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General Discussion => Essentially Flyertalk => Topic started by: star seed 7 on August 02, 2013, 12:32:06 AM
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I'm going with Australia. :)
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Canada. It'd be the most similar, right?
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Canada is so cold though!
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England or Canada.
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Wherever I can play golf year-round.
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County. :D
Falkland island, prince harry as prime minister.
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County. :D
Falkland island, prince harry as prime minister.
:blush:
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obviously, Texas.
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UK
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Sudan
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UK
Yes, definitely. I would be balls deep in London, England. It just feels so right.
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Australia or New Zealand
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poland
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New Zealand or Chile, I can't decide which though
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Switzerland. Freest of the Free and pretty sweet mountains
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Switzerland. Freest of the Free and pretty sweet mountains
social healthcare :love:
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Switzerland. Freest of the Free and pretty sweet mountains
social healthcare :love:
guns :love:
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Sweden / UK
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Panem
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Switzerland. Freest of the Free and pretty sweet mountains
social healthcare :love:
guns :love:
military conscription :love:
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Australia or Cabo San Lucas Mexico
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Titletown
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i spend a lot of time trying to decide. right now, i'm prolly 70-80% italy, spain, portugal, france (in order); 20-30% mexico, uruguay, argentina, chile (in order, but with low conviction). whether the us exists or not is irrelevant.
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Would narrow it down to Aussyland, Germany, Brazil(no favela's) or Uraguay
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spain
denmark (copenhagen)
reunion island
uruguay
hong kong
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Austria
New Zealand
Australia
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Denmark, Switzerland, UK, or Canada.
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canada sucks guys. even the parts that supposedly don't suck like victoria/vancouver suck. I think they got the rep of not sucking based on their relative non suck compared to other more sucky canadian suckholes.
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canada sucks guys. even the parts that supposedly don't suck like victoria/vancouver suck. I think they got the rep of not sucking based on their relative non suck compared to other more sucky canadian suckholes.
Thanks for the advice SD
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Greece, hands down, but for the difficult language and imploding economy. Czech Republic is another appealing option, but again, the language is just atrocious. Australia or New Zealand are the practical choices. Canada would be easiest, but it's just too damned cold.
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Your Moms house, Seven.
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I mean the correct answer for this is Amsterdam right?
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I mean the correct answer for this is Amsterdam right?
Absolutely
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You could find me in Stockholm, Sweden.
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I mean the correct answer for this is Amsterdam right?
there isn't one correct answer. it's a very subjective question.
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I mean the correct answer for this is Amsterdam right?
amsterdam gets pretty old pretty quick, although it's pretty much in the center of northern western europe so there's a lot of great stuff within a couple hours travel time
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Belgium would probably be second for me.
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You could find me in Stockholm, Sweden.
see you there buddy. :excited:
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probably Australia though i've never been there
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Australia
Scotland
Ireland
Iceland
New Zealand
Chile
Maybe Belgium for the beer. :lick:
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You could find me in Stockholm, Sweden.
see you there buddy. :excited:
:cheers:
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You could find me in Stockholm, Sweden.
see you there buddy. :excited:
This is my #2 if for some reason London was closed.
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Switzerland
England
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Probs narnia, but a close second would be new zealand
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Netherlands
Australia
Sweden
England
I think everyone saying Switzerland is a wierdo. The Swiss are very dull.
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Netherlands
Australia
Sweden
England
I think everyone saying Switzerland is a wierdo. The Swiss are very dull.
the swiss rough ridin' suck
eff you swiss
swiss: oh hey guys how about some hot chocolate?
us: shut up dumbass, go ski to the bank or something
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Argentina or Chile.
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New Zealand!
Swiss do have really handy knives though 'Clams.
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I think the French or Italian Riviera would be a nice quaint place to live.
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Egypt with my bro FelixRex
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New Zealand!
closest thing to Narnia, really
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New Zealand!
Shitty beer tho
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SPAIN!!! EASY
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Easter Island
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Argentina or Chile.
Patagonia :drool:
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Costa Rico or Panama
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Switzerland. Freest of the Free and pretty sweet mountains
social healthcare :love:
guns :love:
military conscription :love:
Sounds easy they never fight anybody :love:
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Peru, so I could check out all the sites from Ancient Aliens.
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I just chose Canada because 1. English and 2. It has football (not futbol). You dorks are really going to live someplace where people don't speak English and the only thing they care about is soccer?
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I just chose Canada because 1. English and 2. It has football (not futbol). You dorks are really going to live someplace where people don't speak English and the only thing they care about is soccer?
Rugby is kinda like football only better...
Australia or New Zealand
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I just chose Canada because 1. English and 2. It has football (not futbol). You dorks are really going to live someplace where people don't speak English and the only thing they care about is soccer?
As opposed to a country that only cares about Hockey? Yes.
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croatia
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croatia
it's very "hot" right now. so is Hungary.
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croatia
it's very "hot" right now. so is Hungary.
damn it. i'll look at a map and try again later
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Your Moms house, Seven.
That's in the US, dumbass.
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So if half of these answers are Canada..does that mean Fargo is your #1 desired place to live in the u.s.??
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So if half of these answers are Canada..does that mean Fargo is your #1 desired place to live in the u.s.??
Half the votes? Really!?! I counted about three. But sure, Fargo. It's great! If I wanted to live in Canada but couldn't, sign me up. It's got the best weather on the Fourth of July, TONS of oil, of which apparantly Kansas has none and stadiums that seat 20,000 screaming fans. It's true, lakebison told me all of this.
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There is a decent chance we will retire in Chile or Argentina.
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All people in foreign countries are annoying as eff. Maybe not at first, but they'll seriously get on your nerves after a while. I'd just go ahead and start my own U.S. of A.
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All people in foreign countries are annoying as eff. Maybe not at first, but they'll seriously get on your nerves after a while. I'd just go ahead and start my own U.S. of A.
Texas is way ahead of you on this.
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I don't know. I used to think about this a lot. At this point I'd just say Mexico because that would probably be one of the easiest transitions. I am pretty sure I would hate living in Europe or Asia. South America I could handle. I am a new world person, I just can't turn back across that ocean. If forced to, I'd probably go to Botswana or something for some breathing room. I guess I could do Australia, it is basically America 100 years ago with technology.
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why in the world would you think you'd dislike living in europe?
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why in the world would you think you'd dislike living in europe?
high cost of living, small homes/weird appliances, really weird, annoying, old institutions/bureaucracies/townie cultures, racists. Obviously there would be a lot of plusses, but I'd rather visit than live there.
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why in the world would you think you'd dislike living in europe?
high cost of living, small homes/weird appliances, really weird, annoying, old institutions/bureaucracies/townie cultures, racists. Obviously there would be a lot of plusses, but I'd rather visit than live there.
most of those are your imagination.
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why in the world would you think you'd dislike living in europe?
high cost of living, small homes/weird appliances, really weird, annoying, old institutions/bureaucracies/townie cultures, racists. Obviously there would be a lot of plusses, but I'd rather visit than live there.
most of those are your imagination.
could be. which ones?
