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General Discussion => Essentially Flyertalk => Topic started by: star seed 7 on August 02, 2013, 12:32:06 AM

Title: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: star seed 7 on August 02, 2013, 12:32:06 AM
I'm going with Australia.  :)
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what county would you choose to live in?
Post by: Stevesie60 on August 02, 2013, 12:44:13 AM
Canada. It'd be the most similar, right?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what county would you choose to live in?
Post by: star seed 7 on August 02, 2013, 12:47:59 AM
Canada is so cold though!
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what county would you choose to live in?
Post by: PowercatPat on August 02, 2013, 12:50:03 AM
England or Canada.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what county would you choose to live in?
Post by: bones129 on August 02, 2013, 12:55:53 AM
Wherever I can play golf year-round.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what county would you choose to live in?
Post by: fairweatherpud on August 02, 2013, 01:04:48 AM
County.   :D

Falkland island, prince harry as prime minister.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what county would you choose to live in?
Post by: star seed 7 on August 02, 2013, 01:12:22 AM
County.   :D

Falkland island, prince harry as prime minister.

 :blush:
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: BobBarker on August 02, 2013, 02:28:47 AM
obviously, Texas.
Title: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: steve dave on August 02, 2013, 06:14:37 AM
UK
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: AppleJack on August 02, 2013, 06:39:11 AM
Sudan
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live i
Post by: Mr Bread on August 02, 2013, 06:49:05 AM
UK

Yes, definitely.  I would be balls deep in London, England.  It just feels so right. 
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: 8manpick on August 02, 2013, 07:23:07 AM
Australia or New Zealand
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep on August 02, 2013, 07:24:22 AM
poland
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: AST on August 02, 2013, 07:28:45 AM
New Zealand or Chile, I can't decide which though
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: p1k3 on August 02, 2013, 07:43:59 AM
Switzerland. Freest of the Free and pretty sweet mountains
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: steve dave on August 02, 2013, 07:47:20 AM
Switzerland. Freest of the Free and pretty sweet mountains

social healthcare  :love:
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: p1k3 on August 02, 2013, 07:49:14 AM
Switzerland. Freest of the Free and pretty sweet mountains

social healthcare  :love:

guns  :love:
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: mocat on August 02, 2013, 07:49:24 AM
Sweden / UK
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on August 02, 2013, 07:49:39 AM
Panem
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: steve dave on August 02, 2013, 07:50:34 AM
Switzerland. Freest of the Free and pretty sweet mountains

social healthcare  :love:

guns  :love:

military conscription  :love:
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: NDSU Lollypopkid on August 02, 2013, 07:52:15 AM
Australia or Cabo San Lucas Mexico
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: SabiNation on August 02, 2013, 08:23:32 AM
Titletown
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on August 02, 2013, 08:23:52 AM
i spend a lot of time trying to decide.  right now, i'm prolly 70-80% italy, spain, portugal, france (in order); 20-30% mexico, uruguay, argentina, chile (in order, but with low conviction).  whether the us exists or not is irrelevant.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: ben ji on August 02, 2013, 08:30:59 AM
Would narrow it down to Aussyland, Germany, Brazil(no favela's) or Uraguay
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: pissclams on August 02, 2013, 08:37:34 AM
spain
denmark (copenhagen)
reunion island
uruguay
hong kong

Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: WildcatNkilt on August 02, 2013, 08:39:46 AM
Austria
New Zealand
Australia
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Jackstack99EMAW on August 02, 2013, 08:40:24 AM
Denmark, Switzerland, UK, or Canada.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: steve dave on August 02, 2013, 08:42:16 AM
canada sucks guys. even the parts that supposedly don't suck like victoria/vancouver suck. I think they got the rep of not sucking based on their relative non suck compared to other more sucky canadian suckholes.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Jackstack99EMAW on August 02, 2013, 08:44:41 AM
canada sucks guys. even the parts that supposedly don't suck like victoria/vancouver suck. I think they got the rep of not sucking based on their relative non suck compared to other more sucky canadian suckholes.
Thanks for the advice SD
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on August 02, 2013, 08:50:01 AM
Greece, hands down, but for the difficult language and imploding economy. Czech Republic is another appealing option, but again, the language is just atrocious. Australia or New Zealand are the practical choices. Canada would be easiest, but it's just too damned cold.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on August 02, 2013, 08:52:15 AM
Your Moms house, Seven.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Unruly on August 02, 2013, 08:59:13 AM
I mean the correct answer for this is Amsterdam right?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on August 02, 2013, 09:03:31 AM
I mean the correct answer for this is Amsterdam right?

Absolutely
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: lopakman on August 02, 2013, 09:05:02 AM
You could find me in Stockholm, Sweden. 
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: steve dave on August 02, 2013, 09:05:56 AM
I mean the correct answer for this is Amsterdam right?

there isn't one correct answer. it's a very subjective question.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: mocat on August 02, 2013, 09:06:00 AM
I mean the correct answer for this is Amsterdam right?

amsterdam gets pretty old pretty quick, although it's pretty much in the center of northern western europe so there's a lot of great stuff within a couple hours travel time
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: steve dave on August 02, 2013, 09:09:27 AM
Belgium would probably be second for me.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: mocat on August 02, 2013, 09:13:48 AM
You could find me in Stockholm, Sweden.

see you there buddy.  :excited:
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: 'taterblast on August 02, 2013, 09:16:20 AM
probably Australia though i've never been there
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: slimz on August 02, 2013, 09:21:43 AM
Australia
Scotland
Ireland
Iceland
New Zealand
Chile

Maybe Belgium for the beer.   :lick:
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: lopakman on August 02, 2013, 09:31:21 AM
You could find me in Stockholm, Sweden.

see you there buddy.  :excited:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Mr Bread on August 02, 2013, 09:33:35 AM
You could find me in Stockholm, Sweden.

see you there buddy.  :excited:

This is my #2 if for some reason London was closed. 
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: catzacker on August 02, 2013, 09:45:19 AM
Switzerland
England
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: StevieWonderSniperSchool on August 02, 2013, 09:47:14 AM
Probs narnia, but a close second would be new zealand
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: bubbles4ksu on August 02, 2013, 09:51:05 AM
Netherlands
Australia
Sweden
England

I think everyone saying Switzerland is a wierdo. The Swiss are very dull.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: pissclams on August 02, 2013, 09:58:11 AM
Netherlands
Australia
Sweden
England

I think everyone saying Switzerland is a wierdo. The Swiss are very dull.

the swiss rough ridin' suck
eff you swiss

swiss:  oh hey guys how about some hot chocolate?
us:  shut up dumbass, go ski to the bank or something
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: eastcat on August 02, 2013, 10:04:23 AM
Argentina or Chile.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 02, 2013, 10:05:19 AM
New Zealand!


Swiss do have really handy knives though 'Clams.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Institutional Control on August 02, 2013, 10:06:23 AM
I think the French or Italian Riviera would be a nice quaint place to live.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: DQ12 on August 02, 2013, 10:07:45 AM
Egypt with my bro FelixRex
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: mocat on August 02, 2013, 10:08:04 AM
New Zealand!

closest thing to Narnia, really
Title: Re: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: 8manpick on August 02, 2013, 11:08:56 AM
New Zealand!


Shitty beer tho
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: The1BigWillie on August 02, 2013, 11:42:44 AM
SPAIN!!! EASY
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: The Big Train on August 02, 2013, 11:47:56 AM
Easter Island
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: AST on August 02, 2013, 11:51:35 AM
Argentina or Chile.

Patagonia   :drool:
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Skipper44 on August 02, 2013, 11:52:56 AM
Costa Rico or Panama
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: p1k3 on August 02, 2013, 11:53:12 AM
Switzerland. Freest of the Free and pretty sweet mountains

social healthcare  :love:

guns  :love:

military conscription  :love:

Sounds easy they never fight anybody  :love:
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: The Big Train on August 02, 2013, 11:54:09 AM
Peru, so I could check out all the sites from Ancient Aliens.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Stevesie60 on August 02, 2013, 12:27:03 PM
I just chose Canada because 1. English and 2. It has football (not futbol). You dorks are really going to live someplace where people don't speak English and the only thing they care about is soccer?
Title: Re: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: 8manpick on August 02, 2013, 12:30:02 PM
I just chose Canada because 1. English and 2. It has football (not futbol). You dorks are really going to live someplace where people don't speak English and the only thing they care about is soccer?
Rugby is kinda like football only better...

Australia or New Zealand
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: lopakman on August 02, 2013, 12:31:59 PM
I just chose Canada because 1. English and 2. It has football (not futbol). You dorks are really going to live someplace where people don't speak English and the only thing they care about is soccer?

