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General Discussion => The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit => Topic started by: 3maw on June 05, 2012, 03:09:32 PM
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I feel this issue is overlooked. Sorry if this is buried in another thread somewhere, I just wanted to hear thoughts on it. Romney's view is to heavily encourage the private sector to increase admissions to private education.
Does anyone else see this as a threat to many things?
1. Definitely stratifies the classes even more.
2. Does not assuredly decrease federal spending on education - plan is to subsidize the cost.
3. Helps some excel farther than they would in public ed, but on the flip side, potentially holds down talent in lower SES areas.
4. State Universities, such as our elite home, could see a drop in admissions, as people flock to "better" privates schools, "better" out of state uni's.
5. Grounds for admissions to universities will have to be redrawn, as there won't be a uniform standard of achievement beyond the ACT/SAT, rather individual schools will have their own means of assessment which could vary greatly.
6. has the same penalties on schools and teachers as no child left behind, but with less of the few positives there were with NCLB.
And some other frustrations with Romney's plans.
I. New teachers will not have to take state certification exams, essentially anyone with a degree in anything can teach anything.
II. He believes class size doesn't matter, that if one teacher is teaching 15 kids, or if their teaching 40 kids, that both groups should achieve marks at the same level.
III. Has stated he will pull federal aid for universities.
Not saying I'm voting either way - there are certainly things from pres. Obama that i disagree with, i just wanted to see how other rational folk felt about education.
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I'm a firm believer that private schools only outperform public schools because they only have kids with parents who value education enough to pay for the private schooling. Sending your kid to a private school and expecting better results than what you would get at a public school just seems silly to me.
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most private schools have shittier teachers than public schools. primarily because they pay less.
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Yeah, teacher pay and class size are the two primary issues that need to be addressed.
Both would go a long way to take care of the rest.
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I say we throw more money at the failing public schools and everything will be better. It's what we've been doing for the last 40 years and kids are much better prepared for college than they were before the Dept of Education was formed. I don't think $600,000,000,000 per year is enough.
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Your a free market guy.
What happens when a job that used to pay $40k per year starts paying $80k per year?
Also, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand that one person conveying info to 15 people is more effective than one person conveying info to 30 people.
I am not saying throw money at the problem, because there are a lot of other items in a school's budget. However, if you want to solve the education quality problem, the above two things are the most effective variables to control.
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Curriculum's & programs like no child left behind are already causing a huge problem - Big government meddling with private education isn't going to help anyone out.
Class sizes are the biggest problem - kids perform better with 1 on 1 time and personalized curriculum. Something impossible to do with a class of over 15 kids. I'm a believer in the difference between a well performing student & a non performing student depends entirely on parent participation and students willingness to learn - which is why no child left behind is a gigantic pile of horse crap. Some kids just don't care. Kids will learn what they're motivated to learn and telling teachers "we're going to lose funding if your class doesn't hit X number of passing grades on this standardized test" isn't going to help motivate kids to learn.
But another big problem is teachers not having the freedom to teach in their own way - their constantly changing their methods to fit the new trendy way, because research has shown it helps inner city Chicago kids pass tests, etc. etc.
But I'm not the person that can really yank intellectually on the subject - as my wife is the one that's spent more time & energy on this subject through 4 years of elementary education, 4 years teaching experience and the past few working on her Reading Specialist masters. I'll see if Ms. Heinballz will log on here and give her opinion.
This issue is extremely important to me however. We're currently looking at some montessori schools and homeschooling until we figure out what to do. We both feel that public education is a lost cause and got sick of watching our kid go to school eager to learn only to come home frustrated that he spent all day doing worksheets in kindergarten on telling time & learning patterns like "dime, dime, nickel - dime, dime, nickel - dime, dime, _______" when he'd rather be learning chemistry, geology & rocket rocket propulsion. He was turning into a kid that just didn't give a crap about learning... In kindergarten. What has the public education system come to when a kindergarten kid comes home burnt out on learning and has a bag full of pointless homework that if he doesn't do, he'll be held in from recess.
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I would also like to say that, imo, if this is a throw-money-at-it problem, then so be it. It is that important. Much more so than any other issue including foreign affairs, defense, intelligence, healthcare, unemployment, or any other recent hot button issue. If we fail on the ed side, we will fail everywhere.
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Parents. It all starts with the parents. My mom is a teacher and she says it's harder to get parents to take a role in their kid's educations than it is to manage 25 kids. The stories I've heard are ridiculous. If the parents don't care, by the time the kids are getting ready for junior high they stop caring too.
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Schools need to be administered, accredited, and paid for at the county or state level with their own set of requirements.
I would also like to say that, imo, if this is a throw-money-at-it problem, then so be it. It is that important. Much more so than any other issue including foreign affairs, defense, intelligence, healthcare, unemployment, or any other recent hot button issue. If we fail on the ed side, we will fail everywhere.
Have you ever heard the phrase "throwing good money after bad"?
If it is so important, don't you think getting rid of bad teachers would be the first place to start? Or are unions more important?
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I full agree about bad teachers. That was my point about raising pay. An $80k yr job attracts a lot of very qualified workers who work hard to keep that job. A $30k starting salary attracts candidates who want to be finished for the day at 3:30pm and get summers off.
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The local level simply won't work unless you want to create 3rd world conditions in much of the heartland.
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I full agree about bad teachers. That was my point about raising pay. An $80k yr job attracts a lot of very qualified workers who work hard to keep that job. A $30k starting salary attracts candidates who want to be finished for the day at 3:30pm and get summers off.
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I don't really see a problem with teachers starting at $30K for a 24 year old. If they are driven and enjoy teaching, having a performance based salary should allow for pretty quick increase. An employer matched 401K could also be a good incentive.
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I full agree about bad teachers. That was my point about raising pay. An $80k yr job attracts a lot of very qualified workers who work hard to keep that job. A $30k starting salary attracts candidates who want to be finished for the day at 3:30pm and get summers off.
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I don't really see a problem with teachers starting at $30K for a 24 year old. If they are driven and enjoy teaching, having a performance based salary should allow for pretty quick increase. An employer matched 401K could also be a good incentive.
But eff all the kids in the classes of those teachers 1st & 2nd years of learning how to be a teacher - which is a fairly large amount of kids considering the flame out teachers who quit early in their careers. Quality educators can make more money in their first 5 years with less standards running a day care with only 5 kids. Fact.
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I full agree about bad teachers. That was my point about raising pay. An $80k yr job attracts a lot of very qualified workers who work hard to keep that job. A $30k starting salary attracts candidates who want to be finished for the day at 3:30pm and get summers off.
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I don't really see a problem with teachers starting at $30K for a 24 year old. If they are driven and enjoy teaching, having a performance based salary should allow for pretty quick increase. An employer matched 401K could also be a good incentive.
You want results but don't want to pay for them. You don't want mediocre and lazy, but you want pay to remain at a level that makes summers necessary for secondary jobs to support families. If I worked yr round in HS as an untrained laborer/ carpenter on residential jobs, I would have made more at 16 than a fully trained and certified teacher in charge of an entire classroom.
Its Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).
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i love that anytime education is brought up, the right's first cry is "bad, lazy teachers", as though it's an epidemic.
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i love that anytime education is brought up, the right's first cry is "bad, lazy teachers", as though it's an epidemic.
It is an epidemic. I can think of plenty of shitty teachers I've had over the years. It should be no surprise that there are horrible teachers everywhere when they have no accountability and cant get fired because they are protected by unions. Hell, the only way to fire a teacher is if he/she fucks one of their students.
People suck at their jobs in every industry, and to say that isnt the case in education is incredibly naive.
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"Romney's view is to heavily encourage the private sector to increase admissions to private education."
I'd love have encouragement to choose where to educate my kids and since we homeschool it'd be awesome to get money for that or to send our kids to a Montessori school. We pay the same taxes and it'd be nice to reap some of the benefits in the education we choose. There's a catch though. I learned, through experience, that when people give you money they start to think they have a say in where and how you spend it. Since we are trying to escape from endless testing and negative judgements on our kids based on if their views and behavior lead to an effecient classroom, the government getting involved makes me nervous.
In our current system, NCLB brings higher standards but does not provide more professional development opportunities for the teachers. That is like giving kids with shitty teachers more negative consequences for scoring low and expecting they will magically get smarter. It has brought up test scores and has probably been enough of stinger to help some teachers up their game, but I think the main reason is that they are figuring out the tests and teaching directly to them and cutting out anything not seen as important such as art, science and social studies. This type of fear based motivating can only do so much and spreads the fear and stress of the teachers to the kids. If we "throw more money" at this problem schools are just going to do more of the same.
I think a major paradigm shift is needed. Lay off the conformity and systematic teaching. Kids are individuals, just like adults!! They learn in different ways, at different TIMES! If we could see the whole person and honor what they care about and are good at, while encouraging them in other skills at their own pace, we might start to see kids that are confident critical thinkers and retain the information they learn. This might mean that kids (GASP) don't learn to read and do more difficult arithematic in Kindergarten or even first grade. They might actually gain an appreciation and understanding first and then learn the skills! Just because we figured out that we can cram certain skills down kids throats at earlier ages doesn't mean that's the best method.
I agree with seven that everyone loves to blame "bad, lazy teachers", but when you're only a part of a broken system there is only so much you can do. Of course, some teachers are amazing and can makes a difference despite the cards stacked against them, but imagine what they could do in an environment that is condusive to everyone learning.
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i love that anytime education is brought up, the right's first cry is "bad, lazy teachers", as though it's an epidemic.
It is an epidemic. I can think of plenty of shitty teachers I've had over the years. It should be no surprise that there are horrible teachers everywhere when they have no accountability and cant get fired because they are protected by unions. Hell, the only way to fire a teacher is if he/she fucks one of their students.
People suck at their jobs in every industry, and to say that isnt the case in education is incredibly naive.
I see you also watched "waiting for superman" - teachers are held accountable by parents and believe it or not kids. I've never seen anyone talk attrition rates when talking to this topic; and teachers quit for several reasons. Among these things are pay/pressure/or general dissatisfaction with the whole system. Are they a shitty teacher when their hands are tied to teaching to kids with methods they don't agree with? Educators are expected to be this mythological conveyer of knowledge using tactics of repetition/beating info into their brains and when they fail - its the teachers fault. Can there really be a bad teacher when the curriculum is founded around having a person "preach" info to the masses? Why not just a tape recorder? No - don't talk to me about shitty teachers until we put them in situations where they're doing more than being a speaker in a lecture based environment - followed by a standard worksheet.
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i love that anytime education is brought up, the right's first cry is "bad, lazy teachers", as though it's an epidemic.
It is an epidemic. I can think of plenty of shitty teachers I've had over the years. It should be no surprise that there are horrible teachers everywhere when they have no accountability and cant get fired because they are protected by unions. Hell, the only way to fire a teacher is if he/she fucks one of their students.
People suck at their jobs in every industry, and to say that isnt the case in education is incredibly naive.
I have a feeling you were just a shitty student.
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i love that anytime education is brought up, the right's first cry is "bad, lazy teachers", as though it's an epidemic.
It is an epidemic. I can think of plenty of shitty teachers I've had over the years. It should be no surprise that there are horrible teachers everywhere when they have no accountability and cant get fired because they are protected by unions. Hell, the only way to fire a teacher is if he/she fucks one of their students.
People suck at their jobs in every industry, and to say that isnt the case in education is incredibly naive.
I see you also watched "waiting for superman" - teachers are held accountable by parents and believe it or not kids. I've never seen anyone talk attrition rates when talking to this topic; and teachers quit for several reasons. Among these things are pay/pressure/or general dissatisfaction with the whole system. Are they a shitty teacher when their hands are tied to teaching to kids with methods they don't agree with? Educators are expected to be this mythological conveyer of knowledge using tactics of repetition/beating info into their brains and when they fail - its the teachers fault. Can there really be a bad teacher when the curriculum is founded around having a person "preach" info to the masses? Why not just a tape recorder? No - don't talk to me about shitty teachers until we put them in situations where they're doing more than being a speaker in a lecture based environment - followed by a standard worksheet.
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Actually I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to superman. Agree with everything you said though. In high school I worked for a small business (restaurant) owned by a former teacher from Wisconsin and his wife. He liked teaching and everything but he had no freedom to teach his own methods and eventually became fed up with the system and the unions so they started a business in KC of all places.
i love that anytime education is brought up, the right's first cry is "bad, lazy teachers", as though it's an epidemic.
It is an epidemic. I can think of plenty of shitty teachers I've had over the years. It should be no surprise that there are horrible teachers everywhere when they have no accountability and cant get fired because they are protected by unions. Hell, the only way to fire a teacher is if he/she fucks one of their students.
People suck at their jobs in every industry, and to say that isnt the case in education is incredibly naive.
I have a feeling you were just a shitty student.
I'll admit I was never a great student by any stretch but there were much, much worse students than me.
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Excellent post Mrs Hbz.
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We pay the same taxes and it'd be nice to reap some of the benefits in the education we choose.
i'd like my no child refund.
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We pay the same taxes and it'd be nice to reap some of the benefits in the education we choose.
i'd like my no child refund.
:thumbs:
In our world, you wouldn't even pay in to begin with.
Back to the original series of questions though - this seems like a situation of "well, government mumped up public education, let's make private education an option for everyone!" - just seems completely ridiculous to me. If your goal is better education, fix public education - that's what you're in charge of - don't go rough ridin' up the private sector and sell it as "evening the playing field."
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In our world, you wouldn't even pay in to begin with.
:love:
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should consider student population per country as well, it'd make it seem less.
note: Finland is hugely publicly educated. giving this responsibility to the private sector is NOT the only solution/not necessarily the friendliest to taxpayers.
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should consider student population per country as well, it'd make it seem less.
note: Finland is hugely publicly educated. giving this responsibility to the private sector is NOT the only solution/not necessarily the friendliest to taxpayers.
:confused:
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infographs are fun, if you only use information that will help your case.
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should consider student population per country as well, it'd make it seem less.
infographs are fun, if you only use information that will help your case.
This is why the first and most telling stat is per student spending. We spend FAR more than any other industrialized country and get the least for our money.
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Children are the future.
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should consider student population per country as well, it'd make it seem less.
infographs are fun, if you only use information that will help your case.
This is why the first and most telling stat is per student spending. We spend FAR more than any other industrialized country and get the least for our money.
Those graphs tell us that Finland, Canada, South Korea, and Australia have elite school systems. They don't tell much else because you are comparing test scores of US students to other countries with a lower school life expectancy. Of course those schools are going to have higher test scores if all else is equal because their worst students are no longer in school dragging down the average.
It would also be interesting to see a comparison of teacher pay relative to the expected pay of professionals in other fields for each country.
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should consider student population per country as well, it'd make it seem less.
infographs are fun, if you only use information that will help your case.
This is why the first and most telling stat is per student spending. We spend FAR more than any other industrialized country and get the least for our money.
Those graphs tell us that Finland, Canada, South Korea, and Australia have elite school systems. They don't tell much else because you are comparing test scores of US students to other countries with a lower school life expectancy. Of course those schools are going to have higher test scores if all else is equal because their worst students are no longer in school dragging down the average.
It would also be interesting to see a comparison of teacher pay relative to the expected pay of professionals in other fields for each country.
I think you have the school life expectancy backwards. The higher it is, the longer they stay in school. The US has a larger dropout rate compared to those countries. We just need to face that what we are doing now is not working and the US Dept of Education, a $90,000,000,000 bureaucracy, has been making it worse since 1980.
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should consider student population per country as well, it'd make it seem less.
infographs are fun, if you only use information that will help your case.
This is why the first and most telling stat is per student spending. We spend FAR more than any other industrialized country and get the least for our money.
Those graphs tell us that Finland, Canada, South Korea, and Australia have elite school systems. They don't tell much else because you are comparing test scores of US students to other countries with a lower school life expectancy. Of course those schools are going to have higher test scores if all else is equal because their worst students are no longer in school dragging down the average.
It would also be interesting to see a comparison of teacher pay relative to the expected pay of professionals in other fields for each country.
I think you have the school life expectancy backwards. The higher it is, the longer they stay in school. The US has a larger dropout rate compared to those countries. We just need to face that what we are doing now is not working and the US Dept of Education, a $90,000,000,000 bureaucracy, has been making it worse since 1980.
Dropouts don't get tested. Those countries have a higher dropout rate than the US, hence the lower school life expectancy. Many students who do not drop out of US schools would be dropouts in those other countries, hence the higher test scores for those countries with the lower school life expectancy.
EDIT: I was not referring to the countries that I mentioned as having elite education systems. I was referring to countries with lower school life expectancy than the US and higher test scores, such as Japan, Russia, UK, and Denmark.
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This is an interesting read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Finland)
Teachers
Both primary and secondary teachers must have a Master's degree to qualify. Teaching is a respected profession and entrance to university programs is highly competitive. A prospective teacher must have very good grades and must combat fierce opposition in order to become a teacher. About only 10% of applicants to certain programs are successful (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-28/highly-educated-teachers-the-key-to-success/3858612). The respect accorded the profession and the higher salaries than the OECD average lead to higher performing and larger numbers applying for the positions, and this is reflected in the quality of teachers in Finland.
Maybe the problem is that in the US, most of the money in our school systems goes into facilities (athletic and academic), techonology (laptops and ipads), etc. while countries with good education programs spend their money on the staff.
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10 points is roughly equal to one grade level. The pessimism is more than a little overblown.
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should consider student population per country as well, it'd make it seem less.
infographs are fun, if you only use information that will help your case.
This is why the first and most telling stat is per student spending. We spend FAR more than any other industrialized country and get the least for our money.
