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General Discussion => The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit => Topic started by: CNS on July 18, 2013, 04:01:53 PM
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http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/18/news/economy/detroit-bankruptcy/index.html
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Should prob bail them out.
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http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2009/1118/new-tale-of-detroits-woe-silverdome-sold-for-583000
They had two offers for $12 and $18 million previously, and went to auction instead. :lol:
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http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2009/1118/new-tale-of-detroits-woe-silverdome-sold-for-583000
They had two offers for $12 and $18 million previously, and went to auction instead. :lol:
The house flipper who bought that is going to make a fortune.
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I like how the unions are all super concerned about how their extravagant benefits, which helped bankrupt the city, may now be in jeopardy because the city is... bankrupt. Don't worry boys, someway, somehow, the taxpayers will bail you out in the end.
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I like how the unions are all super concerned about how their extravagant benefits, which helped bankrupt the city, may now be in jeopardy because the city is... bankrupt. Don't worry boys, someway, somehow, the taxpayers will bail you out in the end.
I would be super concerned about losing the benefits if I were retirement age and I had been spending the past 30-40 years working a low wage job with the understanding that a pension was part of the deal. :dunno:
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I like how the unions are all super concerned about how their extravagant benefits, which helped bankrupt the city, may now be in jeopardy because the city is... bankrupt. Don't worry boys, someway, somehow, the taxpayers will bail you out in the end.
I would be super concerned about losing the benefits if I were retirement age and I had been spending the past 30-40 years working a low wage job with the understanding that a pension was part of the deal. :dunno:
Agreed. Apples and Oranges between lower wage civil servants expecting a reasonable retirement after years of service and retired union workers from say the auto industry.
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I like how the unions are all super concerned about how their extravagant benefits, which helped bankrupt the city, may now be in jeopardy because the city is... bankrupt. Don't worry boys, someway, somehow, the taxpayers will bail you out in the end.
I would be super concerned about losing the benefits if I were retirement age and I had been spending the past 30-40 years working a low wage job with the understanding that a pension was part of the deal. :dunno:
I wonder if they had opportunities to renegotiate and save the city. Union bosses don't usually even consider such requests.
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you guys all seem to have shitloads of experience dealing with unions. meanwhile, I have none. I will just lurk here.
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Is this a bad time to bring up the 50 years of Democratic Political Domination of the City of Detroit?
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Mitt Romney is such an bad person. "Let Detroit go bankrupt?" Easy for you to say, Mr. Grey Poupon.
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you guys all seem to have shitloads of experience dealing with unions. meanwhile, I have none. I will just lurk here.
Tom the Bug should have something about this soon, so you'll be able to join in the convo. I know that rich creepy ass dog will be crushing the poor union dudes.
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Those American workers should have been happy with the wages and benefits paid to the Chinese. They're getting what they deserve for putting their greasy hands in those laudable capitalists pockets.
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I like how the unions are all super concerned about how their extravagant benefits, which helped bankrupt the city, may now be in jeopardy because the city is... bankrupt. Don't worry boys, someway, somehow, the taxpayers will bail you out in the end.
I would be super concerned about losing the benefits if I were retirement age and I had been spending the past 30-40 years working a low wage job with the understanding that a pension was part of the deal. :dunno:
Do city employees make less than similarly educated private employees? I know they work a hell of a lot less hours.
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I like how the unions are all super concerned about how their extravagant benefits, which helped bankrupt the city, may now be in jeopardy because the city is... bankrupt. Don't worry boys, someway, somehow, the taxpayers will bail you out in the end.
I would be super concerned about losing the benefits if I were retirement age and I had been spending the past 30-40 years working a low wage job with the understanding that a pension was part of the deal. :dunno:
Do city employees make less than similarly educated private employees? I know they work a hell of a lot less hours.
in my little experience (4 years city, 2 private), the gap seems larger for skilled positions and less so for relatively unskilled. i enjoyed my experience and felt it positive but just couldn't justify the pay.
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I like how the unions are all super concerned about how their extravagant benefits, which helped bankrupt the city, may now be in jeopardy because the city is... bankrupt. Don't worry boys, someway, somehow, the taxpayers will bail you out in the end.
I would be super concerned about losing the benefits if I were retirement age and I had been spending the past 30-40 years working a low wage job with the understanding that a pension was part of the deal. :dunno:
That's the Union's fault for promising money that wouldn't be there in the future. Unions lure workers in with all these promises and many of them end up being unsustainable.
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Those American workers should have been happy with the wages and benefits paid to the Chinese. They're getting what they deserve for putting their greasy hands in those laudable capitalists pockets.
I assume you're talking about private industry, which is unrelated to Detroit's bankruptcy. But yeah, union greed contributed to the auto industry woes too. And we bailed them out.
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Those American workers should have been happy with the wages and benefits paid to the Chinese. They're getting what they deserve for putting their greasy hands in those laudable capitalists pockets.
I assume you're talking about private industry, which is unrelated to Detroit's bankruptcy. But yeah, union greed contributed to the auto industry woes too. And we bailed them out.
Private industry didn't take advantage of the trade policies they lobbied for?
If auto workers get their jobs shipped to Mexico, then the city loses the sales tax revenue from their consumption spending.
You're smart bro, so tap into your macroeconomic side and think about it a little more.
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Photo Essay: Detroit's Beautiful, Horrible Decline (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1882089,00.html)
Here's an idea, have Detroit shrink its boundaries by about 2/3rds and turn the rest into a movie lot for post-apocalyptic and disaster films.
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I like how the unions are all super concerned about how their extravagant benefits, which helped bankrupt the city, may now be in jeopardy because the city is... bankrupt. Don't worry boys, someway, somehow, the taxpayers will bail you out in the end.
I would be super concerned about losing the benefits if I were retirement age and I had been spending the past 30-40 years working a low wage job with the understanding that a pension was part of the deal. :dunno:
Do city employees make less than similarly educated private employees? I know they work a hell of a lot less hours.
Usually they have a lower base salary, but the benefits make their compensation competitive and often better than the private sector. I'm not really sure why that matters, though. Do you turn down a job because the pay is better than the average in your field?
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Before I get started here: In every collective bargaining arrangement ever, there are two sides that come to an agreement. Why are management's shitty negotiating skills never blamed? How could you possibly blame stud union negotiators for getting themselves a good deal?
As far as the pensions go: It is completely outrageous that pensioners with their pensions guaranteed by the state constitution are having their livelihoods threatened by an unelected administrator so that the city can pay off their bondholders. Hopefully that gets resolved.
As far as the city goes, KSU has it about right. The city is way too big physically. They need to empower neighborhoods to become independent wards with their own budgeting under a city umbrella or unincorporate most of the city and just let them figure it out.
As for the political leadership: GTFO. The administration of Kwame Kilpatrick and co. was unbelievably corrupt and disastrous for Detroit. To claim that dude was some sort of liberal technocrat or ideologue is wrong. He was a corrupt fool that bilked the city for millions. Read the wikipedia article. It is insane. He is less likable, more corrupt and more ruthless than the Baltimore mayor depicted in the Wire, except it all actually happened.
I get disgusted by the gleeful finger wagging and high minded lectures from people watching a great American city get dismantled brick from brick. The people of Detroit were not the architects of their own destruction. There is plenty of blame to go around, but I have no time for the kind of bad person that puts it on a rough ridin' assembly line worker.