As opposed to a country that only cares about Hockey?  Yes.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Tobias on August 02, 2013, 12:33:31 PM
croatia
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: steve dave on August 02, 2013, 12:34:20 PM
croatia

it's very "hot" right now. so is Hungary.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Tobias on August 02, 2013, 12:35:21 PM
croatia

it's very "hot" right now. so is Hungary.

damn it.  i'll look at a map and try again later
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: star seed 7 on August 02, 2013, 01:51:12 PM
Your Moms house, Seven.

That's in the US, dumbass.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: NDSU Lollypopkid on August 02, 2013, 02:01:20 PM
So if half of these answers are Canada..does that mean Fargo is your #1 desired place to live in the u.s.??
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: lopakman on August 02, 2013, 02:37:51 PM
So if half of these answers are Canada..does that mean Fargo is your #1 desired place to live in the u.s.??

Half the votes?  Really!?!  I counted about three.  But sure, Fargo.  It's great!  If I wanted to live in Canada but couldn't, sign me up.  It's got the best weather on the Fourth of July, TONS of oil, of which apparantly Kansas has none and stadiums that seat 20,000 screaming fans.  It's true, lakebison told me all of this.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Emo EMAW on August 02, 2013, 04:33:29 PM
There is a decent chance we will retire in Chile or Argentina.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: chum1 on August 02, 2013, 05:06:27 PM
All people in foreign countries are annoying as eff.  Maybe not at first, but they'll seriously get on your nerves after a while.  I'd just go ahead and start my own U.S. of A.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on August 02, 2013, 06:11:59 PM
All people in foreign countries are annoying as eff.  Maybe not at first, but they'll seriously get on your nerves after a while.  I'd just go ahead and start my own U.S. of A.

Texas is way ahead of you on this.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on August 02, 2013, 06:22:00 PM
I don't know.  I used to think about this a lot.  At this point I'd just say Mexico because that would probably be one of the easiest transitions.  I am pretty sure I would hate living in Europe or Asia.  South America I could handle.  I am a new world person, I just can't turn back across that ocean.  If forced to, I'd probably go to Botswana or something for some breathing room.  I guess I could do Australia, it is basically America 100 years ago with technology.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on August 02, 2013, 06:23:22 PM
why in the world would you think you'd dislike living in europe?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on August 02, 2013, 06:28:23 PM
why in the world would you think you'd dislike living in europe?

high cost of living, small homes/weird appliances, really weird, annoying, old institutions/bureaucracies/townie cultures, racists.  Obviously there would be a lot of plusses, but I'd rather visit than live there.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on August 02, 2013, 06:29:36 PM
why in the world would you think you'd dislike living in europe?

high cost of living, small homes/weird appliances, really weird, annoying, old institutions/bureaucracies/townie cultures, racists.  Obviously there would be a lot of plusses, but I'd rather visit than live there.

most of those are your imagination.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on August 02, 2013, 06:31:46 PM
why in the world would you think you'd dislike living in europe?

high cost of living, small homes/weird appliances, really weird, annoying, old institutions/bureaucracies/townie cultures, racists.  Obviously there would be a lot of plusses, but I'd rather visit than live there.

most of those are your imagination.

could be.  which ones?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: michigancat on August 02, 2013, 06:32:36 PM
London, probably the best city that's not New York. (Never been, though, so it might be better!)
Title: Re: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: michigancat on August 02, 2013, 06:33:05 PM
London, probably the best city that's not New York. (Never been, though, so it might be better!)

Or Paris
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on August 02, 2013, 06:33:53 PM
cost of living, small weird homes/stuff, racists, annoyingness of different cultures/institutions.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on August 02, 2013, 06:34:08 PM
London, probably the best city that's not New York. (Never been, though, so it might be better!)

It is very good and probably the #1 on my if I had to live in Europe places.  I could probably not do it or Scandanavia though because of the weather which I left off my critique.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: hemmy on August 02, 2013, 06:35:14 PM
I am going to limit it to the countries I have been to (Canada, Mexico, Jamaica, England, Ireland, Germany, Austria) as those are the only fair choices I can make.

I would pick the UK.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on August 02, 2013, 06:41:00 PM
cost of living, small weird homes/stuff, racists, annoyingness of different cultures/institutions.

oh bullshit.  Please google for like 30 seconds and try and find a counter example.

http://www.realtor.com/international/search-listing/La-Atalaya_SP_CSP002642i0 (http://www.realtor.com/international/search-listing/La-Atalaya_SP_CSP002642i0)

As far as racists, you are clearly wrong unless you are talking about the scandanavians and I've already ruled them out because of weather.  Nearly all of the places on your list are in my experience more racist than the U.S. (outside of the South).

The annoyingness of cultures:  I get butthurt just thinking about living in a nominal monarchy, I don't put all that on them.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on August 02, 2013, 08:13:02 PM
cost of living, small weird homes/stuff, racists, annoyingness of different cultures/institutions.

oh bullshit.  Please google for like 30 seconds and try and find a counter example.

http://www.realtor.com/international/search-listing/La-Atalaya_SP_CSP002642i0 (http://www.realtor.com/international/search-listing/La-Atalaya_SP_CSP002642i0)

As far as racists, you are clearly wrong unless you are talking about the scandanavians and I've already ruled them out because of weather.  Nearly all of the places on your list are in my experience more racist than the U.S. (outside of the South).

The annoyingness of cultures:  I get butthurt just thinking about living in a nominal monarchy, I don't put all that on them.

my connection is crap, so i'm not going to spend 30 minutes trying to google random houses.  you can look for yourself if you like.  for the most part anything in spain that you see listed in english is overpriced, but you also have to be realistic.  you aren't going to find something cheap in a historic city center (although if you actually want to live in a condo on a golf course, buying in the iberian peninsula might be perfect for you right now).  one-off examples either way is a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) way of comparing prices anyways.

http://www.encuentra24.com/espana-es/bienes-raices-venta-de-propiedades

as i'm sure you know, real estate prices vary a ton by region and city anyways, trying to compare the us to europe as entire entities is just ridiculous.  there are places in each of those areas where you wouldn't be able to find anything you'd consider living in, and other areas where you can find something very reasonable.

but also, let's not pretend real estate is the same thing as cost of living.  my wife and i lived in granada on about 1k euro/month with no problems and no sense of privation.


define racism.  europeans are way less obsessed with black/white.  they tend to have far stronger regional and national (ethnic nationality, not patriotism) identities.  that's not the same thing as us style racism.  if i have to choose between the two, i far prefer the euro version.

you live in a country where the two political parties that control access to power will likely include the wife of a former president and a guy whose father and brother have held that office as presidential candidates in the next election.  and you want to throw stones at ceremonial monarchs?



it's also weird that you'd consider mexico as your first choice but turn your nose up at all of europe.  i'm not going to pretend that living in mexico is more similar to living in europe than to living in the us, because it isn't.  but in some of the things you mentioned (weird annoying bureaucracies, institutions, "racism", etc.), mexico is more like europe than like the us.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on August 02, 2013, 08:28:17 PM
this is prolly a better place to look for spanish real estate than the other i linked, if you are so inclined.

http://www.idealista.com/
Title: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on August 02, 2013, 08:31:14 PM
I agree about cost of living not being the same as housing, I should've just said cost of housing.  A lot of this is just inherent to living in a more densely populated region. 

As far as racism goes, you are just wrong.  There is no modern U.S. equivalents to the kind of crap that is going on in Italy right now with regards to how people are treating their immigration minister.  You could argue that people in the U.S. are just as likely to believe or say racist things on twitter, but the lack of social norms about public displays of racism in nearly every Euopean country in at least one major social context (sports, politics or both) is wholly different from the way unrepentant racists are treated in the US. 

Mexico has a very weak central government so it isn't really the same in the way that I meant.  It is more disturbing and scary in a lot of ways that Europe isn't for that reason, but it is also relatively easy to circumvent most of that.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Saulbadguy on August 02, 2013, 08:36:12 PM
turkey
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: kim carnes on August 02, 2013, 08:37:32 PM
turkey

watch out saul, there are a lot of muslims there.
Title: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: steve dave on August 02, 2013, 08:38:26 PM
Great goEMAW battle here. Studs facing off on things. ok. ok. here we go.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Saulbadguy on August 02, 2013, 08:38:39 PM
turkey

watch out saul, there are a lot of muslims there.
the good kind
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: kim carnes on August 02, 2013, 09:13:37 PM
turkey

watch out saul, there are a lot of muslims there.
the good kind

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: michigancat on August 02, 2013, 09:14:24 PM
Europeans are pretty racist against Muslims, it seems.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on August 02, 2013, 09:15:50 PM
turkey

great european country.  good choice, saul.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: steve dave on August 02, 2013, 09:18:32 PM
turkey!  :D croatia and hungary too you guys? so hot right now!
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 02, 2013, 09:18:59 PM
Needs:

Free country (no commies)
Seasons (no all summer/winter type places)
1st world (running water etc)
Affordability! (Affordable)

Which country fits best?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 02, 2013, 09:19:22 PM
Also not war torn preferably.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: steve dave on August 02, 2013, 09:21:36 PM
Needs:

Free country (no commies)
Seasons (no all summer/winter type places)
1st world (running water etc)
Affordability! (Affordable)

Which country fits best?

the kansas part of the UK
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Trim on August 02, 2013, 09:25:58 PM
Maybe whatever's next over from Hawaii, or Hawaii if it doesn't get wiped off the map with the rest of the physical U.S.

