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General Discussion => The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit => Topic started by: ednksu on February 05, 2013, 12:22:04 PM
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http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/020413_DOJ_White_Paper.pdf
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weird thread title.
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weird thread title.
well its what its called. Its kinda the leading document for US foreign intervention, assassination, and use of executive power, something we should all care about.
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Welp, that's got to disappoint a true blooded Hope and Changer . . . the type that was marching for Peace and Love and imprisoning Bush 4 or 5 years ago. Sadly, most of them don't exist anymore, they only cared about political power.
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So we've basically eliminated a lot of the ridiculous bureaucracy that we used to have to go through to kill members of al Qaeda. We can either bring the fight to the terrorists, or we can wait for another 9/11 to occur.
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I seem to recall that during the previous administration the mantra amongst many on the left that the war on terror was a falsehood . . . a cover story to promote U.S. hegemony and the desires of PNAC.
Now . . . we must remove the constraints so as to give the President the ability to fight the terraists in the alleys and the back streets anywhere in the world and against anyone or anything the President deems as Terrorists/Terrorisms, even if they're U.S. citizens.
Just Say NO to overreaching executive powers . . . UNLESS a Democrat is President.
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I seem to recall that during the previous administration the mantra amongst many on the left that the war on terror was a falsehood . . . a cover story to promote U.S. hegemony and the desires of PNAC.
Now . . . we must remove the constraints so as to give the President the ability to fight the terraists in the alleys and the back streets anywhere in the world and against anyone or anything the President deems as Terrorists/Terrorisms, even if they're U.S. citizens.
Just Say NO to overreaching executive powers . . . UNLESS a Democrat is President.
You must have me confused for someone else. Yeah, I'm slightly left of center, but I'm a registered Independent, not some rank-and-file, leftist extremist. My issue with Bush was the war in Iraq. It was a total distraction from the real war on terror and the war in Afghanistan. I have no problem with drones unleashing havoc on al Qaeda and any other terrorist network that aims to kill innocent civilians.
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I don't have problems with anyone killing terrorists, pubs or dems.
:dunno:
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The issue is that what the administration calls "terrorists" or "Al Queda" is extremely subjective and frankly scary.
It's just another in the long and growing list of exeuctive branch power grabs.
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The issue is that what the administration calls "terrorists" or "Al Queda" is extremely subjective and frankly scary.
It's just another in the long and growing list of exeuctive branch power grabs.
Well I agree with you on both of those points, but if we can prevent future terrorist attacks and the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, I'm willing to give them that power.
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The issue is that what the administration calls "terrorists" or "Al Queda" is extremely subjective and frankly scary.
It's just another in the long and growing list of exeuctive branch power grabs.
Well I agree with you on both of those points, but if we can prevent future terrorist attacks and the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, I'm willing to give them that power.
what if we're just making things worse, though?
more bombs = more terrorists
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There is a difference between an actual terrorist and someone who just hates 'merica
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He's already killed citizens that he declared terrorists, why is this news?
this is awful by the way.
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I'm very pro Drone. Seems like a cheaper way to enforce our will on the globe.
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He's already killed citizens that he declared terrorists, why is this news?
this is awful by the way.
These are the "American citizens" you're referring to:
http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/a/anwar_al_awlaki/index.html (http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/a/anwar_al_awlaki/index.html)
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2011%2F09%2F30%2Ftimestopics%2FAnwar-al-Awlak%2FAnwar-al-Awlak-articleInline.jpg&hash=f17ac0f512d55a841c856a44cb73dd37bde34d79)
Anwar al-Awlaki was a radical American-born Muslim cleric who became a leading figure in Al Qaeda’s affiliate in Yemen. He was killed there on Sept. 30, 2011, by a missile fired from an American drone aircraft.
Mr. Awlaki had been perhaps the most prominent English-speaking advocate of violent jihad against the United States, with his message carried extensively over the Internet. His online lectures and sermons had been linked to more than a dozen terrorist investigations in the United States, Britain and Canada.
Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the Army psychiatrist accused of shooting 13 people at Fort Hood, Tex., in November 2009, had exchanged e-mails with Mr. Awlaki before the deadly rampage. Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab met with him before he failed to blow up an airplane with a bomb hidden in his underwear in December 2009. Faisal Shahzad, who tried to set off a car bomb in Times Square in May 2010, cited Mr. Awlaki as an inspiration.
The drone attack also killed Samir Khan, an American citizen born in Pakistan traveling with Mr. Awlaki. Mr. Khan edited Al Qaeda’s online jihadist magazine. A month later, Mr. Awlaki’s 16-year-old son, Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, who was born in Colorado, was part of a group of people killed by a drone strike in Yemen.
