Author Topic: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan  (Read 18854 times)

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Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2012, 08:16:37 AM »

This isn't true.  There is a lot of good data that suggests retention is hurt with our long summer breaks in the US.  The idea behind year long schooling is to have the same number of school days and move parts of the summer break to a longer winter break and around spring break.

Was this "magical data" obtained from inner city districts where kids are either in school or out on the streets without a free breakfast/free lunch gang banging?  Well no crap Data suggest being out of the poverty stricken environments produces better test results.  I know what "data" you're talking about.   The research was conducted in Chicago; It holds NO RELEVANCE to my kids.   

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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2012, 08:22:42 AM »

This isn't true.  There is a lot of good data that suggests retention is hurt with our long summer breaks in the US.  The idea behind year long schooling is to have the same number of school days and move parts of the summer break to a longer winter break and around spring break.

Was this "magical data" obtained from inner city districts where kids are either in school or out on the streets without a free breakfast/free lunch gang banging?  Well no crap Data suggest being out of the poverty stricken environments produces better test results.  I know what "data" you're talking about.   The research was conducted in Chicago; It holds NO RELEVANCE to my kids.

Don't you homeschool your kids anyway?

Offline 06wildcat

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2012, 08:30:59 AM »

I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that there is some magic thing that happens when you have kids that suddenly makes you more qualified to comment on public education.

How old are you? How many friends/relatives do you have working in education? How many kids do you know currently in K-12 public schools? Are you volunteering in schools?

Because things change greatly even from year to year in the same district. The vast majority of people only know what's actually going on in schools if they have kids or are related to someone working there.

Even my above statement about administrators is really a sweeping generalization of four districts in Kansas, though it seems pretty accurate since the districts have changed but the administrators stayed pretty much the same.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #103 on: June 12, 2012, 08:38:55 AM »

This isn't true.  There is a lot of good data that suggests retention is hurt with our long summer breaks in the US.  The idea behind year long schooling is to have the same number of school days and move parts of the summer break to a longer winter break and around spring break.

Was this "magical data" obtained from inner city districts where kids are either in school or out on the streets without a free breakfast/free lunch gang banging?  Well no crap Data suggest being out of the poverty stricken environments produces better test results.  I know what "data" you're talking about.   The research was conducted in Chicago; It holds NO RELEVANCE to my kids.

Here is a link to a study conducted by the University of Missouri-Columbia on the effect of summer vacation on learning retention. It found that all students, regardless of income level, lose about one month on a grade-equivalent scale in all subjects but reading, where poor students still lose that month, but middle-class and upper-class students make small gains. The losses get greater as the students get older. Students are only in school for 9 months with a summer vacation, so having to reteach last year's work for the first month of the school year is a big deal. That's 11% of the school year. If students went to school year-round, a teacher could cover 3 months worth of material from mid-May to mid-August without having to reteach anything. That would allow them to have 4 months worth of their current material covered by mid-August, which is 44% of what is getting covered over the course of an entire school year with summer vacation. Almost an entire year's worth of material would be covered by Christmas Break.

http://rer.sagepub.com/content/66/3/227.abstract
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 08:41:48 AM by Nuts Kicked »

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2012, 08:41:22 AM »

I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that there is some magic thing that happens when you have kids that suddenly makes you more qualified to comment on public education.

How old are you? How many friends/relatives do you have working in education? How many kids do you know currently in K-12 public schools? Are you volunteering in schools?

Because things change greatly even from year to year in the same district. The vast majority of people only know what's actually going on in schools if they have kids or are related to someone working there.

Even my above statement about administrators is really a sweeping generalization of four districts in Kansas, though it seems pretty accurate since the districts have changed but the administrators stayed pretty much the same.

I'm 29. My wife and mother both teach. I have a few relatives in K-12, and none of them are struggling.

Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2012, 08:44:18 AM »

I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that there is some magic thing that happens when you have kids that suddenly makes you more qualified to comment on public education.

Well let me educate you.  When you don't have kids, you look at public education from a tax payers perspective.  When you do have kids, you spend 3 years reading books, watching documentaries, reading published articles and test studies.  You watch your kid grow up and wonder why he's walking at 7 months old, but can't catch a ball at 3 years old.  You spend time talking to your Dr. about his vision/tracking when he complains of headaches while learning to read.  You look at diet and realize that your kid "performs better" when s/he has a healthy diet, but will display symptoms of ADD when s/he eats highly processed sugars & highly processed carb foods.  You spend an obscene amount of time researching into whether you should home school / public educate / private school.  You might even have a spouse that cares about this so much that s/he works towards their masters degree as a reading specialist and writes blogs about public education reform.

So basically yes.   People with kids typically are "magically" more qualified to yank intellectually on the subject. 
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Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2012, 09:50:34 AM »
Here's the main point I would like to make.  Standardized test are nothing but a meaningless metric for tracking how well a kid prepares for a test - which holds no bearing on intellect - just how well they absorb info.  If your goal is to produce the factory workers of the world - fine.  I imagine the industrial revolution had some effect on public education - so I'm not surprised in public educations desire to produce loyal subjects that easily take instruction.  If you want your kid to be a critical thinker - don't measure their success with how well they prepare for a standardized test.  I would be prouder of my child's refusal to take part in some song & dance routine only to be a metric in some politicians political campaign, because it would show that they understand the test doesn't mean anything unless they actually are intelligent - which doesn't really need to be proven to anyone besides themselves.

I would think a sports BBS would understand the "stars are meaningless" argument.   While I'm not saying every 4.0 student will be a bust - we all know those kids that were perfect 4.0 students that are more likely to end up jamming the copier or removing the cap off the water jug before replenishing the office water cooler (spilling water all over the god damned floor) than revolutionizing some industry.   