:dunno:
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 02, 2013, 09:26:25 PM
Needs:

Free country (no commies)
Seasons (no all summer/winter type places)
1st world (running water etc)
Affordability! (Affordable)

Which country fits best?

the kansas part of the UK

wanna come over to my huge British mansion for some beers when we all move there?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: steve dave on August 02, 2013, 09:27:00 PM
Needs:

Free country (no commies)
Seasons (no all summer/winter type places)
1st world (running water etc)
Affordability! (Affordable)

Which country fits best?

the kansas part of the UK

wanna come over to my huge British mansion for some beers when we all move there?

yes, absolutely
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on August 02, 2013, 09:28:00 PM
As far as racism goes, you are just wrong.  There is no modern U.S. equivalents to the kind of crap that is going on in Italy right now with regards to how people are treating their immigration minister.  You could argue that people in the U.S. are just as likely to believe or say racist things on twitter, but the lack of social norms about public displays of racism in nearly every Euopean country in at least one major social context (sports, politics or both) is wholly different from the way unrepentant racists are treated in the US.

bullshit.  a)  italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).  there is no other (western) euro country that is similar.  b)  part of what you perceive is through the prism of your own us centric perception of racism, europeans don't have the history of subjugating a specific skin-color defined class of people within their own country, so they understandably lack the petrifying fear of being considered racist.  c)  those same northern wackos are as likely to call a sicilian a monkey as an african.  in southern spain, i heard considerably more negative commentary about the "northern barbarians" and the roma than about asian or african immigrants.  to jump on anti-immigrant sentiment and/or ethnic/cultural chauvinism and consider it to be comparable with us style racism is wrong and ignorant.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 02, 2013, 09:30:35 PM
Needs:

Free country (no commies)
Seasons (no all summer/winter type places)
1st world (running water etc)
Affordability! (Affordable)

Which country fits best?

the kansas part of the UK

wanna come over to my huge British mansion for some beers when we all move there?

yes, absolutely

cool. code on the gate is 84 75. park under the car port if you like.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: nicname on August 02, 2013, 09:40:33 PM
I'd like to live in some tropical locale, not too touristy, but a little.  I'd live out my days owning and operating something like this

(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fregisworld.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F10%2Fimg_0333.jpg&hash=8e772df0dbc07db3c657c21425dbc131f59f852f)
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on August 02, 2013, 09:40:49 PM
As far as racism goes, you are just wrong.  There is no modern U.S. equivalents to the kind of crap that is going on in Italy right now with regards to how people are treating their immigration minister.  You could argue that people in the U.S. are just as likely to believe or say racist things on twitter, but the lack of social norms about public displays of racism in nearly every Euopean country in at least one major social context (sports, politics or both) is wholly different from the way unrepentant racists are treated in the US.

bullshit.  a)  italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).  there is no other (western) euro country that is similar.  b)  part of what you perceive is through the prism of your own us centric perception of racism, europeans don't have the history of subjugating a specific skin-color defined class of people within their own country, so they understandably lack the petrifying fear of being considered racist.  c)  those same northern wacko are as likely to call a sicilian a monkey as an african.  in southern spain, i heard considerably more negative commentary about the "northern barbarians" and the roma than about asian or african immigrants.  to jump on anti-immigrant sentiment and/or ethnic/cultural chauvinism and consider to be comparable with us style racism is wrong and ignorant.

You really think that Naples or Rome are not racist?  LOL ok then.  Speaking of Spain, I was at a truck stop with a dark skinned teenage African-American and it might as well have been Jim Crow Mississippi as far as the patrons of the place were concerned.  She was insulted by multiple people for no reason at all.

And I love how your excuse is "its not racism, its just subtle ethnocentric prejudice based on their own set of historical and cultural practices!"  I mean, is this a rough ridin' parody? 

Let me re-state some first principles. When I say racism, I mean they are being racist.  Just because the ethnic groups they are racist against don't perfectly match the U.S. doesn't mean there isn't rampant racism.  Anti-semitism is much worse for instance, you mentioned the Roma or Africans or Indians or or or and on and on it goes. 

The founding concept of nearly every country in the E.U. is, on a pretty base level, the maintenance of their majority ethnic group.  Of course context matters, but that does not excuse racism.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on August 02, 2013, 09:45:16 PM
As far as racism goes, you are just wrong.  There is no modern U.S. equivalents to the kind of crap that is going on in Italy right now with regards to how people are treating their immigration minister.  You could argue that people in the U.S. are just as likely to believe or say racist things on twitter, but the lack of social norms about public displays of racism in nearly every Euopean country in at least one major social context (sports, politics or both) is wholly different from the way unrepentant racists are treated in the US.

bullshit.  a)  italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).  there is no other (western) euro country that is similar.  b)  part of what you perceive is through the prism of your own us centric perception of racism, europeans don't have the history of subjugating a specific skin-color defined class of people within their own country, so they understandably lack the petrifying fear of being considered racist.  c)  those same northern wacko are as likely to call a sicilian a monkey as an african.  in southern spain, i heard considerably more negative commentary about the "northern barbarians" and the roma than about asian or african immigrants.  to jump on anti-immigrant sentiment and/or ethnic/cultural chauvinism and consider to be comparable with us style racism is wrong and ignorant.

Not sure which is better:

"a specific skin-color defined class of people" side-stepping the Holocaust or "within" disqualifying European history from the Age of Exploration on.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: chum1 on August 02, 2013, 09:51:51 PM
Another contentious part of KK's position:  Europe is significantly more racist than many other places in the world. 
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on August 02, 2013, 09:53:31 PM
i never said it was subtle.  i said it wasn't comparable with us racism.  when there are groups of people of the same skin color as well as a shared language, religion and nationality that are treated in every way as much like outsiders as are people of different races and nations, then that is not racism as it in the same way as racism exists in the us.

antisemitism almost doesn't exist in the us.  it is (still) far, far, far worse in europe than here.  i agree with that.


and give me a break about what you may have overheard at a truckstop.  i lived in spain for a goodly part of three years.  i taught at a school (one attended by a reasonable % of 2nd gen immigrants) there, i have a pretty rough ridin' good idea of how racist or not racist they are.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: steve dave on August 02, 2013, 09:55:15 PM
I'm white as crap. racism will not effect where I choose to live post USA exploding or whatever.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on August 02, 2013, 09:55:48 PM
Another contentious part of KK's position:  Europe is significantly more racist than many other places in the world.

Pretty much every person is more racist than me.  It is a problem.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: CHONGS on August 02, 2013, 09:57:55 PM
The only people more racist than the Spaniards are the Italians and Argentinians (and its close).
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on August 02, 2013, 09:59:36 PM
Not sure which is better:

"a specific skin-color defined class of people" side-stepping the Holocaust or "within" disqualifying European history from the Age of Exploration on.

i'm not trying to place a value judgment on either european or american behavior.  i'm trying to place current attitudes in context.  rightly or wrongly, europeans don't consider themselves jointly responsible for the holocaust.  that was germany and no one else as far as the development of gentile guilt goes.  "within" matters, because just like americans don't fall over themselves apologizing to the unseen, unheard masses harmed by our own imperial pretensions, modern european psychology spares no more than a "such a shame" cluck of the tongue for whatever atrocities passed beneath imperial banners in centuries past. 
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on August 02, 2013, 10:00:42 PM
i never said it was subtle.  i said it wasn't comparable with us racism.  when there are groups of people of the same skin color as well as a shared language, religion and nationality that are treated in every way as much like outsiders as are people of different races and nations, then that is not racism as it in the same way as racism exists in the us.

antisemitism almost doesn't exist in the us.  it is (still) far, far, far worse in europe than here.  i agree with that.


and give me a break about what you may have overheard at a truckstop.  i lived in spain for a goodly part of three years.  i taught at a school (one attended by a reasonable % of 2nd gen immigrants) there, i have a pretty rough ridin' good idea of how racist or not racist they are.