Those graphs tell us that Finland, Canada, South Korea, and Australia have elite school systems. They don't tell much else because you are comparing test scores of US students to other countries with a lower school life expectancy. Of course those schools are going to have higher test scores if all else is equal because their worst students are no longer in school dragging down the average.
It would also be interesting to see a comparison of teacher pay relative to the expected pay of professionals in other fields for each country.
I think you have the school life expectancy backwards. The higher it is, the longer they stay in school. The US has a larger dropout rate compared to those countries. We just need to face that what we are doing now is not working and the US Dept of Education, a $90,000,000,000 bureaucracy, has been making it worse since 1980.
Dropouts don't get tested. Those countries have a higher dropout rate than the US, hence the lower school life expectancy. Many students who do not drop out of US schools would be dropouts in those other countries, hence the higher test scores for those countries with the lower school life expectancy.
EDIT: I was not referring to the countries that I mentioned as having elite education systems. I was referring to countries with lower school life expectancy than the US and higher test scores, such as Japan, Russia, UK, and Denmark.
1. Is there some international standardized test that students in all these countries take that produce these results?
2. Shouldn't the DOJ be challenging this tests as inherently racist since the all white and Korean countries do well and those who have larger black and Hispanic populations do worse?
3. What exactly is it about NCLB that caused 'merica to become stupid and poor?
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what is the percent of immigrants receiving public ed per country? the US has to be high up, if not the largest. There's no doubt at all that Finland's percent of finnish/swedish (as a primary language) speaking pupils is larger than america's english as a primary language. there's no doubt that this correlates to test scores in the least. I'm not saying that natural US citizens are elite and the immigrants are just bringing us down(no :opcat: here), but this has to be considered when comparing to other countries.
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Maybe the problem is that in the US, most of the money in our school systems goes into facilities (athletic and academic), techonology (laptops and ipads), etc. while countries with good education programs spend their money on the staff.
I would say the greatest evil is technology.
facilities - you've got to have allotment for each student in a suitable work environment
but technology...my mom, 4th grade teacher in MHK, has probably $10,000+ worth of tech in her room. teachers just got ipads. not sure why. she doesn't know why. just to "keep up" with the evolving ways of education i suppose. so that's $10000 in goods, plus another $5000 probably in software, upkeep, power, replacement parts etc. per classroom, so: 15,000*3(teachers per grade, roughly, in MHK)*7(K-6)*8(elem. schools in USD 383)=around $2.5 mil, just for the elementary classrooms. add in computer labs, libraries... plus middle and high school, and i can see where our biggest problem is.
I don't want to make it seem like we need to trash computers and go back to slates, but we need to use technology more efficiently. don't give Mrs. AboutToRetire an iPad she does not need. don't do things like buy an elmo for each room. i don't know.
now, there ARE schools which use this technology efficiently and appropriately, but so many teachers are just not educated enough on the integration of technology that it just goes to waste, and therefore that is basically burning tax dollars.
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Maybe the problem is that in the US, most of the money in our school systems goes into facilities (athletic and academic), techonology (laptops and ipads), etc. while countries with good education programs spend their money on the staff.
I would say the greatest evil is technology.
facilities - you've got to have allotment for each student in a suitable work environment
but technology...my mom, 4th grade teacher in MHK, has probably $10,000+ worth of tech in her room. teachers just got ipads. not sure why. she doesn't know why. just to "keep up" with the evolving ways of education i suppose. so that's $10000 in goods, plus another $5000 probably in software, upkeep, power, replacement parts etc. per classroom, so: 15,000*3(teachers per grade, roughly, in MHK)*7(K-6)*8(elem. schools in USD 383)=around $2.5 mil, just for the elementary classrooms. add in computer labs, libraries... plus middle and high school, and i can see where our biggest problem is.
I don't want to make it seem like we need to trash computers and go back to slates, but we need to use technology more efficiently. don't give Mrs. AboutToRetire an iPad she does not need. don't do things like buy an elmo for each room. i don't know.
now, there ARE schools which use this technology efficiently and appropriately, but so many teachers are just not educated enough on the integration of technology that it just goes to waste, and therefore that is basically burning tax dollars.
I used to think this, but I've recently discovered this was a narrow point of view. It's not that the schools are being given this technology. Technology is a good thing if it's utilized. What's wrong with this situation is school districts looking at some study that took place in some district not even remotely relevant to their own area and looked at results instead of methods. They see Colorado retrofitted their entire school with laptops and test scores went up - so other schools follow suit. This is the "throwing money at a non funding problem" mindset that people are pissed about. Perhaps your district has shitty test scores because your students have parents that work at 5:00 in the morning and don't fix a good breakfast for their kids - leaving them malnourished with mumped up blood sugar levels rendering them unable to concentrate. Why would iPad's fix this problem? No the problem is decisions being made on a state or even federal level when they should be made on a classroom level. Stop mandating teachers use iPads if the teachers know that their class problems are not related to technology. This is why some private schools are sometimes more successful (not saying they all are or even there aren't public schools that are better) But the schools answer to no one. They isolate their problems & resolve them without so called "experts" in some capitol building telling them what they're doing wrong.
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what is the percent of immigrants receiving public ed per country? the US has to be high up, if not the largest. There's no doubt at all that Finland's percent of finnish/swedish (as a primary language) speaking pupils is larger than america's english as a primary language. there's no doubt that this correlates to test scores in the least. I'm not saying that natural US citizens are elite and the immigrants are just bringing us down(no :opcat: here), but this has to be considered when comparing to other countries.
I can't speak for Finland, but most schools in Scandinavian countries teach English very well. That is why when you go to visit those countries, almost everyone you meet will speak English, often better than the average American. I'm not sure the second language thing holds up all that well.
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should consider student population per country as well, it'd make it seem less.
infographs are fun, if you only use information that will help your case.
This is why the first and most telling stat is per student spending. We spend FAR more than any other industrialized country and get the least for our money.
This comparison is pretty misleading, considering teacher benefits are included in the U.S. average but not in countries with publicly funded universal health care.
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I full agree about bad teachers. That was my point about raising pay. An $80k yr job attracts a lot of very qualified workers who work hard to keep that job. A $30k starting salary attracts candidates who want to be finished for the day at 3:30pm and get summers off.
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I don't really see a problem with teachers starting at $30K for a 24 year old. If they are driven and enjoy teaching, having a performance based salary should allow for pretty quick increase. An employer matched 401K could also be a good incentive.
But eff all the kids in the classes of those teachers 1st & 2nd years of learning how to be a teacher - which is a fairly large amount of kids considering the flame out teachers who quit early in their careers. Quality educators can make more money in their first 5 years with less standards running a day care with only 5 kids. Fact.
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I was a teacher for 13 years, mostly in KCK. NCLB was doomed from the beginning. The goal of having 100% of students test at a proficient level is ridiculous, because 100% of students are not capable of meeting that standard. This includes special ed students, ELL students who have lived in the U.S. for a year, and students who are more worried about when they will be able to eat or have a bed to sleep in than if they can identify the text structure of a reading passage.
Parents blame teachers for everything. Tommy didn't do his homework? Teacher's fault. Tommy punched another kid? Teacher's fault. Kids ARE learning...learning how to avoid responsibility just like their parents!
BTW, I didn't belong to the union. I do think it is ridiculously hard to fire bad teachers, but it can be done if the principals document everything. I don't think there is a fair way to reward teachers based on performance. Reviews are too subjective. Test scores don't reflect the quality of the teacher.
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I full agree about bad teachers. That was my point about raising pay. An $80k yr job attracts a lot of very qualified workers who work hard to keep that job. A $30k starting salary attracts candidates who want to be finished for the day at 3:30pm and get summers off.
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I don't really see a problem with teachers starting at $30K for a 24 year old. If they are driven and enjoy teaching, having a performance based salary should allow for pretty quick increase. An employer matched 401K could also be a good incentive.
But eff all the kids in the classes of those teachers 1st & 2nd years of learning how to be a teacher - which is a fairly large amount of kids considering the flame out teachers who quit early in their careers. Quality educators can make more money in their first 5 years with less standards running a day care with only 5 kids. Fact.
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I was a teacher for 13 years, mostly in KCK. NCLB was doomed from the beginning. The goal of having 100% of students test at a proficient level is ridiculous, because 100% of students are not capable of meeting that standard. This includes special ed students, ELL students who have lived in the U.S. for a year, and students who are more worried about when they will be able to eat or have a bed to sleep in than if they can identify the text structure of a reading passage.
Parents blame teachers for everything. Tommy didn't do his homework? Teacher's fault. Tommy punched another kid? Teacher's fault. Kids ARE learning...learning how to avoid responsibility just like their parents!
BTW, I didn't belong to the union. I do think it is ridiculously hard to fire bad teachers, but it can be done if the principals document everything. I don't think there is a fair way to reward teachers based on performance. Reviews are too subjective. Test scores don't reflect the quality of the teacher.
When you were teaching, did you not have a good sense of who the good teachers were? Why not elect a panel of fellow faculty to help give testimony that would be used to help set teachers' salaries?
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I full agree about bad teachers. That was my point about raising pay. An $80k yr job attracts a lot of very qualified workers who work hard to keep that job. A $30k starting salary attracts candidates who want to be finished for the day at 3:30pm and get summers off.
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I don't really see a problem with teachers starting at $30K for a 24 year old. If they are driven and enjoy teaching, having a performance based salary should allow for pretty quick increase. An employer matched 401K could also be a good incentive.
But eff all the kids in the classes of those teachers 1st & 2nd years of learning how to be a teacher - which is a fairly large amount of kids considering the flame out teachers who quit early in their careers. Quality educators can make more money in their first 5 years with less standards running a day care with only 5 kids. Fact.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I was a teacher for 13 years, mostly in KCK. NCLB was doomed from the beginning. The goal of having 100% of students test at a proficient level is ridiculous, because 100% of students are not capable of meeting that standard. This includes special ed students, ELL students who have lived in the U.S. for a year, and students who are more worried about when they will be able to eat or have a bed to sleep in than if they can identify the text structure of a reading passage.
Parents blame teachers for everything. Tommy didn't do his homework? Teacher's fault. Tommy punched another kid? Teacher's fault. Kids ARE learning...learning how to avoid responsibility just like their parents!
BTW, I didn't belong to the union. I do think it is ridiculously hard to fire bad teachers, but it can be done if the principals document everything. I don't think there is a fair way to reward teachers based on performance. Reviews are too subjective. Test scores don't reflect the quality of the teacher.
When you were teaching, did you not have a good sense of who the good teachers were? Why not elect a panel of fellow faculty to help give testimony that would be used to help set teachers' salaries?
because schools are the biggest water cooler of all time when it comes to gossip. and teachers form alliances, and play favorites... especially the admin. this system could easily be abused.
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Yes, I knew who the good teachers were, and the bad ones were totally obvious. However, the water cooler point is true. My principal loved me....and I'm pretty sure he wanted to get in my pants. I would have received excellent reviews even if I had gone in and passed out worksheets everyday.
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I really don't want to drop in on this thread too much other than to say:
John is a rough ridin' idiot with little to no understanding of the current education system and how it compares to international standards aside from what his latest talking point sheet tells him.
subpoint: Find out what tracking is
subpoint: Find out what the Scopes Monkey Trial was about and try to figure out why we need organizations to protect teachers, especially in states like Ks, Wi, etc etc
Point two: Stellarcat appears to be doing good work in this thread
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The problem is there are more administrators than teachers. A subproblem is that there are also more paras than teachers.
We've managed to turn something as simple as reading, writing, math and science into a bureaucracy that's more political than politics itself. The entire structure is completely asinine and organized under the guise of "fairness"(at least we know who to blame).
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plus, with private schools, we won't be able to see how little the teachers make in The Mercury each spring :/
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http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx
You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.
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The problem is there are more administrators than teachers. A subproblem is that there are also more paras than teachers.
We've managed to turn something as simple as reading, writing, math and science into a bureaucracy that's more political than politics itself. The entire structure is completely asinine and organized under the guise of "fairness"(at least we know who to blame).
There are not more admins than teachers, the problem is they have more power than teachers could hope for. There are not more paras than teachers, but people like you don't want to pay fair amount of taxes to support public education so paras are the only option left.
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http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx
You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.
Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.
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I am not sure where you are getting the notion that there is a plethora of paras in schools, but there are definitely more now than there were when I started teaching. However, they are certainly needed, especially when the law states that all children must be educated in the least restrictive environment possible.
My last year of teaching (2 years ago), I had 22 students in my fifth grade class. One student was autistic, and he was on the lower functioning end of the spectrum...very challenging. Another student was bipolar and oppositional defiant, and he regularly threw things across the room, was violent toward both students and adults, and ran out of the classroom every time he was expected to do work. I had one para for a limited time each day. But hey, if my students (including the two mentioned above) didn't pass the state assessments, guess who got the blame?
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http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx
You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.
Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.
What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers? As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.
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My main problem with the admin(at least in my wife's district) is that many of them are not good at their job. I don't think teachers make good admins, but that is who they hire.
They take people who's experience is dealing with 20-30 10yr olds for the last decade, then put them in charge of 20-30 adults and a medium to large budget/facility. I don't care what the 4 semesters of Masters class does for them, the leap between the two is extraordinarily drastic and the personality required to be successful at the former is most likely not the right personality to be effective at the later.
I mean, the way the admins admin is ridic in 80% of the examples I have knowledge of. Their handling of personnel, the culture they create/maintain, and their decisions overall are insane as often as not.
When the supt is a former PE, Language, or Science teacher who is managing a hundred teachers and a 15 mill budget, it seems like a recipe for a product that isn't as quality as it should be. Yet this is normal.
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My main problem with the admin(at least in my wife's district) is that many of them are not good at their job. I don't think teachers make good admins, but that is who they hire.
They take people who's experience is dealing with 20-30 10yr olds for the last decade, then put them in charge of 20-30 adults and a medium to large budget/facility. I don't care what the 4 semesters of Masters class does for them, the leap between the two is extraordinarily drastic and the personality required to be successful at the former is most likely not the right personality to be effective at the later.
I mean, the way the admins admin is ridic in 80% of the examples I have knowledge of. Their handling of personnel, the culture they create/maintain, and their decisions overall are insane as often as not.
When the supt is a former PE, Language, or Science teacher who is managing a hundred teachers and a 15 mill budget, it seems like a recipe for a product that isn't as quality as it should be. Yet this is normal.
I had never thought about it that way. I do think that there has to be some teaching experience required, though, unless every building was required to have a curriculum/instruction person as well.
I would hate to be a principal, fwiw. Dealing with crappy parents, meeting AYP, trying to help bad teachers. Hey, wait! I already did all of that as a teacher. :horrorsurprise:
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http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx
You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.
Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.
What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers? As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.
I guess I would say that the problem isn't necessarily the amount of pay that any particular administrator receives, just that there are way too many administrators. CNS Casey made a great point about school districts hiring teachers who have absolutely no administrative experience, and then paying them 6 figures to run the district.
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http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx
You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.
Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.
What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers? As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.
imo, public schools need to up their focus on this. I mean, my wife's district gets grants, but they are little ones(ex: $500 for 3rd grade technology or $800 for the elementary library), and while every little bit is surely appreciated, they could probs be doing a lot better if they hired the right personnel and turned the heat up.
Have a budget gap? go market the budget gap to the right audience apply the need to those in the community who are positioned to willingly help out, rather than waiting for someone at the state level to email you about some crap fed grant. Seriously, my wife is one of the biggest grant getters in her school and the biggest thing they have received in 10 yrs is a grant that gives them some mini laptops in such a quantity that all 4 classes in the grade have to rotate them since there is only enough for one class to use them at a time and even then there are 4 kids per one laptop.
Again, they have ex teachers in these roles. People who can teach your kids to read but have never had to hustle, market, and push for donations before.
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http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx
You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.
Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.
What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers? As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.
imo, public schools need to up their focus on this. I mean, my wife's district gets grants, but they are little ones(ex: $500 for 3rd grade technology or $800 for the elementary library), and while every little bit is surely appreciated, they could probs be doing a lot better if they hired the right personnel and turned the heat up.
Have a budget gap? go market the budget gap to the right audience apply the need to those in the community who are positioned to willingly help out, rather than waiting for someone at the state level to email you about some crap fed grant. Seriously, my wife is one of the biggest grant getters in her school and the biggest thing they have received in 10 yrs is a grant that gives them some mini laptops in such a quantity that all 4 classes in the grade have to rotate them since there is only enough for one class to use them at a time and even then there are 4 kids per one laptop.
Again, they have ex teachers in these roles. People who can teach your kids to read but have never had to hustle, market, and push for donations before.
Considering how difficult it is for a school district to get rid of failing personnel, hiring a grant writer is a pretty risky proposition (the risk being that the school district could hire somebody who just isn't good at writing grants). I would assume a good grant writer would cost upwards of $100k, which would totally be worth it if this writer was pulling in ~$300k per year. Are there a lot of big $ grants out there for public school systems? A professional grant writer will not be able to cover their own salary writing grants for less than $1000.
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http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx
You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.
Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.
What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers? As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.
imo, public schools need to up their focus on this. I mean, my wife's district gets grants, but they are little ones(ex: $500 for 3rd grade technology or $800 for the elementary library), and while every little bit is surely appreciated, they could probs be doing a lot better if they hired the right personnel and turned the heat up.
Have a budget gap? go market the budget gap to the right audience apply the need to those in the community who are positioned to willingly help out, rather than waiting for someone at the state level to email you about some crap fed grant. Seriously, my wife is one of the biggest grant getters in her school and the biggest thing they have received in 10 yrs is a grant that gives them some mini laptops in such a quantity that all 4 classes in the grade have to rotate them since there is only enough for one class to use them at a time and even then there are 4 kids per one laptop.
