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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Jerome Tang Coaches Kansas State Basketball => Topic started by: Kat Kid on January 22, 2012, 05:29:24 PM
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Eskie Joe's
Angelito has an assassin's soul. Angel took the lead early with a 3 to tie it, a steal and then a layup. 5 points in a flurry. He shows ability in a flash. He creates opportunities from nothing. His heat check three was a thing of beauty. He is everything that our other guards are not. He has imagination and courage and flair. There will be times when these attributes serve to destroy and not create, and we have already seen these times, but more importantly he has "it." He has the swag, he has the cojones, he will not be denied. When Angel stepped to the line with the game still balancing precariously on his shoulders. His eyes looked tired, sunken, like a zombie from Thriller. But they did not blink and they did not show one ounce of doubt. He was looking through the hoop and staring down the death rattle of Oklahoma State's curse. He is at his best when there is chaos, the other point has speed up and he can sag in to passing lanes. Then he's out on the break. That is becoming a weapon. Instead of the 3-2 I think the trap could develop in to our finishing move. We need something to put the foot on the throat of opponents once we get in to our run.
Jamar owned the paint. Jamar wanted this one. 12 boards. Got to the line, frustrated the opposition, played great basketball. He had a lot of other people's work to do and he stepped up to the occasion. There's something about this team that allows Jamar to shine when the chips are down. I wouldn't have thought that would be where he'd be. He is so much more comfortable when he is not the leader, when it doesn't have to be all about him. He lives to work hard, but he doesn't want the world on his shoulders. Rodney's development has had knock-on effects I couldn't have imagined.
You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might just find, you get what you need Frankites Unite! Who knows what the deal is with JO. Some say this, others that. I'm not ITK, never have been, doubt I ever will unless Fitz gets hauled off and goEMAW starts rubbing shoulders with the likes of Ashley Dunkak, Austin Meek, Cole Manbeck and Rob Cassidy. As it stands, speculation is all we have and largely it is beside the point. I think Frank is aware that the leadership on the team is precarious. And Frank concerns himself with leadership. For as much flailing around as Frank does on the sidelines, he needs players to lead. To this end, I believe Frank is protective of what Rodney has done, the time he's invested in Jamar and Will and Angel and the rest of the team. This war is not won and there is a lot of work to do, but I think the path is being paved. On this topic, there has been a lot of talk about sausages. I'm not one to turn down a good food analogy, but I don't know if it is an apt comparison. Often times, people are judge the the team before it is complete. It is not a tired cliche to say that Frank's priority is success in the NCAA tournament. College Basketball is not an odd sport, it has a playoff at the end of the season that determines the champion. I think what causes all of our heartburn is a do or die college football mentality to every game. It serves the crowd well in the Octagon of Doom, but I don't think it serves our psyche's too well. That may just be our cross to bear, but being aware of it helps.
Guards The guards boarded so hard and were tough. Will was not at his best and Martavious and Angel stepped up. It is heartening to see the team function like this. Frank has said that he does not and will not respect "roles" on the team. This team is a swiss army knife and Frank has spent most of the year pulling out the different pieces. I think he knows where they all are and Tay is an important piece. Tay played the second most minutes and he was a calming influence. Really good game for him. 6 boards too. Good for him. Will had 8 and 5, not bad but he will bounce back with his shot.
AAAAAAAADRIAAAN! and vic. BIG MAN ON THE BOARDS! I think Frank may have brainwashed Diaz into believing that he really is playing his brother every game. Alternate theory: maybe Frank has set up some sort of dark room like in Saw deep within Bramlage where he's holding JO.....and only Diaz and Vic playing solid minutes can save him. Well, I'm on the edge of my seat Frank. Bravo! 38 minutes for the disabled duo and it was digestible, but probably not very healthy for you (sausage analogy back in play!).
Rodney is so Rodney right now Man. Sometimes I just wait for him to flash a million dollar smile and melt hearts. If you could take Rodney and Shane and make a baby. You'd have one hell of a hero, dropping panties and treys all over creation. But Rodney's terrified face whenever he dunks is reward enough. There is no sense being greedy. He did something that Jacob did not do, that Beasley did not do, that Cartier did not do, that Gilson DeJesus did not do. I've expected great things from Rodney and he is rewarding us. Enjoy this cat fans. Enjoy every second of it.
Bitter Buffy's
The refs were awful. Anytime you have two technicals in a game without a physical altercation to be spoken of, the referees have lost control of the game. Full stop. I didn't see what shenanigans Travis was up to, but unless he literally asked for it, it was probably unwarranted. As for Gip? That was the weakest T I've seen in a long while. The foul was a bad call too. What a double whammy. Absurd.
The Jet just crashed at the airshow. He is out of control almost all the time he's on the floor. The defense is not good, but that has been discussed ad nauseam, the problem is his offense is not producing right now. Where the hell is Nino?
Nino is the toothpick in the swiss army knife Frank lost him.
Shane is completely anonymous. How is it possible? 9 minutes of sadness.
Can't do GOATS UP/GOATS DOWN! WE'RE JUST RUNNIN' TOO GOOD RIGHT NOW!
ALL-TIME LOW GOAT!
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Nino is injured.
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Nino is injured.
yup.
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I was very critical of Sprads yesterday in chat. But then Frank praises his defense on pigboy. OK, he fights through screens, but can't you some shots up against that porcine midget.