Fine.  I think we are an impasse, but more in agreement than we were.  I still think you are full of crap about housing and I think I was having a hard time expressing what I meant by bureaucracies, but I think we covered most of it in the ethnocentrism part.  I still don't like monarchies as quixotic as resistance to America's political oligarchical fiefdoms already is.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: steve dave on August 02, 2013, 10:01:10 PM
oh crap, we've just turned into the final straight away and the argument is down to who is least racist. let's see what they decide. ok.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on August 02, 2013, 10:04:07 PM
I think we are an impasse, but more in agreement than we were.

fair enough.  i need to go recharge my computer anyways.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on August 02, 2013, 10:05:46 PM
Not sure which is better:

"a specific skin-color defined class of people" side-stepping the Holocaust or "within" disqualifying European history from the Age of Exploration on.

i'm not trying to place a value judgment on either european or american behavior.  i'm trying to place current attitudes in context.  rightly or wrongly, europeans don't consider themselves jointly responsible for the holocaust.  that was germany and no one else as far as the development of gentile guilt goes.  "within" matters, because just like americans don't fall over themselves apologizing to the unseen, unheard masses harmed by our own imperial pretensions, modern european psychology spares no more than a "such a shame" cluck of the tongue for whatever atrocities passed beneath imperial banners in centuries past.

I almost completely agree, but those are all explanations/justifications for the current phenomena that I call racism and you call something else.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Emo EMAW on August 02, 2013, 10:28:56 PM
why in the world would you think you'd dislike living in europe?

high cost of living, small homes/weird appliances, really weird, annoying, old institutions/bureaucracies/townie cultures, racists.  Obviously there would be a lot of plusses, but I'd rather visit than live there.

most of those are your imagination.

No they are not.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Rams on August 02, 2013, 10:37:26 PM
ireland until I learned enough italian to live comfortably in italy and then I would probably move to italy.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on August 02, 2013, 11:45:09 PM
I certainly cannot attest for all of Europe, but holy crap, Italians are incredibly racist. It's also perfectly acceptable to dress in blackface in many European countries. The racism actually appears to be getting worse, not better, with the influx of North African immigrants that many European countries have allowed to get completely out of control. I can personally attest to the many conversations I've had with Europeans of many different nationalities, professionals, mind you, who will suddenly say something completely racist without batting an eye.

As for cost of living, the cost of energy is through the rough ridin' roof in most European countries. That cost creeps into everything else. As a result, shitbox little European cars, shitbox little European apartments, no little extravagances like ice in you drink, a free refill, cold air conditioning, are very much the norm. Europeans have mastered the art of living with less. That's not to say many aren't perfectly happy - it's what they know.

And of course these are generalizations, but they're generally true.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: kim carnes on August 02, 2013, 11:47:57 PM
I bet you guys get along swell.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: michigancat on August 02, 2013, 11:58:15 PM
It would be kind of fun to open a factory in Africa or something. But probably really hard
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on August 03, 2013, 12:35:30 AM
It would be kind of fun to open a factory in Africa or something. But probably really hard

You and I have very different definitions of fun.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: bubbles4ksu on August 03, 2013, 01:10:52 AM
ireland until I learned enough italian to live comfortably in italy and then I would probably move to italy.

wtf? you guys are insane. italy is a horrible place. it's corrupt besides being racist. what other country has its leaders getting bagged for sexing up underage prostitutes? it's a shithole and i can't believe sys defends it like he does.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Emo EMAW on August 03, 2013, 11:30:25 AM
Italy is also one of the places in Europe with more litter than St Louis.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on August 03, 2013, 11:42:46 AM
New Zealand, Jamaica, & Ireland.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: eastcat on August 03, 2013, 12:01:02 PM
After reading about Salt water crocodiles and how aggressive they are, I no longer have any desire to live in Australia.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on August 03, 2013, 12:05:13 PM
corruption is one of the things that makes mexico, italy and to a considerably lesser extent, spain, such nice places to live.  largely due to said corruption, people in those countries don't have the nauseating respect for, and deference to, authority and public institutions that make the us and germany so intolerable.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: wetwillie on August 03, 2013, 12:11:24 PM
Thailand
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: chum1 on August 03, 2013, 12:13:05 PM
Australia also has GIANT rough ridin' bugs.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 03, 2013, 12:19:32 PM
No salt water crocs, no racist italians, normal sized bugs, and a british mansion for each of us. Yeah, I'd say UK is in the lead at this point.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: michigancat on August 03, 2013, 12:48:08 PM
also australia will be full of obnoxious americans since it's basically america-lite
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 03, 2013, 12:53:50 PM
also australia will be full of obnoxious americans since it's basically america-lite

Nothing is more krustykrustyMichicat than thinking americans are lame.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: michigancat on August 03, 2013, 12:56:17 PM
also australia will be full of obnoxious americans since it's basically america-lite

Nothing is more krustykrustyMichicat than thinking americans are lame.

just the americans that would pick australia in this exercise. Plus you have to assume there would be lots of anti-american backlash and discrimination in areas of high american concentration.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: ChiComCat on August 03, 2013, 12:57:45 PM
also australia will be full of obnoxious americans since it's basically america-lite

Nothing is more krustykrustyMichicat than thinking americans are lame.

just the americans that would pick australia in this exercise. Plus you have to assume there would be lots of anti-american backlash and discrimination in areas of high american concentration.

Australians: :shakesfist: Gentrification!!!
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: bubbles4ksu on August 03, 2013, 01:04:04 PM
I would choose Australia if I wanted life to be one long deck party with my best bros. That sounds pretty good at this stage.
Title: Re: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: 8manpick on August 03, 2013, 01:07:05 PM
I would choose Australia if I wanted life to be one long deck party with my best bros. That sounds pretty good at this stage.

That is exactly what they do i'm pretty sure. Also, as a group, they are some of the best bingers around
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: pissclams on August 03, 2013, 01:21:39 PM
i would love to live in australia just to listen to them talk, their accents are hilarious to me
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: bubbles4ksu on August 03, 2013, 01:22:34 PM
corruption is one of the things that makes mexico, italy and to a considerably lesser extent, spain, such nice places to live.  largely due to said corruption, people in those countries don't have the nauseating respect for, and deference to, authority and public institutions that make the us and germany so intolerable.

interesting that you choose...i don't know exactly what...more honesty between people?....over a better functioning government. i wish everyone who considered themselves a libertarian was as steadfast in their beliefs as you, sys.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: DQ12 on August 03, 2013, 01:31:42 PM
yes, i appreciate sys's consistency.  consistency of values is an important trait.
Title: Re: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: michigancat on August 03, 2013, 01:35:24 PM
yes, i appreciate sys's consistency.  consistency of values is an important trait.

I bet things like government nature preserves or legislation to protect snakes or something present quite the pickle for sys.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: kim carnes on August 03, 2013, 01:42:34 PM
U guys are weird.  I would live in st barts
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: mocat on August 03, 2013, 02:07:49 PM
I thoroughly enjoyed that sys vs kk battle
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: star seed 7 on August 03, 2013, 03:43:47 PM
Every Australian I've met has been super funny, interesting, loves to have a good time, and nice. That, the beautiful country, and perfect weather in Sydney are why I chose it.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: eastcat on August 03, 2013, 03:49:21 PM
Thailand

Salt water crocodiles.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: star seed 7 on August 03, 2013, 03:51:56 PM
Thailand

Salt water crocodiles.

Is that code for child-rough ridin'?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: eastcat on August 03, 2013, 04:00:06 PM
Thailand

Salt water crocodiles.

Is that code for child-rough ridin'?

Beast that actively targets humans as prey. Big AF too.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fresources2.news.com.au%2Fimages%2F2011%2F07%2F12%2F1226092%2F868158-croc-brutus.jpg&hash=d91ff8099ed4329d2b572468f225406fe2e43f1a)
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc.net.au%2Fnews%2Fimage%2F4270078-3x2-340x227.jpg&hash=8e4bd669bab28a02414d765ad96686558011930f)
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.australiasoutback.com%2Ftravelling-in-the-nt%2Fsafety-information%2F%7E%2Fmedia%2FImages%2FTourismNT%2FKakadu%2520and%2520Arnhem%2520Land%2Fcrocodile_safety_sign_kak_arn_r_kate_540x304.ashx&hash=d9da31adb27195802380e181cc49abf454cc43cf)
Saltwater crocodiles.

Title: Re: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on August 03, 2013, 06:00:35 PM
yes, i appreciate sys's consistency.  consistency of values is an important trait.

I bet things like government nature preserves or legislation to protect snakes or something present quite the pickle for sys.

not at all.  jeremy grantham on reserves.  i'm largely against legislation protecting species, but not in concept, just that most protection regs are so poorly designed from a pop biol viewpoint.  i'm very pragmatic and empirical, so i'd be all for effective, efficient legislation if someone could write and implement it.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 03, 2013, 06:29:39 PM
Many moons ago in another life I had a customer who was quite wealthy.   She flew her French boyfriend over to the states and when she went to her usual Jamaican dealer to get stocked for the weekend (after the stop at the high end liqueur store to pick up a case of Cristal) her French boyfriend came unglued because the dude was, well, black.   Nasty scene. 

Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: cas4ksu on August 03, 2013, 07:01:54 PM
def. Canada.
Title: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: bubbles4ksu on August 03, 2013, 07:43:53 PM
He's lying michcat, take a shot him.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: kim carnes on August 03, 2013, 07:44:26 PM
Many moons ago in another life I had a customer who was quite wealthy.   She flew her French boyfriend over to the states and when she went to her usual Jamaican dealer to get stocked for the weekend (after the stop at the high end liqueur store to pick up a case of Cristal) her French boyfriend came unglued because the dude was, well, black.   Nasty scene.

:lol:
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: ben ji on August 03, 2013, 08:01:11 PM
Speaking of european racism, they Hhhaaatttteeeeeee gypsies.  Like its a combination of every racial slur in the US combined.

Was in vegas 2 years ago and our dealer was Italian. She took a couple hundred bucks from me over the course of some shoes and I casually called her a gypsy... she DID NOT take it well, called pitboss over and I apologized.

Was talking in a borat voice and didn't mean to offend her. :(
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: pissclams on August 03, 2013, 08:27:57 PM
Speaking of european racism, they Hhhaaatttteeeeeee gypsies.  Like its a combination of every racial slur in the US combined.

Was in vegas 2 years ago and our dealer was Italian. She took a couple hundred bucks from me over the course of some shoes and I casually called her a gypsy... she DID NOT take it well, called pitboss over and I apologized.

Was talking in a borat voice and didn't mean to offend her. :(

ya, it's funny.  there were a bunch of gypsies in seville, spain.  they try to rub little twigs on you and then sell them too you.  freaked me out and i would get mad at them.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Rams on August 03, 2013, 09:04:36 PM
I'm changing my answer to costa rica.

but not cause any of you made me dislike Italy.  just because I think costa rica would be badass.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on October 27, 2013, 06:57:08 PM
re: italians being racist.

http://gawker.com/fashions-elite-got-good-and-blackfaced-at-a-party-in-m-1453039552 (http://gawker.com/fashions-elite-got-good-and-blackfaced-at-a-party-in-m-1453039552)
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on October 27, 2013, 06:58:34 PM
italians are the worst. just the rough ridin' worst.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Trim on October 27, 2013, 08:14:40 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/entertainment/2013/10/julianne-hough-apologizes-for-donning-blackface/
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: chum1 on October 27, 2013, 08:30:36 PM
Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: HerrSonntag on October 27, 2013, 08:56:48 PM
I've always thought Chile would be pretty kickass.  I've been to Germany a few times and always liked it, but its more of a nice place to visit...
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: bubbles4ksu on October 27, 2013, 09:15:36 PM
Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?

yes. on opposite day.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Dugout DickStone on October 27, 2013, 09:20:37 PM
The smartest Italians in the world were the cast of Jersey Shore.  Who knew?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: FunruhCat76 on October 27, 2013, 09:21:37 PM
Austria... there's no question.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Asteriskhead on October 27, 2013, 09:36:04 PM
Austria... there's no question.

i think you can get those little sausages in more than two countries, if you were basing your choice on the availability of those things. like, they probably aren't even made in vienna. i'd bet they are available wherever people eat gross meat out of tin cans.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on October 27, 2013, 09:50:40 PM
Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?

Not to revisit the entire meta debate, but sys conceded that a number of the examples of European's actions were racist in effect, but just had a different historical context.  He specifically called out Northern Italy. 

Quote
a)  italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).

Even more contrarian than sys or rusty!  Congrats!
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: chum1 on October 27, 2013, 10:47:48 PM
Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?

Not to revisit the entire meta debate, but sys conceded that a number of the examples of European's actions were racist in effect, but just had a different historical context.  He specifically called out Northern Italy. 

Quote
a)  italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).

Even more contrarian than sys or rusty!  Congrats!

I don't think Italians have the same reaction to this as Americans, but it's hard for me to believe that's because they're all racist wackos.  I had an Northern Italian acquaintance who I really don't think was racist, but also probably wouldn't stop to think that there might be something wrong with this.  I don't think that's inconsistent given the differences in our socities or understand why it couldn't be the norm for Italians.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on October 27, 2013, 10:55:30 PM
Why are some people using language as some kind of criteria? Everyone speaks English, guys.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on October 27, 2013, 10:56:42 PM
The smartest Italians in the world were the cast of Jersey Shore.  Who knew?

They used to rule almost the entire world. Thank God we weren't around to see that.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on October 27, 2013, 10:59:54 PM
Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?

Not to revisit the entire meta debate, but sys conceded that a number of the examples of European's actions were racist in effect, but just had a different historical context.  He specifically called out Northern Italy. 

Quote
a)  italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).

Even more contrarian than sys or rusty!  Congrats!

I don't think Italians have the same reaction to this as Americans, but it's hard for me to believe that's because they're all racist wackos.  I had an Northern Italian acquaintance who I really don't think was racist, but also probably wouldn't stop to think that there might be something wrong with this.  I don't think that's inconsistent given the differences in our socities or understand why it couldn't be the norm for Italians.

Do we really have to revisit the definition of racism?  Or is America's civil war and lack of a "nation state" sufficient to ignore that inconvenient definition?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Dugout DickStone on October 27, 2013, 11:00:16 PM
The smartest Italians in the world were the cast of Jersey Shore.  Who knew?

They used to rule almost the entire world. Thank God we weren't around to see that.

For like a week.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: chum1 on October 27, 2013, 11:45:53 PM
Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?

Not to revisit the entire meta debate, but sys conceded that a number of the examples of European's actions were racist in effect, but just had a different historical context.  He specifically called out Northern Italy. 

Quote
a)  italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).

Even more contrarian than sys or rusty!  Congrats!

I don't think Italians have the same reaction to this as Americans, but it's hard for me to believe that's because they're all racist wackos.  I had an Northern Italian acquaintance who I really don't think was racist, but also probably wouldn't stop to think that there might be something wrong with this.  I don't think that's inconsistent given the differences in our socities or understand why it couldn't be the norm for Italians.

Do we really have to revisit the definition of racism?  Or is America's civil war and lack of a "nation state" sufficient to ignore that inconvenient definition?

Going by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism, isn't there plenty of room for a distinction between something that's racial in nature and offensive and something that's racist?  Suppose someone comes from a place where the language is identical to English with the exception that the word "black" does not exist, and instead the n-word is used in its place.  So, for example, instead of saying "black cat," one would say "n-word cat."  If someone from outside of this place hears a person from this place say the n-word, does it then necessarily follow that this person is racist?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: bubbles4ksu on October 28, 2013, 10:05:43 AM
Going by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism, isn't there plenty of room for a distinction between something that's racial in nature and offensive and something that's racist?  Suppose someone comes from a place where the language is identical to English with the exception that the word "black" does not exist, and instead the n-word is used in its place.  So, for example, instead of saying "black cat," one would say "n-word cat."  If someone from outside of this place hears a person from this place say the n-word, does it then necessarily follow that this person is racist?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284754/Inter-Milan-fined-43-000-Serie-A-Mario-Balotelli-racist-abuse.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284754/Inter-Milan-fined-43-000-Serie-A-Mario-Balotelli-racist-abuse.html)

seems racist and not merely racial in nature and offensive.

(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2013%2F02%2F25%2Farticle-2283901-184461D9000005DC-532_634x317.jpg&hash=389247ca215ec016c622189449621f67496f2b66)
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: star seed 7 on October 28, 2013, 02:46:37 PM
Going by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism, isn't there plenty of room for a distinction between something that's racial in nature and offensive and something that's racist?  Suppose someone comes from a place where the language is identical to English with the exception that the word "black" does not exist, and instead the n-word is used in its place.  So, for example, instead of saying "black cat," one would say "n-word cat."  If someone from outside of this place hears a person from this place say the n-word, does it then necessarily follow that this person is racist?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284754/Inter-Milan-fined-43-000-Serie-A-Mario-Balotelli-racist-abuse.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284754/Inter-Milan-fined-43-000-Serie-A-Mario-Balotelli-racist-abuse.html)

seems racist and not merely racial in nature and offensive.

(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2013%2F02%2F25%2Farticle-2283901-184461D9000005DC-532_634x317.jpg&hash=389247ca215ec016c622189449621f67496f2b66)

Sounds like 1980's ahearn field house
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: bubbles4ksu on October 28, 2013, 04:38:37 PM
Cultural backwater from a generation and a half ago vs. Olympic city that is home to The Last Supper.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: chum1 on October 28, 2013, 05:07:01 PM
Cultural backwater from a generation and a half ago vs. Olympic city that is home to The Last Supper.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Italy: racist.  U.S.: not racist.  Aren't we lucky!?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on October 28, 2013, 06:19:03 PM
Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?