Again, they have ex teachers in these roles. People who can teach your kids to read but have never had to hustle, market, and push for donations before.
Considering how difficult it is for a school district to get rid of failing personnel, hiring a grant writer is a pretty risky proposition (the risk being that the school district could hire somebody who just isn't good at writing grants). I would assume a good grant writer would cost upwards of $100k, which would totally be worth it if this writer was pulling in ~$300k per year. Are there a lot of big $ grants out there for public school systems? A professional grant writer will not be able to cover their own salary writing grants for less than $1000.
Yeah I don't know about quantity of avail grants. I was talking about doing more than grant writing. I was suggesting out right fundraising.
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1. NCLB is not perfect however it has made teachers and schools more aware of struggling populations/students. This information when used successfully allows teachers to generate programs/curriculum to meet the needs of each student. This increased individualization has had an impact.
2. As class sizes have grown and funding has been cut Para's (when used properly) allow for the increased individualization of instruction. Good paras represent a great value in education.
3. The criticism of the size, structure, and pay of Administration doesn't seem to hold up under scrutiny. First how many corporations/organizations employ management from outside their organization or area of expertise? If corporations were forced to disclose compensation for management/administration do you think school employees would make more? Do you think their job is considerably easier?
4. As it relates to finance and oversight I agree that the majority of funding should be done at the state level. However i fail to see how having a set of nationalized educational goals and objectives is a negative. Does that mean we need a nationalized curriculum? No. But establishing a common "finish line makes sense to me.
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3. The criticism of the size, structure, and pay of Administration doesn't seem to hold up under scrutiny. First how many corporations/organizations employ management from outside their organization or area of expertise? If corporations were forced to disclose compensation for management/administration do you think school employees would make more? Do you think their job is considerably easier?
Difference is that the personality and skillset of someone who relates well to a room full of 10yr olds is very often not the right personality and skillset of someone who should be managing a district full of adults. It's a personality type thing. The same traits that make a good teacher can actually make you a bad boss.
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Sure there are bad hires but don't you prolly hire someone with sales experience managing sales?
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1. NCLB is not perfect however it has made teachers and schools more aware of struggling populations/students. This information when used successfully allows teachers to generate programs/curriculum to meet the needs of each student. This increased individualization has had an impact.
I disagree with this point. As the proficiency percentages increased, I was less able to create lessons or even supplement the district curriculum. We spent all day, every day until the end of April cramming test prep into all students' heads, regardless of ability or readiness level. Once May came around, the whole atmosphere lightened and the kids started to enjoy learning. We were allowed to do big, cross-curricular projects. We were allowed to teach social studies and science!
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Sure there are bad hires but don't you prolly hire someone with sales experience managing sales?
I don't think you can generalize and compare education to most of the private industries out there. I mean, it is somewhat unique due to the level of interaction with children. I get that experience makes management easier, but I don't think your above example translates ever single time. I think education may be one of the times that it may not translate.
I get that there are good admins out there I just don't believe there as many as there should be.
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3. The criticism of the size, structure, and pay of Administration doesn't seem to hold up under scrutiny. First how many corporations/organizations employ management from outside their organization or area of expertise? If corporations were forced to disclose compensation for management/administration do you think school employees would make more? Do you think their job is considerably easier?
I don't think there really is anybody holding the typical school administrator accountable in the way that stockholders hold a corporation's CEO accountable.
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Comparing any private enterprise to any government department is apple to oranges and should never be done. One is in business to make money for others and one is in business to spend others money.
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3. The criticism of the size, structure, and pay of Administration doesn't seem to hold up under scrutiny. First how many corporations/organizations employ management from outside their organization or area of expertise? If corporations were forced to disclose compensation for management/administration do you think school employees would make more? Do you think their job is considerably easier?
I don't think there really is anybody holding the typical school administrator accountable in the way that stockholders hold a corporation's CEO accountable.
You think stockholders hold corporations CEOs accountable? LOL
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Comparing any private enterprise to any government department is apple to oranges and should never be done. One is in business to make money for others and one is in business to spend others money.
That statement isn't even right on its own stupid logic.
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I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.
If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.
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I don't think the time off evens anything out. So you get a job that is ok with you only being there 2 months. those don't usually pay well. So let's say $10/hr. Over two months you are earning $3400. That doesn't take an avg teach salary and suddenly make the year's earnings good. Starting in the $30k's and earning another $3400 still means that you aren't getting paid crap. Especially considering what society is asking you to do and expecting from you.
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I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.
If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.
Just move to California. You can be making more than $90,000 with full retirement bennies within 15 years. The state may be broke by then, but its worth a shot.
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I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.
If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.
Just move to California. You can be making more than $90,000 with full retirement bennies within 15 years. The state may be broke by then, but its worth a shot.
Does that $90,000 include benefits or is that base salary? Also, what do California teachers start at?
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3. The criticism of the size, structure, and pay of Administration doesn't seem to hold up under scrutiny. First how many corporations/organizations employ management from outside their organization or area of expertise? If corporations were forced to disclose compensation for management/administration do you think school employees would make more? Do you think their job is considerably easier?
I don't think there really is anybody holding the typical school administrator accountable in the way that stockholders hold a corporation's CEO accountable.
Board of Education????
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I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.
If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.
yeah than include continuing ed which is necessary for NCLB, spending more of their own money than any other profession would to make their work places (classrooms) run because people don't want to pay a fair share for taxes to support their schools, regularly spend at least 20% more time than they are contracted doing school duties, or the fact that many other people do get those days off as well and no, teachers are behind the 8 ball.
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3. The criticism of the size, structure, and pay of Administration doesn't seem to hold up under scrutiny. First how many corporations/organizations employ management from outside their organization or area of expertise? If corporations were forced to disclose compensation for management/administration do you think school employees would make more? Do you think their job is considerably easier?
I don't think there really is anybody holding the typical school administrator accountable in the way that stockholders hold a corporation's CEO accountable.
Board of Education????
They are just a bunch of parents who know absolutely nothing about how a school system works. Do you really think they are going to be as hard to please as a board of directors who are majority shareholders in your company and whose livelihoods are directly tied to your performance?
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1. NCLB is not perfect however it has made teachers and schools more aware of struggling populations/students. This information when used successfully allows teachers to generate programs/curriculum to meet the needs of each student. This increased individualization has had an impact.
I disagree with this point. As the proficiency percentages increased, I was less able to create lessons or even supplement the district curriculum. We spent all day, every day until the end of April cramming test prep into all students' heads, regardless of ability or readiness level. Once May came around, the whole atmosphere lightened and the kids started to enjoy learning. We were allowed to do big, cross-curricular projects. We were allowed to teach social studies and science!
Elementary?
It can be time consuming but science and social studies can be incorporated into lessons preparing students for math and language arts assessment.
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I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.
If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.
yeah than include continuing ed which is necessary for NCLB, spending more of their own money than any other profession would to make their work places (classrooms) run because people don't want to pay a fair share for taxes to support their schools, regularly spend at least 20% more time than they are contracted doing school duties, or the fact that many other people do get those days off as well and no, teachers are behind the 8 ball.
I don't think teachers are worked too hard, by any means. They are moderately underpaid, but really I think we need to stop giving kids summers off school. Just make them go year-round and compensate teachers accordingly.
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3. The criticism of the size, structure, and pay of Administration doesn't seem to hold up under scrutiny. First how many corporations/organizations employ management from outside their organization or area of expertise? If corporations were forced to disclose compensation for management/administration do you think school employees would make more? Do you think their job is considerably easier?
I don't think there really is anybody holding the typical school administrator accountable in the way that stockholders hold a corporation's CEO accountable.
Board of Education????
They are just a bunch of parents who know absolutely nothing about how a school system works. Do you really think they are going to be as hard to please as a board of directors who are majority shareholders in your company and whose livelihoods are directly tied to your performance?
Your initial point was concerning administrative accountability. My point is there is a board in place to formerly evaluate performance. If you feel BOE's are incompetent fine, but if you contend that stockholders hold CEO's accountable I would suggest parents represent the educational equivalent. I would even venture to say that most are more passionate about there children than there stock options.
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Also a little bit of google research indicates that the average private school tuition is around $8,600.
Does this mean that the government is more cost effective than the private sector???
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I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.
If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.
yeah than include continuing ed which is necessary for NCLB, spending more of their own money than any other profession would to make their work places (classrooms) run because people don't want to pay a fair share for taxes to support their schools, regularly spend at least 20% more time than they are contracted doing school duties, or the fact that many other people do get those days off as well and no, teachers are behind the 8 ball.
I don't think teachers are worked too hard, by any means. They are moderately underpaid, but really I think we need to stop giving kids summers off school. Just make them go year-round and compensate teachers accordingly.
Jesus Christ no. Kids need a damn break - they're not developmentally able to stay focused for a normal school year until junior high. You sound like a parent that wants free childcare.
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I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.
If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.
yeah than include continuing ed which is necessary for NCLB, spending more of their own money than any other profession would to make their work places (classrooms) run because people don't want to pay a fair share for taxes to support their schools, regularly spend at least 20% more time than they are contracted doing school duties, or the fact that many other people do get those days off as well and no, teachers are behind the 8 ball.
I don't think teachers are worked too hard, by any means. They are moderately underpaid, but really I think we need to stop giving kids summers off school. Just make them go year-round and compensate teachers accordingly.
Jesus Christ no. Kids need a damn break - they're not developmentally able to stay focused for a normal school year until junior high. You sound like a parent that wants free childcare.
LOL, I don't have kids. I'm just a citizen concerned about the future of this country. Kids can get breaks. They don't need a 3 month break.
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I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.
If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.
Just move to California. You can be making more than $90,000 with full retirement bennies within 15 years. The state may be broke by then, but its worth a shot.
Does that $90,000 include benefits or is that base salary? Also, what do California teachers start at?
That's base. I am describing a good friend who travels to exotic places every year and uses her sick leave to play golf school days. They start at about $35K, and depending on education and type of kids you teach, pay goes up pretty quickly.
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http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx
You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.
Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.
What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers? As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.
I would venture a guess that the manager of a applebees makes $28000 starting off, without a central staff to boot. Of course if he fails the customer goes to chilis. If the admin fails the only option is for the customer to move districts or pony up $8600 per kid for private school.
The applebees guy also works year round and on weekends :sdeek:
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http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx
You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.
Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.
What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers? As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.
I would venture a guess that the manager of a applebees makes $28000 starting off, without a central staff to boot. Of course if he fails the customer goes to chilis. If the admin fails the only option is for the customer to move districts or pony up $8600 per kid for private school.
The applebees guy also works year round and on weekends :sdeek:
:lol:
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I am not sure where you are getting the notion that there is a plethora of paras in schools, but there are definitely more now than there were when I started teaching. However, they are certainly needed, especially when the law states that all children must be educated in the least restrictive environment possible.
My last year of teaching (2 years ago), I had 22 students in my fifth grade class. One student was autistic, and he was on the lower functioning end of the spectrum...very challenging. Another student was bipolar and oppositional defiant, and he regularly threw things across the room, was violent toward both students and adults, and ran out of the classroom every time he was expected to do work. I had one para for a limited time each day. But hey, if my students (including the two mentioned above) didn't pass the state assessments, guess who got the blame?
Well we've identified another symptom of a much larger problem. What's "fair" to one kid is completely unfair to 21 others. But what would the public school system be if we didn't placate those screaming the loudest.
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I am not sure where you are getting the notion that there is a plethora of paras in schools, but there are definitely more now than there were when I started teaching. However, they are certainly needed, especially when the law states that all children must be educated in the least restrictive environment possible.
My last year of teaching (2 years ago), I had 22 students in my fifth grade class. One student was autistic, and he was on the lower functioning end of the spectrum...very challenging. Another student was bipolar and oppositional defiant, and he regularly threw things across the room, was violent toward both students and adults, and ran out of the classroom every time he was expected to do work. I had one para for a limited time each day. But hey, if my students (including the two mentioned above) didn't pass the state assessments, guess who got the blame?
Well we've identified another symptom of a much larger problem. What's "fair" to one kid is completely unfair to 21 others. But what would the public school system be if we didn't placate those screaming the loudest.
What is your solution for students with special needs?
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I am not sure where you are getting the notion that there is a plethora of paras in schools, but there are definitely more now than there were when I started teaching. However, they are certainly needed, especially when the law states that all children must be educated in the least restrictive environment possible.
My last year of teaching (2 years ago), I had 22 students in my fifth grade class. One student was autistic, and he was on the lower functioning end of the spectrum...very challenging. Another student was bipolar and oppositional defiant, and he regularly threw things across the room, was violent toward both students and adults, and ran out of the classroom every time he was expected to do work. I had one para for a limited time each day. But hey, if my students (including the two mentioned above) didn't pass the state assessments, guess who got the blame?
Well we've identified another symptom of a much larger problem. What's "fair" to one kid is completely unfair to 21 others. But what would the public school system be if we didn't placate those screaming the loudest.
What is your solution for students with special needs?
I'm torn between abortion and public school administrator apprenticeships?
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I am not sure where you are getting the notion that there is a plethora of paras in schools, but there are definitely more now than there were when I started teaching. However, they are certainly needed, especially when the law states that all children must be educated in the least restrictive environment possible.
My last year of teaching (2 years ago), I had 22 students in my fifth grade class. One student was autistic, and he was on the lower functioning end of the spectrum...very challenging. Another student was bipolar and oppositional defiant, and he regularly threw things across the room, was violent toward both students and adults, and ran out of the classroom every time he was expected to do work. I had one para for a limited time each day. But hey, if my students (including the two mentioned above) didn't pass the state assessments, guess who got the blame?
Well we've identified another symptom of a much larger problem. What's "fair" to one kid is completely unfair to 21 others. But what would the public school system be if we didn't placate those screaming the loudest.
What is your solution for students with special needs?
I say team them up with the teachers with special needs.
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90 percent of school administrators are rough ridin' worthless. The other 10 percent last about three years before moving on after some rat on the school board gets her panties in a bunch over her kid having to actually follow the rules.
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I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.
If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.
yeah than include continuing ed which is necessary for NCLB, spending more of their own money than any other profession would to make their work places (classrooms) run because people don't want to pay a fair share for taxes to support their schools, regularly spend at least 20% more time than they are contracted doing school duties, or the fact that many other people do get those days off as well and no, teachers are behind the 8 ball.
I don't think teachers are worked too hard, by any means. They are moderately underpaid, but really I think we need to stop giving kids summers off school. Just make them go year-round and compensate teachers accordingly.
Jesus Christ no. Kids need a damn break - they're not developmentally able to stay focused for a normal school year until junior high. You sound like a parent that wants free childcare.
LOL, I don't have kids. I'm just a citizen concerned about the future of this country. Kids can get breaks. They don't need a 3 month break.
Longer stretches of a mumped up educational system isn't going to magically make everything all better. I'm seeing the biggest problem in this nation revolves around people that don't have kids or are not involved in the school system thinking they have an educated opinion on how school system should be run. So much ignorance in this thread.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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1. NCLB is not perfect however it has made teachers and schools more aware of struggling populations/students. This information when used successfully allows teachers to generate programs/curriculum to meet the needs of each student. This increased individualization has had an impact.
I disagree with this point. As the proficiency percentages increased, I was less able to create lessons or even supplement the district curriculum. We spent all day, every day until the end of April cramming test prep into all students' heads, regardless of ability or readiness level. Once May came around, the whole atmosphere lightened and the kids started to enjoy learning. We were allowed to do big, cross-curricular projects. We were allowed to teach social studies and science!
Elementary?
It can be time consuming but science and social studies can be incorporated into lessons preparing students for math and language arts assessment.
Yes, elementary. The point is that teachers have less freedom to incorporate anything into the lessons, because districts are now on a kick to stick to the textbooks. When I started teaching, it was the opposite and teaching straight from the book was frowned upon. Besides, the best way to teach SS and Science is to do so with a hands-on approach. I still have students from years ago who remember colonization because we divided into teams, "sailed" across the ocean, traded with Native Americans, lost colony members to illness, etc. Teamwork, compromise... They wouldn't have learned our retained nearly as much if the subject was being taught while reading passages for test prep.
Kind of getting off topic, because I'm sure you all were dying to read about my lesson plans for fifth grade. I loved teaching, but I hated cramming test prep every hour of every day. Just got my Master's in School Counseling, so I'm pretty excited that I will struggle to find a job because of the budget cuts and subsequent decisions to cut counselors left and right. :thumbsup:
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I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.
If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.
yeah than include continuing ed which is necessary for NCLB, spending more of their own money than any other profession would to make their work places (classrooms) run because people don't want to pay a fair share for taxes to support their schools, regularly spend at least 20% more time than they are contracted doing school duties, or the fact that many other people do get those days off as well and no, teachers are behind the 8 ball.
I don't think teachers are worked too hard, by any means. They are moderately underpaid, but really I think we need to stop giving kids summers off school. Just make them go year-round and compensate teachers accordingly.
Jesus Christ no. Kids need a damn break - they're not developmentally able to stay focused for a normal school year until junior high. You sound like a parent that wants free childcare.
LOL, I don't have kids. I'm just a citizen concerned about the future of this country. Kids can get breaks. They don't need a 3 month break.
Longer stretches of a mumped up educational system isn't going to magically make everything all better. I'm seeing the biggest problem in this nation revolves around people that don't have kids or are not involved in the school system thinking they have an educated opinion on how school system should be run. So much ignorance in this thread.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
yeah, i'm tired of people who dont have kids but who have gone thru the education system themselves give input. i mean, they only witnessed first hand for thirteen years how schools are run. times have changed, sure.