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I like how the unions are all super concerned about how their extravagant benefits, which helped bankrupt the city, may now be in jeopardy because the city is... bankrupt. Don't worry boys, someway, somehow, the taxpayers will bail you out in the end.
I would be super concerned about losing the benefits if I were retirement age and I had been spending the past 30-40 years working a low wage job with the understanding that a pension was part of the deal. :dunno:
Do city employees make less than similarly educated private employees? I know they work a hell of a lot less hours.
Usually they have a lower base salary, but the benefits make their compensation competitive and often better than the private sector. I'm not really sure why that matters, though. Do you turn down a job because the pay is better than the average in your field?
Not necessarily, but by the same token, nobody forced them to join the ranks of the groaning bureaucracy, and one might have thought twice before taking a job paid for with tax dollars where a good chunk of the compensation is in the form of future payments from a ponzi-scheme pension fund. (I think this is the high-minded finger wagging to which KK refers. :nono:)
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Before I get started here: In every collective bargaining arrangement ever, there are two sides that come to an agreement. Why are management's shitty negotiating skills never blamed? How could you possibly blame stud union negotiators for getting themselves a good deal?
That's not true with regard to the state. And that's a huge part of the problem with public-sector unions. Those government officials are elected by the same people they are supposedly negotiating with.
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I like how the unions are all super concerned about how their extravagant benefits, which helped bankrupt the city, may now be in jeopardy because the city is... bankrupt. Don't worry boys, someway, somehow, the taxpayers will bail you out in the end.
I would be super concerned about losing the benefits if I were retirement age and I had been spending the past 30-40 years working a low wage job with the understanding that a pension was part of the deal. :dunno:
Do city employees make less than similarly educated private employees? I know they work a hell of a lot less hours.
Usually they have a lower base salary, but the benefits make their compensation competitive and often better than the private sector. I'm not really sure why that matters, though. Do you turn down a job because the pay is better than the average in your field?
Not necessarily, but by the same token, nobody forced them to join the ranks of the groaning bureaucracy, and one might have thought twice before taking a job paid for with tax dollars where a good chunk of the compensation is in the form of future payments from a ponzi-scheme pension fund. (I think this is the high-minded finger wagging to which KK refers. :nono:)
Right. Also, no one forces any of the legislatures to actually fund what they promise. You know who always funds what is legally required of them? The workers. Because it is withheld from their paychecks. So I'd just like to see an America where contracts were held up by both sides.
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I like how the unions are all super concerned about how their extravagant benefits, which helped bankrupt the city, may now be in jeopardy because the city is... bankrupt. Don't worry boys, someway, somehow, the taxpayers will bail you out in the end.
I would be super concerned about losing the benefits if I were retirement age and I had been spending the past 30-40 years working a low wage job with the understanding that a pension was part of the deal. :dunno:
Do city employees make less than similarly educated private employees? I know they work a hell of a lot less hours.
Usually they have a lower base salary, but the benefits make their compensation competitive and often better than the private sector. I'm not really sure why that matters, though. Do you turn down a job because the pay is better than the average in your field?
Not necessarily, but by the same token, nobody forced them to join the ranks of the groaning bureaucracy, and one might have thought twice before taking a job paid for with tax dollars where a good chunk of the compensation is in the form of future payments from a ponzi-scheme pension fund. (I think this is the high-minded finger wagging to which KK refers. :nono:)
Right. Also, no one forces any of the legislatures to actually fund what they promise. You know who always funds what is legally required of them? The workers. Because it is withheld from their paychecks. So I'd just like to see an America where contracts were held up by both sides.
It really is amazing how much Americans criticize the labor side in disputes like this and how little they demand of the capital/management side
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Before I get started here: In every collective bargaining arrangement ever, there are two sides that come to an agreement. Why are management's shitty negotiating skills never blamed? How could you possibly blame stud union negotiators for getting themselves a good deal?
That's not true with regard to the state. And that's a huge part of the problem with public-sector unions. Those government officials are elected by the same people they are supposedly negotiating with.
How is that not true? There are all kinds of budgeting/hiring/firing authorities for different departments all over the place, but ultimately the government is accountable to the people. Which you are apparently aware of.
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:lol:
Hey KatKit, what's managements leverage in these so-called negotiations? Close the business, or in this case the City? You're rough ridin' clueless.
If I'm a tax payer in Detroit who has likely seen his job prospects evaporate along with the value of his real property, all under the City's watch, I'm telling City employees to jump in the bath with me. And then I'd drown them for being so selfish.
Detroit is a microcosm of the lefts ideological economic state. Its a huge rough ridin' loser, just like they are.
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Also, gtfoo with these "upholding a contract" arguments. They filed for BK you idiots.
Also, KSU is right the people they elected promised them this stuff paid for with opm (other peoples money). eff them and the social welfare state they created, which predictably imploaded. Remember, "this is our govt."
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:lol:
Hey KatKit, what's managements leverage in these so-called negotiations? Close the business, or in this case the City? You're rough ridin' clueless.
If I'm a tax payer in Detroit who has likely seen his job prospects evaporate along with the value of his real property, all under the City's watch, I'm telling City employees to jump in the bath with me. And then I'd drown them for being so selfish.
Detroit is a microcosm of the lefts ideological economic state. Its a huge rough ridin' loser, just like they are.
Well, not sure if you've heard, but cities close schools or offices or sell off government property all the time. So while they cannot completely escape the responsibility of providing certain public services there is a pretty big sliding scale in terms of services provided. For instance: the quality of police/fire services, the quality of public schools, the quality of roads, the quality of parks and rec depts. etc.
Well, there are a bunch of examples of how the state can exercise leverage. The state could just refuse to enforce the contract (as they are doing in this case and many others), the state could make it illegal for state workers to strike, lay off workers or enforce pay cuts in the form of furloughs. But those are all corrective measures. The entire point I was making was that better budgeting and hiring decisions should've been made on the front end.
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Also, gtfoo with these "upholding a contract" arguments. They filed for BK you idiots.
Also, KSU is right the people they elected promised them this stuff paid for with opm (other peoples money). eff them and the social welfare state they created, which predictably imploaded. Remember, "this is our govt."
You mean like a CEO's salary getting paid by shareholders? What kind of asinine concept of ownership do you have? Take a lap dumbass.
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A simple, "thanks for pointing out the fatal fallacy in my argument" would have sufficed, katkid.
Also the BOD sets CEO compensation, Dumbass.
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A simple, "thanks for pointing out the fatal fallacy in my argument" would have sufficed, katkid.
Also the BOD sets CEO compensation, Dumbass.
With OSM (other shareholder's money)!!!11 ZOMG!11
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How can the BOD even negotiate salaries when they are just elected by the shareholders and promise the CEO a ponzi scheme salary with OPM? Such B.S.
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Paid a kid to paint my address on the curb. Thought it was a great example of entrepreneurship....Little did I know, he was just lazily getting rich off OPM.
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Dammit, there are too many acronyms flying around here. Knock it off. :shakesfist:
And as for the government being accountable to the public for the deals it makes with public sector unions, that's a bit of a stretch. See, that only works if there are grownups in charge of the government (e.g., Scott Walker). Public sector unions spend a lot of money to make sure that doesn't happen, and they can spend their members' dues on electioneering because the people they vote into office are only too glad to spend our money on funding a good chunk of the benefits! And the cycle continues...
