that they have suggested.  like, it would be hard to get the temps and how long it would take to basically incinerate her body.  gross stuff.

his new lawyer suggested some of the same stuff. basically said that a fire that hot would have burned his house as well because of how close they were together. now we just wait for chicat to come back by and tell us that avery burned her somewhere else and just brought a bunch of her bones back to his property.

If the body was moved after the burn, I can pretty easily decide innocent. At that point you have to think someone other than the cops is framing him.  Daris' theory of a family member would be pretty genius as that person is pretty much nailing both Steven and the cops at the same time.  He drops the key prior to the next cop search and boom, one of those two had to be responsible.

ummm, you might want to read this....

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/making-a-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-on-the-evidence-left-out-20160115

[Cire]

yeah, the burden of proof should be more than the coerced confession of a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) person.

[Dr Rick Daris]

something i read said that it would be very hard for avery to burn the body in the manner that they have suggested.  like, it would be hard to get the temps and how long it would take to basically incinerate her body.  gross stuff.

his new lawyer suggested some of the same stuff. basically said that a fire that hot would have burned his house as well because of how close they were together. now we just wait for chicat to come back by and tell us that avery burned her somewhere else and just brought a bunch of her bones back to his property.

If the body was moved after the burn, I can pretty easily decide innocent. At that point you have to think someone other than the cops is framing him.  Daris' theory of a family member would be pretty genius as that person is pretty much nailing both Steven and the cops at the same time.  He drops the key prior to the next cop search and boom, one of those two had to be responsible.

ummm, you might want to read this....

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/making-a-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-on-the-evidence-left-out-20160115

quick summary for those that don't click and read... most of Theresa halbach's bones were found in a burn pit right next to steven Avery's house. some of Theresa halbach's bones were found in a burn barrel by bobby dassey's house which was about 100 yards away. they know that these belonged to Theresa halbach because there was tissue still attached that they could test. in addition to those two sites...one mile away in gravel quarry, a burn site was found that had a human female pelvic bone in it.  they could not determine who the bone belonged to because there was no tissue attached to test. an expert testified that the found pelvic bone did appear to have the same type of degree and pattern of burning/calcination as the ones that were found in the burn barrel behind the Dassey house and the burn pit behind Steven Avery's house.

so either avery did it in his burn pit right by his house like the prosecuation said and then went and put a small amount in a barrel over by the dassey house and possibly (probably) a small amount in a gravel quarry burn site one mile away -OR- and get ready for this mind blowing possibility... somebody burned her at the gravel sight, loaded up 99% of it into the dassey's burn barrel and then dumped 97% of that into steven Avery's burn pit.

[Dub]

something i read said that it would be very hard for avery to burn the body in the manner that they have suggested.  like, it would be hard to get the temps and how long it would take to basically incinerate her body.  gross stuff.

his new lawyer suggested some of the same stuff. basically said that a fire that hot would have burned his house as well because of how close they were together. now we just wait for chicat to come back by and tell us that avery burned her somewhere else and just brought a bunch of her bones back to his property.

If the body was moved after the burn, I can pretty easily decide innocent. At that point you have to think someone other than the cops is framing him.  Daris' theory of a family member would be pretty genius as that person is pretty much nailing both Steven and the cops at the same time.  He drops the key prior to the next cop search and boom, one of those two had to be responsible.

ummm, you might want to read this....

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/making-a-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-on-the-evidence-left-out-20160115

quick summary for those that don't click and read... most of Theresa halbach's bones were found in a burn pit right next to steven Avery's house. some of Theresa halbach's bones were found in a burn barrel by bobby dassey's house which was about 100 yards away. they know that these belonged to Theresa halbach because there was tissue still attached that they could test. in addition to those two sites...one mile away in gravel quarry, a burn site was found that had a human pelvic bone in it. they could not determine who the bone belonged to because there was no tissue attached to test.

so either avery did it in his burn pit right by his house like the prosecuation said and then went and put a small amount in a barrel over by the dassey house and possibly (probably) a small amount in a gravel quarry burn site one mile away -OR- somebody burned her at the gravel sight, loaded up 99% of it into the dassey's burn barrel and then dumped 95% of that into steven Avery's burn pit.

Also mentioned body was burned all at one site because there was a mix of different bones at each site, not certain areas of the body at each.  And had an expert say that the burn pit would have to be running hot for 12-15 hours in order to produce the kind of burn it did.

[Dr Rick Daris]

I mean if I'm steven avery and I just killed somebody, I'm going to burn her and then put 96% of her bones in a pit right next to my house, 3% in a barrel outside the dassey house and then one random bone at a gravel quarry about a mile away because that just makes sense. a regular steven avery appleseed, that guy was.

[ChiComCat]

something i read said that it would be very hard for avery to burn the body in the manner that they have suggested.  like, it would be hard to get the temps and how long it would take to basically incinerate her body.  gross stuff.

his new lawyer suggested some of the same stuff. basically said that a fire that hot would have burned his house as well because of how close they were together. now we just wait for chicat to come back by and tell us that avery burned her somewhere else and just brought a bunch of her bones back to his property.

If the body was moved after the burn, I can pretty easily decide innocent. At that point you have to think someone other than the cops is framing him.  Daris' theory of a family member would be pretty genius as that person is pretty much nailing both Steven and the cops at the same time.  He drops the key prior to the next cop search and boom, one of those two had to be responsible.

ummm, you might want to read this....

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/making-a-murderer-steven-averys-lawyer-on-the-evidence-left-out-20160115

Had not seen that.  I think given that I likely would've been in the not guilty camp.

[Dr Rick Daris]

another weird thing that makes no sense and should bother any sane person-

the key and key fob that were found in steven Avery's house only had steven Avery's dna on it. so in addition to spreading two very small amounts of her cremated body in two different locations away from his house... he also took her key chain, scrubbed it completely to remove her dna and then touched it a bunch more to put his dna on it and then put it out in the open on the floor of his bedroom because yeah, that's exactly what somebody would do -OR- and this one is really going to smack you around a bit. maybe, avery wasn't the killer and someone else parked halbach's vehicle ther, then scrubbed the key to make sure their dna was not on it and then rubbed it a bit on Avery's bedspread or dirty tshirt and then left it in his house where it would be found.

[meow meow]

Rick, did you get promoted to Detective at the RCPD?