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London, probably the best city that's not New York. (Never been, though, so it might be better!)
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London, probably the best city that's not New York. (Never been, though, so it might be better!)
Or Paris
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cost of living, small weird homes/stuff, racists, annoyingness of different cultures/institutions.
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London, probably the best city that's not New York. (Never been, though, so it might be better!)
It is very good and probably the #1 on my if I had to live in Europe places. I could probably not do it or Scandanavia though because of the weather which I left off my critique.
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I am going to limit it to the countries I have been to (Canada, Mexico, Jamaica, England, Ireland, Germany, Austria) as those are the only fair choices I can make.
I would pick the UK.
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cost of living, small weird homes/stuff, racists, annoyingness of different cultures/institutions.
oh bullshit. Please google for like 30 seconds and try and find a counter example.
http://www.realtor.com/international/search-listing/La-Atalaya_SP_CSP002642i0 (http://www.realtor.com/international/search-listing/La-Atalaya_SP_CSP002642i0)
As far as racists, you are clearly wrong unless you are talking about the scandanavians and I've already ruled them out because of weather. Nearly all of the places on your list are in my experience more racist than the U.S. (outside of the South).
The annoyingness of cultures: I get butthurt just thinking about living in a nominal monarchy, I don't put all that on them.
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cost of living, small weird homes/stuff, racists, annoyingness of different cultures/institutions.
oh bullshit. Please google for like 30 seconds and try and find a counter example.
http://www.realtor.com/international/search-listing/La-Atalaya_SP_CSP002642i0 (http://www.realtor.com/international/search-listing/La-Atalaya_SP_CSP002642i0)
As far as racists, you are clearly wrong unless you are talking about the scandanavians and I've already ruled them out because of weather. Nearly all of the places on your list are in my experience more racist than the U.S. (outside of the South).
The annoyingness of cultures: I get butthurt just thinking about living in a nominal monarchy, I don't put all that on them.
my connection is crap, so i'm not going to spend 30 minutes trying to google random houses. you can look for yourself if you like. for the most part anything in spain that you see listed in english is overpriced, but you also have to be realistic. you aren't going to find something cheap in a historic city center (although if you actually want to live in a condo on a golf course, buying in the iberian peninsula might be perfect for you right now). one-off examples either way is a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) way of comparing prices anyways.
http://www.encuentra24.com/espana-es/bienes-raices-venta-de-propiedades
as i'm sure you know, real estate prices vary a ton by region and city anyways, trying to compare the us to europe as entire entities is just ridiculous. there are places in each of those areas where you wouldn't be able to find anything you'd consider living in, and other areas where you can find something very reasonable.
but also, let's not pretend real estate is the same thing as cost of living. my wife and i lived in granada on about 1k euro/month with no problems and no sense of privation.
define racism. europeans are way less obsessed with black/white. they tend to have far stronger regional and national (ethnic nationality, not patriotism) identities. that's not the same thing as us style racism. if i have to choose between the two, i far prefer the euro version.
you live in a country where the two political parties that control access to power will likely include the wife of a former president and a guy whose father and brother have held that office as presidential candidates in the next election. and you want to throw stones at ceremonial monarchs?
it's also weird that you'd consider mexico as your first choice but turn your nose up at all of europe. i'm not going to pretend that living in mexico is more similar to living in europe than to living in the us, because it isn't. but in some of the things you mentioned (weird annoying bureaucracies, institutions, "racism", etc.), mexico is more like europe than like the us.
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this is prolly a better place to look for spanish real estate than the other i linked, if you are so inclined.
http://www.idealista.com/
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I agree about cost of living not being the same as housing, I should've just said cost of housing. A lot of this is just inherent to living in a more densely populated region.
As far as racism goes, you are just wrong. There is no modern U.S. equivalents to the kind of crap that is going on in Italy right now with regards to how people are treating their immigration minister. You could argue that people in the U.S. are just as likely to believe or say racist things on twitter, but the lack of social norms about public displays of racism in nearly every Euopean country in at least one major social context (sports, politics or both) is wholly different from the way unrepentant racists are treated in the US.
Mexico has a very weak central government so it isn't really the same in the way that I meant. It is more disturbing and scary in a lot of ways that Europe isn't for that reason, but it is also relatively easy to circumvent most of that.
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turkey
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turkey
watch out saul, there are a lot of muslims there.
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Great goEMAW battle here. Studs facing off on things. ok. ok. here we go.
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turkey
watch out saul, there are a lot of muslims there.
the good kind
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turkey
watch out saul, there are a lot of muslims there.
the good kind
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
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Europeans are pretty racist against Muslims, it seems.
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turkey
great european country. good choice, saul.
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turkey! :D croatia and hungary too you guys? so hot right now!
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Needs:
Free country (no commies)
Seasons (no all summer/winter type places)
1st world (running water etc)
Affordability! (Affordable)
Which country fits best?
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Also not war torn preferably.
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Needs:
Free country (no commies)
Seasons (no all summer/winter type places)
1st world (running water etc)
Affordability! (Affordable)
Which country fits best?
the kansas part of the UK
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Maybe whatever's next over from Hawaii, or Hawaii if it doesn't get wiped off the map with the rest of the physical U.S.
:dunno:
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Needs:
Free country (no commies)
Seasons (no all summer/winter type places)
1st world (running water etc)
Affordability! (Affordable)
Which country fits best?
the kansas part of the UK
wanna come over to my huge British mansion for some beers when we all move there?
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Needs:
Free country (no commies)
Seasons (no all summer/winter type places)
1st world (running water etc)
Affordability! (Affordable)
Which country fits best?
the kansas part of the UK
wanna come over to my huge British mansion for some beers when we all move there?
yes, absolutely
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As far as racism goes, you are just wrong. There is no modern U.S. equivalents to the kind of crap that is going on in Italy right now with regards to how people are treating their immigration minister. You could argue that people in the U.S. are just as likely to believe or say racist things on twitter, but the lack of social norms about public displays of racism in nearly every Euopean country in at least one major social context (sports, politics or both) is wholly different from the way unrepentant racists are treated in the US.
bullshit. a) italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole). there is no other (western) euro country that is similar. b) part of what you perceive is through the prism of your own us centric perception of racism, europeans don't have the history of subjugating a specific skin-color defined class of people within their own country, so they understandably lack the petrifying fear of being considered racist. c) those same northern wackos are as likely to call a sicilian a monkey as an african. in southern spain, i heard considerably more negative commentary about the "northern barbarians" and the roma than about asian or african immigrants. to jump on anti-immigrant sentiment and/or ethnic/cultural chauvinism and consider it to be comparable with us style racism is wrong and ignorant.
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Needs:
Free country (no commies)
Seasons (no all summer/winter type places)
1st world (running water etc)
Affordability! (Affordable)
Which country fits best?
the kansas part of the UK
wanna come over to my huge British mansion for some beers when we all move there?
yes, absolutely
cool. code on the gate is 84 75. park under the car port if you like.