Not to revisit the entire meta debate, but sys conceded that a number of the examples of European's actions were racist in effect, but just had a different historical context.  He specifically called out Northern Italy. 

Quote
a)  italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).

Even more contrarian than sys or rusty!  Congrats!

I don't think Italians have the same reaction to this as Americans, but it's hard for me to believe that's because they're all racist wackos.  I had an Northern Italian acquaintance who I really don't think was racist, but also probably wouldn't stop to think that there might be something wrong with this.  I don't think that's inconsistent given the differences in our socities or understand why it couldn't be the norm for Italians.

Do we really have to revisit the definition of racism?  Or is America's civil war and lack of a "nation state" sufficient to ignore that inconvenient definition?

Going by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism, isn't there plenty of room for a distinction between something that's racial in nature and offensive and something that's racist?  Suppose someone comes from a place where the language is identical to English with the exception that the word "black" does not exist, and instead the n-word is used in its place.  So, for example, instead of saying "black cat," one would say "n-word cat."  If someone from outside of this place hears a person from this place say the n-word, does it then necessarily follow that this person is racist?

Your first statement is much stronger than your example given.  If you really think that the examples previously provided, and reiterated below, aren't racism but are simply "racial" or "race-ish" then I don't know how to continue.

Three other responses:

1)  It might be more helpful to use actual examples before we change the subject to hypotheticals.  Since you brought up animals, the insults below are racist cliches that are clearly global, despite what some racists say post-hoc.:

Italy
exhibit A:  http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/08/cecile-kyenge-quest-for-tolerance (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/08/cecile-kyenge-quest-for-tolerance)
exhibit B:  http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/13/racism-mario-balotelli-kevin-prince-boateng-italy (http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/13/racism-mario-balotelli-kevin-prince-boateng-italy)

Spain
exhibit C:  http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/08/spain.sport (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/08/spain.sport)

2)  Your specific example: There is an enormous difference between calling your cat or dog negrito and calling a person that.

3)  I am genuinely curious as to how anyone can genuinely believe that: large groups of people, in public, regularly use racist language against black people, causing emotional harm to their victims, and yet don't realize this is the effect of their actions. 
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on October 28, 2013, 06:19:47 PM
Going by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism, isn't there plenty of room for a distinction between something that's racial in nature and offensive and something that's racist?  Suppose someone comes from a place where the language is identical to English with the exception that the word "black" does not exist, and instead the n-word is used in its place.  So, for example, instead of saying "black cat," one would say "n-word cat."  If someone from outside of this place hears a person from this place say the n-word, does it then necessarily follow that this person is racist?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284754/Inter-Milan-fined-43-000-Serie-A-Mario-Balotelli-racist-abuse.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284754/Inter-Milan-fined-43-000-Serie-A-Mario-Balotelli-racist-abuse.html)

seems racist and not merely racial in nature and offensive.

(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2013%2F02%2F25%2Farticle-2283901-184461D9000005DC-532_634x317.jpg&hash=389247ca215ec016c622189449621f67496f2b66)

Sounds like 1980's ahearn field house

Someone is catching on!
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on October 28, 2013, 06:21:09 PM
Cultural backwater from a generation and a half ago vs. Olympic city that is home to The Last Supper.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Italy: racist.  U.S.: not racist.  Aren't we lucky!?

Is context important to this discussion or not?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: chum1 on October 28, 2013, 09:24:51 PM
I'm sure those are fine examples of racism.  I guess I'm thinking about three things here.

1.  How strong is the correlation between the examples and the racism attributable to the average Italian - the people we would ordinarily encounter if we chose to live in Italy?  After all, we can probably find examples of racism in other countries, yet we have singled out Italy here in this thread.

Maybe I misread sys, but I found much of what he was saying to be reminiscent of things I've heard from European people who have essentially told me, "Hey, look.  We don't care about the same things you do.  We don't understand why you make such a big fuss over this stuff."  This led me to earlier wonder about a couple of things.

2.  Maybe the wrongness of casual acceptance of certain sorts of racism by the average Italian just isn't as absolute as the wrongness of, say, cold blooded murder. 

3.  Or maybe it is, but maybe there are cases (similar in kind to the black cat example) in which people with different backgrounds view the same sets of circumstances from different perspectives and, consequently, make different judgments about them.

I'm not arguing one way or another here, but I do believe these things are worth considering - especially given our perceived tendency as Americans to be a bit egocentric.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: 0.42 on October 28, 2013, 10:36:09 PM
South Korea. Great food. Not as bizarre or romantically closed off as Japan and much, much cleaner than China. Also endless videos talking crap on Kim Jong Il/Un. Amazing internet. I mean I would probably be hunched over in buildings all the time since I'm 6'4" but scoliosis seems like a small price to pay to live in one of the world's emerging powerhouses.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on October 29, 2013, 08:11:58 AM
I'm sure those are fine examples of racism.  I guess I'm thinking about three things here.

1.  How strong is the correlation between the examples and the racism attributable to the average Italian - the people we would ordinarily encounter if we chose to live in Italy? 

There are also some structural differences in government that allow regional, extremist parties with openly nationalist or racist platforms to become part of the mainstream, but these are quibbles over cause and not effect.  But I think the presence of this public group of racists and the pervasive culture that allows their continued public displays pulls the mean and the median toward that racism and/or pervasiveness. 

But I am more than happy to proclaim my willingness to make some value judgments about other cultures when there are real, documented victims.  I don't think that is necessarily ethnocentric.

Quote
After all, we can probably find examples of racism in other countries, yet we have singled out Italy here in this thread.

Sure.  I mean, for instance India still has an estimated 14 million people in slavery http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/17/world/global-slavery-index/ (http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/17/world/global-slavery-index/).  But I think there is clearly a false belief that Europe in general is "not very racist at all" or maybe "less racist than the United States."  I'm debating people here about that very topic. 

The reason I included the examples I did, was an attempt to provide anecdotes that went beyond one-to-one interactions of the type so often parodied here regarding visiting college football fans.  The examples I provided were of groups of individuals, in public, saying blatantly racist things.  These examples are one of the main supports of my argument that Italy is a racist, and more racist than the United States.

Now if this argument were about drawing an analogy to American racism and use of racist iconography via the Confederate flag and Italian use of fascist/Nazi iconography via the fascist salute/Mussolini/Hitler I would agree that it is more analogous than not.  The histories are different, the points of reference are different.  But again, let's go back to the effect of these cultural attitudes.

Quote
Maybe I misread sys, but I found much of what he was saying to be reminiscent of things I've heard from European people who have essentially told me, "Hey, look.  We don't care about the same things you do.  We don't understand why you make such a big fuss over this stuff."  This led me to earlier wonder about a couple of things.

Quote
2.  Maybe the wrongness of casual acceptance of certain sorts of racism by the average Italian just isn't as absolute as the wrongness of, say, cold blooded murder. 

I concede this point, my argument is that this pervasive atmosphere is leading to real harm.  Sure, it wouldn't victimize me as a white American, but we have lots and lots of evidence of black people being harmed by public racism in Italy and other European countries.  I'm not saying there is a 1:1 correlation between this sort of pervasiveness and the harm being done in these very public forums, but it would seem to logically follow.  In the U.S. there is a boutique news media in part dedicated to the public shaming of public and private citizens who say or write racist things in public.  Many of them, such as Gawker, document responses to the State of the Union when people get on twitter and say racist stuff.  This process of public shaming seems to limit the amount of racism that gets openly spewed at people.

Quote
3.  Or maybe it is, but maybe there are cases (similar in kind to the black cat example) in which people with different backgrounds view the same sets of circumstances from different perspectives and, consequently, make different judgments about them.

I'm not arguing one way or another here, but I do believe these things are worth considering - especially given our perceived tendency as Americans to be a bit egocentric.