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bravo. very well-done. :thumbs:
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Is watson dead? Might prefer his corpse to vic. Bet pitino watches our games and spanks it to angel, can't judge him.
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BB: Gooch has not posted a pak report.
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thank you for this tortuga. I was getting ready to complain about it being due early this morning but it was worth the wait.
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people really need to know the injury report. gosh.
good stuff.
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Great stuff, as always.
I agree on Will, at some point the offense has to come back around. He did play well on defense and hit some 2nd half FTs. The late TO was the most disappointing play of his afternoon.
I will at least give Southy credit for his nice pass in the 2nd half, otherwise an uneventful performance.
Like you, I will always appreciate those types of Jamar games. Always.
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The late TO was the most disappointing play of his afternoon.
yes.
good work, tortuga.
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Tortuga, would this put you fully onboard the #teamangel train?
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Wish _Fan did these things. do the Mods just not pay well enough or does Tort just own the rights? (no offense 'Tuga, it was a serviceable report, just not _Fan-level stuff.)
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Wish _Fan did these things. do the Mods just not pay well enough or does Tort just own the rights? (no offense 'Tuga, it was a serviceable report, just not _Fan-level stuff.)
Tortuga is really, really good at these, and very HBBIQ.
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Tortuga is really, really good at these, and very HBBIQ.
Agreed. Tortuga is a really good writer.
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Wish _Fan did these things. do the Mods just not pay well enough or does Tort just own the rights? (no offense 'Tuga, it was a serviceable report, just not _Fan-level stuff.)
Honestly, these are like me operating at maximum capacity. If _Fan or someone else gave me a breather I'd be thrilled.
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Nice work Tort, but this was another great oppy for GOATS UP SHANE.
0 boards, a horrible turnover, just 2 assists (not enough when you do nothing else) and 0 pts. Add that to some pretty bad D, and his 'goat can't get much higher right now.
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Nice work Tort, but this was another great oppy for GOATS UP SHANE.
0 boards, a horrible turnover, just 2 assists (not enough when you do nothing else) and 0 pts. Add that to some pretty bad D, and his 'goat can't get much higher right now.
I'm being very generous.
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Nice work Tort, but this was another great oppy for GOATS UP SHANE.
0 boards, a horrible turnover, just 2 assists (not enough when you do nothing else) and 0 pts. Add that to some pretty bad D, and his 'goat can't get much higher right now.
I'm being very generous.
I can appreciate that. I was unnaturally happy after the win...way better than a home win over UT.
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I was waiting for this hoping you'd light Will up, horribly disappointed. I don't know what his issue is or why Frank continues to shelter him. I thought Frank is just like Will's dad and he could handle Frank? He is the only player of consequence that has played for Frank for more than a year that didn't either get benched or roasted in a post game interview, why is that? My problem with him before was that he didn't make things happen, he was very close to a non-descript entity. He's crossed over to hurting the team, he is not doing the things he did did well before and he is making losing plays. Yes, the defense on Paige was good, very good, but it was a team effort. Additionally, Keaton Paige isn't the type of player that a high level guard should be patted on the back for being held to 17. There isn't a sane person in the world that would take Paige over Spradling, yet we're going to wet ourselves over Paige scoring 17.
Sorry but Frank needs to do something, I'm not going to hit the panic button yet but something is clearly wrong with Will.
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I'm not going to hit the panic button yet but something is clearly wrong with Will.
I'm not going to hit the panic button yet but something is clearly wrong with Rodney.
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I was waiting for this hoping you'd light Will up, horribly disappointed. I don't know what his issue is or why Frank continues to shelter him. I thought Frank is just like Will's dad and he could handle Frank? He is the only player of consequence that has played for Frank for more than a year that didn't either get benched or roasted in a post game interview, why is that? My problem with him before was that he didn't make things happen, he was very close to a non-descript entity. He's crossed over to hurting the team, he is not doing the things he did did well before and he is making losing plays. Yes, the defense on Paige was good, very good, but it was a team effort. Additionally, Keaton Paige isn't the type of player that a high level guard should be patted on the back for being held to 17. There isn't a sane person in the world that would take Paige over Spradling, yet we're going to wet ourselves over Paige scoring 17.
Sorry but Frank needs to do something, I'm not going to hit the panic button yet but something is clearly wrong with Will.
Something's wrong with:
-Will
-JO
-Shane
These guys haven't adjusted well to their new roles I guess?
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I'm not going to hit the panic button yet but something is clearly wrong with Will.
I'm not going to hit the panic button yet but something is clearly wrong with Rodney.
Difference being that Rodney wasn't meeting the expectations people had for him, Will is absolutely hurting us right now.
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I was waiting for this hoping you'd light Will up, horribly disappointed. I don't know what his issue is or why Frank continues to shelter him. I thought Frank is just like Will's dad and he could handle Frank? He is the only player of consequence that has played for Frank for more than a year that didn't either get benched or roasted in a post game interview, why is that? My problem with him before was that he didn't make things happen, he was very close to a non-descript entity. He's crossed over to hurting the team, he is not doing the things he did did well before and he is making losing plays. Yes, the defense on Paige was good, very good, but it was a team effort. Additionally, Keaton Paige isn't the type of player that a high level guard should be patted on the back for being held to 17. There isn't a sane person in the world that would take Paige over Spradling, yet we're going to wet ourselves over Paige scoring 17.
