excellent meltdown

[michigancat]

Franks fracking himself, imo.  He has been since he talked about "protecting the rim".  That's great and all, love me some blocked shots, but it's put us in terrible positions defensively which has led to our poor defensive rebounds, imo.  It's not that diffcult to get rebounds against us...Denis isn't going to box anyone out because once the shot goes up he's looking to get an outlet pass, we'll throw 2 guys to block the shot of whomever beat our guard off the dribble, so that's Denis, the guard getting beat, and two bigs who aren't rebounding....so WTF did Frank expect?  He's the one that put the emphasis on blocking shots.  

http://ow.ly/HLH7

Not sure he put the emphasis on blocking shots, unless you have seen a practice or quote somewhere i haven't.

Haven't been to practice, I just read newspapers and stuff.  I'm too lazy to go back and link the various articles prior to the start of the season which talked about this.  Here's one I quickly found.  He's also talked about it in the interviews he's done on radio as well.

http://cjonline.com/sports/basketball/2009-10-29/ksus_kelly_brings_new_york_flair

First and foremost, K-State is asking Kelly to be a post player. Last year's team lacked reliable scoring options in the frontcourt, and coach Frank Martin felt the Wildcats struggled to protect the rim.

"protecting the rim" means a lot more than "blocking shots" IMO.  And they need to do it smarter - the "shot blocker" or whoever should only be one person based on the floor.  I think when he talks about selfishness, a lot of it has to do with everyone wanting to be the hero and block shots every time instead of doing the less glamorous rotation or boxout.  JMO.

[catzacker]

As I said last week, I'm far more concerned about the issues we are having on offense, namely against zones and getting a maximum out of our post players.  

this is, imo, entirely due to frank not letting players play through struggles and immediately putting them on the bench when the f up defensively.  it's hard for us to get anything going on offense when (a) jamar is supended or (b) wally and kelly are sitting in frank's doghouse.  

frank has mind f*cked wally.  completely mind f*cked him.  

[michigancat]

I don't disagree w/ anything you said, but that doesn't change the fact that their system works in the long run.

if you're good with 1st round NIT exits, then yes, it works for you.

how do you judge their system to say that it works in the long run?

well, you can start w/ Huggs' track record.  He has 1 first round NIT loss in like a billion years coaching.  NCAA every other year.  Martin has no track record (at least one that includes a first round NIT loss), but you're saying he's basically the same coach as Huggins.  And his offensive and defensive numbers have been pretty good based on talent he had in his two full seasons.

[catzacker]

"protecting the rim" means a lot more than "blocking shots" IMO.  And they need to do it smarter - the "shot blocker" or whoever should only be one person based on the floor.  I think when he talks about selfishness, a lot of it has to do with everyone wanting to be the hero and block shots every time instead of doing the less glamorous rotation or boxout.  JMO.

Oh, I completely agree.  My point is that frank prolly said all of that, but all those dipsh*ts heard was "block the shot".  I mean, that's what it looks like.  So frank did a sh*tty job of coaching that. 

[EllToPay]

As I said last week, I'm far more concerned about the issues we are having on offense, namely against zones and getting a maximum out of our post players.  

this is, imo, entirely due to frank not letting players play through struggles and immediately putting them on the bench when the f up defensively.  it's hard for us to get anything going on offense when (a) jamar is supended or (b) wally and kelly are sitting in frank's doghouse.  

frank has mind f*cked wally.  completely mind f*cked him.  

Martavious, Wally and Rodney were still on the court practicing when I left Bramlage just after 11 p.m. There were no coaches on the floor with them. It appears as though they took the challenge on their own.

He'll be fine...

[ksu_FAN]

"protecting the rim" means a lot more than "blocking shots" IMO.  And they need to do it smarter - the "shot blocker" or whoever should only be one person based on the floor.  I think when he talks about selfishness, a lot of it has to do with everyone wanting to be the hero and block shots every time instead of doing the less glamorous rotation or boxout.  JMO.

Oh, I completely agree.  My point is that frank prolly said all of that, but all those dipsh*ts heard was "block the shot".  I mean, that's what it looks like.  So frank did a sh*tty job of coaching that. 

It looks like that in regard to fouling, but its hard to argue with the shooting numbers against us as Rusty has talked about (and this includes the terrible performances from last night and Ole Miss).  Teams are shooting the same %-age against us on 2 point shots as they are from behind the arc; 37.4%.  Holding teams to that number from inside the arc means that you are changing shots and forcing bad shots a lot. 

That said, shore up the rotations and keep guys on their feet and in better position leading to fewer fouls and IMO the philosophy is fine.  I think some people complain b/c they don't like the philosophy of defense, which is another issue entirely, but what we are trying to do in regard to "protecting the rim" isn't that far off right now.  I think there are much great issues for this staff to tackle to become a good team than this one.

[catdude33]

Our interior defense was bad last night because Vic was playing and Kelly and Sutton were not.  Vic's interior defense was some of the worst I have ever seen.  I mean, just horrible.  We'd have won by 25 if Kelly got Vic's minutes.  He's that bad.  imo.

[pissclams]

stretch to compare what huggins did at cinci to what he might have done at K-State.
rediculous stretch to compare huggins to martin in terms of coaching ability, even if they do run an identical defensive/offensive philosophy.  i bet if you asked a thousand coaches if they stressed a tough nose defense and a score at will transition game, that a thousand coaches would say yes.

this really is the 4th year that this "system" has been in place with these players and program.  i expected more.

i certainly hope the ceiling for this team is higher than what i'm starting to suspect it is, but at this point 1/4th the way through our season, I have no reason to believe it will be any different then the previous 3 years.  which is still better than anytime in the past 15, sadly.

but when you have a team that doesn't understand how to play good defense, proper floor spacing on the offensive end, can't make an entry pass into the paint, can't find the easy pass/score out of a double team, and relies on undersized streaky guards to carry your offense, you just won't go far.

[pwrcat1]

There is almost no movement on either side of the floor.  I just don't get that.  On offense we get guys just standing in the corners until Jake has to go to them and try and deliver a two foot pass.  We gotta start movin' and it has to be with a purpose.  Frank has got to get these guys to think a step ahead of the game.  Moving with a purpose is something that gets hammered into your brain from before hs ball, so it's weird that it seems so foreign to our guys.   

[michigancat]

stretch to compare what huggins did at cinci to what he might have done at K-State.
rediculous stretch to compare huggins to martin in terms of coaching ability, even if they do run an identical defensive/offensive philosophy.  i bet if you asked a thousand coaches if they stressed a tough nose defense and a score at will transition game, that a thousand coaches would say yes.

this really is the 4th year that this "system" has been in place with these players and program.  i expected more.

i certainly hope the ceiling for this team is higher than what i'm starting to suspect it is, but at this point 1/4th the way through our season, I have no reason to believe it will be any different then the previous 3 years.  which is still better than anytime in the past 15, sadly.

but when you have a team that doesn't understand how to play good defense, proper floor spacing on the offensive end, can't make an entry pass into the paint, can't find the easy pass/score out of a double team, and relies on undersized streaky guards to carry your offense, you just won't go far.

I would expect more if Huggins was still here, but he isn't.  I don't think anything more than a cup of coffee in the NCAA is a reasonable expectation for this roster.  Thinking we had a sweet 16 team is dumb.

[wildcats92]

So let me get this straight...what you are all saying is that we play bad D most of the time,  get outrebounded,  stand around on offense too much and when we do get going, Frank decides to make a sub at the wrong time...is that correct??? 

[1/64th]

So let me get this straight...what you are all saying is that we play bad D most of the time,  get outrebounded,  stand around on offense too much and when we do get going, Frank decides to make a sub at the wrong time...is that correct??? 

More or less, in a nutshell.   

[wildcats92]

So where do you lay the blame...the coaches or players or both???

So let me get this straight...what you are all saying is that we play bad D most of the time,  get outrebounded,  stand around on offense too much and when we do get going, Frank decides to make a sub at the wrong time...is that correct??? 

More or less, in a nutshell.   

[ksu_FAN]

but when you have a team that doesn't understand how to play good defense, proper floor spacing on the offensive end, can't make an entry pass into the paint, can't find the easy pass/score out of a double team, and relies on undersized streaky guards to carry your offense, you just won't go far.

This is the biggest key for this team IMO.  We did this last year b/c it was the way we had to play to win.  This year in theory we should have the talent to have a true inside scoring game.  Its going to take fixing the spacing/passing issues you mention, but it can be done, and IMO the responsibility is mainly on the bigs to figure it out and the staff to help them figure it out.  

To me this will be the difference between and underachieving 5-7 win Big 12 team and a successful 8-10 win Big 12 season (or even beyond that).  If we don't maximize our talent and ability in the post, we are going to have the same issues all year.

[pissclams]

I would expect more if Huggins was still here, but he isn't.  I don't think anything more than a cup of coffee in the NCAA is a reasonable expectation for this roster.  Thinking we had a sweet 16 team is dumb.

this roster?  you're actually going to blame how poorly we're playing on the roster?  

holy sh*t.

[wildcats92]

I agree with you KSU fan ..somebody has to get it across to these guys and last night would have been a good time to work out some of those issues..but I hope sitting the bigs works out for Frank...if not Frank needs to figure out how to get that point across in practice..because whatever he is saying isn't sinking in at all.

but when you have a team that doesn't understand how to play good defense, proper floor spacing on the offensive end, can't make an entry pass into the paint, can't find the easy pass/score out of a double team, and relies on undersized streaky guards to carry your offense, you just won't go far.

This is the biggest key for this team IMO.  We did this last year b/c it was the way we had to play to win.  This year in theory we should have the talent to have a true inside scoring game.  Its going to take fixing the spacing/passing issues you mention, but it can be done, and IMO the responsibility is mainly on the bigs to figure it out.  

To me this will be the difference between and underachieving 5-7 win Big 12 team and a successful 8-10 win Big 12 season (or even beyond that).  If we don't maximize our talent and ability in the post, we are going to have the same issues all year.

[steve dave]

I would expect more if Huggins was still here, but he isn't.  I don't think anything more than a cup of coffee in the NCAA is a reasonable expectation for this roster.  Thinking we had a sweet 16 team is dumb.

this roster?  you're actually going to blame how poorly we're playing on the roster?  

holy sh*t.

Maybe I'm misreading it but I don't think that's what he is saying at all. 

[michigancat]

I would expect more if Huggins was still here, but he isn't.  I don't think anything more than a cup of coffee in the NCAA is a reasonable expectation for this roster.  Thinking we had a sweet 16 team is dumb.

this roster?  you're actually going to blame how poorly we're playing on the roster?  

holy sh*t.

Are you talking about expectations for the season w-l record, or expectations of how pretty we look against FHSU?  2 different things.  And yeah, the roster has a lot to do with both (for different reasons), but I was really only talking about overall expectations of the program.

[pissclams]

This is the biggest key for this team IMO.  We did this last year b/c it was the way we had to play to win.  This year in theory we should have the talent to have a true inside scoring game.  Its going to take fixing the spacing/passing issues you mention, but it can be done, and IMO the responsibility is mainly on the bigs to figure it out.  

i think they all need to understand proper floor spacing, once the big guys learn where they're supposed to be on the floor and when they're supposed to be there, it's up to our guards to understand that they need to be far enough apart from each other on the perimeter and that they can't drag help defense over.

we should be running isolation to samuels and kelly all night, every night, and yet the guards give up on the post men before they should be.  the spacing just isn't there.  it looks like our court on the offensive end of the floor is a third the size it should be.  we just can't make it that easy for teams to guard us.

[EllToPay]

stretch to compare what huggins did at cinci to what he might have done at K-State.
rediculous stretch to compare huggins to martin in terms of coaching ability, even if they do run an identical defensive/offensive philosophy.  i bet if you asked a thousand coaches if they stressed a tough nose defense and a score at will transition game, that a thousand coaches would say yes.

this really is the 4th year that this "system" has been in place with these players and program.  i expected more.

i certainly hope the ceiling for this team is higher than what i'm starting to suspect it is, but at this point 1/4th the way through our season, I have no reason to believe it will be any different then the previous 3 years.  which is still better than anytime in the past 15, sadly.

but when you have a team that doesn't understand how to play good defense, proper floor spacing on the offensive end, can't make an entry pass into the paint, can't find the easy pass/score out of a double team, and relies on undersized streaky guards to carry your offense, you just won't go far.

I would expect more if Huggins was still here, but he isn't.  I don't think anything more than a cup of coffee in the NCAA is a reasonable expectation for this roster.  Thinking we had a sweet 16 team is dumb.

jfc, can't we wait until maybe three or so games into conference play before making this assumption?

jfc..

[fatty fat fat]

No Sweet Sixteen? 

[ksu_FAN]

This is the biggest key for this team IMO.  We did this last year b/c it was the way we had to play to win.  This year in theory we should have the talent to have a true inside scoring game.  Its going to take fixing the spacing/passing issues you mention, but it can be done, and IMO the responsibility is mainly on the bigs to figure it out.  

i think they all need to understand proper floor spacing, once the big guys learn where they're supposed to be on the floor and when they're supposed to be there, it's up to our guards to understand that they need to be far enough apart from each other on the perimeter and that they can't drag help defense over.

we should be running isolation to samuels and kelly all night, every night, and yet the guards give up on the post men before they should be.  the spacing just isn't there.  it looks like our court on the offensive end of the floor is a third the size it should be.  we just can't make it that easy for teams to guard us.

Agreed.  Completely.

[cas]

I agree we've looked sh*tty most games, I'm just not worried about it...yet.

Long season, and I'm a big picture guy, ya know?.

True that. Remember how bad we sucked at the beg. of conference play last season?

We truned that sh1t around and didn't have to play in wednesday.

[pissclams]

I agree we've looked sh*tty most games, I'm just not worried about it...yet.

Long season, and I'm a big picture guy, ya know?.

True that. Remember how bad we sucked at the beg. of conference play last season?

We truned that sh1t around and didn't have to play in wednesday.

cas, you have to be proud of your scott city kids last night.  i bet you shared a nut with them once or twice.

[steve dave]

I agree we've looked sh*tty most games, I'm just not worried about it...yet.

Long season, and I'm a big picture guy, ya know?.

True that. Remember how bad we sucked at the beg. of conference play last season?

We truned that sh1t around and didn't have to play in wednesday.

cas, you have to be proud of your scott city kids last night.  i bet you shared a nut with them once or twice.

bigdavefreeman shared some interesting analysis of their relative douche-baggyness in chat last night.  One sounds like an outstanding d00d while the other seems like a POS. 

[michigancat]

thinking about this some more, I don't think we looked nearly as "lost" last year as we do so far this year (despite the bad Iowa and Oregon losses last year).  The major difference is the main players last year were 6 returners, 2 newcomers.  This year, it's 4 returners and 5 or 6 newcomers.  Worse start, but higher potential this year.

IMO!

[ksu_FAN]

thinking about this some more, I don't think we looked nearly as "lost" last year as we do so far this year (despite the bad Iowa and Oregon losses last year).  The major difference is the main players last year were 6 returners, 2 newcomers.  This year, it's 4 returners and 5 or 6 newcomers.  Worse start, but higher potential this year.

IMO!

Well done.

[pissclams]

thinking about this some more, I don't think we looked nearly as "lost" last year as we do so far this year (despite the bad Iowa and Oregon losses last year).  The major difference is the main players last year were 6 returners, 2 newcomers.  This year, it's 4 returners and 5 or 6 newcomers.  Worse start, but higher potential this year.

IMO!

the guys going into last year had more to learn about the offense given it changed more between year 1 frank to year 2 frank (considering the loss of beasley and walker) then it did between year 2 frank and year 3 frank.

 

[michigancat]

thinking about this some more, I don't think we looked nearly as "lost" last year as we do so far this year (despite the bad Iowa and Oregon losses last year).  The major difference is the main players last year were 6 returners, 2 newcomers.  This year, it's 4 returners and 5 or 6 newcomers.  Worse start, but higher potential this year.

IMO!

the guys going into last year had more to learn about the offense given it changed more between year 1 frank to year 2 frank (considering the loss of beasley and walker) then it did between year 2 frank and year 3 frank.

 

well, the offense against Dayton and Miss was slightly better than it was against Iowa, Kentucky and Oregon last year. 

but I was mainly referring to defense/being soft, where IMO most of the cluelessness resides.

[catzacker]

thinking about this some more, I don't think we looked nearly as "lost" last year as we do so far this year (despite the bad Iowa and Oregon losses last year).  The major difference is the main players last year were 6 returners, 2 newcomers.  This year, it's 4 returners and 5 or 6 newcomers.  Worse start, but higher potential this year.

IMO!

won't we basically have to worry about "newcomers" like every year?  next year I suppose we don't, so I wonder what our exceuses will be next year at this time. "It's going to take time for Freddy to adjust"...."it's been a few years since Pullen had to run the point, he's just getting used to it"..."it's only Wally's second year"...."Losing Kelly last year really set us back".

or maybe Frank just needs to learn how to bring a team along better?   
also getting lottery picks wil help.