Not saying the cycle can't be broken (e.g., Scott Walker), it's just really, really hard. It obviously hasn't happened in Detroit, with disastrous consequences, and the same crap is happening in California. Moreover, as the situation gets worse and worse, more conservatives jump ship, which leaves a bigger and bigger majority of liberals, who continue to vote liberals into power, who continue to spend irresponsibly... again, it's a vicious cycle. Ultimately, the liberal majority devours itself, but they also destroy anything they govern in the process.
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Hold the phone!!!!
http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/19/news/economy/detroit-bankruptcy-order/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 (http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/19/news/economy/detroit-bankruptcy-order/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)
Court says, nope!
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Hold the phone!!!!
http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/19/news/economy/detroit-bankruptcy-order/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 (http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/19/news/economy/detroit-bankruptcy-order/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)
Court says, nope!
a fella can't even go bankrupt without it being unconstitutional.
OBAMA! :shakesfist:
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Love it. Lifelong democrat circuit judge says filing bankruptcy (a matter of federal jurisdiction) is unconstitutional. "Der, ok judge! We'll just pretend we're not broke!" :lol:
My favorite part was the judge's recommendation that her order be sent to President Obama because he said he wouldn't let this happen. :lol:
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Yeah, that judge is a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). Which appears to be KatKids new m.o. ITT.
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Yeah, that judge is a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). Which appears to be KatKids new m.o. ITT.
You down with OPM?
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detroit may have rapacious public employees and may have incompetent and/or corrupt city mgmt. i have no idea.
however, even if they had highly skilled labor willing to work for peanuts and efficient and scrupulous mgmt, they'd have an almost impossible problem. their tax base has collapsed (i'm guessing about a third of their peak? kk, do you know?) and they're charged with maintaining the infrastructure and services of a city twice it's current size.
it's kind of fascinating. we have tons of examples of how a city can grow - both well and poorly. there are few examples of how to successfully contract. maybe no examples.
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I like how the unions are all super concerned about how their extravagant benefits, which helped bankrupt the city, may now be in jeopardy because the city is... bankrupt. Don't worry boys, someway, somehow, the taxpayers will bail you out in the end.
I would be super concerned about losing the benefits if I were retirement age and I had been spending the past 30-40 years working a low wage job with the understanding that a pension was part of the deal. :dunno:
Do city employees make less than similarly educated private employees? I know they work a hell of a lot less hours.
Usually they have a lower base salary, but the benefits make their compensation competitive and often better than the private sector. I'm not really sure why that matters, though. Do you turn down a job because the pay is better than the average in your field?
Not necessarily, but by the same token, nobody forced them to join the ranks of the groaning bureaucracy, and one might have thought twice before taking a job paid for with tax dollars where a good chunk of the compensation is in the form of future payments from a ponzi-scheme pension fund. (I think this is the high-minded finger wagging to which KK refers. :nono:)
Right. Also, no one forces any of the legislatures to actually fund what they promise. You know who always funds what is legally required of them? The workers. Because it is withheld from their paychecks. So I'd just like to see an America where contracts were held up by both sides.
It really is amazing how much Americans criticize the labor side in disputes like this and how little they demand of the capital/management side
It's because the Unions have management by the balls. A group of Thug Union Bosses walk into your facility and convince everyone they can get the workers higher wages and a pension till they die. Then they unionize and it's over. Management has to hold up their end for as long as they can but promising someone money till the day they die just doesn't work sometimes.
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I have personally dealt with UFCW Local 8. These guys are crooks. I mean this one guy makes $110,000/year to go around and talk to workers and drink coffee and sit in on grievance hearings twice a year. Check the LM2 filing with BLS. Unions don't actually produce anything, obviously, and therefore can't possibly help the economy. They just rob from businesses and their workers.
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detroit may have rapacious public employees and may have incompetent and/or corrupt city mgmt. i have no idea.
however, even if they had highly skilled labor willing to work for peanuts and efficient and scrupulous mgmt, they'd have an almost impossible problem. their tax base has collapsed (i'm guessing about a third of their peak? kk, do you know?) and they're charged with maintaining the infrastructure and services of a city twice it's current size.
it's kind of fascinating. we have tons of examples of how a city can grow - both well and poorly. there are few examples of how to successfully contract. maybe no examples.
good guess.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Detroit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Detroit)
The population decline drying up the tax base is obviously an enormous problem. The corrupt politicians and unresponsive public servants are just some of the reasons people left. I have a hard time imagining a city where you would have a highly skilled workforce, diligent and honest civil servants, yada yada that had the problems Detroit has.
The other issue is that Detroit is not very dense (and the population at this point within metro Detroit is VERY unevenly distributed) with very little public transit so it is very unweildly to use a central governing model to cover all of the ground. It needs to break up in to wards or just re-draw the city limits and let the abandoned areas re-constitute as their own townships or something.
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I have personally dealt with UFCW Local 8. These guys are crooks. I mean this one guy makes $110,000/year to go around and talk to workers and drink coffee and sit in on grievance hearings twice a year. Check the LM2 filing with BLS. Unions don't actually produce anything, obviously, and therefore can't possibly help the economy. They just rob from businesses and their workers.
Obviously.
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I mean this one guy makes $110,000/year to go around and talk to workers and drink coffee.
this describes at least 20 people at the job site where i've been working. except a lot of them make way more than 110k and instead of just talking and drinking coffee, they also spend a lot of time talking and smoking.
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btw, pike's outrage about his sixfigga union boss is v. funny.
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btw, pike's outrage about his sixfigga union boss is v. funny.
Sounds like class warfare jealousy about a H.S. grad pulling himself up by his boot straps, working hard and carving out a piece of America for himself.
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KK for mayor of detroit.
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GM CEO: Auto industry had role in Detroit fiscal slide
It's simply a matter of macro-economics. The (auto) industry generally wasn't doing well. Many jobs were lost as the result of the restructuring, including our own, and the tax base in large measure evaporated," he said in an interview at USA TODAY headquarters in McLean, Va., today.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/07/19/gm-ceo-akerson-bankruptcy-detroit-competition/2568787/
This is the biggest variable.
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LOL, yeah, the hardworking union shill.
When I think of boot strap America I think of people who have started their own companies, who don't want to be the Union Shill slugging around recruiting, attending the occasional workshop, pinching the secretary's ass and drawing $125K a year, while he shoots the crap with the union boss over scrambled eggs and hash browns and then takes a nap.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nypost.com%2Fr%2Fnypost%2F2013%2F05%2F28%2Fnews%2Fweb_photos%2FDSFDS051147--525x350.jpg&hash=4516502f1448d8aac7903e2a38402eec7222b1fe)
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I like how this thread took a "no rough ridin' crap" turn for the retards, "hey, I bet the tax base evaporated, that's why they went bankrupt".
Good grief mongoloids, no crap. That doesn't mean the bloated bureaucracy that was left behind should continue to draw on the once wealth that is no more. With the City, so dies the public sector. The unions ruined the private sector, and badadadumpdada, the public sector swirled down right behind it
The is so far from complicated its funny.
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#Butthurt about 6 figure salaries. . . . only when a union is involved.