Sorry but Frank needs to do something, I'm not going to hit the panic button yet but something is clearly wrong with Will.
Something's wrong with:
-Will
-JO
-Shane
These guys haven't adjusted well to their new roles I guess?
Nothing wrong with JO and I don't notice a huge change with Shane. His mistakes seem to be from being more aggressive, I don't have a huge problem with this.
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I'm not going to hit the panic button yet but something is clearly wrong with Will.
I'm not going to hit the panic button yet but something is clearly wrong with Rodney.
Difference being that Rodney wasn't meeting the expectations people had for him, Will is absolutely hurting us right now.
Fair enough.
One more thing: you said Will is the only player Frank has never benched or publicly called out...I don't recall Rodney ever getting benched or chastised in postgames either. A minor quibble.
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MIR- what do you mean nothing's wrong with JO? If him being a TC isn't enough, he was committing terrible off ball fouls and having mental lapses in the middle of games.
And clearly Shane is a different player today then he was all of last year. I remember Shane as a hustling defensive artist, shutting down both Burks and Higgins at Colorado last year. Shane seems to be playing way too relaxed and without urgency. He's not responding to Frank's challenge and his minutes are dwindling.
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I was waiting for this hoping you'd light Will up, horribly disappointed. I don't know what his issue is or why Frank continues to shelter him. I thought Frank is just like Will's dad and he could handle Frank? He is the only player of consequence that has played for Frank for more than a year that didn't either get benched or roasted in a post game interview, why is that? My problem with him before was that he didn't make things happen, he was very close to a non-descript entity. He's crossed over to hurting the team, he is not doing the things he did did well before and he is making losing plays. Yes, the defense on Paige was good, very good, but it was a team effort. Additionally, Keaton Paige isn't the type of player that a high level guard should be patted on the back for being held to 17. There isn't a sane person in the world that would take Paige over Spradling, yet we're going to wet ourselves over Paige scoring 17.
Sorry but Frank needs to do something, I'm not going to hit the panic button yet but something is clearly wrong with Will.
I am disappointed in Will. I also think he is just struggling through a patch. Look at his conference stats. He is playing a ton of minutes, he is not turning the ball over more than our other ball handlers, he's scrapping through a tough shooting/offensive stretch and rebounding/playing decent D against players that are not going to out-quick him to the rim. I mean I'm just not sure what you want. I kind of agree with what you're saying about him not getting Frank'd, but then again, he played fewer than his normal minutes. We've seen Shane Southwell play the point because he was sick of Will @OU. I don't think he gives Frank a lot of ammo because he listens and he does not make a ton of mistakes. Frank yells at him, the difference is he is usually in the game. With Will I think Frank has run into a lack of alternatives that are less frustrating for him than Will. I never got too in love with Will so Sprads is fine by me. When I think about Clent Stewart I feel like we're getting the best of this.
I agree with what you are saying about Page, but then again Will would essentially be Page if our team sucked. And someone has to score their points. They chucked 3's all day to no avail, Sprads kept a slow white guy in front of him. Fine. He's going to struggle against the Taylors/Kabongos/Thomas' of the world, those are facts of life. I just don't see the point in breaking him down for it.
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I was waiting for this hoping you'd light Will up, horribly disappointed. I don't know what his issue is or why Frank continues to shelter him. I thought Frank is just like Will's dad and he could handle Frank? He is the only player of consequence that has played for Frank for more than a year that didn't either get benched or roasted in a post game interview, why is that? My problem with him before was that he didn't make things happen, he was very close to a non-descript entity. He's crossed over to hurting the team, he is not doing the things he did did well before and he is making losing plays. Yes, the defense on Paige was good, very good, but it was a team effort. Additionally, Keaton Paige isn't the type of player that a high level guard should be patted on the back for being held to 17. There isn't a sane person in the world that would take Paige over Spradling, yet we're going to wet ourselves over Paige scoring 17.
Sorry but Frank needs to do something, I'm not going to hit the panic button yet but something is clearly wrong with Will.
I am disappointed in Will. I also think he is just struggling through a patch. Look at his conference stats. He is playing a ton of minutes, he is not turning the ball over more than our other ball handlers, he's scrapping through a tough shooting/offensive stretch and rebounding/playing decent D against players that are not going to out-quick him to the rim. I mean I'm just not sure what you want. I kind of agree with what you're saying about him not getting Frank'd, but then again, he played fewer than his normal minutes. We've seen Shane Southwell play the point because he was sick of Will @OU. I don't think he gives Frank a lot of ammo because he listens and he does not make a ton of mistakes. Frank yells at him, the difference is he is usually in the game. With Will I think Frank has run into a lack of alternatives that are less frustrating for him than Will. I never got too in love with Will so Sprads is fine by me. When I think about Clent Stewart I feel like we're getting the best of this.
I agree with what you are saying about Page, but then again Will would essentially be Page if our team sucked. And someone has to score their points. They chucked 3's all day to no avail, Sprads kept a slow white guy in front of him. Fine. He's going to struggle against the Taylors/Kabongos/Thomas' of the world, those are facts of life. I just don't see the point in breaking him down for it.