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1. NCLB is not perfect however it has made teachers and schools more aware of struggling populations/students. This information when used successfully allows teachers to generate programs/curriculum to meet the needs of each student. This increased individualization has had an impact.
I disagree with this point. As the proficiency percentages increased, I was less able to create lessons or even supplement the district curriculum. We spent all day, every day until the end of April cramming test prep into all students' heads, regardless of ability or readiness level. Once May came around, the whole atmosphere lightened and the kids started to enjoy learning. We were allowed to do big, cross-curricular projects. We were allowed to teach social studies and science!
Elementary?
It can be time consuming but science and social studies can be incorporated into lessons preparing students for math and language arts assessment.
Yes, elementary. The point is that teachers have less freedom to incorporate anything into the lessons, because districts are now on a kick to stick to the textbooks. When I started teaching, it was the opposite and teaching straight from the book was frowned upon. Besides, the best way to teach SS and Science is to do so with a hands-on approach. I still have students from years ago who remember colonization because we divided into teams, "sailed" across the ocean, traded with Native Americans, lost colony members to illness, etc. Teamwork, compromise... They wouldn't have learned our retained nearly as much if the subject was being taught while reading passages for test prep.
Kind of getting off topic, because I'm sure you all were dying to read about my lesson plans for fifth grade. I loved teaching, but I hated cramming test prep every hour of every day. Just got my Master's in School Counseling, so I'm pretty excited that I will struggle to find a job because of the budget cuts and subsequent decisions to cut counselors left and right. :thumbsup:
exactly. anymore, teachers are just trying to scramble to figure out ways to teach kids what may or may not be on the assessments, and that is not necessarily what they should be focusing on. 5th grade, did colonization, then westward movement, then a civil war thing. with test prep, we'd never have time to be able to get that hands on. they don't test over what you learned from those experiences, or about friction... they ask random stuff, like what materials are magnetic or not, which i think we did guess and check on this experiment in first grade.
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http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx
You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.
Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.
What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers? As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.
I would venture a guess that the manager of a applebees makes $28000 starting off, without a central staff to boot. Of course if he fails the customer goes to chilis. If the admin fails the only option is for the customer to move districts or pony up $8600 per kid for private school.
The applebees guy also works year round and on weekends :sdeek:
applebees guy makes more than many starting teachers.
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I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.
If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.
yeah than include continuing ed which is necessary for NCLB, spending more of their own money than any other profession would to make their work places (classrooms) run because people don't want to pay a fair share for taxes to support their schools, regularly spend at least 20% more time than they are contracted doing school duties, or the fact that many other people do get those days off as well and no, teachers are behind the 8 ball.
I don't think teachers are worked too hard, by any means. They are moderately underpaid, but really I think we need to stop giving kids summers off school. Just make them go year-round and compensate teachers accordingly.
Jesus Christ no. Kids need a damn break - they're not developmentally able to stay focused for a normal school year until junior high. You sound like a parent that wants free childcare.
This isn't true. There is a lot of good data that suggests retention is hurt with our long summer breaks in the US. The idea behind year long schooling is to have the same number of school days and move parts of the summer break to a longer winter break and around spring break.
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http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx
You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.
Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.
What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers? As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.
I would venture a guess that the manager of a applebees makes $28000 starting off, without a central staff to boot. Of course if he fails the customer goes to chilis. If the admin fails the only option is for the customer to move districts or pony up $8600 per kid for private school.
The applebees guy also works year round and on weekends :sdeek:
applebees guy makes more than many starting teachers.
You don't just walk into an Applebees and manage it, though. It takes years of experience to make manager.
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I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.
If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.
yeah than include continuing ed which is necessary for NCLB, spending more of their own money than any other profession would to make their work places (classrooms) run because people don't want to pay a fair share for taxes to support their schools, regularly spend at least 20% more time than they are contracted doing school duties, or the fact that many other people do get those days off as well and no, teachers are behind the 8 ball.
I don't think teachers are worked too hard, by any means. They are moderately underpaid, but really I think we need to stop giving kids summers off school. Just make them go year-round and compensate teachers accordingly.
Jesus Christ no. Kids need a damn break - they're not developmentally able to stay focused for a normal school year until junior high. You sound like a parent that wants free childcare.
LOL, I don't have kids. I'm just a citizen concerned about the future of this country. Kids can get breaks. They don't need a 3 month break.
Longer stretches of a mumped up educational system isn't going to magically make everything all better. I'm seeing the biggest problem in this nation revolves around people that don't have kids or are not involved in the school system thinking they have an educated opinion on how school system should be run. So much ignorance in this thread.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that there is some magic thing that happens when you have kids that suddenly makes you more qualified to comment on public education.
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http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx
You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.
Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.
What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers? As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.
I would venture a guess that the manager of a applebees makes $28000 starting off, without a central staff to boot. Of course if he fails the customer goes to chilis. If the admin fails the only option is for the customer to move districts or pony up $8600 per kid for private school.
The applebees guy also works year round and on weekends :sdeek:
applebees guy makes more than many starting teachers.
You don't just walk into an Applebees and manage it, though. It takes years of experience to make manager.
from high school lets say. It will take you just as much time if not less to be a manger as it would take to be a basic, minimally qualified teacher. The applebees candidate would have a further advantage of on the job training and years of experience working in the environment. Where as a teacher has none of that walking out the door aside from a few months of student teaching with significant scaffolding.
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http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx
You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.
Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.
What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers? As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.
I would venture a guess that the manager of a applebees makes $28000 starting off, without a central staff to boot. Of course if he fails the customer goes to chilis. If the admin fails the only option is for the customer to move districts or pony up $8600 per kid for private school.
The applebees guy also works year round and on weekends :sdeek:
applebees guy makes more than many starting teachers.
You don't just walk into an Applebees and manage it, though. It takes years of experience to make manager.
from high school lets say. It will take you just as much time if not less to be a manger as it would take to be a basic, minimally qualified teacher. The applebees candidate would have a further advantage of on the job training and years of experience working in the environment. Where as a teacher has none of that walking out the door aside from a few months of student teaching with significant scaffolding.
That's pretty doubtful. I would imagine you would get passed over a few times by someone with a degree.
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This isn't true. There is a lot of good data that suggests retention is hurt with our long summer breaks in the US. The idea behind year long schooling is to have the same number of school days and move parts of the summer break to a longer winter break and around spring break.
Was this "magical data" obtained from inner city districts where kids are either in school or out on the streets without a free breakfast/free lunch gang banging? Well no crap Data suggest being out of the poverty stricken environments produces better test results. I know what "data" you're talking about. The research was conducted in Chicago; It holds NO RELEVANCE to my kids.
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This isn't true. There is a lot of good data that suggests retention is hurt with our long summer breaks in the US. The idea behind year long schooling is to have the same number of school days and move parts of the summer break to a longer winter break and around spring break.
Was this "magical data" obtained from inner city districts where kids are either in school or out on the streets without a free breakfast/free lunch gang banging? Well no crap Data suggest being out of the poverty stricken environments produces better test results. I know what "data" you're talking about. The research was conducted in Chicago; It holds NO RELEVANCE to my kids.
Don't you homeschool your kids anyway?
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I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that there is some magic thing that happens when you have kids that suddenly makes you more qualified to comment on public education.
How old are you? How many friends/relatives do you have working in education? How many kids do you know currently in K-12 public schools? Are you volunteering in schools?
Because things change greatly even from year to year in the same district. The vast majority of people only know what's actually going on in schools if they have kids or are related to someone working there.
Even my above statement about administrators is really a sweeping generalization of four districts in Kansas, though it seems pretty accurate since the districts have changed but the administrators stayed pretty much the same.
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This isn't true. There is a lot of good data that suggests retention is hurt with our long summer breaks in the US. The idea behind year long schooling is to have the same number of school days and move parts of the summer break to a longer winter break and around spring break.
Was this "magical data" obtained from inner city districts where kids are either in school or out on the streets without a free breakfast/free lunch gang banging? Well no crap Data suggest being out of the poverty stricken environments produces better test results. I know what "data" you're talking about. The research was conducted in Chicago; It holds NO RELEVANCE to my kids.
Here is a link to a study conducted by the University of Missouri-Columbia on the effect of summer vacation on learning retention. It found that all students, regardless of income level, lose about one month on a grade-equivalent scale in all subjects but reading, where poor students still lose that month, but middle-class and upper-class students make small gains. The losses get greater as the students get older. Students are only in school for 9 months with a summer vacation, so having to reteach last year's work for the first month of the school year is a big deal. That's 11% of the school year. If students went to school year-round, a teacher could cover 3 months worth of material from mid-May to mid-August without having to reteach anything. That would allow them to have 4 months worth of their current material covered by mid-August, which is 44% of what is getting covered over the course of an entire school year with summer vacation. Almost an entire year's worth of material would be covered by Christmas Break.
http://rer.sagepub.com/content/66/3/227.abstract (http://rer.sagepub.com/content/66/3/227.abstract)
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I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that there is some magic thing that happens when you have kids that suddenly makes you more qualified to comment on public education.
How old are you? How many friends/relatives do you have working in education? How many kids do you know currently in K-12 public schools? Are you volunteering in schools?
Because things change greatly even from year to year in the same district. The vast majority of people only know what's actually going on in schools if they have kids or are related to someone working there.
Even my above statement about administrators is really a sweeping generalization of four districts in Kansas, though it seems pretty accurate since the districts have changed but the administrators stayed pretty much the same.
I'm 29. My wife and mother both teach. I have a few relatives in K-12, and none of them are struggling.
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I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that there is some magic thing that happens when you have kids that suddenly makes you more qualified to comment on public education.
Well let me educate you. When you don't have kids, you look at public education from a tax payers perspective. When you do have kids, you spend 3 years reading books, watching documentaries, reading published articles and test studies. You watch your kid grow up and wonder why he's walking at 7 months old, but can't catch a ball at 3 years old. You spend time talking to your Dr. about his vision/tracking when he complains of headaches while learning to read. You look at diet and realize that your kid "performs better" when s/he has a healthy diet, but will display symptoms of ADD when s/he eats highly processed sugars & highly processed carb foods. You spend an obscene amount of time researching into whether you should home school / public educate / private school. You might even have a spouse that cares about this so much that s/he works towards their masters degree as a reading specialist and writes blogs about public education reform.
So basically yes. People with kids typically are "magically" more qualified to yank intellectually on the subject.
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Here's the main point I would like to make. Standardized test are nothing but a meaningless metric for tracking how well a kid prepares for a test - which holds no bearing on intellect - just how well they absorb info. If your goal is to produce the factory workers of the world - fine. I imagine the industrial revolution had some effect on public education - so I'm not surprised in public educations desire to produce loyal subjects that easily take instruction. If you want your kid to be a critical thinker - don't measure their success with how well they prepare for a standardized test. I would be prouder of my child's refusal to take part in some song & dance routine only to be a metric in some politicians political campaign, because it would show that they understand the test doesn't mean anything unless they actually are intelligent - which doesn't really need to be proven to anyone besides themselves.
I would think a sports BBS would understand the "stars are meaningless" argument. While I'm not saying every 4.0 student will be a bust - we all know those kids that were perfect 4.0 students that are more likely to end up jamming the copier or removing the cap off the water jug before replenishing the office water cooler (spilling water all over the god damned floor) than revolutionizing some industry.
So in a sense - I'm fine with public education the way it is. But god damn-it, do not ask me for any more tax money if your primary goal is to produce factory workers - because I will home-school my child. Now if you want to produce critical thinkers that will some day be making decisions on all of our future - stop tracking your success on educating them with some pointless test. The system fighting to keep funding will use all of their energy making sure their kids pass that test and leave no time for actual education. Your kids will become very good at taking instruction - no doubt. But you'll be real god damned tired of them when they're 30 and still asking you how to balance their checkbook.
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This isn't true. There is a lot of good data that suggests retention is hurt with our long summer breaks in the US. The idea behind year long schooling is to have the same number of school days and move parts of the summer break to a longer winter break and around spring break.
Was this "magical data" obtained from inner city districts where kids are either in school or out on the streets without a free breakfast/free lunch gang banging? Well no crap Data suggest being out of the poverty stricken environments produces better test results. I know what "data" you're talking about. The research was conducted in Chicago; It holds NO RELEVANCE to my kids.
Here is a link to a study conducted by the University of Missouri-Columbia on the effect of summer vacation on learning retention. It found that all students, regardless of income level, lose about one month on a grade-equivalent scale in all subjects but reading, where poor students still lose that month, but middle-class and upper-class students make small gains. The losses get greater as the students get older. Students are only in school for 9 months with a summer vacation, so having to reteach last year's work for the first month of the school year is a big deal. That's 11% of the school year. If students went to school year-round, a teacher could cover 3 months worth of material from mid-May to mid-August without having to reteach anything. That would allow them to have 4 months worth of their current material covered by mid-August, which is 44% of what is getting covered over the course of an entire school year with summer vacation. Almost an entire year's worth of material would be covered by Christmas Break.
http://rer.sagepub.com/content/66/3/227.abstract (http://rer.sagepub.com/content/66/3/227.abstract)
I forgot to thank you for your worthless article. Here's where the part about not having a valued opinion on this subject while not having kids comes into play. My kid knew the alphabet at 14 months old. He could read simple words like Cat & Dog by 2. When he started becoming more independent in his thoughts - and dealing with real life issues like death after his pet dog died at 4 - he started asking more questions about life, god, & why people did bad things. He started to become a critical thinker. He decided he wanted to know everything there was to know about flight & propulsion. By 5 he had helped me build & launch several rockets - fully understanding the theories behind propulsion and even how lift is obtained by wing structures. He even put these principles into work while developing his own "inventions" But some people's accounts - his desire & thirst for knowledge would place him in gifted programs. He, now at 6 however, cannot read. At first we thought it was a learning disability. It turns out he has realized through our & his kindergarten teachers attempts to teach him to read - that all he was doing was a parlor trick. Simple memorization which required no critical thinking. He developed a stubbornness and refuses to learn to read. Now - IF we were to force him to learn to read - what benefit would that provide? He certainly wouldn't love to read, as people tend to not love things they're forced to do. He would never again have that thirst for knowledge. He would never read books that talked about early developments into nuclear programs and early rocket propulsion - something I know he would love because doing so would require he do something he developed a great disdain for. Reading.
So. Where do I go from here? Am I to believe that my kid will NEVER learn to read? No, that's absurd. He will learn - when he ask me a question I can't answer and when no one will read to him, he will decide that if he wants to know these things - he will have to do it himself. See the magic there? He'll do it when he decides he needs to and he'll be fully committed to doing it. Something your teacher wife & mother would agree would be amazing - a student THIRSTING to be taught. They have these kids - and they're few & far between. These are the kids that may irritate the teacher - because they'll do just fine on the test - but they keep bothering them with questions and taking away their time & energy from kids that will not do fine on the test. NCLB - is leaving behind the kids with a thirst for knowledge.
All that link above shows it kids can be taught simple parlor tricks and memorization works better with repetition. Something that will not help them in life unless they're a factory worker.
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This isn't true. There is a lot of good data that suggests retention is hurt with our long summer breaks in the US. The idea behind year long schooling is to have the same number of school days and move parts of the summer break to a longer winter break and around spring break.
Was this "magical data" obtained from inner city districts where kids are either in school or out on the streets without a free breakfast/free lunch gang banging? Well no crap Data suggest being out of the poverty stricken environments produces better test results. I know what "data" you're talking about. The research was conducted in Chicago; It holds NO RELEVANCE to my kids.
Here is a link to a study conducted by the University of Missouri-Columbia on the effect of summer vacation on learning retention. It found that all students, regardless of income level, lose about one month on a grade-equivalent scale in all subjects but reading, where poor students still lose that month, but middle-class and upper-class students make small gains. The losses get greater as the students get older. Students are only in school for 9 months with a summer vacation, so having to reteach last year's work for the first month of the school year is a big deal. That's 11% of the school year. If students went to school year-round, a teacher could cover 3 months worth of material from mid-May to mid-August without having to reteach anything. That would allow them to have 4 months worth of their current material covered by mid-August, which is 44% of what is getting covered over the course of an entire school year with summer vacation. Almost an entire year's worth of material would be covered by Christmas Break.
http://rer.sagepub.com/content/66/3/227.abstract (http://rer.sagepub.com/content/66/3/227.abstract)
I forgot to thank you for your worthless article. Here's where the part about not having a valued opinion on this subject while not having kids comes into play. My kid knew the alphabet at 14 months old. He could read simple words like Cat & Dog by 2. When he started becoming more independent in his thoughts - and dealing with real life issues like death after his pet dog died at 4 - he started asking more questions about life, god, & why people did bad things. He started to become a critical thinker. He decided he wanted to know everything there was to know about flight & propulsion. By 5 he had helped me build & launch several rockets - fully understanding the theories behind propulsion and even how lift is obtained by wing structures. He even put these principles into work while developing his own "inventions" But some people's accounts - his desire & thirst for knowledge would place him in gifted programs. He, now at 6 however, cannot read. At first we thought it was a learning disability. It turns out he has realized through our & his kindergarten teachers attempts to teach him to read - that all he was doing was a parlor trick. Simple memorization which required no critical thinking. He developed a stubbornness and refuses to learn to read. Now - IF we were to force him to learn to read - what benefit would that provide? He certainly wouldn't love to read, as people tend to not love things they're forced to do. He would never again have that thirst for knowledge. He would never read books that talked about early developments into nuclear programs and early rocket propulsion - something I know he would love because doing so would require he do something he developed a great disdain for. Reading.
