goemaw.com
TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: kso_FAN on January 27, 2015, 10:00:12 PM
-
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg661%2F4209%2F6LybfD.png&hash=4692a3e720b090553dcde297e3195e370b8aa22d)
oscar sometimes likes to throw around the term punked, and that would be appropriate for tonight's game. "Thrown around" would be pretty appropriate as well, considering the number of times K-State threw the ball away (or didn't throw it all). Huggins brought his tough-minded team into the Octagon of Doom (and it was pretty OODish tonight) and out fought the Wildcats for a crushing home loss.
Of course anytime you turn the ball over 1/3 of the time you have major problems and as a result tons of possessions were wasted. It was clear the gameplan was to be deliberate so as not to make mistakes that led directly to WVU points and the Cats actually outscored WVU on points off of turnovers 12-11. K-State also won fast break points 17-8. Still, the wasted possessions because K-State couldn't even get the ball in were mind numbing and despite the wretched offense, it would've been nice to see the Cats in the half court.
Then there are categories that the Cats seemingly won, namely oboarding and FT rate. But each of these comes with a disclaimer, because it wasn't so much what the K-State gained, but what they did with it. For example, the first half saw K-State win OR% 41-22% (9 oboards to 4), yet WVU outscored KSU on 2nd chance points 9 to 2. So everytime WVU got an oboard they converted and K-State managed to turn 9 offensive boards into 2 points. In the 2nd half WVU flipped it 42-27% (8 to 4), however K-State scored even with WVU 5-5 off of those oboards. Still, the net loss of 14-7 is a huge factor in a 6 point loss. The Cats had been solid on 2PT% lately, but were held to under 40% against WVU's length and K-State will not win games with that shooting, especially with no outside threat besides Marcus.
Finally the FT line and K-State not taking advantage of 2nd half opportunities. Despite a healthy FT rate differential for the half and the game, WVU still outscored the Cats by 1 point on FTs. With the way WVU fouls, FTs are an area you have to take advantage of against them and K-State failed miserably in that regard tonight.
Finally, the Cats had to have guys step up with the loss of Nino so early in the game. (and its idiotic to say losing Nino wasn't a huge factor considering how he had been playing) However, guys like Edwards and Hurt came out on the floor and completely caved against WVU's pressure. As a result the only way were going to win was a huge night from either Marcus or Gip and we got neither.
As a result the Cats suffered a devastating loss after barely bringing their season back onto life support from the dregs that were December. Even worse, up next is a trip to Lawrence with 5 of the next 7 on the road.
-
You're pretty good at this... :thumbs:
-
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg661%2F4209%2F6LybfD.png&hash=4692a3e720b090553dcde297e3195e370b8aa22d)
oscar sometimes likes to throw around the term punked, and that would be appropriate for tonight's game. "Thrown around" would be pretty appropriate as well, considering the number of times K-State threw the ball away (or didn't throw it all). Huggins brought his tough-minded team into the Octagon of Doom (and it was pretty OODish tonight) and out fought the Wildcats for a crushing home loss.
Of course anytime you turn the ball over 1/3 of the time you have major problems and as a result tons of possessions were wasted. It was clear the gameplan was to be deliberate so as not to make mistakes that led directly to WVU points and the Cats actually outscored WVU on points off of turnovers 12-11. K-State also won fast break points 17-8. Still, the wasted possessions because K-State couldn't even get the ball in were mind numbing and despite the wretched offense, it would've been nice to see the Cats in the half court.
Then there are categories that the Cats seemingly won, namely oboarding and FT rate. But each of these comes with a disclaimer, because it wasn't so much what the K-State gained, but what they did with it. For example, the first half saw K-State win OR% 41-22% (9 oboards to 4), yet WVU outscored KSU on 2nd chance points 9 to 2. So everytime WVU got an oboard they converted and K-State managed to turn 9 offensive boards into 2 points. In the 2nd half WVU flipped it 42-27% (8 to 4), however K-State scored even with WVU 5-5 off of those oboards. Still, the net loss of 14-7 is a huge factor in a 6 point loss. The Cats had been solid on 2PT% lately, but were held to under 40% against WVU's length and K-State will not win games with that shooting, especially with no outside threat besides Marcus.
Finally the FT line and K-State not taking advantage of 2nd half opportunities. Despite a healthy FT rate differential for the half and the game, WVU still outscored the Cats by 1 point on FTs. With the way WVU fouls, FTs are an area you have to take advantage of against them and K-State failed miserably in that regard tonight.