Sad, really. #repub #hipocrisy #viral
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detroit may have rapacious public employees and may have incompetent and/or corrupt city mgmt. i have no idea.
however, even if they had highly skilled labor willing to work for peanuts and efficient and scrupulous mgmt, they'd have an almost impossible problem. their tax base has collapsed (i'm guessing about a third of their peak? kk, do you know?) and they're charged with maintaining the infrastructure and services of a city twice it's current size.
it's kind of fascinating. we have tons of examples of how a city can grow - both well and poorly. there are few examples of how to successfully contract. maybe no examples.
I think this is most accurate. The city shrunk, tax base disinigrated. Sys is right, there isn't a ton of guidance when a large city just goes away.
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#Butthurt about 6 figure salaries. . . . only when a union is involved.
Sad, really. #repub #hipocrisy #viral
Shut up. You couldn't look like a bigger Dumbass in this thread. Really, shut up.
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Low 6 figures isn't a great living in a city the size of Detroit.
But the unions did screw this up, just like the politicians did. And the auto industry for failing to adapt. Not a lot of clean hands. Detroit was a great American city and we all should be sad it's been wrecked.
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Low 6 figures isn't a great living in a city the size of Detroit.
But the unions did screw this up, just like the politicians did. And the auto industry for failing to adapt. Not a lot of clean hands. Detroit was a great American city and we all should be sad it's been wrecked.
Some people just don't love America as much as us.
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btw, pike's outrage about his sixfigga union boss is v. funny.
Yes, it's great.
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And Detroit's downfall is sad. Gotta love the, "well, what do you expect with liberals running the place?", though.
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I like how this thread took a "no rough ridin' crap" turn for the retards, "hey, I bet the tax base evaporated, that's why they went bankrupt".
Good grief mongoloids, no crap. That doesn't mean the bloated bureaucracy that was left behind should continue to draw on the once wealth that is no more. With the City, so dies the public sector. The unions ruined the private sector, and badadadumpdada, the public sector swirled down right behind it
The is so far from complicated its funny.
This is a thread that the gE libtards can't win#Butthurt about 6 figure salaries. . . . only when a union is involved.
Sad, really. #repub #hipocrisy #viral
yeah #Butthurt about 6 figure salaries. . . . only when a union is involved.
Sad, really. #repub #hipocrisy #viral
Yeah. Hundreds of thousands of dollars going towards union thugs that don't contribute crap to the economy. They pull up in their Mercedes once a week when contract negotiations are going, and then vanish for 2 years after that. Man, the union thug bosses care so much.
Am I the only person here with experience in dealing with Unions?
fwiw, I feel like Unions have every right to exist, but I just think it's mumped up how they take advantage of working class people.
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damn I just realized how pak'd i was on that last post. I refuse to edit it. Go Cats.
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I like how this thread took a "no rough ridin' crap" turn for the retards, "hey, I bet the tax base evaporated, that's why they went bankrupt".
Good grief mongoloids, no crap. That doesn't mean the bloated bureaucracy that was left behind should continue to draw on the once wealth that is no more. With the City, so dies the public sector. The unions ruined the private sector, and badadadumpdada, the public sector swirled down right behind it
The is so far from complicated its funny.
Gm and the others were profitable with unions and they still shipped their jobs overseas.
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I like how this thread took a "no rough ridin' crap" turn for the retards, "hey, I bet the tax base evaporated, that's why they went bankrupt".
Good grief mongoloids, no crap. That doesn't mean the bloated bureaucracy that was left behind should continue to draw on the once wealth that is no more. With the City, so dies the public sector. The unions ruined the private sector, and badadadumpdada, the public sector swirled down right behind it
The is so far from complicated its funny.
This is a thread that the gE libtards can't win#Butthurt about 6 figure salaries. . . . only when a union is involved.
Sad, really. #repub #hipocrisy #viral
yeah #Butthurt about 6 figure salaries. . . . only when a union is involved.
Sad, really. #repub #hipocrisy #viral
Yeah. Hundreds of thousands of dollars going towards union thugs that don't contribute crap to the economy. They pull up in their Mercedes once a week when contract negotiations are going, and then vanish for 2 years after that. Man, the union thug bosses care so much.
Am I the only person here with experience in dealing with Unions?
fwiw, I feel like Unions have every right to exist, but I just think it's mumped up how they take advantage of working class people.
Yeah there's no large companies that take advantage of working class people and those dollars that "Union thugs" get just sit in their bank and never get spent thus deflating the economy.
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damn I just realized how pak'd i was on that last post. I refuse to edit it. Go Cats.
And you shouldn't.
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Red Flags that the libtards are getting crushed:
Public sector private sector analogies
Allusions to "macro factors beyond everyone's control". (is this an MSNBC or NPR talking point I missed, I heard it once as a rationale for the failure of Obamas economic policies)
Blaming management or CEO compensation for the failure of a Union dominated enterprise resulting from an impossible cost structure
The false premise the 2/3 of Detroit vanished over night, rather than over a period of decades
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Nah, I think "libtards" as you would say just realize there is more to Americas demise than just " union thugs" and working people.
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Also the premise the Detroit is a car centric city where the entire population is comprised of "highly skilled"laborers who head off to the factories each morning is completely Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). Wichita has about twice the manf jobs heavily focused in a much more volatile industry. It just isn't run [entirely] by a bunch of leftist goons.
http://www.manufacturersnews.com/news/charts/Top50CitiesJobsDec2010.pdf
Detroit's problems are much much larger than the auto industry, and have been for a long time. Why the public sector unions think they shouldn't go down with the rest of the city is the primary reason a large majority of Americans hate unions. That and they see first hand how little work they do for the pay they earn.
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Nah, I think "libtards" as you would say just realize there is more to Americas demise than just " union thugs" and working people.
Add a red flag.
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LOL at the resident Too Cool for Schoolers who can't admit that if Detroit was a conservative stronghold than the MSM and Liberal Politicians would be having a field day with the situation.
I also appreciate the wide brush KK paints with in just assuming that I'm all for huge CEO payouts at poorly run companies.
Keep up the deflection resident Obamabots.
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Yeah there's no large companies that take advantage of working class people and those dollars that "Union thugs" get just sit in their bank and never get spent thus deflating the economy.
Stealing money from workers and their companies and then paying the Thug Bosses hundreds of thousands of dollars does not help any economy. To benefit the economy you must produce something, and unions don't do crap.
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Yeah there's no large companies that take advantage of working class people and those dollars that "Union thugs" get just sit in their bank and never get spent thus deflating the economy.
Stealing money from workers and their companies and then paying the Thug Bosses hundreds of thousands of dollars does not help any economy. To benefit the economy you must produce something, and unions don't do crap.
They boosted morale though which in turn boosted production!?!?!?!?!?!
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Nah, I think "libtards" as you would say just realize there is more to Americas demise than just " union thugs" and working people.
Yeah, I don't think anyone said unions are solely to blame for America's, or Detroit's, woes. I certainly don't think anyone blamed "working people."
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Yeah there's no large companies that take advantage of working class people and those dollars that "Union thugs" get just sit in their bank and never get spent thus deflating the economy.
Stealing money from workers and their companies and then paying the Thug Bosses hundreds of thousands of dollars does not help any economy. To benefit the economy you must produce something, and unions don't do crap.
What's your opinion on Penatagon thugs?
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Nah, I think "libtards" as you would say just realize there is more to Americas demise than just " union thugs" and working people.