Its clear the two guys Frank trusts the most are McGruder and Sprads. He let McGrud's work through his offensive funk this year and its pretty clear that he's going to do the same with Will. Will's play lately has been frustrating at times, especially the late TO yesterday, but Frank will let him work through it and I'm good with that.
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Of course Frank will let Will work through it...he has no alternative. I love 'Tay, but...no, he's not a PG alternative.
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Of course Frank will let Will work through it...he has no alternative. I love 'Tay, but...no, he's not a PG alternative.
With Angel at PG Frank has more options.
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Of course Frank will let Will work through it...he has no alternative. I love 'Tay, but...no, he's not a PG alternative.
With Angel at PG Frank has more options.
Angel got 22 minutes in Stillwater, I think that's about his max for this season. Will still got 24.
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Of course Frank will let Will work through it...he has no alternative. I love 'Tay, but...no, he's not a PG alternative.
With Angel at PG Frank has more options.
Angel got 22 minutes in Stillwater, I think that's about his max for this season. Will still got 24.
His max is now directly correlated to his foul trouble. Angel has earned his time.
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Sprads kept a slow white guy in front of him.
page isn't slow. i mean, maybe he's slow for a 5'8" d1 bball player, i dunno, i haven't seen enough of them to be able to compare. but if you compare him to normal-sized d1 pgs, then he isn't slow.
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I was waiting for this hoping you'd light Will up, horribly disappointed. I don't know what his issue is or why Frank continues to shelter him. I thought Frank is just like Will's dad and he could handle Frank? He is the only player of consequence that has played for Frank for more than a year that didn't either get benched or roasted in a post game interview, why is that? My problem with him before was that he didn't make things happen, he was very close to a non-descript entity. He's crossed over to hurting the team, he is not doing the things he did did well before and he is making losing plays. Yes, the defense on Paige was good, very good, but it was a team effort. Additionally, Keaton Paige isn't the type of player that a high level guard should be patted on the back for being held to 17. There isn't a sane person in the world that would take Paige over Spradling, yet we're going to wet ourselves over Paige scoring 17.
Sorry but Frank needs to do something, I'm not going to hit the panic button yet but something is clearly wrong with Will.
I am disappointed in Will. I also think he is just struggling through a patch. Look at his conference stats. He is playing a ton of minutes, he is not turning the ball over more than our other ball handlers, he's scrapping through a tough shooting/offensive stretch and rebounding/playing decent D against players that are not going to out-quick him to the rim. I mean I'm just not sure what you want. I kind of agree with what you're saying about him not getting Frank'd, but then again, he played fewer than his normal minutes. We've seen Shane Southwell play the point because he was sick of Will @OU. I don't think he gives Frank a lot of ammo because he listens and he does not make a ton of mistakes. Frank yells at him, the difference is he is usually in the game. With Will I think Frank has run into a lack of alternatives that are less frustrating for him than Will. I never got too in love with Will so Sprads is fine by me. When I think about Clent Stewart I feel like we're getting the best of this.
I agree with what you are saying about Page, but then again Will would essentially be Page if our team sucked. And someone has to score their points. They chucked 3's all day to no avail, Sprads kept a slow white guy in front of him. Fine. He's going to struggle against the Taylors/Kabongos/Thomas' of the world, those are facts of life. I just don't see the point in breaking him down for it.
His minutes are down at times because he's been in foul trouble since conference play started. His conference numbers are really really bad.
9.0 PPG, 15-49 from the field good for a robust 30.6%, 15-20 from the stripe but he had two games in which he played 33 & 32 minutes and didn't attempt a FT we lost both games, 9-29 from the 3 point line 31%, 16 turnovers only 18 assists, he has 21 fouls to put 21 fouls in perspective its one less than Jamar.
No spinning those numbers they are awful by any standard. His assist-to-turnover ratio is horrid considering what he is asked to do. It was fun to mock Clent but even as a sophomore he was a much better Will than Will. I liked him better when he was just a ball mover not willing to do anything.
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Of course Frank will let Will work through it...he has no alternative. I love 'Tay, but...no, he's not a PG alternative.
With Angel at PG Frank has more options.
Angel got 22 minutes in Stillwater, I think that's about his max for this season. Will still got 24.
His max is now directly correlated to his foul trouble. Angel has earned his time.
Will should be the first guard off of the bench and barely that. Jones is a better scoring option but he can't guard anyone and still gets lost on offense.
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Will should be the first guard off of the bench and barely that. Jones is a better scoring option but he can't guard anyone and still gets lost on offense.
no, ar-t, spradling, mcgruder. spradling would be better at the 2. better than irving.
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yeah, I like spradling at the two. really frees up his offense.
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Will should be the first guard off of the bench and barely that. Jones is a better scoring option but he can't guard anyone and still gets lost on offense.
no, ar-t, spradling, mcgruder. spradling would be better at the 2. better than irving.
That's where he's been the last two games and he's been progressively worse.
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That's where he's been the last two games and he's been progressively worse.
some minutes, most of his minutes are still at the nominal point with ar-t on the bench. spradling played 35 against ut, ar-t 15. spradling 24, ar-t 22 @ osu.
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Jesus Christ, Will is fine.
And Frank called out McGruder after the UNLV game last year. Basically called him a pussy for leaving the game when he lost a tooth in a way only Frank can.
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I think you may want to look at the a/to numbers for the rest or our guards and then revisit why spradling is playing. He is going to play his way out of the shooting or we're in troubs. As for Clent, he was better as a soph than a Senior. I'll wait unil at least March to compare season stats, but there is no way I'm taking Clent over Will.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk
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does jones suck on defense? seemed to play better d than i thought he would.
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Will should be the first guard off of the bench and barely that. Jones is a better scoring option but he can't guard anyone and still gets lost on offense.
no, ar-t, spradling, mcgruder. spradling would be better at the 2. better than irving.
That's where he's been the last two games and he's been progressively worse.
I am equating your reaction to Will's struggles to my reaction to the losses to BU and OU. JMHO.
Maybe not quite the same, but I will agree that much of my reaction to BU/OU was over the top and unnecessary.
Just sayin.
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Will should be the first guard off of the bench and barely that. Jones is a better scoring option but he can't guard anyone and still gets lost on offense.
no, ar-t, spradling, mcgruder. spradling would be better at the 2. better than irving.
That's where he's been the last two games and he's been progressively worse.
I will agree that much of my reaction to BU/OU was over the top and unnecessary.
Yes. I was very embarrassed for you.
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Will should be the first guard off of the bench and barely that. Jones is a better scoring option but he can't guard anyone and still gets lost on offense.
no, ar-t, spradling, mcgruder. spradling would be better at the 2. better than irving.
That's where he's been the last two games and he's been progressively worse.
I will agree that much of my reaction to BU/OU was over the top and unnecessary.
Yes. I was very embarrassed for you.
I'm only human, you know?
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does jones suck on defense? seemed to play better d than i thought he would.
I think Jones is Frank's best JUCO recruit as far as buying in, not that means a lot.
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I think Will has a real problem against good on the ball D. I am afraid the book on him is out and he is going to have to prove it wrong.
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I think Will has a real problem against good on the ball D. I am afraid the book on him is out and he is going to have to prove it wrong.
his role has changed. moving to the point has limited his offense. mcorebs is getting a lot of the open shots that will got last year.
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I think Will has a real problem against good on the ball D. I am afraid the book on him is out and he is going to have to prove it wrong.
his role has changed. moving to the point has limited his offense. mcorebs is getting a lot of the open shots that will got last year.
Yes, and right now he's missing a lot of good open shots. I have confidence that things will even out and he'll start hitting shots again. So far in his career his offensive rating is 114-115 and he's a 38% 3-pt shooter. I don't think that's his ceiling and his game adjusts he'll get better.
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i'm hoping #teamangel can carry more of the load at the 1 and allow will to play more 2, with mcorebs at the 3 and jamar/JO/Gipson/Diaz sharing minutes b/w the 4/5.
i think ultimately though will will always be limited offensively because his lack of quickness and handles. i don't ever see him doing more than just knocking down a higher percentage of the shots that he's missing today.
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I think Will has a real problem against good on the ball D. I am afraid the book on him is out and he is going to have to prove it wrong.
his role has changed. moving to the point has limited his offense. mcorebs is getting a lot of the open shots that will got last year.
Yes, and right now he's missing a lot of good open shots. I have confidence that things will even out and he'll start hitting shots again. So far in his career his offensive rating is 114-115 and he's a 38% 3-pt shooter. I don't think that's his ceiling and his game adjusts he'll get better.
Also, it will help when Angel is full-time point. He can create the shots from the point, and it will leave Sprads open to run around screens and whatnot.
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Jesus Christ, Will is fine.
lol, no he isn't. I'll buy that he's going to be fine, but he's far from fine right now.
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Will should be the first guard off of the bench and barely that. Jones is a better scoring option but he can't guard anyone and still gets lost on offense.
no, ar-t, spradling, mcgruder. spradling would be better at the 2. better than irving.
That's where he's been the last two games and he's been progressively worse.
I am equating your reaction to Will's struggles to my reaction to the losses to BU and OU. JMHO.
Maybe not quite the same, but I will agree that much of my reaction to BU/OU was over the top and unnecessary.
Just sayin.
What's my reaction? I'm simply pointing out that Will has been brutal since conference play has began, the numbers don't lie; raw stats, advanced stats, eye test, its all :frown: That turnover up top and then the subsequent foul on the dunk during OSUs late run was as bad of a play I've ever seen and that's supposed to be from Mr. Intangibles. I really don't understand why everyone is just willing to give him a pass when he's a starter who has been awful for a 6 game stretch. He's been the worst contributor on the team since conference play started yet seems to be immune from Frankisms and a consistent level of criticism from GoEMAWers.
The situation seems inconsistent bordering on bizarre to me.
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IT'S BECAUSE HE'S WHITE
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And Frank called out McGruder after the UNLV game last year. Basically called him a pussy for leaving the game when he lost a tooth in a way only Frank can.
Totally forgot about that, thanks. That was hilarious.
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What's my reaction? I'm simply pointing out that Will has been brutal since conference play has began, the numbers don't lie; raw stats, advanced stats, eye test, its all :frown: That turnover up top and then the subsequent foul on the dunk during OSUs late run was as bad of a play I've ever seen and that's supposed to be from Mr. Intangibles. I really don't understand why everyone is just willing to give him a pass when he's a starter who has been awful for a 6 game stretch. He's been the worst contributor on the team since conference play started yet seems to be immune from Frankisms and a consistent level of criticism from GoEMAWers.
The situation seems inconsistent bordering on bizarre to me.
You said this:
My problem with him before was that he didn't make things happen, he was very close to a non-descript entity. He's crossed over to hurting the team, he is not doing the things he did did well before and he is making losing plays.
I agree that Will has not played well, but I think you are going to far in saying he has crossed over to hurting (overall)( his team. I won't disagree that he has made his fair share of mistakes and that OSU (in many ways) was his worst game, but I still think most of the time he has still be steady; he just isn't hitting shots. I'm not willing to give him a free pass and I was disappointed in how he played and has played in Big 12 play, but I don't think he has played as bad as you are making it out to be. And I think he'll work through it and have a good Big 12 season, much better than he has shown so far. I think he's shown enough in his career to earn Frank's (and ours) patience.
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How much of this is because people are expecting Will to be more than he should be. In my opinion, he shouldn't be anything more than a guy who plays around the 3 point line waiting on kick outs from a penetrating guard. His defense is a plus, but I don't think anyone should be expecting him to ever be able to create his own shot.
That said, he isn't hitting his shots consistently enough to be considered that guy, at this point.
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What is Will's Orating for conf games only? I have it at 102.6, but I think my calculations might be off. If that is correct even though he has been subpar for himself he hasn't been horrible offensively.
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What is Will's Orating for conf games only? I have it at 102.6, but I think my calculations might be off. If that is correct even though he has been subpar for himself he hasn't been horrible offensively.
It's 95.5.
Was 116.4 in P66 play last year.
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What is Will's Orating for conf games only? I have it at 102.6, but I think my calculations might be off. If that is correct even though he has been subpar for himself he hasn't been horrible offensively.
It's 95.5.
Was 116.4 in P66 play last year.
I figured I was wrong. I just added each games rating then divided by 6 because I couldn't find it anywhere. Figured the %of minutes or something might have thrown it off.
95.5 is pretty bad.
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What is Will's Orating for conf games only? I have it at 102.6, but I think my calculations might be off. If that is correct even though he has been subpar for himself he hasn't been horrible offensively.
95.5, keyed by an eFG% of only 39.7.
I have confidence he will improve because he was solid last year in Big 12 play, granted in a different role. In conference games only he had an OffRating of 116.4 and eFG% of 50.6. That was at 54% minutes, this year he's at 79.1% minutes played.
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What is Will's Orating for conf games only? I have it at 102.6, but I think my calculations might be off. If that is correct even though he has been subpar for himself he hasn't been horrible offensively.
95.5, keyed by an eFG% of only 39.7.
I have confidence he will improve because he was solid last year in Big 12 play, granted in a different role. In conference games only he had an OffRating of 116.4 and eFG% of 50.6. That was at 54% minutes, this year he's at 79.1% minutes played.
What were his percentages of playing time playing PG vs. SG? Obviously it is also more difficult being responsible for more of the scoring load, and playing more minutes. I don't the effects of those things are what is driving this though. I think he just isn't making shots. Hell, he's only shooting 75% from the line. His shooting touch will come around.
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What is Will's Orating for conf games only? I have it at 102.6, but I think my calculations might be off. If that is correct even though he has been subpar for himself he hasn't been horrible offensively.
95.5, keyed by an eFG% of only 39.7.
I have confidence he will improve because he was solid last year in Big 12 play, granted in a different role. In conference games only he had an OffRating of 116.4 and eFG% of 50.6. That was at 54% minutes, this year he's at 79.1% minutes played.
What were his percentages of playing time playing PG vs. SG? Obviously it is also more difficult being responsible for more of the scoring load, and playing more minutes. I don't the effects of those things are what is driving this though. I think he just isn't making shots. Hell, he's only shooting 75% from the line. His shooting touch will come around.
Agree. I was extremely ticked with the late TO, but I'm fine with lettting Will play through it. Plus, Frank took him out after that TO, but then made sure he got him back in at the next dead ball. I'm fine with that.
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What is Will's Orating for conf games only? I have it at 102.6, but I think my calculations might be off. If that is correct even though he has been subpar for himself he hasn't been horrible offensively.
95.5, keyed by an eFG% of only 39.7.
I have confidence he will improve because he was solid last year in Big 12 play, granted in a different role. In conference games only he had an OffRating of 116.4 and eFG% of 50.6. That was at 54% minutes, this year he's at 79.1% minutes played.
lol u r so slow _F.
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What is Will's Orating for conf games only? I have it at 102.6, but I think my calculations might be off. If that is correct even though he has been subpar for himself he hasn't been horrible offensively.
95.5, keyed by an eFG% of only 39.7.
I have confidence he will improve because he was solid last year in Big 12 play, granted in a different role. In conference games only he had an OffRating of 116.4 and eFG% of 50.6. That was at 54% minutes, this year he's at 79.1% minutes played.
lol u r so slow _F.
Hey, look at how many more numbers I gave. :)
Final thought on Will; its not like Frank treats him with kid gloves. He chews him plenty and takes him out after mistakes just like everyone else, but at the end of the day Frank still trusts him. And even with a bad stretch, its pretty clear he hasn't done enough to break that trust so much that Frank won't keep in the game when it matters most.
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the page will be turned when frank puts #teamangel on the line to shoot technical free throws instead of lil' doc spradling.
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95.5, keyed by an eFG% of only 39.7.
I have confidence he will improve because he was solid last year in Big 12 play, granted in a different role. In conference games only he had an OffRating of 116.4 and eFG% of 50.6. That was at 54% minutes, this year he's at 79.1% minutes played.
_fan s right, mir is wrong. doc is fine other than not being able to shoot the cover off the ball, which he has shown he can do at other times.
his role will obviously decrease if mcgruder is going to continue to dominate the ball. there's only one ball.
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his role will remain the same, bring the ball up and run the offense.
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his role will remain the same, bring the ball up and run the offense.
that is a decreased role compared to his role earlier in the year.
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his role will remain the same, bring the ball up and run the offense.
that is a decreased role compared to his role earlier in the year.
hey thanks, but it's the same as it is now. for your next magic trick could you please dissect if his role has changed since he was a high school sophomore?
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hey thanks, but it's the same as it is now.
false. his percentage of shots taken has fallen since conference play opened, while mcgruder's has risen dramatically. some of mcguder's additional shots are coming from elsewhere, but about half or more have come from spradling.
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hey thanks, but it's the same as it is now.
false. his percentage of shots taken has fallen since conference play opened, while mcgruder's has risen dramatically. some of mcguder's additional shots are coming from elsewhere, but about half or more have come from spradling.
ya thanks, i think we already covered this a few posts up. thanks a lot mr.snakes
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It doesn't get any better than sys and clams back-n-forths.
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My problem with him before was that he didn't make things happen, he was very close to a non-descript entity. He's crossed over to hurting the team, he is not doing the things he did did well before and he is making losing plays.
Frank basically called Will out for this during the non-con when he put his zeros on the board at half time for his stats and pointed it out during postgame media :dunno:
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My problem with him before was that he didn't make things happen, he was very close to a non-descript entity. He's crossed over to hurting the team, he is not doing the things he did did well before and he is making losing plays.
Frank basically called Will out for this during the non-con when he put his zeros on the board at half time for his stats and pointed it out during postgame media :dunno:
Yeah, he did this at least twice I believe.
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95.5, keyed by an eFG% of only 39.7.
I have confidence he will improve because he was solid last year in Big 12 play, granted in a different role. In conference games only he had an OffRating of 116.4 and eFG% of 50.6. That was at 54% minutes, this year he's at 79.1% minutes played.
_fan s right, mir is wrong. doc is fine other than not being able to shoot the cover off the ball, which he has shown he can do at other times.
his role will obviously decrease if mcgruder is going to continue to dominate the ball. there's only one ball.
I don't think FAN is disagreeing with me. Is anyone debating that Will has been horrible since conference play has started? He isn't taking less shots since Rodney has "emerged," as a matter of fact I'm pretty sure he's taking more. He is shooting worse, turning the ball over more, assisting less, and fouling more. He is literally doing everything worse than ever in this 6 game stretch. His performance isn't just about shooting, that's insulting. I'm not saying he won't get better, he can't get worse, but man it is frustrating to see how all around bad he's been.
You guys seem to be under the impression that I think this is a permanent condition for Will, I don't. I'm not going to ascribe to the "he's okay" talking point. His defense has been pretty damn good in our wins, garbage in our losses. You cannot have a guy that has the role that Will has with his number of minutes playing as poorly as he has for much longer to have prolonged success.
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I don't think FAN is disagreeing with me. Is anyone debating that Will has been horrible since conference play has started? He isn't taking less shots since Rodney has "emerged," as a matter of fact I'm pretty sure he's taking more. He is shooting worse, turning the ball over more, assisting less, and fouling more. He is literally doing everything worse than ever in this 6 game stretch. His performance isn't just about shooting, that's insulting. I'm not saying he won't get better, he can't get worse, but man it is frustrating to see how all around bad he's been.
you're wrong. look at their stats. mcgruder is up to 27.1 %shots, spradling is down to 18.5. i don't recall their numbers going into the conference, but they were in the range of 23-24 and 20-21.
and also, yeah, it's mostly his shooting. he's turning it over too much (as are they all, except mcgruder), but if he was shooting 50% efg, this thread doesn't swerve into spradling discusso.
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It doesn't get any better than sys and clams back-n-forths.
It really doesn't. Mr. snakes? Lol. Amazing.
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Will is playing out of position because he is the most reliable point we have, but he is in over his head in conference. When Angel is ready to take over we will be alot better. Kinda wish Frank would have just gave the reigns to Angel from game one, we would have struggled a little more early, but might be better off at this point in the season.
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I don't think FAN is disagreeing with me. Is anyone debating that Will has been horrible since conference play has started? He isn't taking less shots since Rodney has "emerged," as a matter of fact I'm pretty sure he's taking more. He is shooting worse, turning the ball over more, assisting less, and fouling more. He is literally doing everything worse than ever in this 6 game stretch. His performance isn't just about shooting, that's insulting. I'm not saying he won't get better, he can't get worse, but man it is frustrating to see how all around bad he's been.
you're wrong. look at their stats. mcgruder is up to 27.1 %shots, spradling is down to 18.5. i don't recall their numbers going into the conference, but they were in the range of 23-24 and 20-21.
and also, yeah, it's mostly his shooting. he's turning it over too much (as are they all, except mcgruder), but if he was shooting 50% efg, this thread doesn't swerve into spradling discusso.
On the season (shot %):
Sprads: 18.4
McG: 26.9
Conf. only:
Sprads: 18.0
McG: 30.8
Conclusion: sys is right, MiR is wrong. As McG's shot% has increased significantly in conference play, Sprads' has gone down (albeit slightly).
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On the season (shot %):
Sprads: 18.4
McG: 26.9
Conf. only:
Sprads: 18.0
McG: 30.8
Conclusion: sys is right, MiR is wrong. As McG's shot% has increased significantly in conference play, Sprads' has gone down (albeit slightly).
good numbers, kougs.
i'd say we were both wrong though. spradling is basically the same, mcgruder way up. i wonder where whose shots are dropping with mcgruder's increased usage?
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On the season (shot %):
Sprads: 18.4
McG: 26.9
Conf. only:
Sprads: 18.0
McG: 30.8
Conclusion: sys is right, MiR is wrong. As McG's shot% has increased significantly in conference play, Sprads' has gone down (albeit slightly).
good numbers, kougs.
i'd say we were both wrong though. spradling is basically the same, mcgruder way up. i wonder where whose shots are dropping with mcgruder's increased usage?
Well, Sprads' is down, even though slightly. Remember: his 18.0% in 6 conference games would have lowered his overall % to 18.4, meaning his non-con % excluding conf. games would be above 18.4. So it's a bigger difference than just 0.4%. Likewise, McG's difference between conf. and non-con is bigger than 3.9%.
Anyway, looks like Shane the Goat's % is trending downward recently. 'Tay's is pretty sporadic, hard to tell with him.
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Gipson's are way down. He is 24.0% for the year and 19.9 in conference. Martavious is 15.6 overall and 13.9 in conference.
Those are the big ones.
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Gipson's are way down. He is 24.0% for the year and 19.9 in conference. Martavious is 15.6 overall and 13.9 in conference.
Those are the big ones.
Gip's shots were partially absorbed by JO (17.8 overall, 19.3 in conf.) and Samuels to a small degree (19.6 to 20.2).
Good catch on 'Tay, who is joined by Shanegoat (12.7 to 11.3).
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To be fair and make a good comparison I think you've got to look at Shot % and Min % side by side.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2FgoEMAW.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F01%2FShootingPlayingMoreLess.png&hash=2f6c8a97c2429bf5fa9086dead56bc7cd6d88170)
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Couldn't resist the urge to go full nerd on this one; I'll say it's in honor of _FAN.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi133.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq45%2Fkougar24%2FKState%2Fksu-shot_pct-diff-20120124.png&hash=cd66b2ce7c6c9e807bb32024fba36c8a9e8fd07b)
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how did you get the non-con shot%?
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man, oh man. nino. :love:
that presentation is fantastic, kougar.
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how did you get the non-con shot%?
([non-con games played] * x) + ([conf. games played] * [conf. shot %]) = [total games played] * [overall shot %]
where x = non-con shot %
probably wrong, but the numbers looked appropriate :dunno:
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NINO!
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([non-con games played] * x) + ([conf. games played] * [conf. shot %]) = [total games played] * [overall shot %]
where x = non-con shot %
need _FAN to validate.
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Jones is all "mo minutes, mo buckets".
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I wonder how much Angel's non-con % was jacked up by the Hawaii burst.
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([non-con games played] * x) + ([conf. games played] * [conf. shot %]) = [total games played] * [overall shot %]
where x = non-con shot %
need _FAN to validate.
Seems like it would be right to me.
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([non-con games played] * x) + ([conf. games played] * [conf. shot %]) = [total games played] * [overall shot %]
where x = non-con shot %
need _FAN to validate.
Seems like it would be right to me.
Huzzah! All that work was pretty pointless though, as it only reaffirmed what was said above that post in terms of where McG's shots are coming from.
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([non-con games played] * x) + ([conf. games played] * [conf. shot %]) = [total games played] * [overall shot %]
where x = non-con shot %
need _FAN to validate.
Seems like it would be right to me.
Huzzah! All that work was pretty pointless though, as it only reaffirmed what was said above that post in terms of where McG's shots are coming from.
Yes. By the way, nice work. And just because a person likes excel/numbers/stats it doesn't make them a nerd. :gocho:
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([non-con games played] * x) + ([conf. games played] * [conf. shot %]) = [total games played] * [overall shot %]
where x = non-con shot %
need _FAN to validate.
Seems like it would be right to me.
Huzzah! All that work was pretty pointless though, as it only reaffirmed what was said above that post in terms of where McG's shots are coming from.
Yes. By the way, nice work. And just because a person likes excel/numbers/stats it doesn't make them a nerd. :gocho:
oh yes it does
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([non-con games played] * x) + ([conf. games played] * [conf. shot %]) = [total games played] * [overall shot %]
where x = non-con shot %
need _FAN to validate.
Seems like it would be right to me.
Huzzah! All that work was pretty pointless though, as it only reaffirmed what was said above that post in terms of where McG's shots are coming from.
Yes. By the way, nice work. And just because a person likes excel/numbers/stats it doesn't make them a nerd. :gocho:
False
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I am not a fan of stats, so just keep waving that big brush around.