So. Where do I go from here? Am I to believe that my kid will NEVER learn to read? No, that's absurd. He will learn - when he ask me a question I can't answer and when no one will read to him, he will decide that if he wants to know these things - he will have to do it himself. See the magic there? He'll do it when he decides he needs to and he'll be fully committed to doing it. Something your teacher wife & mother would agree would be amazing - a student THIRSTING to be taught. They have these kids - and they're few & far between. These are the kids that may irritate the teacher - because they'll do just fine on the test - but they keep bothering them with questions and taking away their time & energy from kids that will not do fine on the test. NCLB - is leaving behind the kids with a thirst for knowledge.
All that link above shows it kids can be taught simple parlor tricks and memorization works better with repetition. Something that will not help them in life unless they're a factory worker.
Repetition is also pretty useful if you are an engineer, doctor, lawyer, chemist, physicist, etc. :dunno:
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Heinballz, what you fail to realize is that this is not about your kid. It's about education and the effect that the kids our system is producing have on the economy in general. It's about taxpayers getting a return on their investment. Claiming you shouldn't have to fund education with your taxpayer dollars because your child is homeschooled is incredibly short-sighted.
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I know I'm a little late on this, but i thought it was funny how we are debating privatization/public education. The graph on the pg1 showed that the countries that are out performing the U.S. in science and math are some of the most Socialized countries in the world with universal healthcare and large public sector unions. So obviously those can't be what is wrong with education in the U.S. because the trend would seem to indicate the opposite.
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Heinballz, what you fail to realize is that this is not about your kid. It's about education and the effect that the kids our system is producing have on the economy in general. It's about taxpayers getting a return on their investment. Claiming you shouldn't have to fund education with your taxpayer dollars because your child is homeschooled is incredibly short-sighted.
I think the point is that kids learn at their own pace, and judging their intelligence or the efficacy of the teacher by some arbitrary test results is ridiculous. Memorizing is not an effective way to learn most concepts. I have a great memory. Math was a breeze for me when all I had to do was memorize facts and steps. Once I actually had to apply what I was memorizing, I bombed big time.
I would never homeschool, and I don't want to send my son to private school, so he will definitely be going to public school. It makes me uncomfortable that our neighborhood elementary school has freakishly high test scores, though, because now I know what they teach all day. I guess all schools do...they just excel at it.
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Heinballz, what you fail to realize is that this is not about your kid. It's about education and the effect that the kids our system is producing have on the economy in general. It's about taxpayers getting a return on their investment. Claiming you shouldn't have to fund education with your taxpayer dollars because your child is homeschooled is incredibly short-sighted.
Did I say I didn't want to pay taxes because my kid is home schooled? No. I said if your goal is to produce factory workers - don't ask me for more tax dollars because it really doesn't matter if a factory worker has drop off over summer breaks. Going to school year round would cost more - and in the long run - won't make kids smarter… but it will make them better at taking test. All they need to do is take instruction - which public school is sufficiently capable for producing on MUCH LESS than what we're already paying. If your goal is to produce critical thinkers… those who understand concepts – then we can talk. But if that’s the direction we’re going – there needs to be a complete overhaul of the entire educational system.
Repetition is also pretty useful if you are an engineer, doctor, lawyer, chemist, physicist, etc. :dunno:
As you so plainly put it, repetition is helpful to Dr.'s & engineers... which I don't argue; it's helpful to everyone. But repetition isn't something that needs to be learned in a school - it comes naturally. It comes AFTER a task is mastered - It's not a tool for mastering a future task. I should also point out, the difference between a good Dr/engineer is someone that learns from mistakes and... gasp "Thinks Critically" and doesn't get caught in repetition. The very nature of doing simple mundane task often causes people to "turn off their brain" and allow the archaic portion of their brain to take over. Like driving a car – have you ever driven for a couple hours on a highway with no traffic? You completely shut off and let motor skills take over. Is that the kind of Dr you want performing surgery on you? Or lawyer providing legal counsel? Someone that might panic in the face of something abnormal because it doesn’t fit into their regular repetitious routine? That’s how mistakes are made – but you’re encouraging people to perform simple mundane task that require no thought and touting standardized test as some metric to track how capable teachers are at creating kids that perform mindless mundane tasks.
Look, if that’s the goal of public education – so be it. But don’t move education in a more costly direction in hopes to achieve more critical thinkers – if the studies you’re basing your curriculum off of only proves to create mindless loyal subjects.
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I know I'm a little late on this, but i thought it was funny how we are debating privatization/public education. The graph on the pg1 showed that the countries that are out performing the U.S. in science and math are some of the most Socialized countries in the world with universal healthcare and large public sector unions. So obviously those can't be what is wrong with education in the U.S. because the trend would seem to indicate the opposite.
Two more random observations: those countries have far fewer poor kids and didn't spend hundreds of years trying to make sure a major part of their populations couldn't read.
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This isn't true. There is a lot of good data that suggests retention is hurt with our long summer breaks in the US. The idea behind year long schooling is to have the same number of school days and move parts of the summer break to a longer winter break and around spring break.
Was this "magical data" obtained from inner city districts where kids are either in school or out on the streets without a free breakfast/free lunch gang banging? Well no crap Data suggest being out of the poverty stricken environments produces better test results. I know what "data" you're talking about. The research was conducted in Chicago; It holds NO RELEVANCE to my kids.
Here is a link to a study conducted by the University of Missouri-Columbia on the effect of summer vacation on learning retention. It found that all students, regardless of income level, lose about one month on a grade-equivalent scale in all subjects but reading, where poor students still lose that month, but middle-class and upper-class students make small gains. The losses get greater as the students get older. Students are only in school for 9 months with a summer vacation, so having to reteach last year's work for the first month of the school year is a big deal. That's 11% of the school year. If students went to school year-round, a teacher could cover 3 months worth of material from mid-May to mid-August without having to reteach anything. That would allow them to have 4 months worth of their current material covered by mid-August, which is 44% of what is getting covered over the course of an entire school year with summer vacation. Almost an entire year's worth of material would be covered by Christmas Break.
http://rer.sagepub.com/content/66/3/227.abstract (http://rer.sagepub.com/content/66/3/227.abstract)
I forgot to thank you for your worthless article. Here's where the part about not having a valued opinion on this subject while not having kids comes into play. My kid knew the alphabet at 14 months old. He could read simple words like Cat & Dog by 2. When he started becoming more independent in his thoughts - and dealing with real life issues like death after his pet dog died at 4 - he started asking more questions about life, god, & why people did bad things. He started to become a critical thinker. He decided he wanted to know everything there was to know about flight & propulsion. By 5 he had helped me build & launch several rockets - fully understanding the theories behind propulsion and even how lift is obtained by wing structures. He even put these principles into work while developing his own "inventions" But some people's accounts - his desire & thirst for knowledge would place him in gifted programs. He, now at 6 however, cannot read. At first we thought it was a learning disability. It turns out he has realized through our & his kindergarten teachers attempts to teach him to read - that all he was doing was a parlor trick. Simple memorization which required no critical thinking. He developed a stubbornness and refuses to learn to read. Now - IF we were to force him to learn to read - what benefit would that provide? He certainly wouldn't love to read, as people tend to not love things they're forced to do. He would never again have that thirst for knowledge. He would never read books that talked about early developments into nuclear programs and early rocket propulsion - something I know he would love because doing so would require he do something he developed a great disdain for. Reading.
So. Where do I go from here? Am I to believe that my kid will NEVER learn to read? No, that's absurd. He will learn - when he ask me a question I can't answer and when no one will read to him, he will decide that if he wants to know these things - he will have to do it himself. See the magic there? He'll do it when he decides he needs to and he'll be fully committed to doing it. Something your teacher wife & mother would agree would be amazing - a student THIRSTING to be taught. They have these kids - and they're few & far between. These are the kids that may irritate the teacher - because they'll do just fine on the test - but they keep bothering them with questions and taking away their time & energy from kids that will not do fine on the test. NCLB - is leaving behind the kids with a thirst for knowledge.
All that link above shows it kids can be taught simple parlor tricks and memorization works better with repetition. Something that will not help them in life unless they're a factory worker.
you understand little of the educational process and do your child a disservice with your meaningless diatribes.
Children learn faster and with more detail in year round settings. Please also remember that the educational system is designed to teach 30 kids in a room, not just your little flesh turd. The fact is retention of material goes up when information is repeated and extended/built on.
Also your child isn't a critical thinker because he doesn't understand the process of reading.
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Heinballz, what you fail to realize is that this is not about your kid. It's about education and the effect that the kids our system is producing have on the economy in general. It's about taxpayers getting a return on their investment. Claiming you shouldn't have to fund education with your taxpayer dollars because your child is homeschooled is incredibly short-sighted.
Did I say I didn't want to pay taxes because my kid is home schooled? No. I said if your goal is to produce factory workers - don't ask me for more tax dollars because it really doesn't matter if a factory worker has drop off over summer breaks. Going to school year round would cost more - and in the long run - won't make kids smarter… but it will make them better at taking test. All they need to do is take instruction - which public school is sufficiently capable for producing on MUCH LESS than what we're already paying. If your goal is to produce critical thinkers… those who understand concepts – then we can talk. But if that’s the direction we’re going – there needs to be a complete overhaul of the entire educational system.
Repetition is also pretty useful if you are an engineer, doctor, lawyer, chemist, physicist, etc. :dunno:
As you so plainly put it, repetition is helpful to Dr.'s & engineers... which I don't argue; it's helpful to everyone. But repetition isn't something that needs to be learned in a school - it comes naturally. It comes AFTER a task is mastered - It's not a tool for mastering a future task. I should also point out, the difference between a good Dr/engineer is someone that learns from mistakes and... gasp "Thinks Critically" and doesn't get caught in repetition. The very nature of doing simple mundane task often causes people to "turn off their brain" and allow the archaic portion of their brain to take over. Like driving a car – have you ever driven for a couple hours on a highway with no traffic? You completely shut off and let motor skills take over. Is that the kind of Dr you want performing surgery on you? Or lawyer providing legal counsel? Someone that might panic in the face of something abnormal because it doesn’t fit into their regular repetitious routine? That’s how mistakes are made – but you’re encouraging people to perform simple mundane task that require no thought and touting standardized test as some metric to track how capable teachers are at creating kids that perform mindless mundane tasks.
Look, if that’s the goal of public education – so be it. But don’t move education in a more costly direction in hopes to achieve more critical thinkers – if the studies you’re basing your curriculum off of only proves to create mindless loyal subjects.
In no way does year round schooling cost more. It is the same amount of net days you idiot.
Also LOTS are foundational elements which must be built before HOTS can begin. If a teacher has to spend massive amounts of their time rebuilding the foundations of LOTS it takes longer and is an less efficient process to get to HOTS. If fact many of the advantages of the home schooling environment take advantage of similar process year long schooling would use. So in fact the educational advantages of the year round schedule would increase the likely hood of a critical thinker and not just some factory worker.
Keep in mind that multiple teachers are in this thread and are constantly clownsuiting you before your next post.
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I agree that kids would retain more with year round school, though I wonder if they would shut down for a few weeks before each break, like most do before winter and summer. I actually think that I would prefer to teach year round, once I got married and didn't have to count on a summer job to supplement my teaching income. As a kid, I think I would have hated it, because as much as I liked school, I :love: summer break.
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new curriculum plan:
have all kids read (but not post) on goEMAW. it is, after all, endorsed by an english teacher.
/thread
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you understand little of the educational process and do your child a disservice with your meaningless diatribes.
Children learn faster and with more detail in year round settings. Please also remember that the educational system is designed to teach 30 kids in a room, not just your little flesh turd. The fact is retention of material goes up when information is repeated and extended/built on.
Also your child isn't a critical thinker because he doesn't understand the process of reading.
In no way does year round schooling cost more. It is the same amount of net days you idiot.
Also LOTS are foundational elements which must be built before HOTS can begin. If a teacher has to spend massive amounts of their time rebuilding the foundations of LOTS it takes longer and is an less efficient process to get to HOTS. If fact many of the advantages of the home schooling environment take advantage of similar process year long schooling would use. So in fact the educational advantages of the year round schedule would increase the likely hood of a critical thinker and not just some factory worker.
Keep in mind that multiple teachers are in this thread and are constantly clownsuiting you before your next post.
Excuse me for quoting all of that. But it reminded me of something I used to do in college; when my friends made asses of themselves, I liked to take a picture of them to remind them later what gigantic asses they are. But let me just say… Wow. Name calling. Did I strike a nerve? Or did public education leave you with that as your one option when you're losing a debate? And who's clown suiting me? The same teachers that are currently part of a public education system that is completely failing?
As for year round school costing the same; Excuse me for confusing you with the other person that stated "... really I think we need to stop giving kids summers off school. Just make them go year-round and compensate teachers accordingly." when we were talking about teachers pay. Up until this last post, I thought you and Nutzkicked were the same person. My apologies for both of your regurgitated talking points seeming similar.
I fully understand the whole "spending the first month making up what a kid learned in the previous year" argument. And I agree. HOWEVER. If a kid was REALLY LEARNING IT, THEY WOULDN'T rough ridin' FORGET IT! Do you get that? Should I bold that for you? Possibly call you an idiot when you ignore this argument? How about numb nutz? Flesh turd? Any of those child like assaults spark something in your brain other than... how did I put that before? "REGURGITATING TALKING POINTS".... Sorry for using the same statement "REGURGITATING TALKING POINTS" twice in the same post but someone once told me when you're dealing with someone incapable of independent thought, repetition is a useful tool to teach them something. It took me a while to understand this method until I remembered a time I was training my dog not to crap on the carpet. I firmly told him "No. Shitting on the carpet is BAD!" and did this every time. He eventually stopped shitting on the carpet, because of the repetition tactic I used. Of course he fell for it, because dogs are so stupid. But then again, every once in a while, when he couldn't get out of the house fast enough, he would panic and crap on the carpet. I figured I wouldn't be so hard on him, because he was not capable of independent thought and probably resorted back to primal instincts and crap on the carpet anyway. But whatever, what were we talking about? Yes. I remember now; I have a good memory. We were talking about year round schooling and you made the fantastic point that year round education is often used in homeschooling and there are many many facts and lots and lots of research done by smart people saying this is good. I'm going to say something that may surprise you. Of course, you already think I'm an idiot and my kid is a flesh turd as you so colorfully put it, so maybe not. I agree. Education never stops. Kids are constantly learning. We employ this type of education in our home. Although, I didn't call it what it really is to us, because I figured you wouldn't get it. We're employing something known as "un-schooling" I'm sure you're aware of it because you're so smart and you've spent the last ten years clown suiting anyone that has an opinion on how their child should be raised. And by clown suiting I mean, resorting to childish name calling. For the intellectually challenged, un-schooling is a tactic that has been educating people since the very beginning of human existence. We don’t sit at a table. We don’t memorize useless facts. We don’t do work-sheets. We don’t really have a curriculum. We learn through real life experiences. This may seem crazy for you, and I don’t have any fancy graphs or charts to show you how smart my kid is. I tried to come up with some metrics and even started making a standardized test, but after I made my kid take it, he panicked and crap on the carpet. But I have a feeling you knew that with your uncanny ability to guess his nickname, “Flesh Turd”. Here’s the most simplified way I can describe unschooling to you, because I know this might be a tough concept, and you may need to read this a couple of times. I’ll be sure to invite you back to this thread every day with a little PM so that you can re-read and get your daily dose of repetition with hopes that you’ll learn this new fangled way of teaching. Here it is. Wait for it. We let our kid decide what he wants to learn.
SHOCK HORROR!!! OMG, WTF? DHJSWITHS? (Did he just say what I thought he said?) Yes. Absurd, isn’t it? I know what you’re thinking. “Lazy little flesh turd probably just sits in front of the TV all day, every day, doesn’t he?” Sometimes. You’d be amazed at how much he learns doing that even. But no; he doesn’t do that everyday, and in fact – when comparing him to myself at his age – someone who was brought up in public education… and even comparing him to his friends that are currently in public education, he watches about ¼ of the average kid. I would say in the range of 4-6 hours a week. Sometimes none at all in a week – sometimes double that amount. You may be asking – what has he learned? Well, earlier this year, he was in Kindergarten. I know, right? Real honest to God government run rough ridin' kindergarten. I’m such a putz, right? Anyway, when he was in kindergarten which I’m only counting to mid December when we realized we were wrong to go with the flow and tell ourselves our fears of a crappy public education were unfounded – he learned how to write the entire alphabet – count up to 25 and simple things such as rhyming words & patterns. I referenced in an earlier post a patterns worksheet “nickel, nickel, dime; nickel, nickel, dime; nickel, nickel _____” fill in the blank – real worksheet; real mind bending stuff. Get this – he even memorized/read a fancy little book about “a cat who sat” who then later “ate a rat.” Needless to say, poor little flesh turd was bored to tears. He came home from school telling us his brain didn’t work right because the teacher told him if he couldn’t stay focused long enough to see what the cat ate, he would have to sit in for his recess. There was also an issue where he had to sit in from recess because he lost his pencil. I don’t blame his teacher – she was too busy cramming for a standardized test to remember he was only 5 and sitting still and shutting the eff up is sometimes difficult for someone at that age when their broken little brains are so busy not staying focused on mind numbing tasks. Fearing our little flesh turd would eventually grow up thinking he was stupid because he failed to see the importance of nickel, nickel, dime worksheets by the dozens – we pulled him out. Since that time, we’ve not done much. He wired a large scale wiring schematic and developed an understanding of how electricity works. He then, “completely on his own”, made comparisons of electrical circuits to the human brain. I doubt however he thought of this completely on his own however – he probably learned it by sitting on his ass watching TV on one of his “I don’t give a crap days”. After coming to this revelation – he decided he wanted to see a real brain – which I obliged by helping him dissect a turkey brain his cousin had shot this turkey season. He also had many questions about the turkey’s heart, lungs, liver & intestines – then explained to his mother later that night at diner how his grilled salmon would be turned into poop after his body had absorbed all of the vital nutrients. Which made me feel good, because I was fearful that dissecting a turkey at such an early age might give him an unhealthy fascination with organs which would most definitely turn him into a serial killer some day. We also discussed how wing structures obtain lift and showed him on the turkey’s wings how even nature uses this basic principle in flight. He knew turkeys could fly btw, because he’s not a rough ridin' idiot. Recently, (several months after the turkey dissection) while visiting a flight museum – he pointed out the shape of the wing and explained to a complete stranger how air moving faster over the top of the wing produced low pressure which in turn created higher pressure on the bottom of the wing which results in generating lift – like a turkey wing. The stranger promptly told him that turkey’s couldn’t fly and my 6 year old son clown-suited him without calling him any names. He simply explained that wild turkeys could fly because they weren’t fattened up like the ones you see on a farm. He probably learned that on one of our weekly trips to a local farm where we buy free range eggs & whole un-pasteurized milk. Anyway, this post is getting long enough and I’m sure I’ll get a couple of mindless :dnr: from some ape thumping his chest to show everyone his/her incredible reading comprehension.