So in a sense - I'm fine with public education the way it is.  But god damn-it, do not ask me for any more tax money if your primary goal is to produce factory workers - because I will home-school my child.  Now if you want to produce critical thinkers that will some day be making decisions on all of our future - stop tracking your success on educating them with some pointless test.  The system fighting to keep funding will use all of their energy making sure their kids pass that test and leave no time for actual education.  Your kids will become very good at taking instruction - no doubt.  But you'll be real god damned tired of them when they're 30 and still asking you how to balance their checkbook.
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Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2012, 10:15:55 AM »

This isn't true.  There is a lot of good data that suggests retention is hurt with our long summer breaks in the US.  The idea behind year long schooling is to have the same number of school days and move parts of the summer break to a longer winter break and around spring break.

Was this "magical data" obtained from inner city districts where kids are either in school or out on the streets without a free breakfast/free lunch gang banging?  Well no crap Data suggest being out of the poverty stricken environments produces better test results.  I know what "data" you're talking about.   The research was conducted in Chicago; It holds NO RELEVANCE to my kids.

Here is a link to a study conducted by the University of Missouri-Columbia on the effect of summer vacation on learning retention. It found that all students, regardless of income level, lose about one month on a grade-equivalent scale in all subjects but reading, where poor students still lose that month, but middle-class and upper-class students make small gains. The losses get greater as the students get older. Students are only in school for 9 months with a summer vacation, so having to reteach last year's work for the first month of the school year is a big deal. That's 11% of the school year. If students went to school year-round, a teacher could cover 3 months worth of material from mid-May to mid-August without having to reteach anything. That would allow them to have 4 months worth of their current material covered by mid-August, which is 44% of what is getting covered over the course of an entire school year with summer vacation. Almost an entire year's worth of material would be covered by Christmas Break.

http://rer.sagepub.com/content/66/3/227.abstract

I forgot to thank you for your worthless article.  Here's where the part about not having a valued opinion on this subject while not having kids comes into play.  My kid knew the alphabet at 14 months old.  He could read simple words like Cat & Dog by 2.  When he started becoming more independent in his thoughts - and dealing with real life issues like death after his pet dog died at 4 - he started asking more questions about life, god, & why people did bad things.  He started to become a critical thinker.  He decided he wanted to know everything there was to know about flight & propulsion.  By 5 he had helped me build & launch several rockets - fully understanding the theories behind propulsion and even how lift is obtained by wing structures.  He even put these principles into work while developing his own "inventions"  But some people's accounts - his desire & thirst for knowledge would place him in gifted programs.  He, now at 6 however, cannot read. At first we thought it was a learning disability.  It turns out he has realized through our & his kindergarten teachers attempts to teach him to read - that all he was doing was a parlor trick.  Simple memorization which required no critical thinking.  He developed a stubbornness and refuses to learn to read.   Now - IF we were to force him to learn to read - what benefit would that provide?  He certainly wouldn't love to read, as people tend to not love things they're forced to do.  He would never again have that thirst for knowledge.  He would never read books that talked about early developments into nuclear programs and early rocket propulsion - something I know he would love because doing so would require he do something he developed a great disdain for.  Reading. 

So.  Where do I go from here?  Am I to believe that my kid will NEVER learn to read?  No, that's absurd.  He will learn - when he ask me a question I can't answer and when no one will read to him, he will decide that if he wants to know these things - he will have to do it himself.  See the magic there?  He'll do it when he decides he needs to and he'll be fully committed to doing it.  Something your teacher wife & mother would agree would be amazing - a student THIRSTING to be taught.   They have these kids - and they're few & far between.  These are the kids that may irritate the teacher - because they'll do just fine on the test - but they keep bothering them with questions and taking away their time & energy from kids that will not do fine on the test. NCLB - is leaving behind the kids with a thirst for knowledge.   

All that link above shows it kids can be taught simple parlor tricks and memorization works better with repetition.  Something that will not help them in life unless they're a factory worker.
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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2012, 10:20:17 AM »

This isn't true.  There is a lot of good data that suggests retention is hurt with our long summer breaks in the US.  The idea behind year long schooling is to have the same number of school days and move parts of the summer break to a longer winter break and around spring break.

Was this "magical data" obtained from inner city districts where kids are either in school or out on the streets without a free breakfast/free lunch gang banging?  Well no crap Data suggest being out of the poverty stricken environments produces better test results.  I know what "data" you're talking about.   The research was conducted in Chicago; It holds NO RELEVANCE to my kids.

Here is a link to a study conducted by the University of Missouri-Columbia on the effect of summer vacation on learning retention. It found that all students, regardless of income level, lose about one month on a grade-equivalent scale in all subjects but reading, where poor students still lose that month, but middle-class and upper-class students make small gains. The losses get greater as the students get older. Students are only in school for 9 months with a summer vacation, so having to reteach last year's work for the first month of the school year is a big deal. That's 11% of the school year. If students went to school year-round, a teacher could cover 3 months worth of material from mid-May to mid-August without having to reteach anything. That would allow them to have 4 months worth of their current material covered by mid-August, which is 44% of what is getting covered over the course of an entire school year with summer vacation. Almost an entire year's worth of material would be covered by Christmas Break.

http://rer.sagepub.com/content/66/3/227.abstract

I forgot to thank you for your worthless article.  Here's where the part about not having a valued opinion on this subject while not having kids comes into play.  My kid knew the alphabet at 14 months old.  He could read simple words like Cat & Dog by 2.  When he started becoming more independent in his thoughts - and dealing with real life issues like death after his pet dog died at 4 - he started asking more questions about life, god, & why people did bad things.  He started to become a critical thinker.  He decided he wanted to know everything there was to know about flight & propulsion.  By 5 he had helped me build & launch several rockets - fully understanding the theories behind propulsion and even how lift is obtained by wing structures.  He even put these principles into work while developing his own "inventions"  But some people's accounts - his desire & thirst for knowledge would place him in gifted programs.  He, now at 6 however, cannot read. At first we thought it was a learning disability.  It turns out he has realized through our & his kindergarten teachers attempts to teach him to read - that all he was doing was a parlor trick.  Simple memorization which required no critical thinking.  He developed a stubbornness and refuses to learn to read.   Now - IF we were to force him to learn to read - what benefit would that provide?  He certainly wouldn't love to read, as people tend to not love things they're forced to do.  He would never again have that thirst for knowledge.  He would never read books that talked about early developments into nuclear programs and early rocket propulsion - something I know he would love because doing so would require he do something he developed a great disdain for.  Reading. 

So.  Where do I go from here?  Am I to believe that my kid will NEVER learn to read?  No, that's absurd.  He will learn - when he ask me a question I can't answer and when no one will read to him, he will decide that if he wants to know these things - he will have to do it himself.  See the magic there?  He'll do it when he decides he needs to and he'll be fully committed to doing it.  Something your teacher wife & mother would agree would be amazing - a student THIRSTING to be taught.   They have these kids - and they're few & far between.  These are the kids that may irritate the teacher - because they'll do just fine on the test - but they keep bothering them with questions and taking away their time & energy from kids that will not do fine on the test. NCLB - is leaving behind the kids with a thirst for knowledge.   

All that link above shows it kids can be taught simple parlor tricks and memorization works better with repetition.  Something that will not help them in life unless they're a factory worker.

Repetition is also pretty useful if you are an engineer, doctor, lawyer, chemist, physicist, etc. :dunno:

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #109 on: June 12, 2012, 10:23:36 AM »
Heinballz, what you fail to realize is that this is not about your kid. It's about education and the effect that the kids our system is producing have on the economy in general. It's about taxpayers getting a return on their investment. Claiming you shouldn't have to fund education with your taxpayer dollars because your child is homeschooled is incredibly short-sighted.

Offline ksutrumpet

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #110 on: June 12, 2012, 10:49:43 AM »
I know I'm a little late on this, but i thought it was funny how we are debating privatization/public education.  The graph on the pg1 showed that the countries that are out performing the U.S. in science and math are some of the most Socialized countries in the world with universal healthcare and large public sector unions. So obviously those can't be what is wrong with education in the U.S. because the trend would seem to indicate the opposite.

Offline Stellarcat

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #111 on: June 12, 2012, 10:51:39 AM »
Heinballz, what you fail to realize is that this is not about your kid. It's about education and the effect that the kids our system is producing have on the economy in general. It's about taxpayers getting a return on their investment. Claiming you shouldn't have to fund education with your taxpayer dollars because your child is homeschooled is incredibly short-sighted.

I think the point is that kids learn at their own pace, and judging their intelligence or the efficacy of the teacher by some arbitrary test results is ridiculous.  Memorizing is not an effective way to learn most concepts.  I have a great memory.  Math was a breeze for me when all I had to do was memorize facts and steps.  Once I actually had to apply what I was memorizing, I bombed big time. 

I would never homeschool, and I don't want to send my son to private school, so he will definitely be going to public school.  It makes me uncomfortable that our neighborhood elementary school has freakishly high test scores, though, because now I know what they teach all day.  I guess all schools do...they just excel at it. 

Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #112 on: June 12, 2012, 11:22:24 AM »
Heinballz, what you fail to realize is that this is not about your kid. It's about education and the effect that the kids our system is producing have on the economy in general. It's about taxpayers getting a return on their investment. Claiming you shouldn't have to fund education with your taxpayer dollars because your child is homeschooled is incredibly short-sighted.
Did I say I didn't want to pay taxes because my kid is home schooled?  No.  I said if your goal is to produce factory workers - don't ask me for more tax dollars because it really doesn't matter if a factory worker has drop off over summer breaks.  Going to school year round would cost more - and in the long run - won't make kids smarter… but it will make them better at taking test. All they need to do is take instruction - which public school is sufficiently capable for producing on MUCH LESS than what we're already paying.   If your goal is to produce critical thinkers… those who understand concepts – then we can talk.  But if that’s the direction we’re going – there needs to be a complete overhaul of the entire educational system.

Repetition is also pretty useful if you are an engineer, doctor, lawyer, chemist, physicist, etc. :dunno:

As you so plainly put it, repetition is helpful to Dr.'s & engineers...  which I don't argue; it's helpful to everyone.  But repetition isn't something that needs to be learned in a school - it comes naturally.  It comes AFTER a task is mastered - It's not a tool for mastering a future task.  I should also point out, the difference between a good Dr/engineer is someone that learns from mistakes and... gasp "Thinks Critically" and doesn't get caught in repetition.   The very nature of doing simple mundane task often causes people to "turn off their brain" and allow the archaic portion of their brain to take over.  Like driving a car – have you ever driven for a couple hours on a highway with no traffic?   You completely shut off and let motor skills take over.   Is that the kind of Dr you want performing surgery on you?  Or lawyer providing legal counsel?  Someone that might panic in the face of something abnormal because it doesn’t fit into their regular repetitious routine?  That’s how mistakes are made – but you’re encouraging people to perform simple mundane task that require no thought and touting standardized test as some metric to track how capable teachers are at creating kids that perform mindless mundane tasks.

Look, if that’s the goal of public education – so be it.  But don’t move education in a more costly direction in hopes to achieve more critical thinkers – if the studies you’re basing your curriculum off of only proves to create mindless loyal subjects.
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Offline husserl

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #113 on: June 12, 2012, 03:49:51 PM »
I know I'm a little late on this, but i thought it was funny how we are debating privatization/public education.  The graph on the pg1 showed that the countries that are out performing the U.S. in science and math are some of the most Socialized countries in the world with universal healthcare and large public sector unions. So obviously those can't be what is wrong with education in the U.S. because the trend would seem to indicate the opposite.

Two more random observations:  those countries have far fewer poor kids and didn't spend hundreds of years trying to make sure a major part of their populations couldn't read.

Offline ednksu

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #114 on: June 12, 2012, 08:08:09 PM »

This isn't true.  There is a lot of good data that suggests retention is hurt with our long summer breaks in the US.  The idea behind year long schooling is to have the same number of school days and move parts of the summer break to a longer winter break and around spring break.

Was this "magical data" obtained from inner city districts where kids are either in school or out on the streets without a free breakfast/free lunch gang banging?  Well no crap Data suggest being out of the poverty stricken environments produces better test results.  I know what "data" you're talking about.   The research was conducted in Chicago; It holds NO RELEVANCE to my kids.

Here is a link to a study conducted by the University of Missouri-Columbia on the effect of summer vacation on learning retention. It found that all students, regardless of income level, lose about one month on a grade-equivalent scale in all subjects but reading, where poor students still lose that month, but middle-class and upper-class students make small gains. The losses get greater as the students get older. Students are only in school for 9 months with a summer vacation, so having to reteach last year's work for the first month of the school year is a big deal. That's 11% of the school year. If students went to school year-round, a teacher could cover 3 months worth of material from mid-May to mid-August without having to reteach anything. That would allow them to have 4 months worth of their current material covered by mid-August, which is 44% of what is getting covered over the course of an entire school year with summer vacation. Almost an entire year's worth of material would be covered by Christmas Break.

http://rer.sagepub.com/content/66/3/227.abstract

I forgot to thank you for your worthless article.  Here's where the part about not having a valued opinion on this subject while not having kids comes into play.  My kid knew the alphabet at 14 months old.  He could read simple words like Cat & Dog by 2.  When he started becoming more independent in his thoughts - and dealing with real life issues like death after his pet dog died at 4 - he started asking more questions about life, god, & why people did bad things.  He started to become a critical thinker.  He decided he wanted to know everything there was to know about flight & propulsion.  By 5 he had helped me build & launch several rockets - fully understanding the theories behind propulsion and even how lift is obtained by wing structures.  He even put these principles into work while developing his own "inventions"  But some people's accounts - his desire & thirst for knowledge would place him in gifted programs.  He, now at 6 however, cannot read. At first we thought it was a learning disability.  It turns out he has realized through our & his kindergarten teachers attempts to teach him to read - that all he was doing was a parlor trick.  Simple memorization which required no critical thinking.  He developed a stubbornness and refuses to learn to read.   Now - IF we were to force him to learn to read - what benefit would that provide?  He certainly wouldn't love to read, as people tend to not love things they're forced to do.  He would never again have that thirst for knowledge.  He would never read books that talked about early developments into nuclear programs and early rocket propulsion - something I know he would love because doing so would require he do something he developed a great disdain for.  Reading. 

So.  Where do I go from here?  Am I to believe that my kid will NEVER learn to read?  No, that's absurd.  He will learn - when he ask me a question I can't answer and when no one will read to him, he will decide that if he wants to know these things - he will have to do it himself.  See the magic there?  He'll do it when he decides he needs to and he'll be fully committed to doing it.  Something your teacher wife & mother would agree would be amazing - a student THIRSTING to be taught.   They have these kids - and they're few & far between.  These are the kids that may irritate the teacher - because they'll do just fine on the test - but they keep bothering them with questions and taking away their time & energy from kids that will not do fine on the test. NCLB - is leaving behind the kids with a thirst for knowledge.   

All that link above shows it kids can be taught simple parlor tricks and memorization works better with repetition.  Something that will not help them in life unless they're a factory worker.

you understand little of the educational process and do your child a disservice with your meaningless diatribes. 

Children learn faster and with more detail in year round settings.  Please also remember that the educational system is designed to teach 30 kids in a room, not just your little flesh turd.  The fact is retention of material goes up when information is repeated and extended/built on. 

Also your child isn't a critical thinker because he doesn't understand the process of reading. 
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Offline ednksu

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #115 on: June 12, 2012, 08:16:19 PM »
Heinballz, what you fail to realize is that this is not about your kid. It's about education and the effect that the kids our system is producing have on the economy in general. It's about taxpayers getting a return on their investment. Claiming you shouldn't have to fund education with your taxpayer dollars because your child is homeschooled is incredibly short-sighted.
Did I say I didn't want to pay taxes because my kid is home schooled?  No.  I said if your goal is to produce factory workers - don't ask me for more tax dollars because it really doesn't matter if a factory worker has drop off over summer breaks.  Going to school year round would cost more - and in the long run - won't make kids smarter… but it will make them better at taking test. All they need to do is take instruction - which public school is sufficiently capable for producing on MUCH LESS than what we're already paying.   If your goal is to produce critical thinkers… those who understand concepts – then we can talk.  But if that’s the direction we’re going – there needs to be a complete overhaul of the entire educational system.

Repetition is also pretty useful if you are an engineer, doctor, lawyer, chemist, physicist, etc. :dunno:

As you so plainly put it, repetition is helpful to Dr.'s & engineers...  which I don't argue; it's helpful to everyone.  But repetition isn't something that needs to be learned in a school - it comes naturally.  It comes AFTER a task is mastered - It's not a tool for mastering a future task.  I should also point out, the difference between a good Dr/engineer is someone that learns from mistakes and... gasp "Thinks Critically" and doesn't get caught in repetition.   The very nature of doing simple mundane task often causes people to "turn off their brain" and allow the archaic portion of their brain to take over.  Like driving a car – have you ever driven for a couple hours on a highway with no traffic?   You completely shut off and let motor skills take over.   Is that the kind of Dr you want performing surgery on you?  Or lawyer providing legal counsel?  Someone that might panic in the face of something abnormal because it doesn’t fit into their regular repetitious routine?  That’s how mistakes are made – but you’re encouraging people to perform simple mundane task that require no thought and touting standardized test as some metric to track how capable teachers are at creating kids that perform mindless mundane tasks.

Look, if that’s the goal of public education – so be it.  But don’t move education in a more costly direction in hopes to achieve more critical thinkers – if the studies you’re basing your curriculum off of only proves to create mindless loyal subjects.
In no way does year round schooling cost more.  It is the same amount of net days you idiot. 

Also LOTS are foundational elements which must be built before HOTS can begin.  If a teacher has to spend massive amounts of their time rebuilding the foundations of LOTS it takes longer and is an less efficient process to get to HOTS.  If fact many of the advantages of the home schooling environment take advantage of similar process year long schooling would use.  So in fact the educational advantages of the year round schedule would increase the likely hood of a critical thinker and not just some factory worker. 

Keep in mind that multiple teachers are in this thread and are constantly clownsuiting you before your next post.
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KU is right on par with Notre Dame ... when it comes to adding additional conference revenue

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Offline Stellarcat

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #116 on: June 12, 2012, 09:28:53 PM »
I agree that kids would retain more with year round school, though I wonder if they would shut down for a few weeks before each break, like most do before winter and summer.  I actually think that I would prefer to teach year round, once I got married and didn't have to count on a summer job to supplement my teaching income.  As a kid, I think I would have hated it, because as much as I liked school, I  :love: summer break.

Offline 0.42

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #117 on: June 12, 2012, 09:40:22 PM »
new curriculum plan:

have all kids read (but not post) on goEMAW. it is, after all, endorsed by an english teacher.

/thread

Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #118 on: June 12, 2012, 10:09:29 PM »
you understand little of the educational process and do your child a disservice with your meaningless diatribes. 
Children learn faster and with more detail in year round settings.  Please also remember that the educational system is designed to teach 30 kids in a room, not just your little flesh turd.  The fact is retention of material goes up when information is repeated and extended/built on. 
Also your child isn't a critical thinker because he doesn't understand the process of reading. 
In no way does year round schooling cost more.  It is the same amount of net days you idiot. 
Also LOTS are foundational elements which must be built before HOTS can begin.  If a teacher has to spend massive amounts of their time rebuilding the foundations of LOTS it takes longer and is an less efficient process to get to HOTS.  If fact many of the advantages of the home schooling environment take advantage of similar process year long schooling would use.  So in fact the educational advantages of the year round schedule would increase the likely hood of a critical thinker and not just some factory worker. 
Keep in mind that multiple teachers are in this thread and are constantly clownsuiting you before your next post.

Excuse me for quoting all of that.  But it reminded me of something I used to do in college; when my friends made asses of themselves, I liked to take a picture of them to remind them later what gigantic asses they are.  But let me just say…  Wow. Name calling.  Did I strike a nerve? Or did public education leave you with that as your one option when you're losing a debate?  And who's clown suiting me?  The same teachers that are currently part of a public education system that is completely failing?   
As for year round school costing the same; Excuse me for confusing you with the other person that stated "... really I think we need to stop giving kids summers off school. Just make them go year-round and compensate teachers accordingly." when we were talking about teachers pay.  Up until this last post, I thought you and Nutzkicked were the same person.   My apologies for both of your regurgitated talking points seeming similar.   
I fully understand the whole "spending the first month making up what a kid learned in the previous year" argument.  And I agree.  HOWEVER. If a kid was REALLY LEARNING IT, THEY WOULDN'T rough ridin' FORGET IT!  Do you get that?  Should I bold that for you?  Possibly call you an idiot when you ignore this argument?  How about numb nutz?  Flesh turd?  Any of those child like assaults spark something in your brain other than... how did I put that before?  "REGURGITATING TALKING POINTS"....  Sorry for using the same statement "REGURGITATING TALKING POINTS" twice in the same post but someone once told me when you're dealing with someone incapable of independent thought, repetition is a useful tool to teach them something.  It took me a while to understand this method until I remembered a time I was training my dog not to crap on the carpet.   I firmly told him "No.  Shitting on the carpet is BAD!"  and did this every time.   He eventually stopped shitting on the carpet, because of the repetition tactic I used.  Of course he fell for it, because dogs are so stupid.  But then again, every once in a while, when he couldn't get out of the house fast enough, he would panic and crap on the carpet.  I figured I wouldn't be so hard on him, because he was not capable of independent thought and probably resorted back to primal instincts and crap on the carpet anyway.   But whatever, what were we talking about?  Yes.  I remember now; I have a good memory.  We were talking about year round schooling and you made the fantastic point that year round education is often used in homeschooling and there are many many facts and lots and lots of research done by smart people saying this is good.   I'm going to say something that may surprise you.  Of course, you already think I'm an idiot and my kid is a flesh turd as you so colorfully put it, so maybe not.   I agree.  Education never stops.  Kids are constantly learning.   We employ this type of education in our home.   Although, I didn't call it what it really is to us, because I figured you wouldn't get it.  We're employing something known as "un-schooling"   I'm sure you're aware of it because you're so smart and you've spent the last ten years clown suiting anyone that has an opinion on how their child should be raised.  And by clown suiting I mean, resorting to childish name calling.  For the intellectually challenged, un-schooling is a tactic that has been educating people since the very beginning of human existence.   We don’t sit at a table.  We don’t memorize useless facts.  We don’t do work-sheets.  We don’t really have a curriculum.  We learn through real life experiences.  This may seem crazy for you, and I don’t have any fancy graphs or charts to show you how smart my kid is.  I tried to come up with some metrics and even started making a standardized test, but after I made my kid take it, he panicked and crap on the carpet.  But I have a feeling you knew that with your uncanny ability to guess his nickname, “Flesh Turd”.    Here’s the most simplified way I can describe unschooling to you, because I know this might be a tough concept, and you may need to read this a couple of times.  I’ll be sure to invite you back to this thread every day with a little PM so that you can re-read and get your daily dose of repetition with hopes that you’ll learn this new fangled way of teaching.   Here it is.  Wait for it.   We let our kid decide what he wants to learn. 
 
SHOCK HORROR!!!   OMG, WTF? DHJSWITHS? (Did he just say what I thought he said?)  Yes.  Absurd, isn’t it?  I know what you’re thinking.  “Lazy little flesh turd probably just sits in front of the TV all day, every day, doesn’t he?”  Sometimes.  You’d be amazed at how much he learns doing that even.  But no; he doesn’t do that everyday, and in fact – when comparing him to myself at his age – someone who was brought up in public education…  and even comparing him to his friends that are currently in public education, he watches about ¼ of the average kid.  I would say in the range of 4-6 hours a week.  Sometimes none at all in a week – sometimes double that amount.   You may be asking – what has he learned?  Well, earlier this year, he was in Kindergarten.  I know, right?  Real honest to God government run rough ridin' kindergarten.  I’m such a putz, right?  Anyway, when he was in kindergarten which I’m only counting to mid December when we realized we were wrong to go with the flow and tell ourselves our fears of a crappy public education were unfounded – he learned how to write the entire alphabet – count up to 25 and simple things such as rhyming words & patterns.  I referenced in an earlier post a patterns worksheet “nickel, nickel, dime; nickel, nickel, dime; nickel, nickel _____” fill in the blank – real worksheet; real mind bending stuff.   Get this – he even memorized/read a fancy little book about “a cat who sat” who then later “ate a rat.”    Needless to say, poor little flesh turd was bored to tears.   He came home from school telling us his brain didn’t work right because the teacher told him if he couldn’t stay focused long enough to see what the cat ate, he would have to sit in for his recess.   There was also an issue where he had to sit in from recess because he lost his pencil.  I don’t blame his teacher – she was too busy cramming for a standardized test to remember he was only 5 and sitting still and shutting the eff up is sometimes difficult for someone at that age when their broken little brains are so busy not staying focused on mind numbing tasks.    Fearing our little flesh turd would eventually grow up thinking he was stupid because he failed to see the importance of nickel, nickel, dime worksheets by the dozens – we pulled him out.   Since that time, we’ve not done much.  He wired a large scale wiring schematic and developed an understanding of how electricity works.  He then, “completely on his own”, made comparisons of electrical circuits to the human brain.  I doubt however he thought of this completely on his own however – he probably learned it by sitting on his ass watching TV on one of his “I don’t give a crap days”.  After coming to this revelation – he decided he wanted to see a real brain – which I obliged by helping him dissect a turkey brain his cousin had shot this turkey season.  He also had many questions about the turkey’s heart, lungs, liver & intestines – then explained to his mother later that night at diner how his grilled salmon would be turned into poop after his body had absorbed all of the vital nutrients. Which made me feel good, because I was fearful that dissecting a turkey at such an early age might give him an unhealthy fascination with organs which would most definitely turn him into a serial killer some day.  We also discussed how wing structures obtain lift and showed him on the turkey’s wings how even nature uses this basic principle in flight.  He knew turkeys could fly btw, because he’s not a rough ridin' idiot.  Recently, (several months after the turkey dissection) while visiting a flight museum – he pointed out the shape of the wing and explained to a complete stranger how air moving faster over the top of the wing produced low pressure which in turn created higher pressure on the bottom of the wing which results in generating lift – like a turkey wing.   The stranger promptly told him that turkey’s couldn’t fly and my 6 year old son clown-suited him without calling him any names.  He simply explained that wild turkeys could fly because they weren’t fattened up like the ones you see on a farm.  He probably learned that on one of our weekly trips to a local farm where we buy free range eggs & whole un-pasteurized milk.  Anyway, this post is getting long enough and I’m sure I’ll get a couple of mindless :dnr: from some ape thumping his chest to show everyone his/her incredible reading comprehension. 
But here’s my final point directed towards you.  I got in this thread to share my opinion as the premise of the topic suggested public education is broken and needs fixing.  I agree and shared my opinion on why it’s broken.  I’m rather firm in my beliefs and I don’t feel the need to bow down to you.  I don’t see you as inferior and I don’t see myself as superior.  I’m okay with where my child is.  I’m completely okay with my feelings on this subject.  I’m completely okay with your thoughts on this subject.  If I resorted to name calling, please consider it tongue in cheek and much of what I post is satirical.  I firmly disagree with you and that’s okay.  I don’t see the purpose of extending a school year when the very foundation of the school system is broken.  It’s what people like to call “throwing money at a problem”  oops… suggesting additional spending pisses you off.   How about, beating a dead horse?  That do anything for you?

Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline Cire

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #119 on: June 12, 2012, 10:15:37 PM »
It's really only broken in poor areas.

Offline LickNeckey

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Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #120 on: June 12, 2012, 10:34:24 PM »
Year round school is problematic in agricultural areas.

Offline Stellarcat

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #121 on: June 12, 2012, 11:04:39 PM »
Wow, HeinBallz....you clearly don't use a tablet to post.  That would have taken me an hour to type.

Um, so...anybody want to discuss vouchers?

Oh, and I did forget about rural areas re: year round school.  Good point.

Offline Cire

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #122 on: June 12, 2012, 11:16:42 PM »
Year round school is problematic in agricultural  70 years ago.

Fyp

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #123 on: June 12, 2012, 11:27:44 PM »
Wow, HeinBallz....you clearly don't use a tablet to post.  That would have taken me an hour to type.

Um, so...anybody want to discuss vouchers?

Oh, and I did forget about rural areas re: year round school.  Good point.

My problem with vouchers is that not only does private education cost more than public education, but there is not enough classroom space in private schools to take all of the kids who would qualify for vouchers in failing public schools. Private schools cover the same curriculum as public schools while paying their teachers less, which would suggest that teachers at private schools either aren't as good at their job, or they are working at the private school to avoid the type of kid who would be qualifying for a voucher. I think that the higher test scores produced by private schools are more a product of the type of student who attends those schools than the schools themselves, and it's not realistic to expect that poor students who get a voucher to a private school to all of a sudden become good students.

In short, they are a waste of money.

Offline ednksu

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #124 on: June 13, 2012, 12:36:14 AM »
you understand little of the educational process and do your child a disservice with your meaningless diatribes. 
Children learn faster and with more detail in year round settings.  Please also remember that the educational system is designed to teach 30 kids in a room, not just your little flesh turd.  The fact is retention of material goes up when information is repeated and extended/built on. 
Also your child isn't a critical thinker because he doesn't understand the process of reading. 
In no way does year round schooling cost more.  It is the same amount of net days you idiot. 
Also LOTS are foundational elements which must be built before HOTS can begin.  If a teacher has to spend massive amounts of their time rebuilding the foundations of LOTS it takes longer and is an less efficient process to get to HOTS.  If fact many of the advantages of the home schooling environment take advantage of similar process year long schooling would use.  So in fact the educational advantages of the year round schedule would increase the likely hood of a critical thinker and not just some factory worker. 
Keep in mind that multiple teachers are in this thread and are constantly clownsuiting you before your next post.

Excuse me for quoting all of that.  But it reminded me of something I used to do in college; when my friends made asses of themselves, I liked to take a picture of them to remind them later what gigantic asses they are.  But let me just say…  Wow. Name calling.  Did I strike a nerve? Or did public education leave you with that as your one option when you're losing a debate?  And who's clown suiting me?  The same teachers that are currently part of a public education system that is completely failing?   
As for year round school costing the same; Excuse me for confusing you with the other person that stated "... really I think we need to stop giving kids summers off school. Just make them go year-round and compensate teachers accordingly." when we were talking about teachers pay.  Up until this last post, I thought you and Nutzkicked were the same person.   My apologies for both of your regurgitated talking points seeming similar.   
I fully understand the whole "spending the first month making up what a kid learned in the previous year" argument.  And I agree.  HOWEVER. If a kid was REALLY LEARNING IT, THEY WOULDN'T rough ridin' FORGET IT!  Do you get that?  Should I bold that for you?  Possibly call you an idiot when you ignore this argument?  How about numb nutz?  Flesh turd?  Any of those child like assaults spark something in your brain other than... how did I put that before?  "REGURGITATING TALKING POINTS"....  Sorry for using the same statement "REGURGITATING TALKING POINTS" twice in the same post but someone once told me when you're dealing with someone incapable of independent thought, repetition is a useful tool to teach them something.  It took me a while to understand this method until I remembered a time I was training my dog not to crap on the carpet.   I firmly told him "No.  Shitting on the carpet is BAD!"  and did this every time.   He eventually stopped shitting on the carpet, because of the repetition tactic I used.  Of course he fell for it, because dogs are so stupid.  But then again, every once in a while, when he couldn't get out of the house fast enough, he would panic and crap on the carpet.  I figured I wouldn't be so hard on him, because he was not capable of independent thought and probably resorted back to primal instincts and crap on the carpet anyway.   But whatever, what were we talking about?  Yes.  I remember now; I have a good memory.  We were talking about year round schooling and you made the fantastic point that year round education is often used in homeschooling and there are many many facts and lots and lots of research done by smart people saying this is good.   I'm going to say something that may surprise you.  Of course, you already think I'm an idiot and my kid is a flesh turd as you so colorfully put it, so maybe not.   I agree.  Education never stops.  Kids are constantly learning.   We employ this type of education in our home.   Although, I didn't call it what it really is to us, because I figured you wouldn't get it.  We're employing something known as "un-schooling"   I'm sure you're aware of it because you're so smart and you've spent the last ten years clown suiting anyone that has an opinion on how their child should be raised.  And by clown suiting I mean, resorting to childish name calling.  For the intellectually challenged, un-schooling is a tactic that has been educating people since the very beginning of human existence.   We don’t sit at a table.  We don’t memorize useless facts.  We don’t do work-sheets.  We don’t really have a curriculum.  We learn through real life experiences.  This may seem crazy for you, and I don’t have any fancy graphs or charts to show you how smart my kid is.  I tried to come up with some metrics and even started making a standardized test, but after I made my kid take it, he panicked and crap on the carpet.  But I have a feeling you knew that with your uncanny ability to guess his nickname, “Flesh Turd”.    Here’s the most simplified way I can describe unschooling to you, because I know this might be a tough concept, and you may need to read this a couple of times.  I’ll be sure to invite you back to this thread every day with a little PM so that you can re-read and get your daily dose of repetition with hopes that you’ll learn this new fangled way of teaching.   Here it is.  Wait for it.   We let our kid decide what he wants to learn. 
 
SHOCK HORROR!!!   OMG, WTF? DHJSWITHS? (Did he just say what I thought he said?)  Yes.  Absurd, isn’t it?  I know what you’re thinking.  “Lazy little flesh turd probably just sits in front of the TV all day, every day, doesn’t he?”  Sometimes.  You’d be amazed at how much he learns doing that even.  But no; he doesn’t do that everyday, and in fact – when comparing him to myself at his age – someone who was brought up in public education…  and even comparing him to his friends that are currently in public education, he watches about ¼ of the average kid.  I would say in the range of 4-6 hours a week.  Sometimes none at all in a week – sometimes double that amount.   You may be asking – what has he learned?  Well, earlier this year, he was in Kindergarten.  I know, right?  Real honest to God government run rough ridin' kindergarten.  I’m such a putz, right?  Anyway, when he was in kindergarten which I’m only counting to mid December when we realized we were wrong to go with the flow and tell ourselves our fears of a crappy public education were unfounded – he learned how to write the entire alphabet – count up to 25 and simple things such as rhyming words & patterns.  I referenced in an earlier post a patterns worksheet “nickel, nickel, dime; nickel, nickel, dime; nickel, nickel _____” fill in the blank – real worksheet; real mind bending stuff.   Get this – he even memorized/read a fancy little book about “a cat who sat” who then later “ate a rat.”    Needless to say, poor little flesh turd was bored to tears.   He came home from school telling us his brain didn’t work right because the teacher told him if he couldn’t stay focused long enough to see what the cat ate, he would have to sit in for his recess.   There was also an issue where he had to sit in from recess because he lost his pencil.  I don’t blame his teacher – she was too busy cramming for a standardized test to remember he was only 5 and sitting still and shutting the eff up is sometimes difficult for someone at that age when their broken little brains are so busy not staying focused on mind numbing tasks.    Fearing our little flesh turd would eventually grow up thinking he was stupid because he failed to see the importance of nickel, nickel, dime worksheets by the dozens – we pulled him out.   Since that time, we’ve not done much.  He wired a large scale wiring schematic and developed an understanding of how electricity works.  He then, “completely on his own”, made comparisons of electrical circuits to the human brain.  I doubt however he thought of this completely on his own however – he probably learned it by sitting on his ass watching TV on one of his “I don’t give a crap days”.  After coming to this revelation – he decided he wanted to see a real brain – which I obliged by helping him dissect a turkey brain his cousin had shot this turkey season.  He also had many questions about the turkey’s heart, lungs, liver & intestines – then explained to his mother later that night at diner how his grilled salmon would be turned into poop after his body had absorbed all of the vital nutrients. Which made me feel good, because I was fearful that dissecting a turkey at such an early age might give him an unhealthy fascination with organs which would most definitely turn him into a serial killer some day.  We also discussed how wing structures obtain lift and showed him on the turkey’s wings how even nature uses this basic principle in flight.  He knew turkeys could fly btw, because he’s not a rough ridin' idiot.  Recently, (several months after the turkey dissection) while visiting a flight museum – he pointed out the shape of the wing and explained to a complete stranger how air moving faster over the top of the wing produced low pressure which in turn created higher pressure on the bottom of the wing which results in generating lift – like a turkey wing.   The stranger promptly told him that turkey’s couldn’t fly and my 6 year old son clown-suited him without calling him any names.  He simply explained that wild turkeys could fly because they weren’t fattened up like the ones you see on a farm.  He probably learned that on one of our weekly trips to a local farm where we buy free range eggs & whole un-pasteurized milk.  Anyway, this post is getting long enough and I’m sure I’ll get a couple of mindless :dnr: from some ape thumping his chest to show everyone his/her incredible reading comprehension. 
But here’s my final point directed towards you.  I got in this thread to share my opinion as the premise of the topic suggested public education is broken and needs fixing.  I agree and shared my opinion on why it’s broken.  I’m rather firm in my beliefs and I don’t feel the need to bow down to you.  I don’t see you as inferior and I don’t see myself as superior.  I’m okay with where my child is.  I’m completely okay with my feelings on this subject.  I’m completely okay with your thoughts on this subject.  If I resorted to name calling, please consider it tongue in cheek and much of what I post is satirical.  I firmly disagree with you and that’s okay.  I don’t see the purpose of extending a school year when the very foundation of the school system is broken.  It’s what people like to call “throwing money at a problem”  oops… suggesting additional spending pisses you off.   How about, beating a dead horse?  That do anything for you?

**No trolling**
I really enjoyed your post.  I think you do have some valuable insights about how to teach your child better.  To immerse your kid in the experiments, dissections, and complex discussions is what is suppose to happen in a good learning environment.  You cannot have true learning until you are able to reach kids in multiple ways with the content so that it progress to HOTS and doesn't become a simple exercise in regurgitation.  That is the problem with public school system today.  I felt like you were being too critical of teachers.  The simple fact is very little about the school system today is designed the way good teachers would make the system.  Its part of the reason why I'm not teaching now to be honest.  I'm half of the opinion that year round would be good, half loving long vacations.  Don't forget that year round school isn't extending the school years, but a reorganization of it. 

I react very negatively to the people on this board who talk about privatising certain aspects of our society because they don't understand how that aspect functions, what place it has in our society, and how selling it off to a bidder wont fix the problem.  There are a few critical areas where its scary how much the Republican party is willing to sellout America in the interest of their corporate masters. 

I would encourage you to make sure your kiddo has socialization opportunities for his development as well.  I would also encourage you to continuously re-examine your decision to stay out of public schools.  There are too many damn good teachers out there to miss out on opportunities. 

**end**

have fun raising your flesh turd
Quote from: OregonHawk
KU is right on par with Notre Dame ... when it comes to adding additional conference revenue

Quote from: Kim Carnes
Beer pro tip: never drink anything other than BL, coors, pbr, maybe a few others that I'm forgetting