Yeah, I don't think anyone said unions are solely to blame for America's, or Detroit's, woes. I certainly don't think anyone blamed "working people."
[/quote
I take it you just skim pks and Fsds posts.
This whole dancing on the grave of Detroit is pretty sad.
I figured some of you love America so much that you would think its a travesty and wish for the best instead of using platitudes about unions and Democrats.
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fiancul.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2007%2F11%2Focp-logo.jpg&hash=65c22809ad81516c12fe3b03c83ffd805e6fe488)
Sounds like it's time to privatize Ol' Detroit.
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New red flag: anyone who thinks the public sector should give up part of their pension is "un-'merican"
:lol:
Sorry guys, I was at the Pitcher, Oklahoma funeral and fresh out of grief. :lol: #ruraltownUSA
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Love it. Lifelong democrat circuit judge says filing bankruptcy (a matter of federal jurisdiction) is unconstitutional. "Der, ok judge! We'll just pretend we're not broke!" :lol:
My favorite part was the judge's recommendation that her order be sent to President Obama because he said he wouldn't let this happen. :lol:
And predictably, federal bankruptcy court tells the state court to GTFOOMF (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100674600). The bankruptcy will be litigated in... bankruptcy court, where it belongs.
In other news, the Detroit City Council (http://www.detroitmi.gov/CityCouncil/tabid/2509/Default.aspx) took decisive action today to reconcile the finances of the beleaguered city. It has voted unanimously to adopt a resolution (http://www.freep.com/article/20130723/NEWS01/307230095/) calling for federal investigation of possible civil rights violations by George Zimmerman.
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http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2013/07/dont-let-bankruptcy-fool-you-detroits-not-dead/6261/
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Love it. Lifelong democrat circuit judge says filing bankruptcy (a matter of federal jurisdiction) is unconstitutional. "Der, ok judge! We'll just pretend we're not broke!" :lol:
My favorite part was the judge's recommendation that her order be sent to President Obama because he said he wouldn't let this happen. :lol:
And predictably, federal bankruptcy court tells the state court to GTFOOMF (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100674600). The bankruptcy will be litigated in... bankruptcy court, where it belongs.
In other news, the Detroit City Council (http://www.detroitmi.gov/CityCouncil/tabid/2509/Default.aspx) took decisive action today to reconcile the finances of the beleaguered city. It has voted unanimously to adopt a resolution (http://www.freep.com/article/20130723/NEWS01/307230095/) calling for federal investigation of possible civil rights violations by George Zimmerman.
I guess I don't get the glee. Sure the politicians there have not helped the city's cause and they were duly elected. We can argue about the role the unions have played in all this, but it sure seems like a lot more people other than 6 figure union boss thugs and black Democratic machine pols are getting screwed over. Just seems weird to party about.
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Love it. Lifelong democrat circuit judge says filing bankruptcy (a matter of federal jurisdiction) is unconstitutional. "Der, ok judge! We'll just pretend we're not broke!" :lol:
My favorite part was the judge's recommendation that her order be sent to President Obama because he said he wouldn't let this happen. :lol:
And predictably, federal bankruptcy court tells the state court to GTFOOMF (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100674600). The bankruptcy will be litigated in... bankruptcy court, where it belongs.
In other news, the Detroit City Council (http://www.detroitmi.gov/CityCouncil/tabid/2509/Default.aspx) took decisive action today to reconcile the finances of the beleaguered city. It has voted unanimously to adopt a resolution (http://www.freep.com/article/20130723/NEWS01/307230095/) calling for federal investigation of possible civil rights violations by George Zimmerman.
I guess I don't get the glee. Sure the politicians there have not helped the city's cause and they were duly elected. We can argue about the role the unions have played in all this, but it sure seems like a lot more people other than 6 figure union boss thugs and black Democratic machine pols are getting screwed over. Just seems weird to party about.
I'll admit it, part of me enjoys watching the "chickens come home to roost." As you say, these clowns weren't thrust upon the poor people of Detroit - they were duly elected, just like their predecessors. Mostly, though, it's just the sheer lunacy of it all.
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I love it when rich idiots lose all their money. It's almost more American than being poor and becoming wealthy.
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Love it. Lifelong democrat circuit judge says filing bankruptcy (a matter of federal jurisdiction) is unconstitutional. "Der, ok judge! We'll just pretend we're not broke!" :lol:
My favorite part was the judge's recommendation that her order be sent to President Obama because he said he wouldn't let this happen. :lol:
And predictably, federal bankruptcy court tells the state court to GTFOOMF (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100674600). The bankruptcy will be litigated in... bankruptcy court, where it belongs.
In other news, the Detroit City Council (http://www.detroitmi.gov/CityCouncil/tabid/2509/Default.aspx) took decisive action today to reconcile the finances of the beleaguered city. It has voted unanimously to adopt a resolution (http://www.freep.com/article/20130723/NEWS01/307230095/) calling for federal investigation of possible civil rights violations by George Zimmerman.
I guess I don't get the glee. Sure the politicians there have not helped the city's cause and they were duly elected. We can argue about the role the unions have played in all this, but it sure seems like a lot more people other than 6 figure union boss thugs and black Democratic machine pols are getting screwed over. Just seems weird to party about.
I'll admit it, part of me enjoys watching the "chickens come home to roost." As you say, these clowns weren't thrust upon the poor people of Detroit - they were duly elected, just like their predecessors. Mostly, though, it's just the sheer lunacy of it all.
Do you know all the crap Kwame Kilpatrick pulled? Like how much do you want your mind blown today?
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I love it when rich idiots lose all their money. It's almost more American than being poor and becoming wealthy.
I'm not sure there are many if any of those in this situation.
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I love it when rich idiots lose all their money. It's almost more American than being poor and becoming wealthy.
I'm not sure there are many if any of those in this situation.
Well sure, rich is a stretch. I'm not sure how their pensions compare to say a cop in California. But if it's anything similar then they did damn well.
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I love it when rich idiots lose all their money. It's almost more American than being poor and becoming wealthy.
I'm not sure there are many if any of those in this situation.
whatever, lib
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rsablogs.org.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F07%2FEconomic_map_of_metropolitan_Detroit1.jpg&hash=5ae3fd55f076e4209b8041d7612cd55f4cd3ffed)
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I love it when rich idiots lose all their money. It's almost more American than being poor and becoming wealthy.
I'm not sure there are many if any of those in this situation.
Well sure, rich is a stretch. I'm not sure how their pensions compare to say a cop in California. But if it's anything similar then they did damn well.
Ok. How much should they be paid?
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Less! :shakesfist:
(Really though, I don't care. Certainly not enough to be informed about it. Poor Detroit don't care boo hoo. Hopefully it's a cautionary tale but I doubt it.)
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Less! :shakesfist:
(Really though, I don't care. Certainly not enough to be informed about it. Poor Detroit don't care boo hoo. Hopefully it's a cautionary tale but I doubt it.)
Yeah I really don't ever understand the immense butthurt laid at the feet of cops, teachers, firefighters, county/city employees without specific evidence of corruption/bad behavior. The 400 richest individuals in the U.S. have more wealth than the bottom 50%. I find that fact much more distressing than the fact that some postal worker or teacher or even meter maid is going to have a retirement check, or some lazy screwed up mom is going to get $250/mo to feed her 3 kids.
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When in doubt, blame the government, poor people, blacks, and unions.
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Did you guys see on the ESPY's when Jon Hamm made that joke about the Tigers getting swept in the World Series? Calvin Johnson looked so mad lol.
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Did you guys see on the ESPY's when Jon Hamm made that joke about the Tigers getting swept in the World Series? Calvin Johnson looked so mad lol.
well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Less! :shakesfist:
(Really though, I don't care. Certainly not enough to be informed about it. Poor Detroit don't care boo hoo. Hopefully it's a cautionary tale but I doubt it.)
Yeah I really don't ever understand the immense butthurt laid at the feet of cops, teachers, firefighters, county/city employees without specific evidence of corruption/bad behavior. The 400 richest individuals in the U.S. have more wealth than the bottom 50%. I find that fact much more distressing than the fact that some postal worker or teacher or even meter maid is going to have a retirement check, or some lazy screwed up mom is going to get $250/mo to feed her 3 kids.
I don't get it, either. Cops for example get a bad rap, but I bet 9/10 are decent enough people. That's just how it goes though.
I don't have a problem with the distribution of wealth.
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I think you are probably shooting a little high with 9/10, Emo. Of course, this should be expected given incredibly high risk/reward ratio of actually becoming a cop.
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The point being I think all of them are assholes until proven wrong on an individual basis.
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I'm laughing at Detroit because Detroit deserves to be laughed at. :lol:
People should be held accountable for their actions, whether exercised individually, through a union, or as a city government. This has been a 40 year long slow motion ever impending train wreck. Public sector employees should not be permitted to vote themselves job security, benefits and wages and then have them fully protected when they suck the city dry of resources. Its nonsensical.
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I also don't think we can ignore the effect of white flight to the suburbs following the race riots of the 60s. Detroit is a bankrupt husk due to an almost perfect storm of liberalism in so many different ways.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwdtprs.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F07%2F13_07_19_detroit.jpg&hash=160ca0d47c2fb0846d0aa2f59edef843b96b92a9)
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Public sector employees should not be permitted to vote themselves job security, benefits and wages and then have them fully protected when they suck the city dry of resources.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. Are you talking about elections or no public sector unions?
The unions were some sort of panacea that destroyed everything in Detroit? There are a lot of reasons why our manufacturing base has dried up, unions may have sped up the acceleration of factories moving overseas but I don't understand the vitriol directed at them. How can you not understand the frustrations of workers that were promised a pension, paid in their share with each paycheck and then were later told that deal has been voided?
I'd also be fascinated to hear what the wages for each public sector employee should be. It seems that they are all making too much. What should they be paid?
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heard on npr today that the average pension benefit for a detroit city employee is 19k/year. hardly largesse, actually rather niggardly.
in general i'm pretty wary of public sector unions (not at all of private sector unions), but based on the above, it's hard to argue that union benefits were draining the city's coffers.
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unions may have sped up the acceleration of factories moving overseas but I don't understand the vitriol directed at them.
Wait... isn't that enough? Well, if you need more reasons than that, then in addition to ultimately rough ridin' over the very people they were supposed to be helping by making them less competitive, they are also horribly corrupt. Just for example (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/22/us-usa-autos-union-property-idUSTRE78L29Y20110922).
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unions are now completely unnecessary for the physical protection of workers (their initial purpose) and simply used as a political slush fund to elect pro-union legislators (liberals).
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unions are now completely unnecessary for the physical protection of workers (their initial purpose) and simply used as a political slush fund to elect pro-union legislators (liberals).
Your abbreviated history left out the 40 hr work week and improved working conditions part in the middle.
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unions are now completely unnecessary for the physical protection of workers (their initial purpose) and simply used as a political slush fund to elect pro-union legislators (liberals).
Your abbreviated history left out the 40 hr work week and improved working conditions part in the middle.
And now it's a zero hour work week for many. Such progress!
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Cops for example get a bad rap, but I bet 9/10 are decent enough people. That's just how it goes though.
Nah, 90% are pieces of crap on power trips. FTP
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Cops for example get a bad rap, but I bet 9/10 are decent enough people. That's just how it goes though.
Nah, 90% are pieces of crap on power trips. FTP
good catch, ell. what a dumb thing for emo to have said.
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unions are now completely unnecessary for the physical protection of workers (their initial purpose) and simply used as a political slush fund to elect pro-union legislators (liberals).
Your abbreviated history left out the 40 hr work week and improved working conditions part in the middle.
There is a government agency for both of those issues.
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unions are now completely unnecessary for the physical protection of workers (their initial purpose) and simply used as a political slush fund to elect pro-union legislators (liberals).
Your abbreviated history left out the 40 hr work week and improved working conditions part in the middle.
There is a government agency for both of those issues.
so what you're saying is unions are kind of like the 2nd amendment. Unnecessary to repel foreign invaders - we have government agencies for that.
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unions are now completely unnecessary for the physical protection of workers (their initial purpose) and simply used as a political slush fund to elect pro-union legislators (liberals).
Your abbreviated history left out the 40 hr work week and improved working conditions part in the middle.
There is a government agency for both of those issues.
so what you're saying is unions are kind of like the 2nd amendment. Unnecessary to repel foreign invaders - we have government agencies for that.
I don't understand your riddle. There is nothing in the 2nd amendment regarding foreign invaders.
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OK
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OK
I guess you assume "being necessary to the security of a free state" refers to foreign invaders rather than protection of the people against government tyranny. Tomato-tomato
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unions are now completely unnecessary for the physical protection of workers (their initial purpose) and simply used as a political slush fund to elect pro-union legislators (liberals).
Your abbreviated history left out the 40 hr work week and improved working conditions part in the middle.
There is a government agency for both of those issues.
so what you're saying is unions are kind of like the 2nd amendment. Unnecessary to repel foreign invaders - we have government agencies for that.
Oh my. Pffffffft
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It wasn't my best work
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Public union employees shouldn't have been dumb enough to believe they would get pensions and pay raises until the end of time. That crap sucks for them but it's unsustainable and is now a thing of the past.
But the union boss Thugs feed them these lies for their own power/money/greed.
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there's nothing unsustainable about a 19k/year pension.
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unions are now completely unnecessary for the physical protection of workers (their initial purpose) and simply used as a political slush fund to elect pro-union legislators (liberals).
Your abbreviated history left out the 40 hr work week and improved working conditions part in the middle.
There is a government agency for both of those issues.
which Republicans have effectively neutered until Obama skirted the rules (supposedly).
Too many facts, sorry.
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there's nothing unsustainable about a 19k/year pension.
Average probably includes the guy hired 3 days before they filed BK.
The bonds they floated just to fund the pension a couple years back were rediculous. Bondholders only deserve 20 cents on the dollar on that crap.
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This thread made me want to watch Robocop
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They cut police and fire by 40%, only lit 3 of 5 street lamps, let the parks go to crap raised property taxes 50% and paid themselves full benefits. Completely perverse definition of civil service.
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there's nothing unsustainable about a 19k/year pension.
right
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They cut police and fire by 40%, only lit 3 of 5 street lamps, let the parks go to crap raised property taxes 50% and paid themselves full benefits. Completely perverse definition of civil service.
I don't think most of the people who are losing their pensions did any of that.
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The bonds they floated just to fund the pension a couple years back were ridiculous. Bondholders only deserve 20 cents on the dollar on that crap.
agree.
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there's nothing unsustainable about a 19k/year pension.
right
i mean, sure 19k is far more than any worker class or middle class peon needs or merits. but they're just fiat dollars. by the time those rubes try and collect, they'll be lucky to be able to buy a loaf of bread with their pension.
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there's nothing unsustainable about a 19k/year pension.
Average probably includes the guy hired 3 days before they filed BK.
The bonds they floated just to fund the pension a couple years back were rediculous. Bondholders only deserve 20 cents on the dollar on that crap.
Well the latest plan has pension cuts coming and bondholders getting paid first.
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They cut police and fire by 40%, only lit 3 of 5 street lamps, let the parks go to crap raised property taxes 50% and paid themselves full benefits. Completely perverse definition of civil service.
Are you insinuating that the size of the workforces stayed the same over that time? Because that seems self-evidently false. Who is "they?" If you are going to string up Detroit because Kwame Kilpatrick was a terribly corrupt crook of a mayor then are you condemning yourself when Obamacare takes effect?
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there's nothing unsustainable about a 19k/year pension.
right
Evidently, it is unsustainable. The city has approximately $3 billion in unfunded pension obligations. And this ignores completely "other post-employment benefits" for city employees - namely healthcare - which currently has a $6.4 billion shortfall. This is not necessarily unusual, by the way. Many others cities, large and small, have similar deficits.
Part of the problem may be that, "meager" as those annual pensions are, you're eligible for them starting at something like age 55. That usually doesn't happen in the real world. A lot of these people "retire" with full pension and then take a new job.
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there's nothing unsustainable about a 19k/year pension.
right
There might be if you become eligible for that pension at, say, age 55. People don't typically retire at age 55 in the real world.
Is this desk job real world or manual labor real world?
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there's nothing unsustainable about a 19k/year pension.
right
There might be if you become eligible for that pension at, say, age 55. People don't typically retire at age 55 in the real world.
They probably get more than 19k/year if they retire at 65. What a bunch of assholes. They should just find a job that makes them work until they die. It's not fair to the taxpayers.
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the latest plan has pension cuts coming and bondholders getting paid first.
should prolly be oldest first, in both pensions and bonds.
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Evidently, it is unsustainable. The city has approximately $3 billion in unfunded pension obligations. And this ignores completely "other post-employment benefits" for city employees - namely healthcare - which currently has a $6.4 billion shortfall. This is not necessarily unusual, by the way. Many others cities, large and small, have similar deficits.
it's unsustainable in a failing city. in the almost every other city in the country that'd be fine. in the cities that have significant unfunded liabilities in ca, the mean pensions are far, far higher than 19k. a number of ca cities may have spending problems, it looks like detroit has a revenue problem.
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When a quarter of a million people leave a city within five years, there are going to be consequences. But yeah, let's blame it all on the unions and poor people.
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Keep using the "they're blaming the poor people" meme Beems.
:thumbsup:
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Union Thug negotiated public pensions are Ponzi schemes.
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Union Thug negotiated public pensions are Ponzi schemes.
two meaningless tropes in one sentence is a pretty solid effort.
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Union Thug negotiated public pensions are Ponzi schemes.
two meaningless tropes in one sentence is a pretty solid effort.
Meaningless?! The proof is in California.
http://www.ai-cio.com/channel/NEWSMAKERS/Californian_Unfunded_Liabilities__Double_What_We_Thought.html (http://www.ai-cio.com/channel/NEWSMAKERS/Californian_Unfunded_Liabilities__Double_What_We_Thought.html)
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Union Thug negotiated public pensions are Ponzi schemes.
two meaningless tropes in one sentence is a pretty solid effort.
Meaningless?! The proof is in California.
http://www.ai-cio.com/channel/NEWSMAKERS/Californian_Unfunded_Liabilities__Double_What_We_Thought.html (http://www.ai-cio.com/channel/NEWSMAKERS/Californian_Unfunded_Liabilities__Double_What_We_Thought.html)
command-f
"union thugs" "Ponzi scheme"
nope, no hits.
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Meaningless?! The proof is in California.
http://www.ai-cio.com/channel/NEWSMAKERS/Californian_Unfunded_Liabilities__Double_What_We_Thought.html (http://www.ai-cio.com/channel/NEWSMAKERS/Californian_Unfunded_Liabilities__Double_What_We_Thought.html)
jfc. i mean, i think i've posted a number of times lolling at how stupid ca cities have been/still are, but the above article is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).
"omg, if you arbitrarily lower the discount rate, then suddenly these pensions look even more underfunded!"
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How do you arbitrarily lower an arbitrary discount rate?
This thread has derailed. Back to laughing at Detroit and the failed leftist economic model. Elect leaders, award yourself limitless entitlements, bankrupt business, bankrupt taxpayers, bankrupt the city, demand full benefits, claim nobody couldhave seen it coming and/or something "unfair" happened. Isn't this the theme of Atlas Shrugged???
The most pathetic thing here is the "sympathetic high ground" katkid is taking for da poh work in' manperson. These people exhausted the cities coffers at the expense of the health, safety and welfare of the citizens it was supposed to serve. What other purpose does a municipal government serve? Pathetic.
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How do you arbitrarily lower an arbitrary discount rate?
if it's an arbitrary rate, how do you lower or raise it non-arbitrarily?
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award yourself limitless entitlements
personally, i'd have awarded myself more than 19k/year, if i'd have broken free of all limits.
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there's nothing unsustainable about a 19k/year pension.
Average probably includes the guy hired 3 days before they filed BK.
The bonds they floated just to fund the pension a couple years back were rediculous. Bondholders only deserve 20 cents on the dollar on that crap.
Well the latest plan has pension cuts coming and bondholders getting paid first.
Pretty sure this is false, its a reorganization so all creditors would have to agree, but if were talking about the bond issue to pay the pension benefits the pension should have subordinated (and probably did).
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How do you arbitrarily lower an arbitrary discount rate?
if it's an arbitrary rate, how do you lower or raise it non-arbitrarily?
Just pointing out how disingenuous your point was.
Also I'm not taking the 19000 as fact, since it likely includes people less than 1 year on the job who'd be fully vested at around $100 a year in retirement benefits.
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Elect leaders, award yourself limitless entitlements, bankrupt business, bankrupt taxpayers, bankrupt the city, demand full benefits, claim nobody couldhave seen it coming and/or something "unfair" happened. Isn't this the theme of Atlas Shrugged???
this is exactly what happened. lol at Union Thug Bosses and the way they promised their "highly skilled" workers they would have pensions forever
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Elect leaders, award yourself limitless entitlements, bankrupt business, bankrupt taxpayers, bankrupt the city, demand full benefits, claim nobody couldhave seen it coming and/or something "unfair" happened. Isn't this the theme of Atlas Shrugged???
this is exactly what happened. lol at Union Thug Bosses and the way they promised their "highly skilled" workers they would have pensions forever
"lol"ing at the very small number of people that may have been corrupt or lazy or whatever that you believe screwed over tens of thousands of other people directly and over a million people indirectly is morally bankrupt. What is wrong with you?
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KatKid sympathizes for everyone at Enron not named ken lay.
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KatKid sympathizes for everyone at Enron not named ken lay.
No, but I absolutely feel bad for pensioners or retirees whose fund managers or brokers had them in Enron.