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I'd like to live in some tropical locale, not too touristy, but a little. I'd live out my days owning and operating something like this
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fregisworld.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F10%2Fimg_0333.jpg&hash=8e772df0dbc07db3c657c21425dbc131f59f852f)
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As far as racism goes, you are just wrong. There is no modern U.S. equivalents to the kind of crap that is going on in Italy right now with regards to how people are treating their immigration minister. You could argue that people in the U.S. are just as likely to believe or say racist things on twitter, but the lack of social norms about public displays of racism in nearly every Euopean country in at least one major social context (sports, politics or both) is wholly different from the way unrepentant racists are treated in the US.
bullshit. a) italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole). there is no other (western) euro country that is similar. b) part of what you perceive is through the prism of your own us centric perception of racism, europeans don't have the history of subjugating a specific skin-color defined class of people within their own country, so they understandably lack the petrifying fear of being considered racist. c) those same northern wacko are as likely to call a sicilian a monkey as an african. in southern spain, i heard considerably more negative commentary about the "northern barbarians" and the roma than about asian or african immigrants. to jump on anti-immigrant sentiment and/or ethnic/cultural chauvinism and consider to be comparable with us style racism is wrong and ignorant.
You really think that Naples or Rome are not racist? LOL ok then. Speaking of Spain, I was at a truck stop with a dark skinned teenage African-American and it might as well have been Jim Crow Mississippi as far as the patrons of the place were concerned. She was insulted by multiple people for no reason at all.
And I love how your excuse is "its not racism, its just subtle ethnocentric prejudice based on their own set of historical and cultural practices!" I mean, is this a rough ridin' parody?
Let me re-state some first principles. When I say racism, I mean they are being racist. Just because the ethnic groups they are racist against don't perfectly match the U.S. doesn't mean there isn't rampant racism. Anti-semitism is much worse for instance, you mentioned the Roma or Africans or Indians or or or and on and on it goes.
The founding concept of nearly every country in the E.U. is, on a pretty base level, the maintenance of their majority ethnic group. Of course context matters, but that does not excuse racism.
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As far as racism goes, you are just wrong. There is no modern U.S. equivalents to the kind of crap that is going on in Italy right now with regards to how people are treating their immigration minister. You could argue that people in the U.S. are just as likely to believe or say racist things on twitter, but the lack of social norms about public displays of racism in nearly every Euopean country in at least one major social context (sports, politics or both) is wholly different from the way unrepentant racists are treated in the US.
bullshit. a) italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole). there is no other (western) euro country that is similar. b) part of what you perceive is through the prism of your own us centric perception of racism, europeans don't have the history of subjugating a specific skin-color defined class of people within their own country, so they understandably lack the petrifying fear of being considered racist. c) those same northern wacko are as likely to call a sicilian a monkey as an african. in southern spain, i heard considerably more negative commentary about the "northern barbarians" and the roma than about asian or african immigrants. to jump on anti-immigrant sentiment and/or ethnic/cultural chauvinism and consider to be comparable with us style racism is wrong and ignorant.
Not sure which is better:
"a specific skin-color defined class of people" side-stepping the Holocaust or "within" disqualifying European history from the Age of Exploration on.
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Another contentious part of KK's position: Europe is significantly more racist than many other places in the world.
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i never said it was subtle. i said it wasn't comparable with us racism. when there are groups of people of the same skin color as well as a shared language, religion and nationality that are treated in every way as much like outsiders as are people of different races and nations, then that is not racism as it in the same way as racism exists in the us.
antisemitism almost doesn't exist in the us. it is (still) far, far, far worse in europe than here. i agree with that.
and give me a break about what you may have overheard at a truckstop. i lived in spain for a goodly part of three years. i taught at a school (one attended by a reasonable % of 2nd gen immigrants) there, i have a pretty rough ridin' good idea of how racist or not racist they are.
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I'm white as crap. racism will not effect where I choose to live post USA exploding or whatever.
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Another contentious part of KK's position: Europe is significantly more racist than many other places in the world.
Pretty much every person is more racist than me. It is a problem.
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The only people more racist than the Spaniards are the Italians and Argentinians (and its close).
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Not sure which is better:
"a specific skin-color defined class of people" side-stepping the Holocaust or "within" disqualifying European history from the Age of Exploration on.
i'm not trying to place a value judgment on either european or american behavior. i'm trying to place current attitudes in context. rightly or wrongly, europeans don't consider themselves jointly responsible for the holocaust. that was germany and no one else as far as the development of gentile guilt goes. "within" matters, because just like americans don't fall over themselves apologizing to the unseen, unheard masses harmed by our own imperial pretensions, modern european psychology spares no more than a "such a shame" cluck of the tongue for whatever atrocities passed beneath imperial banners in centuries past.
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i never said it was subtle. i said it wasn't comparable with us racism. when there are groups of people of the same skin color as well as a shared language, religion and nationality that are treated in every way as much like outsiders as are people of different races and nations, then that is not racism as it in the same way as racism exists in the us.
antisemitism almost doesn't exist in the us. it is (still) far, far, far worse in europe than here. i agree with that.
and give me a break about what you may have overheard at a truckstop. i lived in spain for a goodly part of three years. i taught at a school (one attended by a reasonable % of 2nd gen immigrants) there, i have a pretty rough ridin' good idea of how racist or not racist they are.
Fine. I think we are an impasse, but more in agreement than we were. I still think you are full of crap about housing and I think I was having a hard time expressing what I meant by bureaucracies, but I think we covered most of it in the ethnocentrism part. I still don't like monarchies as quixotic as resistance to America's political oligarchical fiefdoms already is.
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oh crap, we've just turned into the final straight away and the argument is down to who is least racist. let's see what they decide. ok.
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I think we are an impasse, but more in agreement than we were.
fair enough. i need to go recharge my computer anyways.
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Not sure which is better:
"a specific skin-color defined class of people" side-stepping the Holocaust or "within" disqualifying European history from the Age of Exploration on.
i'm not trying to place a value judgment on either european or american behavior. i'm trying to place current attitudes in context. rightly or wrongly, europeans don't consider themselves jointly responsible for the holocaust. that was germany and no one else as far as the development of gentile guilt goes. "within" matters, because just like americans don't fall over themselves apologizing to the unseen, unheard masses harmed by our own imperial pretensions, modern european psychology spares no more than a "such a shame" cluck of the tongue for whatever atrocities passed beneath imperial banners in centuries past.
I almost completely agree, but those are all explanations/justifications for the current phenomena that I call racism and you call something else.
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why in the world would you think you'd dislike living in europe?
high cost of living, small homes/weird appliances, really weird, annoying, old institutions/bureaucracies/townie cultures, racists. Obviously there would be a lot of plusses, but I'd rather visit than live there.
most of those are your imagination.
No they are not.
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ireland until I learned enough italian to live comfortably in italy and then I would probably move to italy.
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I certainly cannot attest for all of Europe, but holy crap, Italians are incredibly racist. It's also perfectly acceptable to dress in blackface in many European countries. The racism actually appears to be getting worse, not better, with the influx of North African immigrants that many European countries have allowed to get completely out of control. I can personally attest to the many conversations I've had with Europeans of many different nationalities, professionals, mind you, who will suddenly say something completely racist without batting an eye.