Mr. Awlaki, whom the United States had been hunting in Yemen for more than two years, had been identified as the target in advance and was killed with a Hellfire missile fired from a drone operated by the Central Intelligence Agency. The strike appeared to be the first time in the United States-led war on terrorism since the 9/11 attacks that an American citizen had been deliberately targeted and killed by American forces.
His influence has survived his death. A 21-year-old Bangladeshi man charged in October 2012 with trying to blow up the Federal Reserve Bank in Lower Manhattan in a sting operation by the Federal Bureau of Investigation told an undercover agent that he had formed his jihadist views listening to Mr. Awlaki’s sermons.
Decision to Target
In 2010, the Obama administration had taken the rare step of authorizing the targeted killing of Mr. Awlaki, even though he was an American citizen — a step that had provoked lawsuits and criticism from human rights groups. He had survived at least one earlier missile strike from an American military drone.
The administration’s secret legal memorandum that opened the door to the killing of Mr. Awlaki found that it would be lawful only if it were not feasible to take him alive. The drone attacks had been part of a clandestine Pentagon program to hunt members of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, the group believed responsible for a number of failed attempts to strike the United States.
The Legal Issues
The decision to target Mr. Awlaki was sharply criticized by human rights advocates, who said it put the government in the position of judge, jury and executioner for an American citizen entitled to Constitutional due process no matter where on the globe.
The legal reasoning behind the order came in a secret memo written by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel. The document provided the justification for acting despite an executive order banning assassinations, a federal law against murder, protections in the Bill of Rights and various strictures of the international laws of war, according to people familiar with the analysis. The memo, however, was narrowly drawn to the specifics of Mr. Awlaki’s case and did not establish a broad new legal doctrine to permit the targeted killing of any Americans believed to pose a terrorist threat.
The legal analysis, in essence, concluded that Mr. Awlaki could be legally killed, if it was not feasible to capture him, because intelligence agencies said he was taking part in the war between the United States and Al Qaeda and posed a significant threat to Americans, as well as because Yemeni authorities were unable or unwilling to stop him.
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I don't give a crap if they are Muslims you racist piece of crap. If they committed crimes, arrest then and put them on trial.
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I'm very pro Drone. Seems like a cheaper way to enforce our will on the globe.
Yeah, I can't understand how anyone could be anti-drone but ok with good old fashioned human on human killing.
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I don't give a crap if they are Muslims you racist piece of crap. If they committed crimes, arrest then and put them on trial.
What on Earth are you so angry about? They were unable to arrest him, which led to the drone strike.
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Is there anything I should be doing to avoid being assassinated by Obama?
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So we've basically eliminated a lot of the ridiculous bureaucracy that we used to have to go through to kill members of al Qaeda. We can either bring the fight to the terrorists, or we can wait for another 9/11 to occur.
I tend to agree with this type of thinking, but that could lead us into more wars like Iraq, which the left was incensed about.
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So we've basically eliminated a lot of the ridiculous bureaucracy that we used to have to go through to kill members of al Qaeda. We can either bring the fight to the terrorists, or we can wait for another 9/11 to occur.
I tend to agree with this type of thinking, but that could lead us into more wars like Iraq, which the left was incensed about.
Not wars, just drones. Could probably sell control of the drones to gamers and wipe out the national debt in a decade. For $1,000 you get to bomb this mud hut that totally has terrorist in it. For $10,000 you can take out a yellow cake facility in Iran and blame it on Israel etc.
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I don't give a crap if they are Muslims you racist piece of crap. If they committed crimes, arrest then and put them on trial.
What on Earth are you so angry about? They were unable to arrest him, which led to the drone strike.
If he's somewhere he can't be arrested by Americans, he can't be doing a very good job terrorizing Americans.
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So we've basically eliminated a lot of the ridiculous bureaucracy that we used to have to go through to kill members of al Qaeda. We can either bring the fight to the terrorists, or we can wait for another 9/11 to occur.
If by ridiculous bureaucracy you mean the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 14th amendments you would be correct.
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So we've basically eliminated a lot of the ridiculous bureaucracy that we used to have to go through to kill members of al Qaeda. We can either bring the fight to the terrorists, or we can wait for another 9/11 to occur.
If by ridiculous bureaucracy you mean the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 14th amendments you would be correct.
eff off peacenik
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So we've basically eliminated a lot of the ridiculous bureaucracy that we used to have to go through to kill members of al Qaeda. We can either bring the fight to the terrorists, or we can wait for another 9/11 to occur.
If by ridiculous bureaucracy you mean the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 14th amendments you would be correct.
eff off peacenik
well I'm not sure how I feel about whacking citizens. I don't think you should be able to eject from the legal process by hiding in Yemen while continuing your operations without repercussions. Maybe the US should have tried a bit harder to get him back.