But here’s my final point directed towards you. I got in this thread to share my opinion as the premise of the topic suggested public education is broken and needs fixing. I agree and shared my opinion on why it’s broken. I’m rather firm in my beliefs and I don’t feel the need to bow down to you. I don’t see you as inferior and I don’t see myself as superior. I’m okay with where my child is. I’m completely okay with my feelings on this subject. I’m completely okay with your thoughts on this subject. If I resorted to name calling, please consider it tongue in cheek and much of what I post is satirical. I firmly disagree with you and that’s okay. I don’t see the purpose of extending a school year when the very foundation of the school system is broken. It’s what people like to call “throwing money at a problem” oops… suggesting additional spending pisses you off. How about, beating a dead horse? That do anything for you?
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It's really only broken in poor areas.
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Year round school is problematic in agricultural areas.
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Wow, HeinBallz....you clearly don't use a tablet to post. That would have taken me an hour to type.
Um, so...anybody want to discuss vouchers?
Oh, and I did forget about rural areas re: year round school. Good point.
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Year round school is problematic in agricultural 70 years ago.
Fyp
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Wow, HeinBallz....you clearly don't use a tablet to post. That would have taken me an hour to type.
Um, so...anybody want to discuss vouchers?
Oh, and I did forget about rural areas re: year round school. Good point.
My problem with vouchers is that not only does private education cost more than public education, but there is not enough classroom space in private schools to take all of the kids who would qualify for vouchers in failing public schools. Private schools cover the same curriculum as public schools while paying their teachers less, which would suggest that teachers at private schools either aren't as good at their job, or they are working at the private school to avoid the type of kid who would be qualifying for a voucher. I think that the higher test scores produced by private schools are more a product of the type of student who attends those schools than the schools themselves, and it's not realistic to expect that poor students who get a voucher to a private school to all of a sudden become good students.
In short, they are a waste of money.
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you understand little of the educational process and do your child a disservice with your meaningless diatribes.
Children learn faster and with more detail in year round settings. Please also remember that the educational system is designed to teach 30 kids in a room, not just your little flesh turd. The fact is retention of material goes up when information is repeated and extended/built on.
Also your child isn't a critical thinker because he doesn't understand the process of reading.
In no way does year round schooling cost more. It is the same amount of net days you idiot.
Also LOTS are foundational elements which must be built before HOTS can begin. If a teacher has to spend massive amounts of their time rebuilding the foundations of LOTS it takes longer and is an less efficient process to get to HOTS. If fact many of the advantages of the home schooling environment take advantage of similar process year long schooling would use. So in fact the educational advantages of the year round schedule would increase the likely hood of a critical thinker and not just some factory worker.
Keep in mind that multiple teachers are in this thread and are constantly clownsuiting you before your next post.
Excuse me for quoting all of that. But it reminded me of something I used to do in college; when my friends made asses of themselves, I liked to take a picture of them to remind them later what gigantic asses they are. But let me just say… Wow. Name calling. Did I strike a nerve? Or did public education leave you with that as your one option when you're losing a debate? And who's clown suiting me? The same teachers that are currently part of a public education system that is completely failing?
As for year round school costing the same; Excuse me for confusing you with the other person that stated "... really I think we need to stop giving kids summers off school. Just make them go year-round and compensate teachers accordingly." when we were talking about teachers pay. Up until this last post, I thought you and Nutzkicked were the same person. My apologies for both of your regurgitated talking points seeming similar.
I fully understand the whole "spending the first month making up what a kid learned in the previous year" argument. And I agree. HOWEVER. If a kid was REALLY LEARNING IT, THEY WOULDN'T rough ridin' FORGET IT! Do you get that? Should I bold that for you? Possibly call you an idiot when you ignore this argument? How about numb nutz? Flesh turd? Any of those child like assaults spark something in your brain other than... how did I put that before? "REGURGITATING TALKING POINTS".... Sorry for using the same statement "REGURGITATING TALKING POINTS" twice in the same post but someone once told me when you're dealing with someone incapable of independent thought, repetition is a useful tool to teach them something. It took me a while to understand this method until I remembered a time I was training my dog not to crap on the carpet. I firmly told him "No. Shitting on the carpet is BAD!" and did this every time. He eventually stopped shitting on the carpet, because of the repetition tactic I used. Of course he fell for it, because dogs are so stupid. But then again, every once in a while, when he couldn't get out of the house fast enough, he would panic and crap on the carpet. I figured I wouldn't be so hard on him, because he was not capable of independent thought and probably resorted back to primal instincts and crap on the carpet anyway. But whatever, what were we talking about? Yes. I remember now; I have a good memory. We were talking about year round schooling and you made the fantastic point that year round education is often used in homeschooling and there are many many facts and lots and lots of research done by smart people saying this is good. I'm going to say something that may surprise you. Of course, you already think I'm an idiot and my kid is a flesh turd as you so colorfully put it, so maybe not. I agree. Education never stops. Kids are constantly learning. We employ this type of education in our home. Although, I didn't call it what it really is to us, because I figured you wouldn't get it. We're employing something known as "un-schooling" I'm sure you're aware of it because you're so smart and you've spent the last ten years clown suiting anyone that has an opinion on how their child should be raised. And by clown suiting I mean, resorting to childish name calling. For the intellectually challenged, un-schooling is a tactic that has been educating people since the very beginning of human existence. We don’t sit at a table. We don’t memorize useless facts. We don’t do work-sheets. We don’t really have a curriculum. We learn through real life experiences. This may seem crazy for you, and I don’t have any fancy graphs or charts to show you how smart my kid is. I tried to come up with some metrics and even started making a standardized test, but after I made my kid take it, he panicked and crap on the carpet. But I have a feeling you knew that with your uncanny ability to guess his nickname, “Flesh Turd”. Here’s the most simplified way I can describe unschooling to you, because I know this might be a tough concept, and you may need to read this a couple of times. I’ll be sure to invite you back to this thread every day with a little PM so that you can re-read and get your daily dose of repetition with hopes that you’ll learn this new fangled way of teaching. Here it is. Wait for it. We let our kid decide what he wants to learn.
SHOCK HORROR!!! OMG, WTF? DHJSWITHS? (Did he just say what I thought he said?) Yes. Absurd, isn’t it? I know what you’re thinking. “Lazy little flesh turd probably just sits in front of the TV all day, every day, doesn’t he?” Sometimes. You’d be amazed at how much he learns doing that even. But no; he doesn’t do that everyday, and in fact – when comparing him to myself at his age – someone who was brought up in public education… and even comparing him to his friends that are currently in public education, he watches about ¼ of the average kid. I would say in the range of 4-6 hours a week. Sometimes none at all in a week – sometimes double that amount. You may be asking – what has he learned? Well, earlier this year, he was in Kindergarten. I know, right? Real honest to God government run rough ridin' kindergarten. I’m such a putz, right? Anyway, when he was in kindergarten which I’m only counting to mid December when we realized we were wrong to go with the flow and tell ourselves our fears of a crappy public education were unfounded – he learned how to write the entire alphabet – count up to 25 and simple things such as rhyming words & patterns. I referenced in an earlier post a patterns worksheet “nickel, nickel, dime; nickel, nickel, dime; nickel, nickel _____” fill in the blank – real worksheet; real mind bending stuff. Get this – he even memorized/read a fancy little book about “a cat who sat” who then later “ate a rat.” Needless to say, poor little flesh turd was bored to tears. He came home from school telling us his brain didn’t work right because the teacher told him if he couldn’t stay focused long enough to see what the cat ate, he would have to sit in for his recess. There was also an issue where he had to sit in from recess because he lost his pencil. I don’t blame his teacher – she was too busy cramming for a standardized test to remember he was only 5 and sitting still and shutting the eff up is sometimes difficult for someone at that age when their broken little brains are so busy not staying focused on mind numbing tasks. Fearing our little flesh turd would eventually grow up thinking he was stupid because he failed to see the importance of nickel, nickel, dime worksheets by the dozens – we pulled him out. Since that time, we’ve not done much. He wired a large scale wiring schematic and developed an understanding of how electricity works. He then, “completely on his own”, made comparisons of electrical circuits to the human brain. I doubt however he thought of this completely on his own however – he probably learned it by sitting on his ass watching TV on one of his “I don’t give a crap days”. After coming to this revelation – he decided he wanted to see a real brain – which I obliged by helping him dissect a turkey brain his cousin had shot this turkey season. He also had many questions about the turkey’s heart, lungs, liver & intestines – then explained to his mother later that night at diner how his grilled salmon would be turned into poop after his body had absorbed all of the vital nutrients. Which made me feel good, because I was fearful that dissecting a turkey at such an early age might give him an unhealthy fascination with organs which would most definitely turn him into a serial killer some day. We also discussed how wing structures obtain lift and showed him on the turkey’s wings how even nature uses this basic principle in flight. He knew turkeys could fly btw, because he’s not a rough ridin' idiot. Recently, (several months after the turkey dissection) while visiting a flight museum – he pointed out the shape of the wing and explained to a complete stranger how air moving faster over the top of the wing produced low pressure which in turn created higher pressure on the bottom of the wing which results in generating lift – like a turkey wing. The stranger promptly told him that turkey’s couldn’t fly and my 6 year old son clown-suited him without calling him any names. He simply explained that wild turkeys could fly because they weren’t fattened up like the ones you see on a farm. He probably learned that on one of our weekly trips to a local farm where we buy free range eggs & whole un-pasteurized milk. Anyway, this post is getting long enough and I’m sure I’ll get a couple of mindless :dnr: from some ape thumping his chest to show everyone his/her incredible reading comprehension.
But here’s my final point directed towards you. I got in this thread to share my opinion as the premise of the topic suggested public education is broken and needs fixing. I agree and shared my opinion on why it’s broken. I’m rather firm in my beliefs and I don’t feel the need to bow down to you. I don’t see you as inferior and I don’t see myself as superior. I’m okay with where my child is. I’m completely okay with my feelings on this subject. I’m completely okay with your thoughts on this subject. If I resorted to name calling, please consider it tongue in cheek and much of what I post is satirical. I firmly disagree with you and that’s okay. I don’t see the purpose of extending a school year when the very foundation of the school system is broken. It’s what people like to call “throwing money at a problem” oops… suggesting additional spending pisses you off. How about, beating a dead horse? That do anything for you?
**No trolling**
I really enjoyed your post. I think you do have some valuable insights about how to teach your child better. To immerse your kid in the experiments, dissections, and complex discussions is what is suppose to happen in a good learning environment. You cannot have true learning until you are able to reach kids in multiple ways with the content so that it progress to HOTS and doesn't become a simple exercise in regurgitation. That is the problem with public school system today. I felt like you were being too critical of teachers. The simple fact is very little about the school system today is designed the way good teachers would make the system. Its part of the reason why I'm not teaching now to be honest. I'm half of the opinion that year round would be good, half loving long vacations. Don't forget that year round school isn't extending the school years, but a reorganization of it.
I react very negatively to the people on this board who talk about privatising certain aspects of our society because they don't understand how that aspect functions, what place it has in our society, and how selling it off to a bidder wont fix the problem. There are a few critical areas where its scary how much the Republican party is willing to sellout America in the interest of their corporate masters.
I would encourage you to make sure your kiddo has socialization opportunities for his development as well. I would also encourage you to continuously re-examine your decision to stay out of public schools. There are too many damn good teachers out there to miss out on opportunities.
**end**
have fun raising your flesh turd
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I see the long posts and assume this thread is similar to media types circlejerking and butthurting about media issues.
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I see the long posts and assume this thread is similar to media types circlejerking and butthurting about media issues.
A three headed monster of swaim, scotchie, DJamer wally couldn't dream of touching the levels of butthurt heinz has displayed in this thread
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I see the long posts and assume this thread is similar to media types circlejerking and butthurting about media issues.
A three headed monster of swaim, scotchie, DJamer wally couldn't dream of touching the levels of butthurt heinz has displayed in this thread
I was thinking more of the tully/meek/etc type when somebody questions what role a newspaper should have or something, but yeah.
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it seems like having children turns roughly 80% of the population into dumbasses
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i feel bad for hballz kid. :frown:
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i feel bad for hballz kid. :frown:
yeah, his inevitable rebelling is 100% guaranteed to be spectacular.
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Well let me further my butthurt by dispelling a few more common misconceptions in public education. It does not cost LESS than private education. I'm not sure where someone got the figures for their cost per pupil but it's not ALWAYS less than the average public school. It's around $12,000 per student – while private education most often runs from 5000 – 14000, but I’ve seen as high as 25000 per student. Someone earlier posted the average as 8500 – and I would agree with that as that seems to be the median. I'm speaking to Kansas only - and it will vary by state.
Also - there are MANY different types of private schools. To generalize them all by saying they all have the same curriculum of public schools shows you don't know what the hell you're talking about. There are private schools that have no curriculum - it's completely open learning and the teacher is only there as a guide in a students exploration. There are private schools that build their entire curriculum around religion. There are private schools that follow the same core standards – but they don’t teach to standardized tests and the teachers have freedom to teach how they want in their class.
I’ll re-emphasize my point. There are FANTASTIC teachers in the public school system. My wife, Mother & Sister inlaw are, or at one point were, in the public school system and I would consider them each fantastic teachers. But they are not able to teach to their best ability because they’re FORCED to teach TO standardized test. Standardized test are only necessary because tax payers are demanding to see results. So we’ve created this pointless metric to track how well kids are learning so some politician can tout his education platform and justify his/her state taxes. This is the very reason I feel VERY STRONGLY that the government should stay the eff out of private education. Even vouchers are a horrible idea. Because it won’t be long before tax payers demand to see results in the private sector – when really it shouldn’t be any of their damned business. You want to fix public education. Stop mandating standardized test and allow teachers to teach lessons like Stellarcat was mentioning. If kids learned with a hands on approach and weren’t stuck with memorization and repetition methods, there would be no drop off during summer break and it would take a lifetime to forget those lessons – not 3 months.
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BTW, I think everyone's opinions on my kid is hilarious and shows the main problem with public education. People with no perspective, skimming through satirical post, and thinking they have a valued opinion on the subject. Did any of you losers even read my post?
yeah, his inevitable rebelling is 100% guaranteed to be spectacular.
Counting on it. My kid will be alot more exciting to watch than some cookie cutter kid produced by standardized tests.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qga5eONXU_4
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so my kid can do a full front flip off the diving board this year. last year he could only get like 3/4's around but this year a whole flip. also can dive. you'd think the dive would come first and then the flip but you'd be wrong. also, hballz is way too over involved in his kids life and is kind of freaking me out.
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BTW, I think everyone's opinions on my kid is hilarious and shows the main problem with public education. People with no perspective, skimming through satirical post, and thinking they have a valued opinion on the subject. Did any of you losers even read my post?
let me just say… Wow. Name calling. Did I strike a nerve? Or did public education leave you with that as your one option when you're losing a debate?
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Did you read the end of the post when I predicted countless :DNR: and called my post satirical and any name calling was tongue in cheek?
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Did you read the end of the post when I predicted countless :DNR: and called my post satirical and any name calling was tongue in cheek?
so when you call people names it's ok, but when other people do it, it's because you struck a nerve or because that was all public education left them with as their one option when they're losing a debate? ok gotcha. typical do as i say and not as i do parenting that is all too rampant in our society today. sad really.
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Has anyone clarafied that Romney has no intention of privatizing education? I don't think he intends to do about 90% of what he says.
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Did you read the end of the post when I predicted countless :DNR: and called my post satirical and any name calling was tongue in cheek?
so when you call people names it's ok, but when other people do it, it's because you struck a nerve or because that was all public education left them with as their one option when they're losing a debate? ok gotcha. typical do as i say and not as i do parenting that is all too rampant in our society today. sad really.
I was smiling the whole time, were you?
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yeah, his inevitable rebelling is 100% guaranteed to be spectacular.
Counting on it. My kid will be alot more exciting to watch than some cookie cutter kid produced by standardized tests.
oh great. so heinballz was the weird kid with slightly above average intelligence that didn't have a lot of friends and thought he was smarter than he was and invented a little world where there was the great heinballz and then there was "society" and "cookie cutters". now he's going to raise another one just like him. break the cycle hballz, life is too short.