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KatKid sympathizes for everyone at Enron not named ken lay.
No, but I absolutely feel bad for pensioners or retirees whose fund managers or brokers had them in Enron.
Just not the thousands of people at Enron who had nothing to do with the fraud. Good to know your sympathies began and end with union trolls.
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KatKid sympathizes for everyone at Enron not named ken lay.
No, but I absolutely feel bad for pensioners or retirees whose fund managers or brokers had them in Enron.
Just not the thousands of people at Enron who had nothing to do with the fraud. Good to know your sympathies began and end with union trolls.
I didn't make a full list of all people I feel bad for, I just made the point that there were plenty of people impacted by the Enron collapse that had nothing to do with Enron. Just like there are plenty of entrepreneurs in Detroit that have never sniffed a pension and have never voted for a crook that have suffered.
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Meant to post this last week: http://mobile.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/07/24/detroit_immigration_more_people_can_save_a_city.html
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While the average pension is $30,000 for public safety and $19,000 for other municipal workers, these figures are skewed by workers who retire early with reduced benefits or on disability. A quarter of retired officers receive disability pensions, which pay two-thirds of salary. Fifty-four retirees are under the age of 20 and earn pensions that average $23,300, according to a 2011 actuarial report.
WTF
Also
The actuaries mention as a footnote that the retirement tables "may include records with defective birth dates." Detroit's pension funds, like most of its municipal agencies, keep sloppy records. About 70% of the city's financial journal entries are booked manually.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324783204578624161224137252.html
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manual book keeping CREATES JOBS
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While the average pension is $30,000 for public safety and $19,000 for other municipal workers, these figures are skewed by workers who retire early with reduced benefits or on disability. A quarter of retired officers receive disability pensions, which pay two-thirds of salary. Fifty-four retirees are under the age of 20 and earn pensions that average $23,300, according to a 2011 actuarial report.
WTF
Also
The actuaries mention as a footnote that the retirement tables "may include records with defective birth dates." Detroit's pension funds, like most of its municipal agencies, keep sloppy records. About 70% of the city's financial journal entries are booked manually.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324783204578624161224137252.html
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While the average pension is $30,000 for public safety and $19,000 for other municipal workers, these figures are skewed by workers who retire early with reduced benefits or on disability. A quarter of retired officers receive disability pensions, which pay two-thirds of salary. Fifty-four retirees are under the age of 20 and earn pensions that average $23,300, according to a 2011 actuarial report.
WTF
Also
The actuaries mention as a footnote that the retirement tables "may include records with defective birth dates." Detroit's pension funds, like most of its municipal agencies, keep sloppy records. About 70% of the city's financial journal entries are booked manually.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324783204578624161224137252.html
Isn't Dearborn where all the Muslims live? Hmmm.
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While the average pension is $30,000 for public safety and $19,000 for other municipal workers, these figures are skewed by workers who retire early with reduced benefits or on disability. A quarter of retired officers receive disability pensions, which pay two-thirds of salary. Fifty-four retirees are under the age of 20 and earn pensions that average $23,300, according to a 2011 actuarial report.
WTF
Also
The actuaries mention as a footnote that the retirement tables "may include records with defective birth dates." Detroit's pension funds, like most of its municipal agencies, keep sloppy records. About 70% of the city's financial journal entries are booked manually.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324783204578624161224137252.html
LOL
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-09/detroit-losing-1-million-check-bares-hobbling-processes.html
In late February, cash-strapped Detroit received a $1 million check from the local school system that wasn’t deposited. The routine payment wound up in a city hall desk drawer, where it was found a month later.
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the fact that they transfer a million dollars with a physical paper check is more crazy than that they put it in a drawer for a month.
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the fact that they transfer a million dollars with a physical paper check is more crazy than that they put it in a drawer for a month.
Fantastic point.
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the fact that they transfer a million dollars with a physical paper check is more crazy than that they put it in a drawer for a month.
Uh, no
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the fact that they transfer a million dollars with a physical paper check is more crazy than that they put it in a drawer for a month.
My first thought was "they actually write a paper check every month?".
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the fact that they transfer a million dollars with a physical paper check is more crazy than that they put it in a drawer for a month.
Uh, no
uh, shazbot! yes
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Not sure you guys understand how these check are "written". The fact that the procedures Detroit had in place to accept regular payments resulted in a guy to puttingt a million dollar check in a drawer and forgetting about it is unfathomable.
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Not sure you guys understand how these check are "written". The fact that the procedures Detroit had in place to accept regular payments resulted in a guy to puttingt a million dollar check in a drawer and forgetting about it is unfathomable.
It is absolutely one of the crazy things you can imagine. Then you think about the fact that there is a pretty good amount of circumstantial evidence that points to former mayor Kwame Kilpatrick hosting a party with strippers and cocaine at the mayor's mansion and then later ordering a hit on one of the strippers (with police carrying out the hit) in order to keep her quiet.
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Not sure you guys understand how these check are "written". The fact that the procedures Detroit had in place to accept regular payments resulted in a guy to puttingt a million dollar check in a drawer and forgetting about it is unfathomable.
It is absolutely one of the crazy things you can imagine. Then you think about the fact that there is a pretty good amount of circumstantial evidence that points to former mayor Kwame Kilpatrick hosting a party with strippers and cocaine at the mayor's mansion and then later ordering a hit on one of the strippers (with police carrying out the hit) in order to keep her quiet.
They need to make a movie about that guy. Would watch
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Not sure you guys understand how these check are "written". The fact that the procedures Detroit had in place to accept regular payments resulted in a guy to puttingt a million dollar check in a drawer and forgetting about it is unfathomable.
It is absolutely one of the crazy things you can imagine. Then you think about the fact that there is a pretty good amount of circumstantial evidence that points to former mayor Kwame Kilpatrick hosting a party with strippers and cocaine at the mayor's mansion and then later ordering a hit on one of the strippers (with police carrying out the hit) in order to keep her quiet.
They need to make a movie about that guy. Would watch
I don't know how a movie could possibly capture how insane his reign was. I can't even imagine what that movie would be like.
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Not sure you guys understand how these check are "written". The fact that the procedures Detroit had in place to accept regular payments resulted in a guy to puttingt a million dollar check in a drawer and forgetting about it is unfathomable.
It is absolutely one of the crazy things you can imagine. Then you think about the fact that there is a pretty good amount of circumstantial evidence that points to former mayor Kwame Kilpatrick hosting a party with strippers and cocaine at the mayor's mansion and then later ordering a hit on one of the strippers (with police carrying out the hit) in order to keep her quiet.
CJK5H
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Not sure you guys understand how these check are "written". The fact that the procedures Detroit had in place to accept regular payments resulted in a guy to puttingt a million dollar check in a drawer and forgetting about it is unfathomable.
It is absolutely one of the crazy things you can imagine. Then you think about the fact that there is a pretty good amount of circumstantial evidence that points to former mayor Kwame Kilpatrick hosting a party with strippers and cocaine at the mayor's mansion and then later ordering a hit on one of the strippers (with police carrying out the hit) in order to keep her quiet.
LEt the haters hate, Kwame
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Let me just say that Ann Arbor appears to be doing great. Much better than Detroit.
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Let me just say that Ann Arbor appears to be doing great. Much better than Detroit.
Except it's a dump