Again.  I think I've argued pretty persuasively that whatever the intent or the cultural norms that are in play here, when those social norms are interacting with black people it has lead to very public displays of in group/out group name calling.  Which is a newspeak way of saying racism.  I'm not sure what is really gained by examining the causes of this without first agreeing that it is absolutely racism.  You've seemed a bit squishy on exactly what you are willing to label as racist which brings us full circle again. 
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: slobber on October 29, 2013, 08:33:47 AM
Oh man, so many to choose from! Here is a quick list, kind of in order, with very little thought behind them:

Norway, Netherlands, France, Spain, Peru, Brazil, Luxembourg, UK, Germany, New Zealand
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: 8manpick on October 29, 2013, 08:59:26 AM
I think I posted in this thread the first time around, but here is my current list:

1. Australia
2. NZ
3. Switzerland
4. Ireland
5. UK
6. Germany
7. Japan
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: HerrSonntag on October 29, 2013, 09:21:07 AM
FYI I would also say, in my observation, that most of Europe is just as racist, if not more so, as the US. 
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: mocat on October 29, 2013, 09:41:37 AM
i think you have to compare the most racist groups in a country to the most racist groups in the comapro country, and also compare the average racism levels and also the mean and median racism levels. like USA could be top-heavy with the KKK and just Mississippi in general, but your average American is pretty deathly afraid of being labeled a racist and most people bend over backwards to avoid even something that is not racist but could be construed racist by anyone. however i bet in italy your average giovanni has no problem spouting out some pretty racist things if he was so inclined because it is certainly less taboo over there
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on October 29, 2013, 09:45:18 AM
i think you have to compare the most racist groups in a country to the most racist groups in the comapro country, and also compare the average racism levels and also the mean and median racism levels. like USA could be top-heavy with the KKK and just Mississippi in general, but your average American is pretty deathly afraid of being labeled a racist and most people bend over backwards to avoid even something that is not racist but could be construed racist by anyone. however i bet in italy your average giovanni has no problem spouting out some pretty racist things if he was so inclined because it is certainly less taboo over there

I think a society should largely be judged upon how ostracized and marginalized racists are in their society.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: mocat on October 29, 2013, 09:47:21 AM
i think you have to compare the most racist groups in a country to the most racist groups in the comapro country, and also compare the average racism levels and also the mean and median racism levels. like USA could be top-heavy with the KKK and just Mississippi in general, but your average American is pretty deathly afraid of being labeled a racist and most people bend over backwards to avoid even something that is not racist but could be construed racist by anyone. however i bet in italy your average giovanni has no problem spouting out some pretty racist things if he was so inclined because it is certainly less taboo over there

I think a society should largely be judged upon how ostracized and marginalized racists are in their society.

well consider that the KKK lives in off-the-grid shacks in the woods, whereas italy racists have front row tix to see AC Milan
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on October 29, 2013, 09:48:06 AM
i think you have to compare the most racist groups in a country to the most racist groups in the comapro country, and also compare the average racism levels and also the mean and median racism levels. like USA could be top-heavy with the KKK and just Mississippi in general, but your average American is pretty deathly afraid of being labeled a racist and most people bend over backwards to avoid even something that is not racist but could be construed racist by anyone. however i bet in italy your average giovanni has no problem spouting out some pretty racist things if he was so inclined because it is certainly less taboo over there

I think a society should largely be judged upon how ostracized and marginalized racists are in their society.

well consider that the KKK lives in off-the-grid shacks in the woods, whereas italy racists have front row tix to see AC Milan

Yeah, I'd say ours is better.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: HerrSonntag on October 29, 2013, 09:57:08 AM
My observation is that its more a young/old divide, over there.  Old people have no problem being blatantly racist but it is appalling to the younger crowd.. to an extent you could say the same about American's though... I remember my grandpa spouting off the N word (in reference to the pictures of indigenous Australians on the wall) at Outback Steakhouse when I was a kid that I was pretty  :sdeek:  about.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: star seed 7 on October 29, 2013, 02:28:47 PM
i think you have to compare the most racist groups in a country to the most racist groups in the comapro country, and also compare the average racism levels and also the mean and median racism levels. like USA could be top-heavy with the KKK and just Mississippi in general, but your average American is pretty deathly afraid of being labeled a racist and most people bend over backwards to avoid even something that is not racist but could be construed racist by anyone. however i bet in italy your average giovanni has no problem spouting out some pretty racist things if he was so inclined because it is certainly less taboo over there

this just goes back to the public shaming that KK was talking about.  i bet there are more "racist" people on this blog than you think, but the public shaming bit holds them from sharing their view (the gE police are especially sensitive in this area).  the bending over backwards to not say something doesn't mean that they don't WANT to say it.  this skews the average pretty heavily.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: mocat on October 29, 2013, 02:55:03 PM
i think you have to compare the most racist groups in a country to the most racist groups in the comapro country, and also compare the average racism levels and also the mean and median racism levels. like USA could be top-heavy with the KKK and just Mississippi in general, but your average American is pretty deathly afraid of being labeled a racist and most people bend over backwards to avoid even something that is not racist but could be construed racist by anyone. however i bet in italy your average giovanni has no problem spouting out some pretty racist things if he was so inclined because it is certainly less taboo over there

this just goes back to the public shaming that KK was talking about.  i bet there are more "racist" people on this blog than you think, but the public shaming bit holds them from sharing their view (the gE police are especially sensitive in this area).  the bending over backwards to not say something doesn't mean that they don't WANT to say it.  this skews the average pretty heavily.

yeah ok but doesn't this all factor into a country's racist rating? if there are "police" everywhere PI'ing people for anything >borderline racist comments, doesn't that help the country's racist rating? i say yes. public shaming is as legit as any other reason
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: star seed 7 on October 29, 2013, 03:14:43 PM
i think you have to compare the most racist groups in a country to the most racist groups in the comapro country, and also compare the average racism levels and also the mean and median racism levels. like USA could be top-heavy with the KKK and just Mississippi in general, but your average American is pretty deathly afraid of being labeled a racist and most people bend over backwards to avoid even something that is not racist but could be construed racist by anyone. however i bet in italy your average giovanni has no problem spouting out some pretty racist things if he was so inclined because it is certainly less taboo over there

this just goes back to the public shaming that KK was talking about.  i bet there are more "racist" people on this blog than you think, but the public shaming bit holds them from sharing their view (the gE police are especially sensitive in this area).  the bending over backwards to not say something doesn't mean that they don't WANT to say it.  this skews the average pretty heavily.

yeah ok but doesn't this all factor into a country's racist rating? if there are "police" everywhere PI'ing people for anything >borderline racist comments, doesn't that help the country's racist rating? i say yes. public shaming is as legit as any other reason

it just hides it from view, kind of the way in the article no one in power would speak about what the inter (inter? soccer is so rough ridin' weird) fans did.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: chum1 on October 29, 2013, 06:05:51 PM
You've seemed a bit squishy on exactly what you are willing to label as racist which brings us full circle again.

Yeah, I mean, it seems like I failed to communicate the idea that I'm open to considering that there may just be some relativism here.  So, like, maybe tolerance of racial slurs is not acceptable in the U.S. and acceptable in Italy not only because of social norms, but because there just is no universal fact of the matter regarding the wrongness of racial slurs.

I can agree that they cause real harm, yet disagree that they're wrong.  Real harm is sometimes caused by regular, old actions with unintended consequences, for example.  So, they're not wrong in virtue of causing real harm.  If they are, it must be for a different reason.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on October 29, 2013, 07:02:26 PM
it seems like I failed to communicate the idea that I'm open to considering that there may just be some relativism here.

i thought the exchange between you and katkid was really interesting (before everyone else diluted the thread with their comments).

i think there are a couple of interesting issues here:

1)  i think katkid is focused on the prevalence, and impact on minority populations, of instances of overt public racism, or at least actions that may be related to, or difficult to distinguish from, racism, while chum1 (and earlier, myself) were more interested in the cultural mindset of the majority population.  it shouldn't necessarily be surprising that those different focuses (foci?) would lead to different thoughts on how racist a society is.

2)  i think one of question of how a society defines identity enters into the equation.  my impression has been that in the united states people, at least for american blacks and american whites, define themselves (and are defined by others by) by race primarily, or perhaps only just very slightly less than by nationality.  in contrast, my impression has been that europeans (really we are talking southern europeans, and we should acknowledge that large parts of europe are very different) define themselves/are defined by ethnicity, nationality or membership in some smaller than national geographically defined group.  to katkid, that difference may seem irrelevant so far as treatment of an immigrant group or some other ethnic minority correlated to an american definition of race is clearly discriminatory or in some way disadvantages the minority group. i (and i suspect chum), would consider the difference more relevant.

(sorry about all the ()s and comma delineated subordinate clauses.  it's how i think.)

Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on October 29, 2013, 07:58:53 PM
it seems like I failed to communicate the idea that I'm open to considering that there may just be some relativism here.
2)  i think one of question of how a society defines identity enters into the equation.  my impression has been that in the united states people, at least for american blacks and american whites, define themselves (and are defined by others by) by race primarily, or perhaps only just very slightly less than by nationality.  in contrast, my impression has been that europeans (really we are talking southern europeans, and we should acknowledge that large parts of europe are very different) define themselves/are defined by ethnicity, nationality or membership in some smaller than national geographically defined group.  to katkid, that difference may seem irrelevant so far as treatment of an immigrant group or some other ethnic minority correlated to an american definition of race is clearly discriminatory or in some way disadvantages the minority group. i (and i suspect chum), would consider the difference more relevant.