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Democrats are gonna be Democrats
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You join an enemy army and declare war, you're a viable target. Asymmetrical warfare is still warfare and non-state actors are not non-actors.
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You join an enemy army and declare war, you're a viable target. Asymmetrical warfare is still warfare and non-state actors are not non-actors.
:blah:
what does this clown know.
But seriously, it's silly how much we worry about people declaring war against us. Yawn.
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You join an enemy army and declare war, you're a viable target. Asymmetrical warfare is still warfare and non-state actors are not non-actors.
Agreed. And the fact that this would be an overseas only provision where apprehension is impossible does help allay some concerns. But the definition of what a terrorist is still pretty damn vague with a lot of people, and given our government's tendency to fudge civilian drone casualty figures it's worth asking if they might not use a little too much latitude on deciding to kill an American citizen who may be planning an attack on US forces and/or civilians or may have just gotten mixed up with the wrong people. There should always be a healthy level of skepticism towards the inner workings of government bureaucracies and you'll have to forgive me if I don't trust the CIA to always get things right. It's not the end of the world if some figures get fudged with the Department of Transportation in order to meet some hypothetical goal, but it's a pretty big goddamn deal if we end up killing an American citizen when due process and/or a higher level of discretion could've been used to neutralize any potential threat.
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I don't give a crap if they are Muslims you racist piece of crap. If they committed crimes, arrest then and put them on trial.
What on Earth are you so angry about? They were unable to arrest him, which led to the drone strike.
Oh OK. Well nothing to see here. As long as the administration releases information condemning people on the court of public opinion after killing them (and their families) because there was no way to bring them in on charges that should be good enough for an American citizen living abroad.
Can't wait until police SWAT units start signing up for retired DOD drones with DEA grants and start tossing surgical strikes on math labs. Can't be risking the lives of good boys and blue on account of some druggies right? Hope the the CI didn't eff up the address!
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You join an enemy army and declare war, you're a viable target. Asymmetrical warfare is still warfare and non-state actors are not non-actors.
Police trying to bust down the door of a druggy have more procedural and substantive accountability and oversight than our President killing American Citizens. Just seems a little backwards. Call me crazy. No one is say Obama has to fly over and let the guy pound his ass before we try to slap some cuffs on him, but we need to stop creating emergency powers in the name of terrorism and start creating rules and procedures that would pass a reasonable interpretation of the Constitution.
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I did enjoy the joke about how the memo defines "al Qaeda number two" broadly enough to be an ethnic group.
I will say that internally, people bristle at the notion that their targeting work is haphazard or reckless or sloppy or that they are heartless. You can learn a lot about a person by tracking them for months or even years, and even when you know the things they've done or plan to do, it is no small thing to hear their wife and kids crying and confused when they get the news. It wrecks some people.
I am sympathetic to both sides and agree with the opinion that the technology of war has outpaced the ethics of war, even while being unsure whether there are or ever were concrete ethics or just moral facades for one side to rationalize and the other to exploit.
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I did enjoy the joke about how the memo defines "al Qaeda number two" broadly enough to be an ethnic group.
I will say that internally, people bristle at the notion that their targeting work is haphazard or reckless or sloppy or that they are heartless. You can learn a lot about a person by tracking them for months or even years, and even when you know the things they've done or plan to do, it is no small thing to hear their wife and kids crying and confused when they get the news. It wrecks some people.
I am sympathetic to both sides and agree with the opinion that the technology of war has outpaced the ethics of war, even while being unsure whether there are or ever were concrete ethics or just moral facades for one side to rationalize and the other to exploit.
Sorry, but maybe it should've set off some ethical triggers in people when we were torturing people. It should bug the hell out of people that we maintain kangaroo courts. It should bug people that we've constructed set of emergency procedures that have been in place for the entirety of the longest war in American history and show no sign of being removed. The technology has clearly outpaced the ethics of war, but it is clear the ethics gave way first and that the technological interventions flourished with the benefit of a less restrictive ethical code, not in spite of one. And I see no signs that any of these apparatuses of perpetual war, executive power and violations of the 1st and the 4th through 8th amendments will be dismantled for a very long time.
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Never thought I would see the good ol U S of A reduced to a rough ridin' laughing stock in my lifetime
Nice job Obama, hope u get rough ridin' aids and die you rough ridin' worthless piece of crap
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I did enjoy the joke about how the memo defines "al Qaeda number two" broadly enough to be an ethnic group.
I will say that internally, people bristle at the notion that their targeting work is haphazard or reckless or sloppy or that they are heartless. You can learn a lot about a person by tracking them for months or even years, and even when you know the things they've done or plan to do, it is no small thing to hear their wife and kids crying and confused when they get the news. It wrecks some people.
I am sympathetic to both sides and agree with the opinion that the technology of war has outpaced the ethics of war, even while being unsure whether there are or ever were concrete ethics or just moral facades for one side to rationalize and the other to exploit.
Sorry, but maybe it should've set off some ethical triggers in people when we were torturing people. It should bug the hell out of people that we maintain kangaroo courts. It should bug people that we've constructed set of emergency procedures that have been in place for the entirety of the longest war in American history and show no sign of being removed. The technology has clearly outpaced the ethics of war, but it is clear the ethics gave way first and that the technological interventions flourished with the benefit of a less restrictive ethical code, not in spite of one. And I see no signs that any of these apparatuses of perpetual war, executive power and violations of the 1st and the 4th through 8th amendments will be dismantled for a very long time.
Yeah. None of this is going away, except the torture. If it means anything, I've never tortured anyone, KK. I'm a soft power guy.
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Never thought I would see the good ol U S of A reduced to a rough ridin' laughing stock in my lifetime
Nice job Obama, hope u get rough ridin' aids and die you rough ridin' worthless piece of crap
lolwtfbbq :sdeek:
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rich people dont die of aids, dumbass
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rich people dont die of aids, dumbass
t's and p's then dickgobbler
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I did enjoy the joke about how the memo defines "al Qaeda number two" broadly enough to be an ethnic group.
I will say that internally, people bristle at the notion that their targeting work is haphazard or reckless or sloppy or that they are heartless. You can learn a lot about a person by tracking them for months or even years, and even when you know the things they've done or plan to do, it is no small thing to hear their wife and kids crying and confused when they get the news. It wrecks some people.
I am sympathetic to both sides and agree with the opinion that the technology of war has outpaced the ethics of war, even while being unsure whether there are or ever were concrete ethics or just moral facades for one side to rationalize and the other to exploit.
Sorry, but maybe it should've set off some ethical triggers in people when we were torturing people. It should bug the hell out of people that we maintain kangaroo courts. It should bug people that we've constructed set of emergency procedures that have been in place for the entirety of the longest war in American history and show no sign of being removed. The technology has clearly outpaced the ethics of war, but it is clear the ethics gave way first and that the technological interventions flourished with the benefit of a less restrictive ethical code, not in spite of one. And I see no signs that any of these apparatuses of perpetual war, executive power and violations of the 1st and the 4th through 8th amendments will be dismantled for a very long time.
Yeah. None of this is going away, except the torture. If it means anything, I've never tortured anyone, KK. I'm a soft power guy.
What about rendition; is that going away?
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So we've basically eliminated a lot of the ridiculous bureaucracy that we used to have to go through to kill members of al Qaeda. We can either bring the fight to the terrorists, or we can wait for another 9/11 to occur.
If by ridiculous bureaucracy you mean the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 14th amendments you would be correct.
eff off peacenik
well I'm not sure how I feel about whacking citizens. I don't think you should be able to eject from the legal process by hiding in Yemen while continuing your operations without repercussions. Maybe the US should have tried a bit harder to get him back.
eff. That. The United States already wastes enough money as it is on our defense spending. No reason to waste even more resources trying to arrest some anti-American terrorist scumbag who has been actively working for al Qaeda. If you go to Yemen, denounce the United States, and plot terrorist attacks with al Qaeda, you deserve to get bombed to pieces.
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#teamBeems, although it does set a dangerous precedent
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So we've basically eliminated a lot of the ridiculous bureaucracy that we used to have to go through to kill members of al Qaeda. We can either bring the fight to the terrorists, or we can wait for another 9/11 to occur.
If by ridiculous bureaucracy you mean the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 14th amendments you would be correct.
eff off peacenik
well I'm not sure how I feel about whacking citizens. I don't think you should be able to eject from the legal process by hiding in Yemen while continuing your operations without repercussions. Maybe the US should have tried a bit harder to get him back.
eff. That. The United States already wastes enough money as it is on our defense spending. No reason to waste even more resources trying to arrest some anti-American terrorist scumbag who has been actively working for al Qaeda. If you go to Yemen, denounce the United States, and plot terrorist attacks with al Qaeda, you deserve to get bombed to pieces.
Good to see you are now fiscal conservative and a hawk (war, not KU).
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So we've basically eliminated a lot of the ridiculous bureaucracy that we used to have to go through to kill members of al Qaeda. We can either bring the fight to the terrorists, or we can wait for another 9/11 to occur.
If by ridiculous bureaucracy you mean the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 14th amendments you would be correct.
eff off peacenik
well I'm not sure how I feel about whacking citizens. I don't think you should be able to eject from the legal process by hiding in Yemen while continuing your operations without repercussions. Maybe the US should have tried a bit harder to get him back.
eff. That. The United States already wastes enough money as it is on our defense spending. No reason to waste even more resources trying to arrest some anti-American terrorist scumbag who has been actively working for al Qaeda. If you go to Yemen, denounce the United States, and plot terrorist attacks with al Qaeda, you deserve to get bombed to pieces.
Good to see you are now fiscal conservative and a hawk (war, not KU).
The drone war actually keeps troops off of the ground and keeps us out of traditional war. I'm far from a hawk, although I do see strengths in fiscal conservatism.
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I did enjoy the joke about how the memo defines "al Qaeda number two" broadly enough to be an ethnic group.
I will say that internally, people bristle at the notion that their targeting work is haphazard or reckless or sloppy or that they are heartless. You can learn a lot about a person by tracking them for months or even years, and even when you know the things they've done or plan to do, it is no small thing to hear their wife and kids crying and confused when they get the news. It wrecks some people.
I am sympathetic to both sides and agree with the opinion that the technology of war has outpaced the ethics of war, even while being unsure whether there are or ever were concrete ethics or just moral facades for one side to rationalize and the other to exploit.
Sorry, but maybe it should've set off some ethical triggers in people when we were torturing people. It should bug the hell out of people that we maintain kangaroo courts. It should bug people that we've constructed set of emergency procedures that have been in place for the entirety of the longest war in American history and show no sign of being removed. The technology has clearly outpaced the ethics of war, but it is clear the ethics gave way first and that the technological interventions flourished with the benefit of a less restrictive ethical code, not in spite of one. And I see no signs that any of these apparatuses of perpetual war, executive power and violations of the 1st and the 4th through 8th amendments will be dismantled for a very long time.
Yeah. None of this is going away, except the torture. If it means anything, I've never tortured anyone, KK. I'm a soft power guy.
What about rendition; is that going away?
Honest guess? No. Not entirely. It will be re-branded (again) and have more legal hurdles to clear. But it won't go away, IMO.
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So we've basically eliminated a lot of the ridiculous bureaucracy that we used to have to go through to kill members of al Qaeda. We can either bring the fight to the terrorists, or we can wait for another 9/11 to occur.
16 year old kid. No judge. No Jury. No prison time. In every legal sense, a minor - Targeted & Killed.
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Is there anything I should be doing to avoid being assassinated by Obama?
don't leave the country.
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Is there anything I should be doing to avoid being assassinated by Obama?
don't leave the country.
Should avoid having brown skin too
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Bottom line: Regardless of if you Hate Bush or Obama - Looking back, Would you have given power to Bush knowing Obama would abuse it? Are you willing to give power to Obama, that the next "Bush" can abuse?
This started with the Patriot Act & Bush. The NDAA was written by McCain & endorsed by nearly every politician holding an office - Especially Obama.
This should sicken everyone.
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Is there anything I should be doing to avoid being assassinated by Obama?
don't leave the country.
Should avoid having brown skin too
and a funny last name.
"Anwahr Ala... Ala... Alawah... NOT 'MERICAN - WHO CARES!?!"
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Is there anything I should be doing to avoid being assassinated by Obama?
don't leave the country.
Should avoid having brown skin too
and a funny last name.
"Anwahr Ala... Ala... Alawah... NOT 'MERICAN - WHO CARES!?!"
Umm... the only reason anyone is bitching about this is because these guys were born in the United States. I could give a crap less if he's black, white, brown, yellow, or green. These guys were working for al Qaeda and had already been involved in multiple terrorist attacks. The 16 year-old kid would have probably ended up just like his piece of crap, anti-American, Koran thumping father. I mean if you want to go to Yemen and start working for al Qaeda, be my guest. That's not a right I'm willing to fight for.
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Is there anything I should be doing to avoid being assassinated by Obama?
don't leave the country.
Should avoid having brown skin too
and a funny last name.
"Anwahr Ala... Ala... Alawah... NOT 'MERICAN - WHO CARES!?!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enzJUemPYeU
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Is there anything I should be doing to avoid being assassinated by Obama?
don't leave the country.
Should avoid having brown skin too
and a funny last name.
"Anwahr Ala... Ala... Alawah... NOT 'MERICAN - WHO CARES!?!"
Umm... the only reason anyone is bitching about this is because these guys were born in the United States. I could give a crap less if he's black, white, brown, yellow, or green. These guys were working for al Qaeda and had already been involved in multiple terrorist attacks. The 16 year-old kid would have probably ended up just like his piece of crap, anti-American, Koran thumping father. I mean if you want to go to Yemen and start working for al Qaeda, be my guest. That's not a right I'm willing to fight for.
Ehh, bombing his entire family makes me a little bit uncomfortable. Family dynamics are a little different over there. His wife is likely still with him out of fear, rather than love and support. If we can fly two choppers into pakistan and raid a compound, that seems a little bit more humane than "eff it, bomb the brownies"
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Is there anything I should be doing to avoid being assassinated by Obama?
don't leave the country.
Should avoid having brown skin too
and a funny last name.
"Anwahr Ala... Ala... Alawah... NOT 'MERICAN - WHO CARES!?!"
Umm... the only reason anyone is bitching about this is because these guys were born in the United States. I could give a crap less if he's black, white, brown, yellow, or green. These guys were working for al Qaeda and had already been involved in multiple terrorist attacks. The 16 year-old kid would have probably ended up just like his piece of crap, anti-American, Koran thumping father. I mean if you want to go to Yemen and start working for al Qaeda, be my guest. That's not a right I'm willing to fight for.
Ehh, bombing his entire family makes me a little bit uncomfortable. Family dynamics are a little different over there. His wife is likely still with him out of fear, rather than love and support. If we can fly two choppers into pakistan and raid a compound, that seems a little bit more humane than "eff it, bomb the brownies"
I see your point, but these guys were driving away in a car when the drone hit them. The first option was to arrest al-awlaki, but it sounds like he was very good at avoiding contact with outside sources, so their options were limited. It would have been nice if the Yemen government had tried to help, but they didn't. Also keep in mind that we didn't take bin Laden alive, either.
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pretty wild that people discard pretty basic rights granted by the constitution because
1. doing otherwise would be too expensive and
2. the minor probably would've turned out a terrorist anyways.
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But death from above is just so damn exhilirating
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pretty wild that people discard pretty basic rights granted by the constitution because
1. doing otherwise would be too expensive and
2. the minor probably would've turned out a terrorist anyways.
This.
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Umm... the only reason anyone is bitching about this is because these guys were born in the United States. I could give a crap less if he's black, white, brown, yellow, or green. These guys were working for al Qaeda and had already been involved in multiple terrorist attacks. The 16 year-old kid would have probably ended up just like his piece of crap, anti-American, Koran thumping father. I mean if you want to go to Yemen and start working for al Qaeda, be my guest. That's not a right I'm willing to fight for.
The fact that you just said "The 16 year-old kid would have probably..." disturbs the crap out of me.
How long before protesting against large government results in someone "probably" becoming a terrorist.
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Stop the Executive Branch from being judge, jury and executioner . . . Unless a Democrat is President.
SANA, Yemen — Late last August, a 40-year-old cleric named Salem Ahmed bin Ali Jaber stood up to deliver a speech denouncing Al Qaeda in a village mosque in far eastern Yemen.
It was a brave gesture by a father of seven who commanded great respect in the community, and it did not go unnoticed. Two days later, three members of Al Qaeda came to the mosque in the tiny village of Khashamir after 9 p.m., saying they merely wanted to talk. Mr. Jaber agreed to meet them, bringing his cousin Waleed Abdullah, a police officer, for protection.
As the five men stood arguing by a cluster of palm trees, a volley of remotely operated American missiles shot down from the night sky and incinerated them all, along with a camel that was tied up nearby.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/06/world/middleeast/with-brennan-pick-a-light-on-drone-strikes-hazards.html?_r=0
Throw the lead and count the dead . . . but only if a Democrat is President.
But they have also claimed civilians like Mr. Jaber and have raised troubling questions that apply to Pakistan and Somalia as well: Could the targeted killing campaign be creating more militants in Yemen than it is killing? And is it in America’s long-term interest to be waging war against a self-renewing insurgency inside a country about which Washington has at best a hazy understanding?
Several former top military and intelligence officials — including Stanley A. McChrystal, the retired general who led the Joint Special Operations Command, which has responsibility for the military’s drone strikes, and Michael V. Hayden, the former C.I.A. director — have raised concerns that the drone wars in Pakistan and Yemen are increasingly targeting low-level militants who do not pose a direct threat to the United States.
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Is there anything I should be doing to avoid being assassinated by Obama?
don't leave the country.
Should avoid having brown skin too
and a funny last name.
"Anwahr Ala... Ala... Alawah... NOT 'MERICAN - WHO CARES!?!"
Umm... the only reason anyone is bitching about this is because these guys were born in the United States. I could give a crap less if he's black, white, brown, yellow, or green. These guys were working for al Qaeda and had already been involved in multiple terrorist attacks. The 16 year-old kid would have probably ended up just like his piece of crap, anti-American, Koran thumping father. I mean if you want to go to Yemen and start working for al Qaeda, be my guest. That's not a right I'm willing to fight for.
Ehh, bombing his entire family makes me a little bit uncomfortable. Family dynamics are a little different over there. His wife is likely still with him out of fear, rather than love and support. If we can fly two choppers into pakistan and raid a compound, that seems a little bit more humane than "eff it, bomb the brownies"
I see your point, but these guys were driving away in a car when the drone hit them. The first option was to arrest al-awlaki, but it sounds like he was very good at avoiding contact with outside sources, so their options were limited. It would have been nice if the Yemen government had tried to help, but they didn't. Also keep in mind that we didn't take bin Laden alive, either.
Well yeah, but we did it without murdering his children.
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Stop the Executive Branch from being judge, jury and executioner . . . Unless a Democrat is President.
Isn't that article questioning our policies?
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it really shouldn't have anything to do with an individual being an American or not. Hit list should not exist. Rules of engagement indicate that an individual cannot be engaged until until they are the aggressor. Conspiring to commit terrorism does not give authority for anyone to engage them.
Perhaps this is a bad analogy, but this is how I see it. If you witness an individual paying a hit man to kill someone, you do not- nor does any government agency - have authority to use lethal force to bring them to justice.
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There's a whole other flip side to ROE. I contend that a military officer should be able to intervene in a heinous act with lethal force if necessary. The decision making shouldn't go to a grand jury or something. Obviously that's not what we're talking about here directly, but consider the flip side.
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What makes a military officer different than you or I? Naturally we all have a right to use lethal force to stop someone from causing critical harm or death on another individual - but stopping and preventing are two very different things.
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What makes a military officer different than you or I? Naturally we all have a right to use lethal force to stop someone from causing critical harm or death on another individual - but stopping and preventing are two very different things.
Training and tools, mostly. I assume we're still talking about international scenarios. For example if some dude is driving a car bomb somewhere and some Apache pilot witnessed the loading of explosives or whatever, he shouldn't have to go up the chain to neutralize an imminent threat the innocents.
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Loading a car full of bombs is not what I'm talking about. Conspiring is not the same as taking action. I would consider a known terrorist loading a car up with bombs or planting ied's as beyond the planning stage.
The point I'm making is unless the 16 year old kid was walking into a crowded center with bombs strapped to him or running around firing an AK into a group of people - whether he's American or not holds no bearing on being assassinated. Conspiring warrants an arrest and a trial with potential for life in prison. It does not warrant a death sentence, with or without due process. I would say that goes for all humanity - not just citizens. I would say Osama bin laden deserved a trial even - unless he was pulling a gun on the seals, why not take him in? Allow his accusers the right to face him.
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I agree.
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Bottom line: Regardless of if you Hate Bush or Obama - Looking back, Would you have given power to Bush knowing Obama would abuse it? Are you willing to give power to Obama, that the next "Bush" can abuse?
This started with the Patriot Act & Bush. The NDAA was written by McCain & endorsed by nearly every politician holding an office - Especially Obama.
This should sicken everyone.
This is a great thread... glad to see some light being shed on this subject.
Just pointing something out for you, Hein... Joe Biden happily admits that he 'wrote' the Patriot Act. The Bush Admin. simply implemented it. This should only further arouse conspiracy theorists, and rightfully so.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/politics/rhetorical-question#
In the wake of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, Biden did, in fact, champion an anti-terrorism bill similar to the one now before Congress (though it was, as he complains, badly watered down by anti-government conservatives and leftist civil libertarians). And Biden doesn't let you forget it. "I introduced the terrorism bill in '94 that had a lot of these things in it," he bragged to NBC's Tim Russert on September 30. When I spent the day with him later that week, Biden mentioned the legislation to me, and to several other reporters he encountered, no fewer than seven times. "When I was chairman in '94 I introduced a major antiterrorism bill--back then," he says in the morning, flashing a knowing grin and pausing for effect. (Never mind that he's gotten the year wrong.) Back in his office later that afternoon, he brings it up yet again. "I drafted a terrorism bill after the Oklahoma City bombing. And the bill John Ashcroft sent up was my bill." You don't say.
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Dr. Obama, Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Drone
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdlheMuI.jpg&hash=31780600b5b165cb3b3ee028b182e08617015af0)
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Dr. Obama, Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Drone
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdlheMuI.jpg&hash=31780600b5b165cb3b3ee028b182e08617015af0)
No doubt we could place small thermonuclear devices on ze drones . . . firing ze weapons into enemy villages . . . of course not before we remove ze women with the most prodigious sexual and physical capabilities.
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Dr. Obama, Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Drone
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdlheMuI.jpg&hash=31780600b5b165cb3b3ee028b182e08617015af0)
No doubt we could place small thermonuclear devices on ze drones . . . firing ze weapons into enemy villages . . . of course not before we remove ze women with the most prodigious sexual and physical capabilities.
guys no one is taking the position here you want them to. Add to the discussion.
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Stop the Executive Branch from being judge, jury and executioner . . . Unless a Democrat is President.
SANA, Yemen — Late last August, a 40-year-old cleric named Salem Ahmed bin Ali Jaber stood up to deliver a speech denouncing Al Qaeda in a village mosque in far eastern Yemen.
It was a brave gesture by a father of seven who commanded great respect in the community, and it did not go unnoticed. Two days later, three members of Al Qaeda came to the mosque in the tiny village of Khashamir after 9 p.m., saying they merely wanted to talk. Mr. Jaber agreed to meet them, bringing his cousin Waleed Abdullah, a police officer, for protection.
As the five men stood arguing by a cluster of palm trees, a volley of remotely operated American missiles shot down from the night sky and incinerated them all, along with a camel that was tied up nearby.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/06/world/middleeast/with-brennan-pick-a-light-on-drone-strikes-hazards.html?_r=0
Throw the lead and count the dead . . . but only if a Democrat is President.
But they have also claimed civilians like Mr. Jaber and have raised troubling questions that apply to Pakistan and Somalia as well: Could the targeted killing campaign be creating more militants in Yemen than it is killing? And is it in America’s long-term interest to be waging war against a self-renewing insurgency inside a country about which Washington has at best a hazy understanding?
Several former top military and intelligence officials — including Stanley A. McChrystal, the retired general who led the Joint Special Operations Command, which has responsibility for the military’s drone strikes, and Michael V. Hayden, the former C.I.A. director — have raised concerns that the drone wars in Pakistan and Yemen are increasingly targeting low-level militants who do not pose a direct threat to the United States.
You're such a dork.
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Reality stings sometimes cRusty, no need to lash out.
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Rusty rarely lashes out anymore. I kinda miss mean michcat.
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Reality stings sometimes cRusty, no need to lash out.
The reality is that Obama is catching a hell of a lot of crap for this bullshit, even in the articles you link that I'm assuming you're using in evidence that people are excusing what Obama's doing...BECAUSE A DEMOCRAT IS PRESIDENT.
Rusty rarely lashes out anymore. I kinda miss mean michcat.
Not much to be angry about when you live in beautiful California. what're ya gonna do?
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Reality stings sometimes cRusty, no need to lash out.
The reality is that Obama is catching a hell of a lot of crap for this bullshit, even in the articles you link that I'm assuming you're using in evidence that people are excusing what Obama's doing...BECAUSE A DEMOCRAT IS PRESIDENT.
Rusty rarely lashes out anymore. I kinda miss mean michcat.
Not much to be angry about when you live in beautiful California. what're ya gonna do?
Those comments weren't directed at you cRusty, you and others clearly get it, some clearly do not.
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Reality stings sometimes cRusty, no need to lash out.
The reality is that Obama is catching a hell of a lot of crap for this bullshit, even in the articles you link that I'm assuming you're using in evidence that people are excusing what Obama's doing...BECAUSE A DEMOCRAT IS PRESIDENT.
Rusty rarely lashes out anymore. I kinda miss mean michcat.
Not much to be angry about when you live in beautiful California. what're ya gonna do?
Cairo needs food trucks.
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Reality stings sometimes cRusty, no need to lash out.
The reality is that Obama is catching a hell of a lot of crap for this bullshit, even in the articles you link that I'm assuming you're using in evidence that people are excusing what Obama's doing...BECAUSE A DEMOCRAT IS PRESIDENT.
Rusty rarely lashes out anymore. I kinda miss mean michcat.
Not much to be angry about when you live in beautiful California. what're ya gonna do?
Cairo needs food trucks.
Do you think I can get a permit for a texas bbq food truck in cairo? I feel like I could make a killing there.
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food trucks aren't very good values. The foods a little different, but you have to spend like 12 bucks to get full, and that's without a 3 dollar homemade lemonade. I only eat at them about once a month when they park directly outside my office. sigh.
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Hmmm. May start a "goEMAW fixes Cairo" discussion in my thread.
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food trucks aren't very good values. The foods a little different, but you have to spend like 12 bucks to get full, and that's without a 3 dollar homemade lemonade. I only eat at them about once a month when they park directly outside my office. sigh.
I agree that food trucks are not a good value. I have about 10 food trucks within 3 blocks of my office everyday. If I didn't bring my lunch and I didn't drive that day.... it's a convenient option.