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I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.
If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.
yeah than include continuing ed which is necessary for NCLB, spending more of their own money than any other profession would to make their work places (classrooms) run because people don't want to pay a fair share for taxes to support their schools, regularly spend at least 20% more time than they are contracted doing school duties, or the fact that many other people do get those days off as well and no, teachers are behind the 8 ball.
I don't think teachers are worked too hard, by any means. They are moderately underpaid, but really I think we need to stop giving kids summers off school. Just make them go year-round and compensate teachers accordingly.
Jesus Christ no. Kids need a damn break - they're not developmentally able to stay focused for a normal school year until junior high. You sound like a parent that wants free childcare.
This isn't true. There is a lot of good data that suggests retention is hurt with our long summer breaks in the US. The idea behind year long schooling is to have the same number of school days and move parts of the summer break to a longer winter break and around spring break.
But the kids need to be off for 3 months for the harvest. (the reason for the summer breaks in the current school year)
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oh great. so heinballz was the weird kid with slightly above average intelligence that didn't have a lot of friends and thought he was smarter than he was and invented a little world where there was the great heinballz and then there was "society" and "cookie cutters". now he's going to raise another one just like him. break the cycle hballz, life is too short.
That's it exactly. You guys should be psychiatrist.
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Did you read the end of the post when I predicted countless :DNR: and called my post satirical and any name calling was tongue in cheek?
so when you call people names it's ok, but when other people do it, it's because you struck a nerve or because that was all public education left them with as their one option when they're losing a debate? ok gotcha. typical do as i say and not as i do parenting that is all too rampant in our society today. sad really.
I was smiling the whole time, were you?
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you are either lying or this is the creepiest thing that i've ever read on here. smiling the whole time you wrote all of that? so freaking weird.
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oh great. so heinballz was the weird kid with slightly above average intelligence that didn't have a lot of friends and thought he was smarter than he was and invented a little world where there was the great heinballz and then there was "society" and "cookie cutters". now he's going to raise another one just like him. break the cycle hballz, life is too short.
That's it exactly. You guys should be psychiatrist.
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you guys? there is just one of me heinzballz. this might be worse than i thought though.
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Am I crazy or shouldn't a kid who cannot even read at 6 be praying he can even be a factory worker?
There is zero market for someone who cannot read the english language but can parrot back informtion about wings/lift.
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Am I crazy or shouldn't a kid who cannot even read at 6 be praying he can even be a factory worker?
There is zero market for someone who cannot read the english language but can parrot back informtion about wings/lift.
You're probably right. I'll promptly start voting democrat so he'll at least be able to be on welfare the rest of his life.
But to get this back on track - I fear my actual opinion on the topic was lost in all the back in forth about flesh turds, so I'd like to bring this back up for everyone's take:
There are FANTASTIC teachers in the public school system. .... But they are not able to teach to their best ability because they’re FORCED to teach TO standardized test. Standardized test are only necessary because tax payers are demanding to see results. So we’ve created this pointless metric to track how well kids are learning so some politician can tout his education platform and justify his/her state taxes. This is the very reason I feel VERY STRONGLY that the government should stay the eff out of private education. Even vouchers are a horrible idea. Because it won’t be long before tax payers demand to see results in the private sector – when really it shouldn’t be any of their damned business. You want to fix public education. Stop mandating standardized test and allow teachers to teach lessons like Stellarcat was mentioning. If kids learned with a hands on approach and weren’t stuck with memorization and repetition methods, there would be no drop off during summer break and it would take a lifetime to forget those lessons – not 3 months.
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Am I crazy or shouldn't a kid who cannot even read at 6 be praying he can even be a factory worker?
There is zero market for someone who cannot read the english language but can parrot back informtion about wings/lift.
Hein's kid can't read? I haven't read any of this. I can read though.
My buddy teaches in Salina. Man, summers off. I've got to go to court twice there next week and am going to lunchpak my face off with this dude both times.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UJ9Ggs3Dkk
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guy I was in the frat with got his degree in education. I was cramming for an international econ final and he had to play the recorder.
Now, he is a principal and texts me from the pool, gym and/or bar all summer.
I golf pak with him when I can but I have lots of work to do during the summer.
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Well let me further my butthurt by dispelling a few more common misconceptions in public education. It does not cost LESS than private education. I'm not sure where someone got the figures for their cost per pupil but it's not ALWAYS less than the average public school. It's around $12,000 per student – while private education most often runs from 5000 – 14000, but I’ve seen as high as 25000 per student. Someone earlier posted the average as 8500 – and I would agree with that as that seems to be the median. I'm speaking to Kansas only - and it will vary by state.
Also - there are MANY different types of private schools. To generalize them all by saying they all have the same curriculum of public schools shows you don't know what the hell you're talking about. There are private schools that have no curriculum - it's completely open learning and the teacher is only there as a guide in a students exploration. There are private schools that build their entire curriculum around religion. There are private schools that follow the same core standards – but they don’t teach to standardized tests and the teachers have freedom to teach how they want in their class.
I’ll re-emphasize my point. There are FANTASTIC teachers in the public school system. My wife, Mother & Sister inlaw are, or at one point were, in the public school system and I would consider them each fantastic teachers. But they are not able to teach to their best ability because they’re FORCED to teach TO standardized test. Standardized test are only necessary because tax payers are demanding to see results. So we’ve created this pointless metric to track how well kids are learning so some politician can tout his education platform and justify his/her state taxes. This is the very reason I feel VERY STRONGLY that the government should stay the eff out of private education. Even vouchers are a horrible idea. Because it won’t be long before tax payers demand to see results in the private sector – when really it shouldn’t be any of their damned business. You want to fix public education. Stop mandating standardized test and allow teachers to teach lessons like Stellarcat was mentioning. If kids learned with a hands on approach and weren’t stuck with memorization and repetition methods, there would be no drop off during summer break and it would take a lifetime to forget those lessons – not 3 months.
Regardless of the education method implemented by the various private schools out there, parents send their kids to private schools so their kids won't be in a classroom next to poor kids. Vouchers would defeat the point.
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Really? Is that why you send your kid to private school? Are you racist? Read my last post to see why my wife and I thought about sending our son to a private Montessori school. FTR, we live in a middle-upper class town with less than 1% being minority.
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Really? Is that why you send your kid to private school? Are you racist? Read my last post to see why my wife and I thought about sending our son to a private Montessori school. FTR, we live in a middle-upper class town with less than 1% being minority.
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I don't have kids.
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guy I was in the frat with got his degree in education. I was cramming for an international econ final and he had to play the recorder.
Now, he is a principal and texts me from the pool, gym and/or bar all summer.
I golf pak with him when I can but I have lots of work to do during the summer.
You left out that you make 2x or 3x his salary and that women react much better to hearing a guy is a lawyer than hearing a guy is a principal.
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guy I was in the frat with got his degree in education. I was cramming for an international econ final and he had to play the recorder.
Now, he is a principal and texts me from the pool, gym and/or bar all summer.
I golf pak with him when I can but I have lots of work to do during the summer.
You left out that you make 2x or 3x his salary and that women react much better to hearing a guy is a lawyer than hearing a guy is a principal.
Sole owner of goEMAW.com.
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Really? Is that why you send your kid to private school? Are you racist? Read my last post to see why my wife and I thought about sending our son to a private Montessori school. FTR, we live in a middle-upper class town with less than 1% being minority.
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I don't have kids.
:surprised:
Seriously.. Honest reaction... No really. :surprised:
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It is the idea that 6 year olds should be able to dictate what they are learning that contributes to the frustration of teaching. While I agree that cramming test prep is a horrible way to teach, it drives me crazy that parents don't think that their kids should be expected to sit still, follow directions, and do what they are told. It is great that you provide learning opportunities outside of normal school activities, but did you really take your kid out of school because they were expecting him to sit still and learn to read?
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It is the idea that 6 year olds should be able to dictate what they are learning that contributes to the frustration of teaching. While I agree that cramming test prep is a horrible way to teach, it drives me crazy that parents don't think that their kids should be expected to sit still, follow directions, and do what they are told. It is great that you provide learning opportunities outside of normal school activities, but did you really take your kid out of school because they were expecting him to sit still and learn to read?
I do expect my kid to sit still and follow directions. It becomes harder for a 6 year old to do that however when their morning snack is a little debbie cake filled with sugar and topped off with a pepsi. And no, We did not take our kid out of school because he couldn't sit still and learn to read. That's absurd and I question your reading comprehension if that's what you took from the last 7 pages of me describing our situation.
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It is the idea that 6 year olds should be able to dictate what they are learning that contributes to the frustration of teaching. While I agree that cramming test prep is a horrible way to teach, it drives me crazy that parents don't think that their kids should be expected to sit still, follow directions, and do what they are told. It is great that you provide learning opportunities outside of normal school activities, but did you really take your kid out of school because they were expecting him to sit still and learn to read?
I do expect my kid to sit still and follow directions. It becomes harder for a 6 year old to do that however when their morning snack is a little debbie cake filled with sugar and topped off with a pepsi. And no, We did not take our kid out of school because he couldn't sit still and learn to read. That's absurd and I question your reading comprehension if that's what you took from the last 7 pages of me describing our situation.
So is Little Debbie causing your child's ADD? You could try ritalin or its generic equivalent.
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:bait:
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It is the idea that 6 year olds should be able to dictate what they are learning that contributes to the frustration of teaching. While I agree that cramming test prep is a horrible way to teach, it drives me crazy that parents don't think that their kids should be expected to sit still, follow directions, and do what they are told. It is great that you provide learning opportunities outside of normal school activities, but did you really take your kid out of school because they were expecting him to sit still and learn to read?
I do expect my kid to sit still and follow directions. It becomes harder for a 6 year old to do that however when their morning snack is a little debbie cake filled with sugar and topped off with a pepsi. And no, We did not take our kid out of school because he couldn't sit still and learn to read. That's absurd and I question your reading comprehension if that's what you took from the last 7 pages of me describing our situation.
My reading comprehension is fine, thanks. I went back and reread, just to make sure that I didn't miss anything that you had said. I get that you have problems with teaching to the NCLB tests, and that your child wasn't getting enough attention with regard to enrichment because of the other children in the class. However, if I was teaching kindergarten, my first priority would be to teach the kid how to read. And yes, I would find it frustrating if I knew that the student was refusing to learn to read because it was all a parlor trick. I would have a hard time just letting that be okay and skipping reading instruction because the child would prefer to do something else.
I'm not sure where your child went to school, because I have never seen a classroom where snack cakes and Pepsi were given (or allowed) as snacks, or where a kindergarten teacher was cramming test prep...they don't have NCLB until third grade.
I'm glad that you can afford to homeschool, because a majority of people cannot. I'm sure my son would learn at an accelerated pace if I could devote all of my time to teaching him. I think school is more important, though, because he will learn more about interaction with others and expectations of society than I could ever teach him if I kept him home.
We agree on a lot regarding NCLB, and perhaps I overstepped a bit questioning you on your motives. Like I said, the fact that six year olds are able to determine what they will and will not do is a frustration of mine, but you have to do what you think is right for your own kid.
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It is the idea that 6 year olds should be able to dictate what they are learning that contributes to the frustration of teaching. While I agree that cramming test prep is a horrible way to teach, it drives me crazy that parents don't think that their kids should be expected to sit still, follow directions, and do what they are told. It is great that you provide learning opportunities outside of normal school activities, but did you really take your kid out of school because they were expecting him to sit still and learn to read?
I do expect my kid to sit still and follow directions. It becomes harder for a 6 year old to do that however when their morning snack is a little debbie cake filled with sugar and topped off with a pepsi. And no, We did not take our kid out of school because he couldn't sit still and learn to read. That's absurd and I question your reading comprehension if that's what you took from the last 7 pages of me describing our situation.
My reading comprehension is fine, thanks. I went back and reread, just to make sure that I didn't miss anything that you had said. I get that you have problems with teaching to the NCLB tests, and that your child wasn't getting enough attention with regard to enrichment because of the other children in the class. However, if I was teaching kindergarten, my first priority would be to teach the kid how to read. And yes, I would find it frustrating if I knew that the student was refusing to learn to read because it was all a parlor trick. I would have a hard time just letting that be okay and skipping reading instruction because the child would prefer to do something else.
I'm not sure where your child went to school, because I have never seen a classroom where snack cakes and Pepsi were given (or allowed) as snacks, or where a kindergarten teacher was cramming test prep...they don't have NCLB until third grade.
I'm glad that you can afford to homeschool, because a majority of people cannot. I'm sure my son would learn at an accelerated pace if I could devote all of my time to teaching him. I think school is more important, though, because he will learn more about interaction with others and expectations of society than I could ever teach him if I kept him home.
We agree on a lot regarding NCLB, and perhaps I overstepped a bit questioning you on your motives. Like I said, the fact that six year olds are able to determine what they will and will not do is a frustration of mine, but you have to do what you think is right for your own kid.
Agreed. Reading is a passing fad in my opinion. Will soon be antiquated like math and using the toilet.
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It is the idea that 6 year olds should be able to dictate what they are learning that contributes to the frustration of teaching. While I agree that cramming test prep is a horrible way to teach, it drives me crazy that parents don't think that their kids should be expected to sit still, follow directions, and do what they are told. It is great that you provide learning opportunities outside of normal school activities, but did you really take your kid out of school because they were expecting him to sit still and learn to read?
I do expect my kid to sit still and follow directions. It becomes harder for a 6 year old to do that however when their morning snack is a little debbie cake filled with sugar and topped off with a pepsi. And no, We did not take our kid out of school because he couldn't sit still and learn to read. That's absurd and I question your reading comprehension if that's what you took from the last 7 pages of me describing our situation.
My reading comprehension is fine, thanks. I went back and reread, just to make sure that I didn't miss anything that you had said. I get that you have problems with teaching to the NCLB tests, and that your child wasn't getting enough attention with regard to enrichment because of the other children in the class. However, if I was teaching kindergarten, my first priority would be to teach the kid how to read. And yes, I would find it frustrating if I knew that the student was refusing to learn to read because it was all a parlor trick. I would have a hard time just letting that be okay and skipping reading instruction because the child would prefer to do something else.
I'm not sure where your child went to school, because I have never seen a classroom where snack cakes and Pepsi were given (or allowed) as snacks, or where a kindergarten teacher was cramming test prep...they don't have NCLB until third grade.
I'm glad that you can afford to homeschool, because a majority of people cannot. I'm sure my son would learn at an accelerated pace if I could devote all of my time to teaching him. I think school is more important, though, because he will learn more about interaction with others and expectations of society than I could ever teach him if I kept him home.
We agree on a lot regarding NCLB, and perhaps I overstepped a bit questioning you on your motives. Like I said, the fact that six year olds are able to determine what they will and will not do is a frustration of mine, but you have to do what you think is right for your own kid.
No, and sorry for attacking your reading comprehension; there's so much trolling going on towards little 'ol me, I figured the fishing was slow and you were throwing your bait out as well. Your assessment of our decision to pull my son is a bit off. It was primarily due to his sudden decrease in his passion for learning - which I attributed to his teacher being a 40 year old woman in her first year of teaching that just switched careers from nursing. We had several issues but the major ones involved the teacher using my son as a surrogate for a learning disabled ADD kid; because my son was the only person he would play with & not bite. That's not to say my kid was never disruptive, but during PT conferences, his teacher herself would defend my son saying he was never the instigator and everyone at the LD kids table constantly got into trouble. That didn't stop us from having serious consequences for him when he did get into trouble, but when we noticed a trend of him avoiding trouble on the days LD kid was not there (which was often) we asked our teacher to move desk around - which she did... for 2 days. She moved them back together because the LD kid would become un-managable when he couldn't sit next to his "only friend" I honestly feel like an ass for not wanting that kid to sit next to mine but he went through pre-school and he ended up at the top of the class by years end; he started out so eager and loving kindergarten and within 3 months was begging to not go to school. (I'm sure I'll catch flack from what's his name that said parents put their kids in private school to stay away from poor kids, but that simply isn't true) I'm aware that the testing had nothing to do with NCLB, but it didn't stop our teacher. We actually asked why in kindergarten, kids were sent home with at the very least 3 pieces of homework on a daily basis and why they were tested monthly for retention. We were told it was district curriculum and all kindergarten was like that now. My wife and I feel however, that it was more a result of a 1st year teacher not receiving any proper guidance from administrators or peers.
The snack situation was a definite problem that was allowed and encouraged by the teacher. Parents were responsible for bringing snack and we were told at the beginning of the year that healthy snacks are nice, but not to bother because they're often just thrown in the trash and kids only eat things that taste good. Did I also mention his teacher was about 100 lb's overweight?
It was never that my kid refused to learn to read - he was just burnt out. He just didn't rough ridin' care and that's not who my son is. It took 4 months of "un-schooling" to see that spark come back and he is again eager to learn to read. We're seeing an eye specialist to check out his tracking tomorrow, as he has no problem reading sight words & sounding out longer words, but when reading books, he tends to not finish sentences and loses his place. Which, for all of the trollers reading this, is completely normal for a 6 year old kid.
But anyway, the short answer to your question, we pulled him out because he hated school and was beginning to hate learning. My wife being a teacher on an extended sabbatical to be a stay at home mom who just happened to be working on her masters as a reading specialist afforded us the opportunity to provide a better education for our kid. Concerns over socialization were initially high on my list, but after this homeschooling experience, I realize this is hogwash. He spends TONS of time around kids his own age and is even relating to kids better than before. We live in a suburb of Wichita and we've found that Wichita, KS is the homeschooling capitol of the world. There are hundreds of kids his age we see on our weekly excursions and he's made friends with several of the other homeschool kids - we also live in a neighborhood with 3 other families with kids his own age that he plays with on a daily basis. Socialization is not a problem and anyone that tells you it is, isn't doing it right.