I agree with your characterization of my argument.

I will only add that we seem to be very focused about how there is something "lost in translation" by examining the behavior of these Italians through our own (white/black, ______-American, ethnic enclaves) prism of "racism" and "race."  That is true insofar as we all acknowledge the difference between the nation-state construct in play in nearly all of Europe and the "one nation" of our republic.  But I think something is also being obscured about the United States here on two levels.

1)  if we conceptualize the United States and talk about things like the "relative prevalence" or some "smaller than national geographically defined group" we are talking about regionalism.  It is no doubt a very powerful force in Europe.  It is also wrong to be too dismissive of it as a powerful force in the United States.  It is very comforting to get apologetic about the romantic Spaniard from Zaragoza or the Milano from Italy and how they are just expressing their historical place and mourning their cultural loss as they are besieged by accusations of racism from ethnocentric Kansans.

I doubt the American Southerner, clutching his Confederate flag, spouting clearly racist language might get similar consideration.

The parallel of Europe adjusting to the bitter end of the nation-state and the Southern and Border states fear of a black and brown planet is much more apt in my mind than the convoluted reasoning that will explain away a Nazi salute or ape sounds as anything other than the most obvious name.

2) Even if we concede that the stated justification for the racism is pure in-group/out-group hate and not necessarily the bit about racial superiority.  It is a strain of nationalist ideology that must ultimately arrive return to racism as the in-group is slowly purged of the "Romans In Name Only."
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on October 30, 2013, 12:07:08 AM
I doubt the American Southerner, clutching his Confederate flag, spouting clearly racist language might get similar consideration.

i mean, i don't like the loud, offensive nationalist/racists/whatever of europe, either.  i'm talking about the society as a whole.  and i do give the us, including southerners, the same consideration.

i don't have the same antipathy towards racism as a concept as you seem to, though.  i think actions that hurt other people are wrong, regardless of motivation.  and motivation without action bothers me very little.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on October 31, 2013, 09:57:45 PM
"Romans In Name Only."

listen from start to six minute mark.  describe these romans as racist or not racist.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/fooc/fooc_20131026-1200a.mp3
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: HerrSonntag on October 31, 2013, 10:11:14 PM
"Romans In Name Only."

listen from start to six minute mark.  describe these romans as racist or not racist.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/fooc/fooc_20131026-1200a.mp3

In the intro, when they were talking about the stories and said ".. the Angela Merkel bugging rout..." since it was in a british accent, i immediately thought they were talking about a story in which the German Chancellor was getting railed on....  buggering...
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: star seed 7 on November 01, 2013, 02:47:41 AM
I'm still picking Australia, eff the haters, etc.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on November 01, 2013, 07:50:49 AM
"Romans In Name Only."

listen from start to six minute mark.  describe these romans as racist or not racist.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/fooc/fooc_20131026-1200a.mp3

It was 'Gone with the Wind' in Italian.  I absolutely think people should mourn cultural loss.  But the distance dumps Vaseline on our lens into the Old world.  Quaint storybook cobbled roads and alleys of the Old World speak to Americans, and those in multi-cultural London, bombarded by the crass strip mall and highway or the unpleasant change of the corner pub to a Jamaican restaurant or disco.

We are absolutely losing culture, but it is not being replaced by nihilism.  I think Americans in general are much more pragmatic and adaptable to this reality because our institutions and our culture is so young.  The Old World is dying hard.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: slobber on November 01, 2013, 07:54:58 AM
Good lord, how did I leave Malaysia off my list?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: mocat on November 01, 2013, 08:11:43 AM
I'm still picking Australia, eff the haters, etc.

great choice, HARRIET VANGER  :Wha:
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on November 01, 2013, 08:47:10 AM
It was 'Gone with the Wind' in Italian.  I absolutely think people should mourn cultural loss.  But the distance dumps Vaseline on our lens into the Old world.  Quaint storybook cobbled roads and alleys of the Old World speak to Americans, and those in multi-cultural London, bombarded by the crass strip mall and highway or the unpleasant change of the corner pub to a Jamaican restaurant or disco.

We are absolutely losing culture, but it is not being replaced by nihilism.  I think Americans in general are much more pragmatic and adaptable to this reality because our institutions and our culture is so young.  The Old World is dying hard.

good answer.  although i think we're adapting easier because our culture is hardly worth saving.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: puniraptor on November 01, 2013, 09:03:24 AM
I'm still picking Australia, eff the haters, etc.

great choice, HARRIET VANGER  :Wha:

SPOILER ALERT GD MOCAT
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: mocat on November 01, 2013, 09:38:15 AM
i just read the book and i started it 2 days ago and i finished it yesterday. i've never read 590 pages in 2 days before  :sdeek:
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: chum1 on November 01, 2013, 09:44:52 AM
I don't get overly concerned about segregation outside of the U.S. because I don't expect everyone else to share the same values that we do.  Something like stoning women is another matter.  But if, for example, people like their dictator and aren't being mistreated, let them have their dictator.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on November 01, 2013, 09:52:10 AM
so seven doesn't like black people?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Kat Kid on November 01, 2013, 10:07:12 AM
I don't get overly concerned about segregation outside of the U.S. because I don't expect everyone else to share the same values that we do.  Something like stoning women is another matter.  But if, for example, people like their dictator and aren't being mistreated, let them have their dictator.

Your second example is carrying a ton of weight for the first.  Segregation is harmful to the out group(s).  It is pretty well established.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: chum1 on November 01, 2013, 10:20:32 AM
I don't get overly concerned about segregation outside of the U.S. because I don't expect everyone else to share the same values that we do.  Something like stoning women is another matter.  But if, for example, people like their dictator and aren't being mistreated, let them have their dictator.

Your second example is carrying a ton of weight for the first.  Segregation is harmful to the out group(s).  It is pretty well established.

As long as there isn't a basic human rights violation, as in the other example I gave, I'm olay with it. 
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on November 01, 2013, 10:51:16 AM
i just read the book and i started it 2 days ago and i finished it yesterday. i've never read 590 pages in 2 days before  :sdeek:

It's a really good book. I didn't read it that fast, though.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: star seed 7 on November 01, 2013, 02:52:24 PM
so seven doesn't like black people?

:surprised:

no more or less than any other racial group of people.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: salcat on November 01, 2013, 04:59:47 PM
Eff yeah OP. Australia
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: wetwillie on November 01, 2013, 05:47:12 PM
Good lord, how did I leave Malaysia off my list?

Salt water crocs.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: eastcat on November 01, 2013, 06:29:38 PM
Good lord, how did I leave Malaysia off my list?

Salt water crocs.

Good save  :thumbs:
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on January 08, 2014, 01:47:57 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25637069
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: 8manpick on January 08, 2014, 08:23:55 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25637069

So not France then?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: mocat on January 08, 2014, 08:38:48 AM
or yes to France? can't tell whose side you're on here
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Tobias on January 08, 2014, 08:51:13 AM
or yes to France? can't tell whose side you're on here

sounds like france is being a total nazi about these anti-semites
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: mocat on January 08, 2014, 08:54:12 AM
quite the kosher pickle we find ourselves in here
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: the_ugly_clown on January 08, 2014, 10:12:56 AM
After spending a month in there this past fall, New Zealand gets my vote.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: puniraptor on January 08, 2014, 10:16:20 AM
After spending a month in there this past fall, New Zealand gets my vote.

Middle Earth
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 08, 2014, 10:16:37 AM
After spending a month in there this past fall, New Zealand gets my vote.

That's a good one.  Wonder if it will be the same in 20 or 30 years?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Dr Rick Daris on January 08, 2014, 10:39:58 AM
After spending a month in there this past fall, New Zealand gets my vote.

That's a good one.  Wonder if it will be the same in 20 or 30 years?

why wouldn't it be?
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: sys on January 08, 2014, 10:43:59 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25637069

So not France then?

or yes to France? can't tell whose side you're on here

yes to france.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: Emo EMAW on January 08, 2014, 10:46:09 AM
After spending a month in there this past fall, New Zealand gets my vote.

That's a good one.  Wonder if it will be the same in 20 or 30 years?

why wouldn't it be?

I don't know, crap changes ya know?  I mean imagine going back to MHK 30 years ago and someone asking the same question.  Willing to bet MHK is a whole lot different now than people would have guessed back then.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: slobber on March 12, 2014, 06:42:06 AM
Good lord, how did I leave Malaysia off my list?
uhhh, yeah, about that...I changed my mind.
Title: Re: If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?
Post by: 8manpick on March 12, 2014, 09:28:00 AM
Good lord, how did I leave Malaysia off my list?
uhhh, yeah, about that...I changed my mind.

:lol: