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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: chum1 on March 28, 2010, 11:10:26 AM

Title: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: chum1 on March 28, 2010, 11:10:26 AM
You can't pinpoint one thing that they're really good at.

Shooting?  No.
Size?  No.
Speed?  No.
Playing mistake free?  Nope.
Playing smart?  No.

WTF? 
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: michigancat on March 28, 2010, 11:12:07 AM
Their defense is fantastic.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: Dugout DickStone on March 28, 2010, 11:12:22 AM
they lit us up like a Christmas tree on the glass.  Game over.

But you are right.  winner of OSU/MSU will whip their ass and we will feel even worse.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 28, 2010, 11:14:46 AM
I hate playing the "tired" card, but we did look tired . . . when you're tired you make dumb mistakes.  

If Sutton, JSam and Colon go 4 for 11 it's a different game.  

Also, hopefully Frank learns from yesterday because IMO that wasn't a great coaching performance.  

Really disappointed how they all but ignored CKelly in the second half, and how we let them kill us on the board.

Another shout out to the Thursday night refs for keeping Xavier in the game and causing 2 OT's.  
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: michigancat on March 28, 2010, 11:19:46 AM
Also, Hayward is a first round draft pick.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: chum1 on March 28, 2010, 11:21:50 AM
They're not great at defense or rebounding.  That's just how they beat us. 

Also, they're not great at having NBA talent.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: michigancat on March 28, 2010, 11:23:27 AM
They're not great at defense or rebounding.  That's just how they beat us. 

Also, they're not great at having NBA talent.

No, they're truly great at defense.  And at having NBA talent make plays.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: pissclams on March 28, 2010, 11:27:42 AM
Their defense is fantastic.
we made their defense fantastic.  they're a mid-major, nothing more.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: michigancat on March 28, 2010, 11:28:37 AM
Their defense is fantastic.
we made their defense fantastic.  they're a mid-major, nothing more.

kenpom
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: Pett on March 28, 2010, 11:36:38 AM
Also, Hayward is a first round draft pick.

Mack is an NBA draft pick too.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: EMAWzified on March 28, 2010, 11:44:00 AM
They beat a 1 and 2 to earn the FF. They must have something.
But it should be obvious to anybody who watched yesterday's game, we just didn't have enough fuel in the tank. I hate losing that way. One more real player and not CM or Colon could have put us over the top.
I'm thinking the recruiting miss on Marcus Denmon really hurt. He would have been a third interchangeable guard and ready to step into Denis' shoes next year.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: chum1 on March 28, 2010, 11:51:26 AM
They're above average in NBA talent at best.  Not really good.

So, kenpom has them 6th in defense.  My issue is the same.  Pinpoint one aspect of defense that they're really good at. 
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: CHONGS on March 28, 2010, 11:52:37 AM
They're above average in NBA talent at best.  Not really good.

So, kenpom has them 6th in defense.  My issue is the same.  Pinpoint one aspect of defense that they're really good at. 
Guarding the perimeter, and denying entry passes down low.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: The42Yardstick on March 28, 2010, 12:01:18 PM
They're above average in NBA talent at best.  Not really good.

So, kenpom has them 6th in defense.  My issue is the same.  Pinpoint one aspect of defense that they're really good at. 
Guarding the perimeter, and denying entry passes down low.

Yeah, this. Even if KSU hadn't been tired, the game likely would have been close because they're so good at harassing people both inside and outside. They were freaking everywhere.

Everything else, yeah they're average or above average.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: MakeItRain on March 28, 2010, 12:04:29 PM
They are 8th in the country in adjusted defensive eff.
No one has scored over 60 on them in the tournament
Hayward is a projected lottery pick
They beat a legit 1 and a legit 2 seed
They have won a million straight games
There is no OSU left in the tourney wtf are you talking about

JFC stop sounding like a bunch of uneducated crybabies
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: chum1 on March 28, 2010, 12:07:41 PM
So what are you saying?  That they really should have been a 1 seed?  Bullshit.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: The42Yardstick on March 28, 2010, 12:10:24 PM
So what are you saying?  That they really should have been a 1 seed?  Bullshit.

Should have been a 3 seed. G-Town? GTFOOMF
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: CHONGS on March 28, 2010, 12:13:13 PM
So what are you saying?  That they really should have been a 1 seed?  Bullshit.
no

Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: chum1 on March 28, 2010, 12:17:15 PM
So what are you saying?  That they really should have been a 1 seed?  Bullshit.
no

I was addressing they guy who thinks Butler is so obviously good that asking questions about them makes you a cry baby.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: MakeItRain on March 28, 2010, 12:24:20 PM
 :cheers:
So what are you saying?  That they really should have been a 1 seed?  Bullshit.

What I'm saying is your reasoning for why Butler isn't good is pretty dumb.  Your errors could have been avoided by reading something other than this site or watching Butler before Thursday night (although beating a 1 seed should have been the first tip that they are good).

Should K-State have won, of course, no reason to go full Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).  They're good, they're in the final four and they have two very good wins to get there, doesn't hurt to acknowledge that.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: chum1 on March 28, 2010, 12:29:37 PM
I wasn't saying that they aren't good.  I was saying why I hate losing to them.  See thread title.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: MakeItRain on March 28, 2010, 12:38:19 PM
I wasn't saying that they aren't good.  I was saying why I hate losing to them.  See thread title.

Point is you are wrong about Butler, they are fantastic defensively and Hayward is a lottery pick.  Did you see that step back 3, pro move.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: Thread Killer on March 28, 2010, 12:42:03 PM
Their defense is fantastic.

Their black players are way smarter than our ghetto ass thugs.  And their coach doesnt have a slight case of downs syndrome either which greatly helped them.

Listening to martin speak should give every person who has mental defects hope.

Dumbest coach in the country

"Thats stupid and silly, thats just silly"

Yep folks, big 12 coach of the year.

College bball  :flush:
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: The42Yardstick on March 28, 2010, 12:57:57 PM
Their defense is fantastic.

Their black players are way smarter than our ghetto ass thugs.  And their coach doesnt have a slight case of downs syndrome either which greatly helped them.

Listening to martin speak should give every person who has mental defects hope.

Dumbest coach in the country

"Thats stupid and silly, thats just silly"

Yep folks, big 12 coach of the year.

College bball  :flush:

This post is feminist
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: Thread Killer on March 28, 2010, 01:00:30 PM
Their defense is fantastic.

Their black players are way smarter than our ghetto ass thugs.  And their coach doesnt have a slight case of downs syndrome either which greatly helped them.

Listening to martin speak should give every person who has mental defects hope.

Dumbest coach in the country

"Thats stupid and silly, thats just silly"

Yep folks, big 12 coach of the year.

College bball  :flush:

This post is feminist

Thats stupid and silly
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: michigancat on March 28, 2010, 01:01:32 PM
They're above average in NBA talent at best.  Not really good.

So, kenpom has them 6th in defense.  My issue is the same.  Pinpoint one aspect of defense that they're really good at. 

defensive rebounding
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: chum1 on March 28, 2010, 01:06:17 PM
So, I guess I hate losing to them because, other than defense and having Hayward, they're not really good at anything.  It sucks just as much as before.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: felix rex on March 28, 2010, 01:14:00 PM
They made a lot of layups against us. It was like 07 @Nebraska out there at times (not to compare them to Doc's boys). So, they were really good at exploiting our defense and making open layups.

And they were lights out on defense. SOOOOO pissed off that they actually "neutralized" Pullen.

I'm pleading 06-07 Texas Tech and requesting the committee take our fatigue into account.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: SuperG on March 28, 2010, 01:53:03 PM
They're above average in NBA talent at best.  Not really good.

So, kenpom has them 6th in defense.  My issue is the same.  Pinpoint one aspect of defense that they're really good at. 

Fighting through/avoiding screens. Especially our sloppy screens.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: wetwillie on March 28, 2010, 02:17:15 PM
I think getting out rebounded  36-27 and them committing 20 turnovers without us being able to rape them in transition was a real KITN for me    :bang:
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: catzacker on March 28, 2010, 02:40:56 PM
You can't pinpoint one thing that they're really good at.

Shooting?  No.
Size?  No.
Speed?  No.
Playing mistake free?  Nope.
Playing smart?  No.

WTF? 


I think that's why it's called an upset.  Also, the reason I hate losing to Butler is because I hate losing to teams with a lot of white players. 
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: OregonSmock on March 28, 2010, 03:26:35 PM
They hit their free throws, play great team defense, and they have a guy who is a legit NBA talent.  There's a reason why they've won 24 straight games, including wins over Syracuse, Xavier, Ohio State, and K-State.  Butler is good. 
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: felix rex on March 29, 2010, 06:58:44 AM
Plus, now I have to avoid listening to all sports talk radio for a week because I can't take another "OMG WHAT A WONDERFUL STORY FOR BUTLER!"

Totally want Butler to get destroyed. But they'll probably be faves against MSU, which is disgusting.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: chum1 on March 29, 2010, 08:44:25 AM
Seriously.  No analyst can tell you why they're good with any moderate level of specificity.  It's like they're good because they drink a magic potion or something.  How can anyone not hate losing to them?
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: steve dave on March 29, 2010, 08:46:13 AM
Seriously.  No analyst can tell you why they're good with any moderate level of specificity.  It's like they're good because they drink a magic potion or something.  How can anyone not hate losing to them?

They're very good at making you hate losing to them
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: mcmwcat on March 29, 2010, 09:38:14 AM
they were v good at rebounding and making us settle for terrible shots.  they took away anything we wanted to do offensively.  also they shot the 3 very well against us.

most importantly they are very good at winning.  i love the Butler.  greatest slow pace team i have ever watched.

Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: felix rex on March 29, 2010, 02:42:12 PM
Seriously.  No analyst can tell you why they're good with any moderate level of specificity.  It's like they're good because they drink a magic potion or something.  How can anyone not hate losing to them?

They're very good at making you hate losing to them

Almost as good as Baylor. (GODDAMN I HATE LOSING TO rough ridin' BAYLOR  :curse:)
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: steve dave on March 29, 2010, 02:45:00 PM
Seriously.  No analyst can tell you why they're good with any moderate level of specificity.  It's like they're good because they drink a magic potion or something.  How can anyone not hate losing to them?

They're very good at making you hate losing to them

Almost as good as Baylor. (GODDAMN I HATE LOSING TO rough ridin' BAYLOR  :curse:)

Good year for you then
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: chum1 on March 29, 2010, 02:47:15 PM
I don't give a crap about Baylor.  But losing to CU is a real kick to the nads.   
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: steve dave on March 29, 2010, 02:49:23 PM
I don't give a crap about Baylor.  But losing to CU is a real kick to the nads.   

Man, both of you guys had good years!  :eek:
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: felix rex on March 29, 2010, 03:07:10 PM
I don't give a crap about Baylor.  But losing to CU is a real kick to the nads.   

Man, both of you guys had good years!  :eek:

Srsly. I barely even watched a game after the Big 12 tourney semifinal. Just sorta kept an eye on the bracket in case we met Baylor again in the finals (or in case that cheating bastard Drew somehow changed the bracket to get into our region  :curse:).
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: michigancat on April 03, 2010, 07:49:22 PM
Quote
@kpelton: 50 points on 57 possessions for Michigan State. Butler is putting on a defensive clinic in the tournament.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: chum1 on April 03, 2010, 07:54:14 PM
No one can say anything meaningful beyond "they play great defense."  It like rough ridin' magic.  That's what I hate.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: BEFR on April 03, 2010, 08:23:59 PM
bam! how close we were  :eek: we could very well have lost in a close hard-fought game to the unexpected national champs just like in 1977 and in 1988... we are champion-builders  :dunno:
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: MakeItRain on April 03, 2010, 08:48:04 PM
No one can say anything meaningful beyond "they play great defense."  It like fracking magic.  That's what I hate.

Iknowright!  All they have are two pros, including a lottery pick, in their starting lineup.   All they do is d up and completely impose their style on their opponents, so unworthy of their wins.  If they could only have a flashy offense like BYU :excited:
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: chum1 on April 03, 2010, 08:58:40 PM
Iknowright!  All they have are two pros, including a lottery pick, in their starting lineup.   All they do is d up and completely impose their style on their opponents, so unworthy of their wins.  If they could only have a flashy offense like BYU :excited:

Hey, dumbass.  Lots of teams have a lottery pick and impose their style on their opponents.  That doesn't explain crap.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: MakeItRain on April 03, 2010, 09:16:23 PM
Iknowright!  All they have are two pros, including a lottery pick, in their starting lineup.   All they do is d up and completely impose their style on their opponents, so unworthy of their wins.  If they could only have a flashy offense like BYU :excited:

Hey, dumbass.  Lots of teams have a lottery pick and impose their style on their opponents.  That doesn't explain crap.

Please tell me the "lots of teams" with 2 draft picks in their starting 5 who are as defensively imposing as Butler.  While searching for your answer ask yourself why having 2 NBAers is important to Butler's style of play as opposed to a team like Kentucky.

lol with the dumbass, I am completely blowing you up, and not because of some kind of wonkish stance.  It's because your position is so mindnumbingly stupid.  I give you props though for consistency.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: slimz on April 03, 2010, 09:18:16 PM
Butler is "defensively imposing" because NCAA refs don't call hand checks anymore.  It's how they make up for their athleticism deficit.

Duke is going to annihilate them.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: kso_FAN on April 03, 2010, 09:21:59 PM
As I watch these games I keep expecting to see Tee Martin.  Tonight is making how we missed out on a chance at a NC only like I felt in 1998.  Granted, we would've had to win 2, but I can't help but watch and think we are better than any of the teams in Indy.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: slimz on April 03, 2010, 09:24:12 PM
As I watch these games I keep expecting to see Tee Martin.  Tonight is making how we missed out on a chance at a NC only like I felt in 1998.  Granted, we would've had to win 2, but I can't help but watch and think we are better than any of the teams in Indy.

I think Duke or WVU would have beaten us.  Let's not forget that we started two players who not only are no help offensively, but actually are liabilities.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: chum1 on April 03, 2010, 09:26:23 PM
Please tell me the "lots of teams" with 2 draft picks in their starting 5 who are as defensively imposing as Butler.

I'll do that as soon as you tell me specifically what constitutes an imposing defense like Butler's, dumbass. 
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: DQ12 on April 03, 2010, 09:37:42 PM
Please tell me the "lots of teams" with 2 draft picks in their starting 5 who are as defensively imposing as Butler.

I'll do that as soon as you tell me specifically what constitutes an imposing defense like Butler's, dumbass.  


What an intuitive question!  Thanks for spurring me to do some research.  Here, specifically, is evidence of Butler's imposing defense:


They have only given up 70 points one time all season, and it was in November!    :surprised:

Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: MakeItRain on April 03, 2010, 09:47:44 PM
Please tell me the "lots of teams" with 2 draft picks in their starting 5 who are as defensively imposing as Butler.

I'll do that as soon as you tell me specifically what constitutes an imposing defense like Butler's, dumbass. 

Will do, try to follow.  Butler does four things very well. They limit possessions by slowing the game down, their perimeter defenders are good, they are sound defensive rebounders, and they are fantastic in transitional defense.

It is like a puzzle really, we'll start when they have the ball.  They run the shot clock way down, here's where the 2 NBAers are important, after they run it down they can still score because Hayward can be isoed, a matchup nightmare, and Mack can break down a defense and get in the middle of the defense.  Remember the 2 threes that driveway shooter hit against us?  Look at what set them up.

Okay so they have just scored, or they didn't, doesn't matter.  You want to get the ball up the court, well, they don't send more than 2 to the glass so there are already 3 or 4 defenders back, you have to now run a half court set.  As mentioned the guards led by Nored, conference defensive POY, are good.  The post defenders are either small, or dumb (Howard) so there is an advantage there, see Kelly, Curtis first half.  The issue is the on ball pressure does not allow you to enter the ball as much as you like.  So you get a shot up, they are very good at keeping their opponents off of the boards, they'll send everyone, not worried about getting the ball up the court quick.

So there it is Butler's formula, of course with any tourney run they have had luck, but there is a reason why they have held tourney opponents to 55 PPG.  Next year they won't have the shot maker/mismatch in Hayward so their puzzle will need to be reworked.  Pretty hard for a mid major to recover from losing a lottery pick, see Davidson without Steph Curry.

That lesson was free, I'll charge you from now on.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: chum1 on April 03, 2010, 09:51:56 PM
What a bunch of bullshit.
Title: Re: Why I hate losing to Butler
Post by: michigancat on April 03, 2010, 10:31:15 PM
As I watch these games I keep expecting to see Tee Martin.  Tonight is making how we missed out on a chance at a NC only like I felt in 1998.  Granted, we would've had to win 2, but I can't help but watch and think we are better than any of the teams in Indy.

I think Duke or WVU would have beaten us.  Let's not forget that we started two players who not only are no help offensively, but actually are liabilities.

Yeah, Duke would destroy us.  Ken Pomeroy gets the last laugh this year.


WVU was better than us, too.