As for cost of living, the cost of energy is through the rough ridin' roof in most European countries. That cost creeps into everything else. As a result, shitbox little European cars, shitbox little European apartments, no little extravagances like ice in you drink, a free refill, cold air conditioning, are very much the norm. Europeans have mastered the art of living with less. That's not to say many aren't perfectly happy - it's what they know.
And of course these are generalizations, but they're generally true.
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I bet you guys get along swell.
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It would be kind of fun to open a factory in Africa or something. But probably really hard
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It would be kind of fun to open a factory in Africa or something. But probably really hard
You and I have very different definitions of fun.
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ireland until I learned enough italian to live comfortably in italy and then I would probably move to italy.
wtf? you guys are insane. italy is a horrible place. it's corrupt besides being racist. what other country has its leaders getting bagged for sexing up underage prostitutes? it's a shithole and i can't believe sys defends it like he does.
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Italy is also one of the places in Europe with more litter than St Louis.
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New Zealand, Jamaica, & Ireland.
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After reading about Salt water crocodiles and how aggressive they are, I no longer have any desire to live in Australia.
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corruption is one of the things that makes mexico, italy and to a considerably lesser extent, spain, such nice places to live. largely due to said corruption, people in those countries don't have the nauseating respect for, and deference to, authority and public institutions that make the us and germany so intolerable.
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Thailand
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Australia also has GIANT rough ridin' bugs.
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No salt water crocs, no racist italians, normal sized bugs, and a british mansion for each of us. Yeah, I'd say UK is in the lead at this point.
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also australia will be full of obnoxious americans since it's basically america-lite
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also australia will be full of obnoxious americans since it's basically america-lite
Nothing is more krustykrustyMichicat than thinking americans are lame.
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also australia will be full of obnoxious americans since it's basically america-lite
Nothing is more krustykrustyMichicat than thinking americans are lame.
just the americans that would pick australia in this exercise. Plus you have to assume there would be lots of anti-american backlash and discrimination in areas of high american concentration.
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also australia will be full of obnoxious americans since it's basically america-lite
Nothing is more krustykrustyMichicat than thinking americans are lame.
just the americans that would pick australia in this exercise. Plus you have to assume there would be lots of anti-american backlash and discrimination in areas of high american concentration.
Australians: :shakesfist: Gentrification!!!
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I would choose Australia if I wanted life to be one long deck party with my best bros. That sounds pretty good at this stage.
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I would choose Australia if I wanted life to be one long deck party with my best bros. That sounds pretty good at this stage.
That is exactly what they do i'm pretty sure. Also, as a group, they are some of the best bingers around
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i would love to live in australia just to listen to them talk, their accents are hilarious to me
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corruption is one of the things that makes mexico, italy and to a considerably lesser extent, spain, such nice places to live. largely due to said corruption, people in those countries don't have the nauseating respect for, and deference to, authority and public institutions that make the us and germany so intolerable.
interesting that you choose...i don't know exactly what...more honesty between people?....over a better functioning government. i wish everyone who considered themselves a libertarian was as steadfast in their beliefs as you, sys.
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yes, i appreciate sys's consistency. consistency of values is an important trait.
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yes, i appreciate sys's consistency. consistency of values is an important trait.
I bet things like government nature preserves or legislation to protect snakes or something present quite the pickle for sys.
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U guys are weird. I would live in st barts
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I thoroughly enjoyed that sys vs kk battle
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Every Australian I've met has been super funny, interesting, loves to have a good time, and nice. That, the beautiful country, and perfect weather in Sydney are why I chose it.
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Thailand
Salt water crocodiles.
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Thailand
Salt water crocodiles.
Is that code for child-rough ridin'?
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Thailand
Salt water crocodiles.
Is that code for child-rough ridin'?
Beast that actively targets humans as prey. Big AF too.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fresources2.news.com.au%2Fimages%2F2011%2F07%2F12%2F1226092%2F868158-croc-brutus.jpg&hash=d91ff8099ed4329d2b572468f225406fe2e43f1a)
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc.net.au%2Fnews%2Fimage%2F4270078-3x2-340x227.jpg&hash=8e4bd669bab28a02414d765ad96686558011930f)
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.australiasoutback.com%2Ftravelling-in-the-nt%2Fsafety-information%2F%7E%2Fmedia%2FImages%2FTourismNT%2FKakadu%2520and%2520Arnhem%2520Land%2Fcrocodile_safety_sign_kak_arn_r_kate_540x304.ashx&hash=d9da31adb27195802380e181cc49abf454cc43cf)
Saltwater crocodiles.
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yes, i appreciate sys's consistency. consistency of values is an important trait.
I bet things like government nature preserves or legislation to protect snakes or something present quite the pickle for sys.
not at all. jeremy grantham on reserves. i'm largely against legislation protecting species, but not in concept, just that most protection regs are so poorly designed from a pop biol viewpoint. i'm very pragmatic and empirical, so i'd be all for effective, efficient legislation if someone could write and implement it.
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Many moons ago in another life I had a customer who was quite wealthy. She flew her French boyfriend over to the states and when she went to her usual Jamaican dealer to get stocked for the weekend (after the stop at the high end liqueur store to pick up a case of Cristal) her French boyfriend came unglued because the dude was, well, black. Nasty scene.
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def. Canada.
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He's lying michcat, take a shot him.
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Many moons ago in another life I had a customer who was quite wealthy. She flew her French boyfriend over to the states and when she went to her usual Jamaican dealer to get stocked for the weekend (after the stop at the high end liqueur store to pick up a case of Cristal) her French boyfriend came unglued because the dude was, well, black. Nasty scene.
:lol:
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Speaking of european racism, they Hhhaaatttteeeeeee gypsies. Like its a combination of every racial slur in the US combined.
Was in vegas 2 years ago and our dealer was Italian. She took a couple hundred bucks from me over the course of some shoes and I casually called her a gypsy... she DID NOT take it well, called pitboss over and I apologized.
Was talking in a borat voice and didn't mean to offend her. :(
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Speaking of european racism, they Hhhaaatttteeeeeee gypsies. Like its a combination of every racial slur in the US combined.
Was in vegas 2 years ago and our dealer was Italian. She took a couple hundred bucks from me over the course of some shoes and I casually called her a gypsy... she DID NOT take it well, called pitboss over and I apologized.
Was talking in a borat voice and didn't mean to offend her. :(
ya, it's funny. there were a bunch of gypsies in seville, spain. they try to rub little twigs on you and then sell them too you. freaked me out and i would get mad at them.
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I'm changing my answer to costa rica.
but not cause any of you made me dislike Italy. just because I think costa rica would be badass.
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re: italians being racist.
http://gawker.com/fashions-elite-got-good-and-blackfaced-at-a-party-in-m-1453039552 (http://gawker.com/fashions-elite-got-good-and-blackfaced-at-a-party-in-m-1453039552)
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italians are the worst. just the rough ridin' worst.
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http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/entertainment/2013/10/julianne-hough-apologizes-for-donning-blackface/
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Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?
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I've always thought Chile would be pretty kickass. I've been to Germany a few times and always liked it, but its more of a nice place to visit...
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Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?
yes. on opposite day.
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The smartest Italians in the world were the cast of Jersey Shore. Who knew?
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Austria... there's no question.
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Austria... there's no question.
i think you can get those little sausages in more than two countries, if you were basing your choice on the availability of those things. like, they probably aren't even made in vienna. i'd bet they are available wherever people eat gross meat out of tin cans.
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Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?
Not to revisit the entire meta debate, but sys conceded that a number of the examples of European's actions were racist in effect, but just had a different historical context. He specifically called out Northern Italy.
a) italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).
Even more contrarian than sys or rusty! Congrats!
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Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?
Not to revisit the entire meta debate, but sys conceded that a number of the examples of European's actions were racist in effect, but just had a different historical context. He specifically called out Northern Italy.
a) italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).
Even more contrarian than sys or rusty! Congrats!
I don't think Italians have the same reaction to this as Americans, but it's hard for me to believe that's because they're all racist wackos. I had an Northern Italian acquaintance who I really don't think was racist, but also probably wouldn't stop to think that there might be something wrong with this. I don't think that's inconsistent given the differences in our socities or understand why it couldn't be the norm for Italians.
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Why are some people using language as some kind of criteria? Everyone speaks English, guys.
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The smartest Italians in the world were the cast of Jersey Shore. Who knew?
They used to rule almost the entire world. Thank God we weren't around to see that.
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Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?
Not to revisit the entire meta debate, but sys conceded that a number of the examples of European's actions were racist in effect, but just had a different historical context. He specifically called out Northern Italy.
a) italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).
Even more contrarian than sys or rusty! Congrats!
I don't think Italians have the same reaction to this as Americans, but it's hard for me to believe that's because they're all racist wackos. I had an Northern Italian acquaintance who I really don't think was racist, but also probably wouldn't stop to think that there might be something wrong with this. I don't think that's inconsistent given the differences in our socities or understand why it couldn't be the norm for Italians.
Do we really have to revisit the definition of racism? Or is America's civil war and lack of a "nation state" sufficient to ignore that inconvenient definition?
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The smartest Italians in the world were the cast of Jersey Shore. Who knew?
They used to rule almost the entire world. Thank God we weren't around to see that.
For like a week.
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Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?
Not to revisit the entire meta debate, but sys conceded that a number of the examples of European's actions were racist in effect, but just had a different historical context. He specifically called out Northern Italy.
a) italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).
Even more contrarian than sys or rusty! Congrats!
I don't think Italians have the same reaction to this as Americans, but it's hard for me to believe that's because they're all racist wackos. I had an Northern Italian acquaintance who I really don't think was racist, but also probably wouldn't stop to think that there might be something wrong with this. I don't think that's inconsistent given the differences in our socities or understand why it couldn't be the norm for Italians.
Do we really have to revisit the definition of racism? Or is America's civil war and lack of a "nation state" sufficient to ignore that inconvenient definition?
Going by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism, isn't there plenty of room for a distinction between something that's racial in nature and offensive and something that's racist? Suppose someone comes from a place where the language is identical to English with the exception that the word "black" does not exist, and instead the n-word is used in its place. So, for example, instead of saying "black cat," one would say "n-word cat." If someone from outside of this place hears a person from this place say the n-word, does it then necessarily follow that this person is racist?
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Going by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism, isn't there plenty of room for a distinction between something that's racial in nature and offensive and something that's racist? Suppose someone comes from a place where the language is identical to English with the exception that the word "black" does not exist, and instead the n-word is used in its place. So, for example, instead of saying "black cat," one would say "n-word cat." If someone from outside of this place hears a person from this place say the n-word, does it then necessarily follow that this person is racist?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284754/Inter-Milan-fined-43-000-Serie-A-Mario-Balotelli-racist-abuse.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284754/Inter-Milan-fined-43-000-Serie-A-Mario-Balotelli-racist-abuse.html)
seems racist and not merely racial in nature and offensive.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2013%2F02%2F25%2Farticle-2283901-184461D9000005DC-532_634x317.jpg&hash=389247ca215ec016c622189449621f67496f2b66)
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Going by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism, isn't there plenty of room for a distinction between something that's racial in nature and offensive and something that's racist? Suppose someone comes from a place where the language is identical to English with the exception that the word "black" does not exist, and instead the n-word is used in its place. So, for example, instead of saying "black cat," one would say "n-word cat." If someone from outside of this place hears a person from this place say the n-word, does it then necessarily follow that this person is racist?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284754/Inter-Milan-fined-43-000-Serie-A-Mario-Balotelli-racist-abuse.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284754/Inter-Milan-fined-43-000-Serie-A-Mario-Balotelli-racist-abuse.html)
seems racist and not merely racial in nature and offensive.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2013%2F02%2F25%2Farticle-2283901-184461D9000005DC-532_634x317.jpg&hash=389247ca215ec016c622189449621f67496f2b66)
Sounds like 1980's ahearn field house
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Cultural backwater from a generation and a half ago vs. Olympic city that is home to The Last Supper.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
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Cultural backwater from a generation and a half ago vs. Olympic city that is home to The Last Supper.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Italy: racist. U.S.: not racist. Aren't we lucky!?
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Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?
Not to revisit the entire meta debate, but sys conceded that a number of the examples of European's actions were racist in effect, but just had a different historical context. He specifically called out Northern Italy.
a) italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).
Even more contrarian than sys or rusty! Congrats!
I don't think Italians have the same reaction to this as Americans, but it's hard for me to believe that's because they're all racist wackos. I had an Northern Italian acquaintance who I really don't think was racist, but also probably wouldn't stop to think that there might be something wrong with this. I don't think that's inconsistent given the differences in our socities or understand why it couldn't be the norm for Italians.
Do we really have to revisit the definition of racism? Or is America's civil war and lack of a "nation state" sufficient to ignore that inconvenient definition?
Going by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism, isn't there plenty of room for a distinction between something that's racial in nature and offensive and something that's racist? Suppose someone comes from a place where the language is identical to English with the exception that the word "black" does not exist, and instead the n-word is used in its place. So, for example, instead of saying "black cat," one would say "n-word cat." If someone from outside of this place hears a person from this place say the n-word, does it then necessarily follow that this person is racist?
Your first statement is much stronger than your example given. If you really think that the examples previously provided, and reiterated below, aren't racism but are simply "racial" or "race-ish" then I don't know how to continue.
Three other responses:
1) It might be more helpful to use actual examples before we change the subject to hypotheticals. Since you brought up animals, the insults below are racist cliches that are clearly global, despite what some racists say post-hoc.:
Italy
exhibit A: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/08/cecile-kyenge-quest-for-tolerance (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/08/cecile-kyenge-quest-for-tolerance)
exhibit B: http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/13/racism-mario-balotelli-kevin-prince-boateng-italy (http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/13/racism-mario-balotelli-kevin-prince-boateng-italy)
Spain
exhibit C: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/08/spain.sport (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/08/spain.sport)
2) Your specific example: There is an enormous difference between calling your cat or dog negrito and calling a person that.
3) I am genuinely curious as to how anyone can genuinely believe that: large groups of people, in public, regularly use racist language against black people, causing emotional harm to their victims, and yet don't realize this is the effect of their actions.
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Going by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism, isn't there plenty of room for a distinction between something that's racial in nature and offensive and something that's racist? Suppose someone comes from a place where the language is identical to English with the exception that the word "black" does not exist, and instead the n-word is used in its place. So, for example, instead of saying "black cat," one would say "n-word cat." If someone from outside of this place hears a person from this place say the n-word, does it then necessarily follow that this person is racist?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284754/Inter-Milan-fined-43-000-Serie-A-Mario-Balotelli-racist-abuse.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284754/Inter-Milan-fined-43-000-Serie-A-Mario-Balotelli-racist-abuse.html)
seems racist and not merely racial in nature and offensive.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2013%2F02%2F25%2Farticle-2283901-184461D9000005DC-532_634x317.jpg&hash=389247ca215ec016c622189449621f67496f2b66)
Sounds like 1980's ahearn field house
Someone is catching on!
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Cultural backwater from a generation and a half ago vs. Olympic city that is home to The Last Supper.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Italy: racist. U.S.: not racist. Aren't we lucky!?
Is context important to this discussion or not?
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I'm sure those are fine examples of racism. I guess I'm thinking about three things here.
1. How strong is the correlation between the examples and the racism attributable to the average Italian - the people we would ordinarily encounter if we chose to live in Italy? After all, we can probably find examples of racism in other countries, yet we have singled out Italy here in this thread.
Maybe I misread sys, but I found much of what he was saying to be reminiscent of things I've heard from European people who have essentially told me, "Hey, look. We don't care about the same things you do. We don't understand why you make such a big fuss over this stuff." This led me to earlier wonder about a couple of things.
2. Maybe the wrongness of casual acceptance of certain sorts of racism by the average Italian just isn't as absolute as the wrongness of, say, cold blooded murder.
3. Or maybe it is, but maybe there are cases (similar in kind to the black cat example) in which people with different backgrounds view the same sets of circumstances from different perspectives and, consequently, make different judgments about them.
I'm not arguing one way or another here, but I do believe these things are worth considering - especially given our perceived tendency as Americans to be a bit egocentric.
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South Korea. Great food. Not as bizarre or romantically closed off as Japan and much, much cleaner than China. Also endless videos talking crap on Kim Jong Il/Un. Amazing internet. I mean I would probably be hunched over in buildings all the time since I'm 6'4" but scoliosis seems like a small price to pay to live in one of the world's emerging powerhouses.
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I'm sure those are fine examples of racism. I guess I'm thinking about three things here.
1. How strong is the correlation between the examples and the racism attributable to the average Italian - the people we would ordinarily encounter if we chose to live in Italy?
There are also some structural differences in government that allow regional, extremist parties with openly nationalist or racist platforms to become part of the mainstream, but these are quibbles over cause and not effect. But I think the presence of this public group of racists and the pervasive culture that allows their continued public displays pulls the mean and the median toward that racism and/or pervasiveness.
But I am more than happy to proclaim my willingness to make some value judgments about other cultures when there are real, documented victims. I don't think that is necessarily ethnocentric.
After all, we can probably find examples of racism in other countries, yet we have singled out Italy here in this thread.
Sure. I mean, for instance India still has an estimated 14 million people in slavery http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/17/world/global-slavery-index/ (http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/17/world/global-slavery-index/). But I think there is clearly a false belief that Europe in general is "not very racist at all" or maybe "less racist than the United States." I'm debating people here about that very topic.
The reason I included the examples I did, was an attempt to provide anecdotes that went beyond one-to-one interactions of the type so often parodied here regarding visiting college football fans. The examples I provided were of groups of individuals, in public, saying blatantly racist things. These examples are one of the main supports of my argument that Italy is a racist, and more racist than the United States.
Now if this argument were about drawing an analogy to American racism and use of racist iconography via the Confederate flag and Italian use of fascist/Nazi iconography via the fascist salute/Mussolini/Hitler I would agree that it is more analogous than not. The histories are different, the points of reference are different. But again, let's go back to the effect of these cultural attitudes.
Maybe I misread sys, but I found much of what he was saying to be reminiscent of things I've heard from European people who have essentially told me, "Hey, look. We don't care about the same things you do. We don't understand why you make such a big fuss over this stuff." This led me to earlier wonder about a couple of things.
2. Maybe the wrongness of casual acceptance of certain sorts of racism by the average Italian just isn't as absolute as the wrongness of, say, cold blooded murder.
I concede this point, my argument is that this pervasive atmosphere is leading to real harm. Sure, it wouldn't victimize me as a white American, but we have lots and lots of evidence of black people being harmed by public racism in Italy and other European countries. I'm not saying there is a 1:1 correlation between this sort of pervasiveness and the harm being done in these very public forums, but it would seem to logically follow. In the U.S. there is a boutique news media in part dedicated to the public shaming of public and private citizens who say or write racist things in public. Many of them, such as Gawker, document responses to the State of the Union when people get on twitter and say racist stuff. This process of public shaming seems to limit the amount of racism that gets openly spewed at people.
3. Or maybe it is, but maybe there are cases (similar in kind to the black cat example) in which people with different backgrounds view the same sets of circumstances from different perspectives and, consequently, make different judgments about them.
I'm not arguing one way or another here, but I do believe these things are worth considering - especially given our perceived tendency as Americans to be a bit egocentric.
Again. I think I've argued pretty persuasively that whatever the intent or the cultural norms that are in play here, when those social norms are interacting with black people it has lead to very public displays of in group/out group name calling. Which is a newspeak way of saying racism. I'm not sure what is really gained by examining the causes of this without first agreeing that it is absolutely racism. You've seemed a bit squishy on exactly what you are willing to label as racist which brings us full circle again.
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Oh man, so many to choose from! Here is a quick list, kind of in order, with very little thought behind them:
Norway, Netherlands, France, Spain, Peru, Brazil, Luxembourg, UK, Germany, New Zealand
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I think I posted in this thread the first time around, but here is my current list:
1. Australia
2. NZ
3. Switzerland
4. Ireland
5. UK
6. Germany
7. Japan
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FYI I would also say, in my observation, that most of Europe is just as racist, if not more so, as the US.
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i think you have to compare the most racist groups in a country to the most racist groups in the comapro country, and also compare the average racism levels and also the mean and median racism levels. like USA could be top-heavy with the KKK and just Mississippi in general, but your average American is pretty deathly afraid of being labeled a racist and most people bend over backwards to avoid even something that is not racist but could be construed racist by anyone. however i bet in italy your average giovanni has no problem spouting out some pretty racist things if he was so inclined because it is certainly less taboo over there
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i think you have to compare the most racist groups in a country to the most racist groups in the comapro country, and also compare the average racism levels and also the mean and median racism levels. like USA could be top-heavy with the KKK and just Mississippi in general, but your average American is pretty deathly afraid of being labeled a racist and most people bend over backwards to avoid even something that is not racist but could be construed racist by anyone. however i bet in italy your average giovanni has no problem spouting out some pretty racist things if he was so inclined because it is certainly less taboo over there
I think a society should largely be judged upon how ostracized and marginalized racists are in their society.
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i think you have to compare the most racist groups in a country to the most racist groups in the comapro country, and also compare the average racism levels and also the mean and median racism levels. like USA could be top-heavy with the KKK and just Mississippi in general, but your average American is pretty deathly afraid of being labeled a racist and most people bend over backwards to avoid even something that is not racist but could be construed racist by anyone. however i bet in italy your average giovanni has no problem spouting out some pretty racist things if he was so inclined because it is certainly less taboo over there
I think a society should largely be judged upon how ostracized and marginalized racists are in their society.
well consider that the KKK lives in off-the-grid shacks in the woods, whereas italy racists have front row tix to see AC Milan
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i think you have to compare the most racist groups in a country to the most racist groups in the comapro country, and also compare the average racism levels and also the mean and median racism levels. like USA could be top-heavy with the KKK and just Mississippi in general, but your average American is pretty deathly afraid of being labeled a racist and most people bend over backwards to avoid even something that is not racist but could be construed racist by anyone. however i bet in italy your average giovanni has no problem spouting out some pretty racist things if he was so inclined because it is certainly less taboo over there
I think a society should largely be judged upon how ostracized and marginalized racists are in their society.
well consider that the KKK lives in off-the-grid shacks in the woods, whereas italy racists have front row tix to see AC Milan
Yeah, I'd say ours is better.
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My observation is that its more a young/old divide, over there. Old people have no problem being blatantly racist but it is appalling to the younger crowd.. to an extent you could say the same about American's though... I remember my grandpa spouting off the N word (in reference to the pictures of indigenous Australians on the wall) at Outback Steakhouse when I was a kid that I was pretty :sdeek: about.
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i think you have to compare the most racist groups in a country to the most racist groups in the comapro country, and also compare the average racism levels and also the mean and median racism levels. like USA could be top-heavy with the KKK and just Mississippi in general, but your average American is pretty deathly afraid of being labeled a racist and most people bend over backwards to avoid even something that is not racist but could be construed racist by anyone. however i bet in italy your average giovanni has no problem spouting out some pretty racist things if he was so inclined because it is certainly less taboo over there
this just goes back to the public shaming that KK was talking about. i bet there are more "racist" people on this blog than you think, but the public shaming bit holds them from sharing their view (the gE police are especially sensitive in this area). the bending over backwards to not say something doesn't mean that they don't WANT to say it. this skews the average pretty heavily.
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i think you have to compare the most racist groups in a country to the most racist groups in the comapro country, and also compare the average racism levels and also the mean and median racism levels. like USA could be top-heavy with the KKK and just Mississippi in general, but your average American is pretty deathly afraid of being labeled a racist and most people bend over backwards to avoid even something that is not racist but could be construed racist by anyone. however i bet in italy your average giovanni has no problem spouting out some pretty racist things if he was so inclined because it is certainly less taboo over there
this just goes back to the public shaming that KK was talking about. i bet there are more "racist" people on this blog than you think, but the public shaming bit holds them from sharing their view (the gE police are especially sensitive in this area). the bending over backwards to not say something doesn't mean that they don't WANT to say it. this skews the average pretty heavily.
yeah ok but doesn't this all factor into a country's racist rating? if there are "police" everywhere PI'ing people for anything >borderline racist comments, doesn't that help the country's racist rating? i say yes. public shaming is as legit as any other reason
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i think you have to compare the most racist groups in a country to the most racist groups in the comapro country, and also compare the average racism levels and also the mean and median racism levels. like USA could be top-heavy with the KKK and just Mississippi in general, but your average American is pretty deathly afraid of being labeled a racist and most people bend over backwards to avoid even something that is not racist but could be construed racist by anyone. however i bet in italy your average giovanni has no problem spouting out some pretty racist things if he was so inclined because it is certainly less taboo over there
this just goes back to the public shaming that KK was talking about. i bet there are more "racist" people on this blog than you think, but the public shaming bit holds them from sharing their view (the gE police are especially sensitive in this area). the bending over backwards to not say something doesn't mean that they don't WANT to say it. this skews the average pretty heavily.
yeah ok but doesn't this all factor into a country's racist rating? if there are "police" everywhere PI'ing people for anything >borderline racist comments, doesn't that help the country's racist rating? i say yes. public shaming is as legit as any other reason
it just hides it from view, kind of the way in the article no one in power would speak about what the inter (inter? soccer is so rough ridin' weird) fans did.
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You've seemed a bit squishy on exactly what you are willing to label as racist which brings us full circle again.
Yeah, I mean, it seems like I failed to communicate the idea that I'm open to considering that there may just be some relativism here. So, like, maybe tolerance of racial slurs is not acceptable in the U.S. and acceptable in Italy not only because of social norms, but because there just is no universal fact of the matter regarding the wrongness of racial slurs.
I can agree that they cause real harm, yet disagree that they're wrong. Real harm is sometimes caused by regular, old actions with unintended consequences, for example. So, they're not wrong in virtue of causing real harm. If they are, it must be for a different reason.
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it seems like I failed to communicate the idea that I'm open to considering that there may just be some relativism here.
i thought the exchange between you and katkid was really interesting (before everyone else diluted the thread with their comments).
i think there are a couple of interesting issues here:
1) i think katkid is focused on the prevalence, and impact on minority populations, of instances of overt public racism, or at least actions that may be related to, or difficult to distinguish from, racism, while chum1 (and earlier, myself) were more interested in the cultural mindset of the majority population. it shouldn't necessarily be surprising that those different focuses (foci?) would lead to different thoughts on how racist a society is.
2) i think one of question of how a society defines identity enters into the equation. my impression has been that in the united states people, at least for american blacks and american whites, define themselves (and are defined by others by) by race primarily, or perhaps only just very slightly less than by nationality. in contrast, my impression has been that europeans (really we are talking southern europeans, and we should acknowledge that large parts of europe are very different) define themselves/are defined by ethnicity, nationality or membership in some smaller than national geographically defined group. to katkid, that difference may seem irrelevant so far as treatment of an immigrant group or some other ethnic minority correlated to an american definition of race is clearly discriminatory or in some way disadvantages the minority group. i (and i suspect chum), would consider the difference more relevant.
(sorry about all the ()s and comma delineated subordinate clauses. it's how i think.)
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it seems like I failed to communicate the idea that I'm open to considering that there may just be some relativism here.
2) i think one of question of how a society defines identity enters into the equation. my impression has been that in the united states people, at least for american blacks and american whites, define themselves (and are defined by others by) by race primarily, or perhaps only just very slightly less than by nationality. in contrast, my impression has been that europeans (really we are talking southern europeans, and we should acknowledge that large parts of europe are very different) define themselves/are defined by ethnicity, nationality or membership in some smaller than national geographically defined group. to katkid, that difference may seem irrelevant so far as treatment of an immigrant group or some other ethnic minority correlated to an american definition of race is clearly discriminatory or in some way disadvantages the minority group. i (and i suspect chum), would consider the difference more relevant.