Finally, the Cats had to have guys step up with the loss of Nino so early in the game. (and its idiotic to say losing Nino wasn't a huge factor considering how he had been playing) However, guys like Edwards and Hurt came out on the floor and completely caved against WVU's pressure. As a result the only way were going to win was a huge night from either Marcus or Gip and we got neither.
As a result the Cats suffered a devastating loss after barely bringing their season back onto life support from the dregs that were December. Even worse, up next is a trip to Lawrence with 5 of the next 7 on the road.
eFG% of 39.8 percent against WVU is pathetic. AT HOME. When team that spreads its pressure out to the extreme you have to get easy buckets. Need to hit free throws. If we had 20 turnovers I would of been ecstatic.
I hope nino is health, half court offense went to crap in the second half. He helps with motion but our ball handers were getting pushed too far away from the rim. Ball screen offense is terrible, our personnel doesn't fit it. Best way to handle pressure.
Nothing from Edwards also killed us.
-
1. Of our first 30 shots (7-30 FG) we missed 10 lay ups and 2 tip in shots ....this according to the play by play. 12 shots inside 3-4 feet missed.....Really :Ugh:
2. We had about 8-9 TOs where we didn't have the ball for 1 second ( countless dumb lob passes up for grabs.. Plus 5 sec calls and Foster traveling on baseline inbound)
3. Everyone still hates on Jevon, but we got 2 FGs on 7 Att and 4 TOs from our 40 min of Gip/Hurt.
4. We allow .84 PPP at home and lose
----just 4 pathetic reasons on why we blew a chance to win.
-
plus 15 missed free throws.
-
plus 15 missed free throws.
More specifically 10-22 in the 2nd half. We shoot 62.5 eFG% and get 22 FTAs in the 2nd half.... Yet still failed to get 1.00 on PPP (we were .93).
-
I'll bet we didn't even win the try hards. :bang:
-
I mean WV TOed the ball over 1/4 of their possessions, made just over 1/3 of their shots, lost the OR battle, and they were almost 20% lower on FTR than we were....
And they won on our home court. :(
-
Huggins teams like tonight's are a joy to watch. The way he gets teams to play as hard as they do is amazing.
Also, did we ever set a single screen on a backcourt out of bounds? My God, oscar. WV deserves a ton of credit, but sweet Christ try something different in the second half.
-
Huggins teams like tonight's are a joy to watch. The way he gets teams to play as hard as they do is amazing.
Also, did we ever set a single screen on a backcourt out of bounds? My God, oscar. WV deserves a ton of credit, but sweet Christ try something different in the second half.
No we didn't :curse:
-
I'll bet we didn't even win the try hards. :bang:
We played extremely hard, just not well.
Losing Niño was a killer; hope it is not a Travis Green injury.
I think Nigel was way too tentative upon breaking the press.
Also, the lack of finishers at the rim was problematic.
As usual, Jevon and Weber are getting too much blame for this loss.
We lost a dogfight against a great team when we lost our best player (lately) to an injury. It happens. This league is a grind.
-
a great team
-
I'll bet we didn't even win the try hards. :bang:
We played extremely hard, just not well.
Losing Niño was a killer; hope it is not a Travis Green injury.
I think Nigel was way too tentative upon breaking the press.
Also, the lack of finishers at the rim was problematic.
As usual, Jevon and Weber are getting too much blame for this loss.
We lost a dogfight against a great team when we lost our best player (lately) to an injury. It happens. This league is a grind.
you're a rough ridin' idiot
-
I am pretty sure it's just Nino, no ñ. Can we get an official ruling on this?
-
I missed playing the way huggs team does
-
I am pretty sure it's just Nino, no ñ. Can we get an official ruling on this?
Yes, I have no idea why my phone does that. (Used to do "Sams" as "SAMs," too.)
-
I am pretty sure it's just Nino, no ñ. Can we get an official ruling on this?
Yes, I have no idea why my phone does that. (Used to do "Sams" as "SAMs," too.)
because both those things are awesome
-
Huggins teams like tonight's are a joy to watch. The way he gets teams to play as hard as they do is amazing.
Also, did we ever set a single screen on a backcourt out of bounds? My God, oscar. WV deserves a ton of credit, but sweet Christ try something different in the second half.
Yes we did. It was in the second half.
It was a bad sign when we immediately turned the ball over because of the technical and Marcus tried to run the baseline. You can tell we had a game plan going in, but it was undermined from the first minute and
I knew the in-bounds would be an issue but it was terribly frustrating to watch:
1) We ate several 5 second calls with no timeout. oscar needed to call one on the first close count to calm the team down and reiterate the game plan. At least the second time you stop the panic.
2) We ran maybe 3 deep throws and WVU was very aggressively fronting our in bounders every time. I know they are guarding the in-bounder, but you have so much space to throw it and you only have to connect a few times in a row to change the pressure.
3) We needed to punish them on the 2 and 3 on 1's. Our spacing was awful, we were tentative with the ball (more than normal) and we did not attack the rim. Wes and Marcus were the only ones to do it in transition, Jevon did ok in the half court.
4) We had way too many times when our guards were trapped two or three feet in to the court with no dribble and no help.
5) The Big Meat backcourt throw off the guys leg for a dunk made me actually LOL. I mean it was a completely inexplicable meltdown. Worse than even Nigel's meltdown in the backcourt. That stretch he had by the way led to 6 points and should've given them the ball when he pushed a WVU player out of bounds before getting yanked.
It was a really poor performance. We actually did not have
-
Well, they weren't very good at setting screens then. I thought I saw a couple of screen attempts but they may have instead been part of our "have three guys run around like chickens with their head cut off" strategy we seemed to implement for most of the game.
-
Well, they weren't very good at setting screens then. I thought I saw a couple of screen attempts but they may have instead been part of our "have three guys run around like chickens with their head cut off" strategy we seemed to implement for most of the game.
Yes, it was pretty bad. They seemed to be particularly upset with Edwards cutting/screening when he was in the game. But no one was particularly good at it. I did like our sideline OB in the backcourt with 4 across cutting from the opposite sideline. It worked well, but our underneath OB to break pressure was pretty terrible.
-
I'll bet we didn't even win the try hards. :bang:
IF we didn't, oscar is going to throw someone under his bus
-
I think we messed up the press by sending too many guys to retrieve the end-bounds pass, which resulted in congestion.
Next time we play them, I would send all but Jevon towards our basket. Jevon is so quick that nobody can prevent him from getting the in-bounds pass, assuming Jevon has the entire court to work with and our in-bounder does a good job of running the baseline. If they bring two to double team, then you can race somebody back to help, and he will likely be open.
It was a cluster down there last night. I'm sure Weber will make this adjustment next time.
One other point: Our two point guards are sophomores, and our 2 and our 3 are sophomores. Last night reminded me of the Iowa State game. Our young guards just got a little tentative in reacting to a high-stress environment. We will win these games next year when our perimeters guys are a little older, tougher, and more mature.
-
One other point: Our two point guards are sophomores, and our 2 and our 3 are sophomores. Last night reminded me of the Iowa State game. Our young guards just got a little tentative in reacting to a high-stress environment. We will win these games next year when our perimeters guys are a little older, tougher, and more mature.
We will win these games when these 2 are booted off the team and replaced with someone who doesn't rough ridin' suck
-
rough ridin' everyone in college basketball is young, they're in college
-
I'm just sitting here laughing trying to think what would have happened if Frank said "Do not try to throw some rough ridin' hail marry inbounds pass" and our players did it 5 times. The rage would have been incredible.
Also, Frank's players would not have thrown that pass because he specifically told them not to.
-
I'm just sitting here laughing trying to think what would have happened if Frank said "Do not try to throw some rough ridin' hail marry inbounds pass" and our players did it 5 times. The rage would have been incredible.
Also, Frank's players would not have thrown that pass because he specifically told them not to.
He wouldn't have put them in that position because they would have been prepared for the press. I never recall having that much trouble with a press, even under oscar. As I've been saying, though, WVU deserves a ton of credit. Fun team to watch.
-
I'm just sitting here laughing trying to think what would have happened if Frank said "Do not try to throw some rough ridin' hail marry inbounds pass" and our players did it 5 times. The rage would have been incredible.
Also, Frank's players would not have thrown that pass because he specifically told them not to.
He wouldn't have put them in that position because they would have been prepared for the press. I never recall having that much trouble with a press, even under oscar. As I've been saying, though, WVU deserves a ton of credit. Fun team to watch.
nebraska just scored again on a backdoor cut
-
And I think with a little work, this team would be far better playing at a faster pace. It's a great way to hide the fact that no one can shoot.
-
And I think with a little work, this team would be far better playing at a faster pace. It's a great way to hide the fact that no one can shoot.
It sure is...
-
And I think with a little work, this team would be far better playing at a faster pace. It's a great way to hide the fact that no one can shoot.
absolutely this, biggest frustration with this coaching staff for me
On a similar note, how stupid was Huggins last night and all coaches that tell their players not to take open layups at the end of games? I honestly can't think of a more stupid thing that coaches do across sports. Do you have to be poor at math and probability to be a college basketball coach?
-
I think playing faster would magnify our dreadful decision making and poor point guard play.
Also, I'm pretty sure Huggs wanted his guys to score on a couple of those late run outs. He seemed to be coaching them that way after they got fouled.
-
And I think with a little work, this team would be far better playing at a faster pace. It's a great way to hide the fact that no one can shoot.
absolutely this, biggest frustration with this coaching staff for me
On a similar note, how stupid was Huggins last night and all coaches that tell their players not to take open layups at the end of games? I honestly can't think of a more stupid thing that coaches do across sports. Do you have to be poor at math and probability to be a college basketball coach?
To quote Frank Martin, "stats are for losers"
-
I think playing faster would magnify our dreadful decision making and poor point guard play.
I think it would hide it. The whole point of running transition is to create disarray for the defense.
And like I said, if they worked on transition decision making instead of calling a set and dribbling at the circle for 20 seconds you might see an overall improvement uh decision making.
-
I think playing faster would magnify our dreadful decision making and poor point guard play.
Also, I'm pretty sure Huggs wanted his guys to score on a couple of those late run outs. He seemed to be coaching them that way after they got fouled.
On both of them Stan said that he yelled for the players to pull the ball out.
-
And I think with a little work, this team would be far better playing at a faster pace. It's a great way to hide the fact that no one can shoot.
absolutely this, biggest frustration with this coaching staff for me
On a similar note, how stupid was Huggins last night and all coaches that tell their players not to take open layups at the end of games? I honestly can't think of a more stupid thing that coaches do across sports. Do you have to be poor at math and probability to be a college basketball coach?
To quote Frank Martin, "stats are for losers"
That's "stats R 4 Losers" on his twitter.
-
I think playing faster would magnify our dreadful decision making and poor point guard play.
I think it would hide it. The whole point of running transition is to create disarray for the defense.
And like I said, if they worked on transition decision making instead of calling a set and dribbling at the circle for 20 seconds you might see an overall improvement uh decision making.
Also, our guys are pretty terrible at finishing in transition if even a little bit of pressure is put on the shot. Like as bad as I can remember any K-State team.
-
I think playing faster would magnify our dreadful decision making and poor point guard play.
I think it would hide it. The whole point of running transition is to create disarray for the defense.
And like I said, if they worked on transition decision making instead of calling a set and dribbling at the circle for 20 seconds you might see an overall improvement uh decision making.
Yeah I think playing faster will lessen the burden on the point guards. I mean oscar is playing a line up where 4 of the guys can get themselves to the rim from the 3 point stripe. While none of the guys are adept ball handlers and decision makers, I think we could be fairly capable with lets say Nino, Justin, or Marcus with the ball on the wing in what equates to a 3-on-3 and just getting someone in the lane instead of running offense for 30 seconds and then either dumping the ball to Gip or throwing up a low percentage shot.
-
I think playing faster would magnify our dreadful decision making and poor point guard play.
I think it would hide it. The whole point of running transition is to create disarray for the defense.
And like I said, if they worked on transition decision making instead of calling a set and dribbling at the circle for 20 seconds you might see an overall improvement uh decision making.
Also, our guys are pretty terrible at finishing in transition if even a little bit of pressure is put on the shot. Like as bad as I can remember any K-State team.
A missed shot in transition is better than just about any other result you could expect from point guards.
And Foster, Edwards, Wes, and Nino are fine at finishing in transition. I think their games are all better suited for a faster pace, especially Edwards and Wes. Plus it would create more looks for Foster from 3.
-
I think playing faster would magnify our dreadful decision making and poor point guard play.
I think it would hide it. The whole point of running transition is to create disarray for the defense.
And like I said, if they worked on transition decision making instead of calling a set and dribbling at the circle for 20 seconds you might see an overall improvement uh decision making.
Also, our guys are pretty terrible at finishing in transition if even a little bit of pressure is put on the shot. Like as bad as I can remember any K-State team.
Correct but our half court offense is worse. I think Edwards and Foster would be like 100x better in a faster pace. The PGs might be bad but I think it suits the better players; Williams, Edwards, Foster, on the team.
-
Wes is built to run
-
yep
We have a fairly athletic team but we play like a valley team full of 2 star jump shooters
-
yep
We have a fairly athletic team but we play like a valley team full of 2 star jump shooters
The funny thing is oscar's valley teams ran like crazy, he didn't slow it down until Illinois, and part of that was dictated by the pace of the league.
Also, we started out this season playing at a pace in the upper 60s through the first 8 games. It wasn't until we were 4-4 after the loss to Tennessee that we started slowing it down. I don't think this staff thought we could win by playing high pace basketball.
-
We speed it up we turn the ball over, we slow it down we can't shoot. Seems like a roster problem not a X & O problem.
-
We speed it up we turn the ball over, we slow it down we can't shoot. Seems like a roster problem not a X & O problem.
We turn it over in the half court, too. I mean, we play at such a slow pace it's crazy to blame our bad TO rate on transition
-
yep
We have a fairly athletic team but we play like a valley team full of 2 star jump shooters
The funny thing is oscar's valley teams ran like crazy, he didn't slow it down until Illinois, and part of that was dictated by the pace of the league.
Also, we started out this season playing at a pace in the upper 60s through the first 8 games. It wasn't until we were 4-4 after the loss to Tennessee that we started slowing it down. I don't think this staff thought we could win by playing high pace basketball.
One of the reason we slowed it down deals with our shitty depth. Hurt can't run, Bolden can't play and apparently Tre is not ready. Nigel can't penetrate, I don't know what long term value he has. I want him to move on. But I don't know who we ran replace him with, spring recruiting is the worst.
-
This roster actually seems like it would be really well suited for Huggy/Frank's style. I think if pressure defense/rebounding/pushing the ball were the main focus of practice, then this team could be very JYC. If we were content to let the few decent shooters we have just jack up shots and then let Edwards/Wes/Nino/Bolden go get it off the rim, then our offense would actually be much more effective than it is right now. Also, our players were born to run as Mich pointed out, and it would be nice to see our players play the passing lanes a bit more and take some more gambles on defense so that we can get out in the open floor a little bit more. Watching this team run the motion offense makes we want to rip my eyeballs out.
-
we just need to run a 1-4 flat every time down the court. defend that "coach" bill self.
-
we just need to run a 1-4 flat every time down the court. defend that "coach" bill self.
Yep, that worked very well the last 6 minutes of the ISU game.
-
oh crap, did we run that during the last 6 minutes of the ISU game? i'm an idiot, never mind the 1-4 flat suggesto.
-
i don't know- maybe try a 1-4 high set then. i'm running out of ideas but will continue to brainstorm, slow day at the office.
-
I say we run the 3-2 scramble
-
I say we run the 3-2 scramble
love it, -it might work against the hawks, those guys hate to defend. great suggesto and might be more effective the the 1-4 flat and 1-4 high combined LOL
-
I'm just sitting here laughing trying to think what would have happened if Frank said "Do not try to throw some rough ridin' hail marry inbounds pass" and our players did it 5 times. The rage would have been incredible.
Also, Frank's players would not have thrown that pass because he specifically told them not to.
He wouldn't have put them in that position because they would have been prepared for the press. I never recall having that much trouble with a press, even under oscar. As I've been saying, though, WVU deserves a ton of credit. Fun team to watch.
nebraska just scored again on a backdoor cut
:lol:
-
All for the faster pace. Looked really good against ISU(eye test). That was one of the most entertaining games of the season for us, imo. Even with an L.
-
I'll bet we didn't even win the try hards. :bang:
We played extremely hard, just not well.
Losing Niño was a killer; hope it is not a Travis Green injury.
I think Nigel was way too tentative upon breaking the press.
Also, the lack of finishers at the rim was problematic.
As usual, Jevon and Weber are getting too much blame for this loss.
We lost a dogfight against a great team when we lost our best player (lately) to an injury. It happens. This league is a grind.
you're a rough ridin' idiot
My thoughts exactly.
-
I did miss the I-State game, so maybe that was a moment where we ran and it worked, but, in general, I tend to think speeding things up would be terrible. West Virginia sped us up at times and it was disastrous. Decision-making when playing faster will only be worse with the group of brainiacs we have on this team. Who has the handles and ability to finish? Marcus. Anyone else? Maybe Edwards. Jevon can't finish but has the quickness to get to the rim. Wes would work well in a fast paced offense I think, but he can't be trusted to handle the rock, we need better guard play to make him effective in that context. On top of all this, we need a deeper team if we want to run. It works for Huggins because he plays 11 guys fairly often. Face the facts, we're oscar-ing this offense. It'll be slow and methodical.
-
I did miss the I-State game, so maybe that was a moment where we ran and it worked, but, in general, I tend to think speeding things up would be terrible. West Virginia sped us up at times and it was disastrous. Decision-making when playing faster will only be worse with the group of brainiacs we have on this team. Who has the handles and ability to finish? Marcus. Anyone else? Maybe Edwards. Jevon can't finish but has the quickness to get to the rim. Wes would work well in a fast paced offense I think, but he can't be trusted to handle the rock, we need better guard play to make him effective in that context. On top of all this, we need a deeper team if we want to run. It works for Huggins because he plays 11 guys fairly often. Face the facts, we're oscar-ing this offense. It'll be slow and methodical.
I agree with you completely.
I think the problems with speeding things up would be even more dramatic on defense. I'm sure we'd be more efficient on offense at a faster pace, but the defensive problems would be even more dramatic. At this point in his career I don't think oscar has a system that is going to work at a pace in the high 60s or low 70s.
-
I don't think playing fast against WVU is the same as playing fast against other teams, because they are dictating who gets the ball where. I think every single one of our players except Gip and Hurt are made less effective in dribble the ball around the perimeter for 20 seconds offense. Nino has shown flashes in transition, and Wes, Edwards, and Foster would clearly benefit. I even think Jevon would help us because maybe he would shoot it every now and then - get ahead of the defense and create OR opportunities.
And pace on offense does not equal pace on defense - if anything a fast pace results in fewer players in your front court and somewhat reduces the other teams' ability to run. WVU's pace all comes from the defensive end, while a team like UNC gets it all from the offensive end. fun fact: Iowa State is actually 2nd in offensive possession length and 323 in defensive possession length.
-
It's also worth noting that Jevon has the worst TO Rate of any regular-playing KSU Cat since Clent in 2006 and 2005 (no one else even comes close to being as bad as Jevon). It would be very, very hard for Jevon to get any worse in that department. I would guess a lot of his current turnovers would turn into missed shots in a faster offensive pace, if anything.
Transition offense doesn't require some special skillset that our players lack. I mean, you people act like a motion offense doesn't require "handles" or "decision making".
-
the best way for jevon to get better at basketball is for jevon to quit playing basketball. true story
-
It's also worth noting that Jevon has the worst TO Rate of any regular-playing KSU Cat since Clent in 2006 and 2005 (no one else even comes close to being as bad as Jevon). It would be very, very hard for Jevon to get any worse in that department. I would guess a lot of his current turnovers would turn into missed shots in a faster offensive pace, if anything.
Transition offense doesn't require some special skillset that our players lack. I mean, you people act like a motion offense doesn't require "handles" or "decision making".
Yeah, I don't get the sense that our players are just turnover prone, and that faster pace would automatically exacerbate that problem. I get the feeling that several of our players do not have a good grasp on all the minutia of oscar's motion offense, and that uncertainty and overthinking are causing them to be hesitant and timid, which is obviously going to result in a bunch of turnovers at this level of basketball. Let them get some shots up, crash the boards, and run a little bit. This team needs confidence, and slowing things down and asking them to do things they're not comfortable doing is probably not going to help very much with that. oscar is very inflexible and that needs to change if he's ever going to avoid these giants peaks and valleys he seems to experience.
-
It's also worth noting that Jevon has the worst TO Rate of any regular-playing KSU Cat since Clent in 2006 and 2005 (no one else even comes close to being as bad as Jevon). It would be very, very hard for Jevon to get any worse in that department. I would guess a lot of his current turnovers would turn into missed shots in a faster offensive pace, if anything.
Transition offense doesn't require some special skillset that our players lack. I mean, you people act like a motion offense doesn't require "handles" or "decision making".
Yeah, I don't get the sense that our players are just turnover prone, and that faster pace would automatically exacerbate that problem. I get the feeling that several of our players do not have a good grasp on all the minutia of oscar's motion offense, and that uncertainty and overthinking are causing them to be hesitant and timid, which is obviously going to result in a bunch of turnovers at this level of basketball. Let them get some shots up, crash the boards, and run a little bit. This team needs confidence, and slowing things down and asking them to do things they're not comfortable doing is probably not going to help very much with that. oscar is very inflexible and that needs to change if he's ever going to avoid these giants peaks and valleys he seems to experience.
This is probably true, though oscar's teams have had some variety in pace over the years with a few upper 60s seasons mixed in with mainly mid 60s. The lower 60s as we've seen this year and his first year here are more rare.
Again, I think the lower pace was a deliberate decision with this team after we started the season mainly at a higher pace and were 4-4. Of course we also had our worst stretch of the season playing slower, but I think in early December this staff made a specific decision to focus on slowing the pace and playing better defense.
I don't think this team would be any better playing at a high pace.
-
It's also worth noting that Jevon has the worst TO Rate of any regular-playing KSU Cat since Clent in 2006 and 2005 (no one else even comes close to being as bad as Jevon). It would be very, very hard for Jevon to get any worse in that department. I would guess a lot of his current turnovers would turn into missed shots in a faster offensive pace, if anything.
Transition offense doesn't require some special skillset that our players lack. I mean, you people act like a motion offense doesn't require "handles" or "decision making".
Yeah, I don't get the sense that our players are just turnover prone, and that faster pace would automatically exacerbate that problem. I get the feeling that several of our players do not have a good grasp on all the minutia of oscar's motion offense, and that uncertainty and overthinking are causing them to be hesitant and timid, which is obviously going to result in a bunch of turnovers at this level of basketball. Let them get some shots up, crash the boards, and run a little bit. This team needs confidence, and slowing things down and asking them to do things they're not comfortable doing is probably not going to help very much with that. oscar is very inflexible and that needs to change if he's ever going to avoid these giants peaks and valleys he seems to experience.
This is probably true, though oscar's teams have had some variety in pace over the years with a few upper 60s seasons mixed in with mainly mid 60s. The lower 60s as we've seen this year and his first year here are more rare.
Again, I think the lower pace was a deliberate decision with this team after we started the season mainly at a higher pace and were 4-4. Of course we also had our worst stretch of the season playing slower, but I think in early December this staff made a specific decision to focus on slowing the pace and playing better defense.
What's great about this theory is Pitt was by far the slowest game of the 8 and the 4 wins were the 4 fastest games.
-
I'm just looking at the trends this season of when the pace of our games slowed, though maybe there are none there. I knew you'd bring up the Pitt example when I posted that, but after the Tennessee game is when we consistently slowed the pace. It could just be the teams we played slowed the pace or made it faster without much impact on our part.
At the end of the day, this is all oscar being oscar with his philosophy. His teams have consistently played at a mid-60s pace the majority of his career and if anything he's slowed down since he's been at K-State. Of course can discuss that we "should" play at a higher pace, but the reality of the situation is that its not going to happen. Maybe it will cost oscar his job here, I don't know. I just have no expectation that we're going to see oscar roll out a team that regularly plays at 70 possessions any time soon. I'm sure part of his excuse for the problems with this year's team would be teaching a bunch of young guards to play his system at his pace and in the end most of that is on him for recruiting those players for this system.
-
I wouldn't be surprised at all if oscar thought the problem after a 4-4 start was dude to playing to fast, nor do I expect him to change anything he does.
-
I wouldn't be surprised at all if oscar thought the problem after a 4-4 start was dude to playing to fast, nor do I expect him to change anything he does.
Coaches are stubborn people. The pace that Hugg is playing at the last couple years is a good example of someone changing their system quite a bit.
Do you find oscar to be a bad coach or just mediocre?
-
I wouldn't be surprised at all if oscar thought the problem after a 4-4 start was dude to playing to fast, nor do I expect him to change anything he does.
Coaches are stubborn people. The pace that Hugg is playing at the last couple years is a good example of someone changing their system quite a bit.
Do you find oscar to be a bad coach or just mediocre?
Coach k has played zone this year, too.
I think oscar is an average coach at this level. I hate his defensive philosophy but it works great against teams at an average and below level. I think his offense is far too rigid, but that hardly makes him unique among college coaches.
-
I wouldn't be surprised at all if oscar thought the problem after a 4-4 start was dude to playing to fast, nor do I expect him to change anything he does.
Coaches are stubborn people. The pace that Hugg is playing at the last couple years is a good example of someone changing their system quite a bit.
Do you find oscar to be a bad coach or just mediocre?
Coach k has played zone this year, too.
I think oscar is an average coach at this level. I hate his defensive philosophy but it works great against teams at an average and below level. I think his offense is far too rigid, but that hardly makes him unique among college coaches.
Yeah, Coach K and zone is pretty great.
-
It's also worth noting that Jevon has the worst TO Rate of any regular-playing KSU Cat since Clent in 2006 and 2005 (no one else even comes close to being as bad as Jevon). It would be very, very hard for Jevon to get any worse in that department. I would guess a lot of his current turnovers would turn into missed shots in a faster offensive pace, if anything.
Transition offense doesn't require some special skillset that our players lack. I mean, you people act like a motion offense doesn't require "handles" or "decision making".
Yeah, I don't get the sense that our players are just turnover prone, and that faster pace would automatically exacerbate that problem. I get the feeling that several of our players do not have a good grasp on all the minutia of oscar's motion offense, and that uncertainty and overthinking are causing them to be hesitant and timid, which is obviously going to result in a bunch of turnovers at this level of basketball. Let them get some shots up, crash the boards, and run a little bit. This team needs confidence, and slowing things down and asking them to do things they're not comfortable doing is probably not going to help very much with that. oscar is very inflexible and that needs to change if he's ever going to avoid these giants peaks and valleys he seems to experience.
This is probably true, though oscar's teams have had some variety in pace over the years with a few upper 60s seasons mixed in with mainly mid 60s. The lower 60s as we've seen this year and his first year here are more rare.
Again, I think the lower pace was a deliberate decision with this team after we started the season mainly at a higher pace and were 4-4. Of course we also had our worst stretch of the season playing slower, but I think in early December this staff made a specific decision to focus on slowing the pace and playing better defense.
What's great about this theory is Pitt was by far the slowest game of the 8 and the 4 wins were the 4 fastest games.
I think I'd be for a faster pace if we had a rim protector defensively.
-
It's also worth noting that Jevon has the worst TO Rate of any regular-playing KSU Cat since Clent in 2006 and 2005 (no one else even comes close to being as bad as Jevon). It would be very, very hard for Jevon to get any worse in that department. I would guess a lot of his current turnovers would turn into missed shots in a faster offensive pace, if anything.
Transition offense doesn't require some special skillset that our players lack. I mean, you people act like a motion offense doesn't require "handles" or "decision making".
Yeah, I don't get the sense that our players are just turnover prone, and that faster pace would automatically exacerbate that problem. I get the feeling that several of our players do not have a good grasp on all the minutia of oscar's motion offense, and that uncertainty and overthinking are causing them to be hesitant and timid, which is obviously going to result in a bunch of turnovers at this level of basketball. Let them get some shots up, crash the boards, and run a little bit. This team needs confidence, and slowing things down and asking them to do things they're not comfortable doing is probably not going to help very much with that. oscar is very inflexible and that needs to change if he's ever going to avoid these giants peaks and valleys he seems to experience.
This is probably true, though oscar's teams have had some variety in pace over the years with a few upper 60s seasons mixed in with mainly mid 60s. The lower 60s as we've seen this year and his first year here are more rare.
Again, I think the lower pace was a deliberate decision with this team after we started the season mainly at a higher pace and were 4-4. Of course we also had our worst stretch of the season playing slower, but I think in early December this staff made a specific decision to focus on slowing the pace and playing better defense.
What's great about this theory is Pitt was by far the slowest game of the 8 and the 4 wins were the 4 fastest games.
I think I'd be for a faster pace if we had a rim protector defensively.
I don't want us to trap or press or speed up pace defensively.
-
It's also worth noting that Jevon has the worst TO Rate of any regular-playing KSU Cat since Clent in 2006 and 2005 (no one else even comes close to being as bad as Jevon). It would be very, very hard for Jevon to get any worse in that department. I would guess a lot of his current turnovers would turn into missed shots in a faster offensive pace, if anything.
Transition offense doesn't require some special skillset that our players lack. I mean, you people act like a motion offense doesn't require "handles" or "decision making".
Yeah, I don't get the sense that our players are just turnover prone, and that faster pace would automatically exacerbate that problem. I get the feeling that several of our players do not have a good grasp on all the minutia of oscar's motion offense, and that uncertainty and overthinking are causing them to be hesitant and timid, which is obviously going to result in a bunch of turnovers at this level of basketball. Let them get some shots up, crash the boards, and run a little bit. This team needs confidence, and slowing things down and asking them to do things they're not comfortable doing is probably not going to help very much with that. oscar is very inflexible and that needs to change if he's ever going to avoid these giants peaks and valleys he seems to experience.
This is probably true, though oscar's teams have had some variety in pace over the years with a few upper 60s seasons mixed in with mainly mid 60s. The lower 60s as we've seen this year and his first year here are more rare.
Again, I think the lower pace was a deliberate decision with this team after we started the season mainly at a higher pace and were 4-4. Of course we also had our worst stretch of the season playing slower, but I think in early December this staff made a specific decision to focus on slowing the pace and playing better defense.
What's great about this theory is Pitt was by far the slowest game of the 8 and the 4 wins were the 4 fastest games.
I think I'd be for a faster pace if we had a rim protector defensively.
I don't want us to trap or press or speed up pace defensively.
Agreed. I just have visions of us not scoring in a faster paced offense and needing someone that can threaten defensively at the rim as the opponent rushes down the court following a turnover or miss. My bigger concern, we're not in good enough shape to pick up the pace.