But anyway, I felt through all of this thread that we were on the same side. The reason you're not teaching anymore is likely the reason I hate public education and would rather my son and much younger daughter not be a part of it. Listening to your 5th grade curriculum, I know you understand EXACTLY how I feel about repetitious learning and how to properly educate someone. People may be taking offense to my position because it may seem I'm not on the teachers side. Quite the contrary. I'm not on government education's side. I have a feeling that if more teachers could let go of the career that they've had to buy into to get by, they would agree whole heartedly.
My question to you is this, When did not supporting government education become not supporting teachers? It reminds me of people that tell me that I don't support our troops and I'm not a patriot because I don't agree with the current war we're in.
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Well let me further my butthurt by dispelling a few more common misconceptions in public education. It does not cost LESS than private education. I'm not sure where someone got the figures for their cost per pupil but it's not ALWAYS less than the average public school. It's around $12,000 per student – while private education most often runs from 5000 – 14000, but I’ve seen as high as 25000 per student. Someone earlier posted the average as 8500 – and I would agree with that as that seems to be the median. I'm speaking to Kansas only - and it will vary by state.
Also - there are MANY different types of private schools. To generalize them all by saying they all have the same curriculum of public schools shows you don't know what the hell you're talking about. There are private schools that have no curriculum - it's completely open learning and the teacher is only there as a guide in a students exploration. There are private schools that build their entire curriculum around religion. There are private schools that follow the same core standards – but they don’t teach to standardized tests and the teachers have freedom to teach how they want in their class.
I’ll re-emphasize my point. There are FANTASTIC teachers in the public school system. My wife, Mother & Sister inlaw are, or at one point were, in the public school system and I would consider them each fantastic teachers. But they are not able to teach to their best ability because they’re FORCED to teach TO standardized test. Standardized test are only necessary because tax payers are demanding to see results. So we’ve created this pointless metric to track how well kids are learning so some politician can tout his education platform and justify his/her state taxes. This is the very reason I feel VERY STRONGLY that the government should stay the eff out of private education. Even vouchers are a horrible idea. Because it won’t be long before tax payers demand to see results in the private sector – when really it shouldn’t be any of their damned business. You want to fix public education. Stop mandating standardized test and allow teachers to teach lessons like Stellarcat was mentioning. If kids learned with a hands on approach and weren’t stuck with memorization and repetition methods, there would be no drop off during summer break and it would take a lifetime to forget those lessons – not 3 months.
in no way does private education offer all the services available in a public education setting. that is one thing people miss when they talk about privatising education. There are tons of social services, welfare services, and family counciling services only available to certain segments of the population (low SES) through the school house. A private school would have no interest whatsoever in accepted many students with the challenges that public schools are mandated to take care of. This is one of the biggest reason why school vouchers scare me so much. If any more money is stolen from public schools hundreds of thousands of kids would go without even more basic services. Hell just look at free food programs. There is something inherently wrong when the school is the place to provide a warm meal for a kid and its the highlight of their day.
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Well let me further my butthurt by dispelling a few more common misconceptions in public education. It does not cost LESS than private education. I'm not sure where someone got the figures for their cost per pupil but it's not ALWAYS less than the average public school. It's around $12,000 per student – while private education most often runs from 5000 – 14000, but I’ve seen as high as 25000 per student. Someone earlier posted the average as 8500 – and I would agree with that as that seems to be the median. I'm speaking to Kansas only - and it will vary by state.
Also - there are MANY different types of private schools. To generalize them all by saying they all have the same curriculum of public schools shows you don't know what the hell you're talking about. There are private schools that have no curriculum - it's completely open learning and the teacher is only there as a guide in a students exploration. There are private schools that build their entire curriculum around religion. There are private schools that follow the same core standards – but they don’t teach to standardized tests and the teachers have freedom to teach how they want in their class.
I’ll re-emphasize my point. There are FANTASTIC teachers in the public school system. My wife, Mother & Sister inlaw are, or at one point were, in the public school system and I would consider them each fantastic teachers. But they are not able to teach to their best ability because they’re FORCED to teach TO standardized test. Standardized test are only necessary because tax payers are demanding to see results. So we’ve created this pointless metric to track how well kids are learning so some politician can tout his education platform and justify his/her state taxes. This is the very reason I feel VERY STRONGLY that the government should stay the eff out of private education. Even vouchers are a horrible idea. Because it won’t be long before tax payers demand to see results in the private sector – when really it shouldn’t be any of their damned business. You want to fix public education. Stop mandating standardized test and allow teachers to teach lessons like Stellarcat was mentioning. If kids learned with a hands on approach and weren’t stuck with memorization and repetition methods, there would be no drop off during summer break and it would take a lifetime to forget those lessons – not 3 months.
in no way does private education offer all the services available in a public education setting. that is one thing people miss when they talk about privatising education. There are tons of social services, welfare services, and family counciling services only available to certain segments of the population (low SES) through the school house. A private school would have no interest whatsoever in accepted many students with the challenges that public schools are mandated to take care of. This is one of the biggest reason why school vouchers scare me so much. If any more money is stolen from public schools hundreds of thousands of kids would go without even more basic services. Hell just look at free food programs. There is something inherently wrong when the school is the place to provide a warm meal for a kid and its the highlight of their day.
AGREE ENTIRELY. I'll go back to my first statement. Government meddling in the private sector is NOT making public education any better. Don't go around screwing with private education and call it leveling the playing field.
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rd and I used to pick on the home schooled dorks who tried to play baseball with us. They sucked at baseball too.
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the chamber thinks you're a mean bully.
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It is the idea that 6 year olds should be able to dictate what they are learning that contributes to the frustration of teaching. While I agree that cramming test prep is a horrible way to teach, it drives me crazy that parents don't think that their kids should be expected to sit still, follow directions, and do what they are told. It is great that you provide learning opportunities outside of normal school activities, but did you really take your kid out of school because they were expecting him to sit still and learn to read?
I do expect my kid to sit still and follow directions. It becomes harder for a 6 year old to do that however when their morning snack is a little debbie cake filled with sugar and topped off with a pepsi. And no, We did not take our kid out juJu school because he couldn't sit still and learn to read. That's absurd and I question your reading comprehension if that's what you took from the last 7 pages of me describing our situation.
My reading comprehension is fine, thanks. I went back and reread, just to make sure that I didn't miss anything that you had said. I get that you have problems with teaching to the NCLB tests, and that your child wasn't getting enough attention with regard to enrichment because of the other children in the class. However, if I was teaching kindergarten, my first priority would be to teach the kid how to read. And yes, I would find it frustrating if I knew that the student was refusing to learn to read because it was all a parlor trick. I would have a hard time just letting that be okay and skipping reading instruction because the child would prefer to do something else.
I'm not sure where your child went to school, because I have never seen a classroom where snack cakes and Pepsi were given (or allowed) as snacks, or where a kindergarten teacher was cramming test prep...they don't have NCLB until third grade.
I'm glad that you can afford to homeschool, because a majority of people cannot. I'm sure my son would learn at an accelerated pace if I could devote all of my time to teaching him. I think school is more important, though, because he will learn more about interaction with others and expectations of society than I could ever teach him if I kept him home.
We agree on a lot regarding NCLB, and perhaps I overstepped a bit questioning you on your motives. Like I said, the fact that six year olds are able to determine what they will and will not do is a frustration of mine, but you have to do what you think is right for your own kid.
No, and sorry for attacking your reading comprehension; there's so much trolling going on towards little 'ol me, I figured the fishing was slow and you were throwing your bait out as well. Your assessment of our decision to pull my son is a bit off. It was primarily due to his sudden decrease in his passion for learning - which I attributed to his teacher being a 40 year old woman in her first year of teaching that just switched careers from nursing. We had several issues but the major ones involved the teacher using my son as a surrogate for a learning disabled ADD kid; because my son was the only person he would play with & not bite. That's not to say my kid was never disruptive, but during PT conferences, his teacher herself would defend my son saying he was never the instigator and everyone at the LD kids table constantly got into trouble. That didn't stop us from having serious consequences for him when he did get into trouble, but when we noticed a trend of him avoiding trouble on the days LD kid was not there (which was often) we asked our teacher to move desk around - which she did... for 2 days. She moved them back together because the LD kid would become un-managable when he couldn't sit next to his "only friend" I honestly feel like an ass for not wanting that kid to sit next to mine but he went through pre-school and he ended up at the top of the class by years end; he started out so eager and loving kindergarten and within 3 months was begging to not go to school. (I'm sure I'll catch flack from what's his name that said parents put their kids in private school to stay away from poor kids, but that simply isn't true) I'm aware that the testing had nothing to do with NCLB, but it didn't stop our teacher. We actually asked why in kindergarten, kids were sent home with at the very least 3 pieces of homework on a daily basis and why they were tested monthly for retention. We were told it was district curriculum and all kindergarten was like that now. My wife and I feel however, that it was more a result of a 1st year teacher not receiving any proper guidance from administrators or peers.
The snack situation was a definite problem that was allowed and encouraged by the teacher. Parents were responsible for bringing snack and we were told at the beginning of the year that healthy snacks are nice, but not to bother because they're often just thrown in the trash and kids only eat things that taste good. Did I also mention his teacher was about 100 lb's overweight?
It was never that my kid refused to learn to read - he was just burnt out. He just didn't rough ridin' care and that's not who my son is. It took 4 months of "un-schooling" to see that spark come back and he is again eager to learn to read. We're seeing an eye specialist to check out his tracking tomorrow, as he has no problem reading sight words & sounding out longer words, but when reading books, he tends to not finish sentences and loses his place. Which, for all of the trollers reading this, is completely normal for a 6 year old kid.
But anyway, the short answer to your question, we pulled him out because he hated school and was beginning to hate learning. My wife being a teacher on an extended sabbatical to be a stay at home mom who just happened to be working on her masters as a reading specialist afforded us the opportunity to provide a better education for our kid. Concerns over socialization were initially high on my list, but after this homeschooling experience, I realize this is hogwash. He spends TONS of time around kids his own age and is even relating to kids better than before. We live in a suburb of Wichita and we've found that Wichita, KS is the homeschooling capitol of the world. There are hundreds of kids his age we see on our weekly excursions and he's made friends with several of the other homeschool kids - we also live in a neighborhood with 3 other families with kids his own age that he plays with on a daily basis. Socialization is not a problem and anyone that tells you it is, isn't doing it right.
But anyway, I felt through all of this thread that we were on the same side. The reason you're not teaching anymore is likely the reason I hate public education and would rather my son and much younger daughter not be a part of it. Listening to your 5th grade curriculum, I know you understand EXACTLY how I feel about repetitious learning and how to properly educate someone. People may be taking offense to my position because it may seem I'm not on the teachers side. Quite the contrary. I'm not on government education's side. I have a feeling that if more teachers could let go of the career that they've had to buy into to get by, they would agree whole heartedly.
My question to you is this, When did not supporting government education become not supporting teachers? It reminds me of people that tell me that I don't support our troops and I'm not a patriot because I don't agree with the current war we're in.
Sounds like your son had a crappy teacher. It sucks that his first school experience was poor.
I don't think that you have to approve of the education system to support teachers. I think education should be handled at the state level, though with Brownback, Kansas would be screwed.
Oh, and homework in elementary school is stupid, especially in kindergarten.
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Anyplace new in Salina that'll be a good spot for a late breakfast / early lunch on Monday?
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in no way does private education offer all the services available in a public education setting. that is one thing people miss when they talk about privatising education. There are tons of social services, welfare services, and family counciling services only available to certain segments of the population (low SES) through the school house. A private school would have no interest whatsoever in accepted many students with the challenges that public schools are mandated to take care of. This is one of the biggest reason why school vouchers scare me so much. If any more money is stolen from public schools hundreds of thousands of kids would go without even more basic services. Hell just look at free food programs. There is something inherently wrong when the school is the place to provide a warm meal for a kid and its the highlight of their day.
Exactly. Private schools don't have the special education, speech, OT services available, not are they required to provide those services at the same level as public schools.
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I have a hard time imagining a kindergartner being "burnt out" on learning.
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Anyplace new in Salina that'll be a good spot for a late breakfast / early lunch on Monday?
Not really. I never stray from Bogey's or La Casita when I eat in Salina.
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I have a hard time imagining a kindergartner being "burnt out" on learning.
as did I, which is what caused such a tremendous re-evaluation of our education ideals. 1 year ago, I would have NEVER considered homeschooling. FTR, going back to public schooling has never and will never be ruled out with either of our kids.
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Anyplace new in Salina that'll be a good spot for a late breakfast / early lunch on Monday?
Not really. I never stray from Bogey's or La Casita when I eat in Salina.
Maybe I'll call up Scheme this weekend and see how much it would cost me to have them open up on Monday.
10 Reviews from everyone and 2 scores without reviews
A Google User reviewed 3 months ago
Overall 0 / 3
Extremely expensive. Terrible hours. Bad Service. Good pizza. They serve you with styrofoam plates and plastic utensils. $40 for a pizza served with STYROFOAM. F***ing seriously?
Liked: Pizza, Crust
Disliked: Service
Helpful? Yes No
A Google User reviewed 6 months ago
Overall 0 / 3
Food takes FOREVER, they are definietly stuck on themselves. I had to go up and ask for refills, and they seemed like they were put out for me asking. Probably won't go back. Good music but not worth the price.
Liked: Food, Atmosphere
Disliked: Service, Value
Helpful? Yes No
A Google User reviewed 9 months ago
Overall 0 / 3
Expensive. Slow. Dark. Expensive. Nearly non-existent service. Food's not bad, but $25 more than a pizza should ever cost.
Liked: Food
Disliked: Service, Atmosphere, Value
Helpful? Yes No
A Google User reviewed 5 months ago
Overall 3 / 3
Great Pizza. Original atmosphere. Pizza does probably cost $5 to $10 more than it should. Drink prices are reasonable though. If you want a cheap pizza, go get a totino's at the grocery store.
Liked: Pizza, Crust
Helpful? Yes No
A Google User reviewed 8 months ago
Overall 0 / 3
1 hr and no food. We left and heard they banned us. Great because I am not coming back. A few of our group stayed and it was 1.5 hr until food arrived and they blamed them because they ordered too much. Best of luck. With service like that your going to need it.
Helpful? Yes No
A Google User reviewed 7 months ago
Overall 0 / 3
One type specialty pizza offered, which costs money to take items off when it is $30 to begin with. Cheese pizza costs 3 dollars per additional topping. Music is horrible and way too loud.
Disliked: Atmosphere
Helpful? Yes No
A Google User reviewed 5 months ago
Overall 3 / 3
Slow but worth the wait. Love this place
Liked: Pizza, Crust
Disliked: Service
Helpful? Yes No
A Google User reviewed 4 years ago
Overall 3 / 3
You have to get there on the weekends cause that is when they are open and the pizza is expensive but worth it. Kind of like UNO's if your familar with that pizza
Helpful? Yes No
A Google User reviewed 8 months ago
Overall 0 / 3
Disliked: Food, Slow service, uninterested waitress, NOT kid friendly
Helpful? Yes No
A Google User reviewed 9 months ago
Overall 3 / 3
Liked: Food, Service, Atmosphere, Value, Pizza, Crust
Helpful? Yes No
:love:
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:love:
I don't think the Scheme is worth the wait anyway.
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:love:
I don't think the Scheme is worth the wait anyway.
I think you're Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). Public school or private school?
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:love:
I don't think the Scheme is worth the wait anyway.
I think you're Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). Public school or private school?
:grin:
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Trim,
If you love Kites you will dig Speakeasy. Great burgers, thank me later.
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I've been looking for an UNO's knockoff in Salina. :drool:
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Trim,
If you love Kites you will dig Speakeasy. Great burgers, thank me later.
Ew.
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Trim,
If you love Kites you will dig Speakeasy. Great burgers, thank me later.
Ew.
I miss the days of JC's, but Speakeasy isn't a terrible replacement. It's better than a La Casita knock-off.
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Went to speakeasy over Christmas break with three other guys, we sat down and all ordered waters. 15 minutes later we got the waters. 25 minutes still no one had taken our order so we just left. And the whole time the place was maybe 1/4 full. I don't plan on going back.
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this thread has taken a turn for the better. :driving:
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Trim,
If you love Kites you will dig Speakeasy. Great burgers, thank me later.
Ew.
I miss the days of JC's, but Speakeasy isn't a terrible replacement. It's better than a La Casita knock-off.
True story: the public school teacher I'll be lunchpak'n with used to work at JC's.
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Trim,
If you love Kites you will dig Speakeasy. Great burgers, thank me later.
Ew.
I miss the days of JC's, but Speakeasy isn't a terrible replacement. It's better than a La Casita knock-off.
True story: the public school teacher I'll be lunchpak'n with used to work at JC's.
I grew up a few blocks from JC's. Went there all the time. I still drink out of big JC's handled cups when I go back to my parents house.
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Trim,
If you love Kites you will dig Speakeasy. Great burgers, thank me later.
Ew.
I miss the days of JC's, but Speakeasy isn't a terrible replacement. It's better than a La Casita knock-off.
True story: the public school teacher I'll be lunchpak'n with used to work at JC's.
I grew up a few blocks from JC's. Went there all the time. I still drink out of big JC's handled cups when I go back to my parents house.
Donate said cups for FattyFest.