I agree with your characterization of my argument.
I will only add that we seem to be very focused about how there is something "lost in translation" by examining the behavior of these Italians through our own (white/black, ______-American, ethnic enclaves) prism of "racism" and "race." That is true insofar as we all acknowledge the difference between the nation-state construct in play in nearly all of Europe and the "one nation" of our republic. But I think something is also being obscured about the United States here on two levels.
1) if we conceptualize the United States and talk about things like the "relative prevalence" or some "smaller than national geographically defined group" we are talking about regionalism. It is no doubt a very powerful force in Europe. It is also wrong to be too dismissive of it as a powerful force in the United States. It is very comforting to get apologetic about the romantic Spaniard from Zaragoza or the Milano from Italy and how they are just expressing their historical place and mourning their cultural loss as they are besieged by accusations of racism from ethnocentric Kansans.
I doubt the American Southerner, clutching his Confederate flag, spouting clearly racist language might get similar consideration.
The parallel of Europe adjusting to the bitter end of the nation-state and the Southern and Border states fear of a black and brown planet is much more apt in my mind than the convoluted reasoning that will explain away a Nazi salute or ape sounds as anything other than the most obvious name.
2) Even if we concede that the stated justification for the racism is pure in-group/out-group hate and not necessarily the bit about racial superiority. It is a strain of nationalist ideology that must ultimately arrive return to racism as the in-group is slowly purged of the "Romans In Name Only."
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I doubt the American Southerner, clutching his Confederate flag, spouting clearly racist language might get similar consideration.
i mean, i don't like the loud, offensive nationalist/racists/whatever of europe, either. i'm talking about the society as a whole. and i do give the us, including southerners, the same consideration.
i don't have the same antipathy towards racism as a concept as you seem to, though. i think actions that hurt other people are wrong, regardless of motivation. and motivation without action bothers me very little.
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"Romans In Name Only."
listen from start to six minute mark. describe these romans as racist or not racist.
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/fooc/fooc_20131026-1200a.mp3
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"Romans In Name Only."
listen from start to six minute mark. describe these romans as racist or not racist.
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/fooc/fooc_20131026-1200a.mp3
In the intro, when they were talking about the stories and said ".. the Angela Merkel bugging rout..." since it was in a british accent, i immediately thought they were talking about a story in which the German Chancellor was getting railed on.... buggering...
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I'm still picking Australia, eff the haters, etc.
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"Romans In Name Only."
listen from start to six minute mark. describe these romans as racist or not racist.
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/fooc/fooc_20131026-1200a.mp3
It was 'Gone with the Wind' in Italian. I absolutely think people should mourn cultural loss. But the distance dumps Vaseline on our lens into the Old world. Quaint storybook cobbled roads and alleys of the Old World speak to Americans, and those in multi-cultural London, bombarded by the crass strip mall and highway or the unpleasant change of the corner pub to a Jamaican restaurant or disco.
We are absolutely losing culture, but it is not being replaced by nihilism. I think Americans in general are much more pragmatic and adaptable to this reality because our institutions and our culture is so young. The Old World is dying hard.
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Good lord, how did I leave Malaysia off my list?
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I'm still picking Australia, eff the haters, etc.
great choice, HARRIET VANGER :Wha:
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It was 'Gone with the Wind' in Italian. I absolutely think people should mourn cultural loss. But the distance dumps Vaseline on our lens into the Old world. Quaint storybook cobbled roads and alleys of the Old World speak to Americans, and those in multi-cultural London, bombarded by the crass strip mall and highway or the unpleasant change of the corner pub to a Jamaican restaurant or disco.
We are absolutely losing culture, but it is not being replaced by nihilism. I think Americans in general are much more pragmatic and adaptable to this reality because our institutions and our culture is so young. The Old World is dying hard.
good answer. although i think we're adapting easier because our culture is hardly worth saving.
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I'm still picking Australia, eff the haters, etc.
great choice, HARRIET VANGER :Wha:
SPOILER ALERT GD MOCAT
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i just read the book and i started it 2 days ago and i finished it yesterday. i've never read 590 pages in 2 days before :sdeek:
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I don't get overly concerned about segregation outside of the U.S. because I don't expect everyone else to share the same values that we do. Something like stoning women is another matter. But if, for example, people like their dictator and aren't being mistreated, let them have their dictator.
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so seven doesn't like black people?
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I don't get overly concerned about segregation outside of the U.S. because I don't expect everyone else to share the same values that we do. Something like stoning women is another matter. But if, for example, people like their dictator and aren't being mistreated, let them have their dictator.
Your second example is carrying a ton of weight for the first. Segregation is harmful to the out group(s). It is pretty well established.
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I don't get overly concerned about segregation outside of the U.S. because I don't expect everyone else to share the same values that we do. Something like stoning women is another matter. But if, for example, people like their dictator and aren't being mistreated, let them have their dictator.
Your second example is carrying a ton of weight for the first. Segregation is harmful to the out group(s). It is pretty well established.
As long as there isn't a basic human rights violation, as in the other example I gave, I'm olay with it.
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i just read the book and i started it 2 days ago and i finished it yesterday. i've never read 590 pages in 2 days before :sdeek:
It's a really good book. I didn't read it that fast, though.
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so seven doesn't like black people?
:surprised:
no more or less than any other racial group of people.
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Eff yeah OP. Australia
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Good lord, how did I leave Malaysia off my list?
Salt water crocs.
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Good lord, how did I leave Malaysia off my list?
Salt water crocs.
Good save :thumbs:
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25637069
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25637069
So not France then?
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or yes to France? can't tell whose side you're on here
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or yes to France? can't tell whose side you're on here
sounds like france is being a total nazi about these anti-semites
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quite the kosher pickle we find ourselves in here
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After spending a month in there this past fall, New Zealand gets my vote.
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After spending a month in there this past fall, New Zealand gets my vote.
Middle Earth
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After spending a month in there this past fall, New Zealand gets my vote.
That's a good one. Wonder if it will be the same in 20 or 30 years?
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After spending a month in there this past fall, New Zealand gets my vote.
That's a good one. Wonder if it will be the same in 20 or 30 years?
why wouldn't it be?
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25637069
So not France then?
or yes to France? can't tell whose side you're on here
yes to france.
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After spending a month in there this past fall, New Zealand gets my vote.
That's a good one. Wonder if it will be the same in 20 or 30 years?
why wouldn't it be?
I don't know, crap changes ya know? I mean imagine going back to MHK 30 years ago and someone asking the same question. Willing to bet MHK is a whole lot different now than people would have guessed back then.
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Good lord, how did I leave Malaysia off my list?
uhhh, yeah, about that...I changed my mind.
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Good lord, how did I leave Malaysia off my list?
uhhh, yeah, about that...I changed my mind.
:lol: