ranking '07 KSU talent at different unit vs. year's past..

[The Manhatter]

I'm going back to '97 for the last 10 years.  Just basing it on play (speculation for '07), talent, depth at some of the units. 

I'll post this and then modify this one to add other units as we go.  Discuss. 

QB:
1. 1998 - Bishop's senior year
2. 2003 - Ell Sr.
3. 2000 - Beasley Sr.
4. 1997 - Bishop Jr.
5. 2002 - Ell Jr
6. 2007 - Freeman Soph.
7. 1999 - Beasley Jr.
8. 2004 - Meier Soph.
9. 2006 - Freeman Fr.
10. 2005 - Evridge Fr.
11. 2001 - Ell Soph.


RB:
1. 2001 - Scobey and Rock Srs., Joe Hall, Sproles (Fr.) ..all we could do was run on offense
2. 2002 - Sproles Soph, Daniel Davis, plenty of fullbacks...finished very high nationally in rush Off
3. 2000 - Scobey Jr, Rock Jr, David Allen Sr, Claybon and the freshman Rashads
4. 1998 - Hickson Sr., Murphy Jr., Allen Soph., Charles Sr., Goolsby
5. 1999 - Murphy Sr., Allen Jr., Hall Jr, Claybon
6. 2007 - JJ Sr, Leon Soph, Woods, etc.
7. 2003 - Sproles Jr, Vick, Saba...who else did we have running the ball at TB in '03?
8. 2004 - Sproles Sr....nobody else really as Vick and Saba weight getting out of control
9. 2006 - Leon Fr, JJ Jr, Clayton Sr
10. 1997 - Hickson, Goolsby...not that threatening
11. 2005 - Clayton, Alsup...it was ugly

WR:
1. 2000 - Morgan Sr, Lockett Jr, Wesley Sr, Clark Jr..great group..not as deep as some others but Q and Lock
2. 1998 - McDonald Sr, Lockett Fr, Peries Sr...not as deep as a few others but both McD and Lock went 4 1K
3. 2003 - Terry Sr, Dennis Jr, Polite Jr, Moreira Fr..highly productive receiving corps on a run oriented off
4. 2002 - Terry Jr, Taco Sr, Evans Jr, Dennis Soph, Polite Soph..maybe the deepest quality wise?
5. 2007 - Jordy Sr, Pierce Jr, Murphy Soph, Lamark Fr, Hogan Fr, Wilson Jr..could be most talented overall and could move up list but we'll see
6. 1999 - Morgan Jr, Lockett Soph, Wesley Jr, Clark Soph..obviously top two talented but production down for Lockett
7. 2005 - Jordy Soph, Yamon Jr, Moreira Jr..not as many pass yards as '06 but not the health issues
8. 2006 - Jordy Jr, Yamon Sr, Moreira Sr, Gonzales Jr...Moreira and Yamon were good when healthy
9. 1997 - McDonald Jr, Burnett Jr, Peries Jr
10. 2004 - Moreira Soph, Yamon Soph, Dennis Sr, Polite Sr
11. 2001 - Lockett Sr, Clark Sr, Lloyd Sr, Taco Jr, Evans Soph..terrible season. Taco blew a RS, Clark not healthy, and 5-7 Lock was feature receiver


TE:
1. 1998 - Swift Sr, Meier Soph
2. 1997 - Swift Jr
3. 2000 - Meier Sr, Warren Jr
4. 2003 - Casey Jr, Hill Sr
5. 1999 - Meier Jr
6. 2007 - Norwood, Mastrud
7. 2004 - Casey Sr, Norwood Fr
8. 2006 - Norwood Jr, Mastrud Fr
9. 2002 - Hill Jr
10. 2005 - Norwood Soph
11. 2001 - Warren Sr


OL
1. 2003 - Doty Jr, Lilja Sr, Leckey Sr, Johnson Jr, Clary Soph
2. 1997 - Weiner Sr, Hanley Jr, Jacox Sr, Martin Jr, Young Sr...most talented..toss-up between '97 and '03
3. 2000 - Stephenson Sr, Eby Jr, Cummins Sr, Robertson Jr, Barnett Jr
4. 2002 - Barnett Sr, Leckey Jr, Washington Sr, Johnson Soph, Miller Sr
5. 1998 - Young Sr, Hanley Jr, Cummins Soph, Martin Sr, Barnett Fr
6. 1999 - Stephenson Jr, Moses Sr, Cummins Jr, Robertson Soph, McIntosh Sr
7. 2007 - Alesana Jr, Meyer Soph, Bedore Jr, Robinson Sr, Stringer Soph
8. 2001 - Martin Sr, Leckey Soph, Eby Sr, Robertson Jr, Honarchian Sr..behind '07 only due to tons of injuries and poor pass protection
9. 2006 - Wafford Sr, Handy Soph, Bedore Fr, Robinson Jr, Stringer Fr
10. 2004 - Doty Sr, Wooldridge Jr, Johnson Sr, Weiner Jr, Clary Jr
11. 2005 - Clary Sr, Hafferty Soph, Bedore Fr, Handy Fr, Wafford Jr


DE:
1. 1999: Howard Sr, Beisel Jr, Johnson Jr, Williams Fr
2. 2002: Shull Jr, Bryant Sr, Williams Sr, Houchin Jr
3. 2000: Beisel Sr, Johnson Sr, Williams Soph, Shull Fr
4. 2007: Jackson Sr, Campbell Jr, Abana Jr, Manu Sr, Guidry Fr
5. 1998: Howard Jr, Clements Sr, Beisel Soph, Johnson Soph
6. 2003: Shull Sr, Houchin Sr, Huntley Jr, Edmonds Soph
7. 2006: Campbell Soph, Jackson Jr, Childs Fr, Manu Jr
8. 2004: Huntley Sr, Edmonds Jr, George Jr, Seiler Soph
9. 2001: Shull Soph, Bryant Jr, Williams Jr, Houchin Soph
10. 1997: Howard Soph, Clements Jr, Beisel Fr
11. 2005: George Sr, Seiler Jr, Burch Jr


DT
1. 2002 - Reese Sr, White Sr, Montgomery Jr, Bulman Soph, Everly Sr
2. 2000 - Fatafehi Sr, Robinson Jr, Holloman Sr, Togiai Jr
3. 1999 - Fatafehi Jr, Holloman Jr, Robinson Soph
4. 2003 - Montgomery Sr, Berry Jr, Marso Soph, Echols Fr
5. 1997 - Rowe Jr, McIntosh Soph, Evans Sr
6. 2001 - Reese Jr, Montgomery Soph, White Jr, Togiai Sr
7. 2006 - Echols Sr, Moran Soph, Seiler Sr, Cline Jr
8. 1998 - McIntosh Jr, Robinson Fr, Rowe Sr
9. 2007 - Moran Jr, Cline Sr, Crews Fr, Stewart Fr
10. 2004 - Berry Sr, Marso Jr, Echols Soph, Bulman Sr
11. 2005 - Echols Jr, Marso Sr, Moran Fr, Cline Soph

LB
1. 2002 - Pierce Jr, Buhl Jr, Hickman Jr
2. 1998 - Kelly Sr, Simoneau Jr, Ochs Sr, Leber Fr
3. 2001 - Leber Sr, Pierce Soph, Buhl Soph
4. 1997 - Kelly Jr, Simoneau Soph, Ochs Jr
5. 1999 - Simoneau Sr, Leber Soph, Litton Sr
6. 2006 - Diles Sr, Archer Sr, Walker Soph
7. 2003 - Buhl Sr, Hickman Sr, Sims Soph, Butler Soph
8. 2000 - Leber Jr, Pierce Fr, Kazar Sr, Lott Jr, Williams Sr
9. 2007 - Walker Jr, Roland Sr, Patterson Jr, Childs Soph, Moore Jr, Houlik Soph
10. 2005 - Archer Jr, Sims Sr, Diles Jr, Walker Fr
11. 2004 - Sims Jr, Archer Soph, Simmons Jr, Butler Jr

CB:
1. 2000 - Butler Jr, Carter Sr, Newman Soph, Faggins Jr, Tyler Sr
2. 1999 - Butler Soph, Carter Sr, Newman Fr, Tyler Jr
3. 2002 - Newman Sr, Jordan Jr, Dunnigan Sr
4. 2007 - Moore Soph, Baldwin Sr, McKinney Sr, Garvin Sr, Cheatham Jr
5. 2001 - Newman Jr, Faggins Sr, Walker Jr
6. 2006 - Baldwin Jr, Moore Fr, McKinney Jr, Garvin Jr, Anderson Jr
7. 1998 - Carter Soph, Butler Fr, Neasman Sr, Black Sr
8. 2003 - Jordan Sr, Williams Jr, Lavender Jr, Rose Jr
9. 1997 - Neasman Jr, Denmark Sr, Carter Fr
10. 2005 - Baldwin Soph, Garvin Soph, McKinney Soph, Davis Sr
11. 2004 - Williams Sr, Lavender Sr, Rose Sr

Safety:
1. 1999 - Chapman Sr, Cooper Jr, McGraw Soph, Proctor Soph
2. 2000 - McGraw Jr, Cooper Sr, Yates Jr, Proctor Jr
3. 1998 - Chapman Jr, Cooper Soph, McGraw Fr
4. 2003 - Washington Sr, Tetuan Soph, McGill Sr
5. 2001 - McGraw Sr, Proctor Sr, Yates Sr, Washington Soph
6. 2007 - Watts Sr, Chandler Jr, Herndon Soph, Erker Jr
7. 2002 - Washington Jr, McGill Jr, Tetuan Fr
8. 2006 - Watts Jr, Williams Sr, Erker Soph, Herndon Fr, Hollis Fr
9. 1997 - Chapman Soph, Cooper Fr, ? JC from Garden City CC
10. 2005 - Watts Soph, Porter Sr, Williams Jr, Tetuan Sr
11. 2004 - Tetuan Jr, Jones Jr, Porter Jr, Mack Soph

[Pett]

QB:
1. 1998 - Bishop's senior year
2. 2003 - Ell Sr.
3. 2000 - Beasley Sr.
4. 1997 - Bishop Jr.
5. 2002 - Ell Jr
6. 2007 - Freeman Soph.
7. 1999 - Beasley Jr.
8. 2004 - Meier Soph.
9. 2006 - Freeman Fr.
10. 2005 - Evridge Fr.
11. 2001 - Ell Soph.

IMO I'm guessing and hoping that Freeman as a Soph. will be better than Ell as a Jr.

Overall QB rating better for JF than Ell, mostly adding in passing yards/TD's > rushing yards/TD's

But I really like this topic, keep it coming Hatter.

[The Manhatter]

IMO I'm guessing and hoping that Freeman as a Soph. will be better than Ell as a Jr.

Overall QB rating better for JF than Ell, mostly adding in passing yards/TD's > rushing yards/TD's

But I really like this topic, keep it coming Hatter.

I would hope that to be the case BUT Ell had a pretty good year.  He was just a cool game manager by his junior year and his production running the ball...wow.  He hit big plays in the passing game (17.2 yards per completion) and KSU threw 14 TD's to 6 int's.

[fatty fat fat]

ETT ALERT!

Mine (for QB)

QB:
1. 1998 - Bishop's senior year
2. 2003 - Ell Sr.
3. 2000 - Beasley Sr.
4. 2002 - Ell Jr
5. 2007 - Freeman Soph
6. 1997 - Bishop Jr.
7. 1999 - Beasley Jr.
8. 2006 - Freeman Fr.
9. 2004 - Meier/Webb Soph.
10. 2005 - Evridge/Webb Fr.
11. 2001 - Ell/Dunn Soph.

[Pett]

He hit big plays in the passing game (17.2 yards per completion) and KSU threw 14 TD's to 6 int's.

True, and he barely had anything to work with at the WR position. He made Taco look much better than he actually was in '02 (Taco was good, but Ell just made him look 10x better.)

[cireksu]

Roberson's Junior year was incredibly efficient, with the way we ran the ball our passing game was just effective enough, terry, wallace and polite were terrible route runners.

[Fledermaus]

2003 RBs -- Sproles went for almost 2000 yards, and we were top 10 in team rushing. 
Can't see the 2007 group doing better than that...

[KSU4ME]

ETT ALERT!

Mine (for QB)

QB:
1. 1998 - Bishop's senior year
2. 2003 - Ell Sr.
3. 2000 - Beasley Sr.
4. 2002 - Ell Jr
5. 2007 - Freeman Soph
6. 1997 - Bishop Jr.
7. 1999 - Beasley Jr.
8. 2006 - Freeman Fr.
9. 2004 - Meier/Webb Soph.
10. 2005 - Evridge/Webb Fr.
11. 2001 - Ell/Dunn Soph.

Ell JR definitely > Bishop JR

The bottom 3 on that list = 

[Pete]

ETT ALERT!

Mine (for QB)

QB:
1. 1998 - Bishop's senior year
2. 2003 - Ell Sr.
3. 2000 - Beasley Sr.
4. 2002 - Ell Jr
5. 2007 - Freeman Soph
6. 1997 - Bishop Jr.
7. 1999 - Beasley Jr.
8. 2006 - Freeman Fr.
9. 2004 - Meier/Webb Soph.
10. 2005 - Evridge/Webb Fr.
11. 2001 - Ell/Dunn Soph.

Wow, you have really, really high expectations for Josh.  I hope to God you are right, but I think that is nuts.

QB:
1. 1998 - Bishop's senior year
2. 2003 - Ell Sr.
3. 2000 - Beasley Sr.
4. 2002 - Ell Jr
5. 1997 - Bishop Jr.
6. 1999 - Beasley Jr.
7. 2007 - Freeman Soph
8. 2006 - Freeman Fr.
9. 2004 - Meier/Webb Soph.
10. 2005 - Evridge/Webb Fr.
11. 2001 - Ell/Dunn Soph.

I don't see anyway you can put 2007 Josh above 1997 Bishop.  The Fiesta Bowl alone should seperate the two.

[cas]

ETT ALERT!

Mine (for QB)

QB:
1. 1998 - Bishop's senior year
2. 2003 - Ell Sr.
3. 2000 - Beasley Sr.
4. 2002 - Ell Jr
5. 2007 - Freeman Soph
6. 1997 - Bishop Jr.
7. 1999 - Beasley Jr.
8. 2006 - Freeman Fr.
9. 2004 - Meier/Webb Soph.
10. 2005 - Evridge/Webb Fr.
11. 2001 - Ell/Dunn Soph.

Wow, you have really, really high expectations for Josh.  I hope to God you are right, but I think that is nuts.

QB:
1. 1998 - Bishop's senior year
2. 2003 - Ell Sr.
3. 2000 - Beasley Sr.
4. 2002 - Ell Jr
5. 1997 - Bishop Jr.
6. 1999 - Beasley Jr.
7. 2007 - Freeman Soph
8. 2006 - Freeman Fr.
9. 2004 - Meier/Webb Soph.
10. 2005 - Evridge/Webb Fr.
11. 2001 - Ell/Dunn Soph.

I don't see anyway you can put 2007 Josh above 1997 Bishop.  The Fiesta Bowl alone should seperate the two.

OK, I can agree with that if you look at Freeman in the Texas game.

[catzacker]

Judging by Hatter's speculation on our current talent, you'd think we were going to be a 10 win team.   I don't know how any grouping could be placed above any team from 97-03, with the exception of some '01 offensive rankings.  I assume those rankings separate "talent" from "results"?

[KSU4ME]

No, Hatter is comparing '97 - '06 results to the 2007 season results.

 

[catzacker]

No, Hatter is comparing '97 - '06 results to the 2007 season results.

 

What I'm saying is that based on the results of '06 and projecting to '07, how the hell could you rank anyone higher than any group (short of maybe the 01 offensive group) from 97-03?  But from a talent standpoint, you could make a better argument about projecting to '07. 

[KSU4ME]

Because having one unit ranked ahead doesn't mean you will meet or exceed that entire team's results.

Why is this hard for you?

And if you look at it, he is pretty much saying that that '97-03 were more talented when you average it out, with the exception of '01. 

And even that ignores the two biggest weaknesses of this team relative to those years:  DT and LB.

[catzacker]

Because having one unit ranked ahead doesn't mean you will meet or exceed that entire team's results.

Why is this hard for you?

And if you look at it, he is pretty much saying that that '97-03 were more talented when you average it out, with the exception of '01. 

And even that ignores the two biggest weaknesses of this team relative to those years:  DT and LB.

If you take a look at ALL of the 07 projections you'll see the following:

QB: ahead of 98, 01
RB: ahead of 03, 97
WR: ahead of 99, 97
TE: ahead of 02
OL: ahead of 01
DE: ahead of 97, 98, 01, 03

....when you take the entire projections into account, not just one grouping, and see how they are projected ahead of some teams that had good results on the field, that would lead you to believe that we are super talented and should win 10 games.  This is why these rankings are so gay.

[KSU4ME]

If you take a look at ALL of the 07 projections you'll see the following:

QB: ahead of 98, 01
RB: ahead of 03, 97
WR: ahead of 99, 97
TE: ahead of 02
OL: ahead of 01
DE: ahead of 97, 98, 01, 03

....when you take the entire projections into account, not just one grouping, and see how they are projected ahead of some teams that had good results on the field, that would lead you to believe that we are super talented and should win 10 games.  This is why these rankings are so gay.

As I said, when you average out the rankings among those teams you see that talent wise the only team we're ahead of is '01.  And that wasn't a 10 win team, it was a six win team. 

Look at what you posted, even that shows us at the bottom end of the group for all categories except DE!

And it ignores two critical positions, LB and DT.  What it is saying is that if you ignore LB and DT, this team is comparable in overall talent to '97, and better than '01.

Ok, how is that so unreasonable? 

Amazing that you completely ignored the facts I posted to continue your drivel.  If you look at the facts you can easily see why what Manhatter posted is not unreasonable.

And also, none of those teams opened at Auburn, and only the '01 team had a non-con roadie that compares to FSU.

[catzacker]

I guess I disagree that we "average" out to ahead of the '01 squad.  It goes back to projecting 07 based on 06 "results" rather than 06 talent.  Take those rankings and pretend you're going into the '02 season....If you would have done this you should have projected another crappy year, if not worse.  This is why I think "talent" rankings are gay. 

[ksuno1stunner]

I guess I disagree that we "average" out to ahead of the '01 squad.  It goes back to projecting 07 based on 06 "results" rather than 06 talent.  Take those rankings and pretend you're going into the '02 season....If you would have done this you should have projected another crappy year, if not worse.  This is why I think "talent" rankings are gay. 

 

[KSU4ME]

I guess I disagree that we "average" out to ahead of the '01 squad.  It goes back to projecting 07 based on 06 "results" rather than 06 talent.  Take those rankings and pretend you're going into the '02 season....If you would have done this you should have projected another crappy year, if not worse.  This is why I think "talent" rankings are gay. 

 

QFT

[catzacker]

I guess I disagree that we "average" out to ahead of the '01 squad.  It goes back to projecting 07 based on 06 "results" rather than 06 talent.  Take those rankings and pretend you're going into the '02 season....If you would have done this you should have projected another crappy year, if not worse.  This is why I think "talent" rankings are gay. 

KSU4ME is a douche

QFT

[Trog]

I guess I disagree that we "average" out to ahead of the '01 squad.  It goes back to projecting 07 based on 06 "results" rather than 06 talent.  Take those rankings and pretend you're going into the '02 season....If you would have done this you should have projected another crappy year, if not worse.  This is why I think "talent" rankings are gay. 

lighten up.  It is the summer.  Disagree with the individual rankings, but these projections do make for some discussion on the football board.  If you hate it so much stay off the board, until the season starts as it pretty much is speculation all summer long. 

[catzacker]

I guess I disagree that we "average" out to ahead of the '01 squad.  It goes back to projecting 07 based on 06 "results" rather than 06 talent.  Take those rankings and pretend you're going into the '02 season....If you would have done this you should have projected another crappy year, if not worse.  This is why I think "talent" rankings are gay. 

lighten up.  It is the summer.  Disagree with the individual rankings, but these projections do make for some discussion on the football board.  If you hate it so much stay off the board, until the season starts as it pretty much is speculation all summer long. 

I thought I was disagreeing with the rankings.  But thanks for the pointers.

[The Manhatter]

and it's done...fire away.

[The Manhatter]

Judging by Hatter's speculation on our current talent, you'd think we were going to be a 10 win team.   I don't know how any grouping could be placed above any team from 97-03, with the exception of some '01 offensive rankings.  I assume those rankings separate "talent" from "results"?

that is BS.

our schedule is 10x tougher than most of the schedules those teams faced.  Kansas and Mizzou are better than they were....Nebraska, while not what they were in 90's and early 2000's, is a solid program right now.  Iowa State...we'll see.  They are definitely better than 97-98..prolly about where they were in 99.  But the South is much tougher. Auburn is definitely better than any OOC w/ the exception of '02 SC.

If you think the individual units on all of those teams were better..you're crazy.  Forget the entire team...look at individual units.  Just how good were some of those individual units?  Some people act like we don't have any talent or depth now...that is hilarious.

[fatty fat fat]

Kansas and Mizzou are better than they were

Yeah! Because those 97-03 teams would have so much trouble with those elite squads!

 


 

[KSU4ME]

Just one more legit DT on that '98 defense....

Was it Rowe or Robinson that was dinged up at the end of the year?

[Pett]

DT
1. 2002 - Reese Sr, White Sr, Montgomery Jr, Bulman Soph, Everly Sr
2. 2000 - Fatafehi Sr, Robinson Jr, Holloman Sr, Togiai Jr
3. 1999 - Fatafehi Jr, Holloman Jr, Robinson Soph
4. 2003 - Montgomery Sr, Berry Jr, Marso Soph, Echols Fr
5. 1997 - Rowe Jr, McIntosh Soph, Evans Sr
6. 2001 - Reese Jr, Montgomery Soph, White Jr, Togiai Sr
7. 2006 - Echols Sr, Moran Soph, Seiler Sr, Cline Jr
8. 1998 - McIntosh Jr, Robinson Fr, Rowe Sr
9. 2007 - Moran Jr, Cline Sr, Crews Fr, Stewart Fr
10. 2004 - Berry Sr, Marso Jr, Echols Soph, Bulman Sr
11. 2005 - Echols Jr, Marso Sr, Moran Fr, Cline Soph

Thank god for the 3-4.

[The Manhatter]

DT
1. 2002 - Reese Sr, White Sr, Montgomery Jr, Bulman Soph, Everly Sr
2. 2000 - Fatafehi Sr, Robinson Jr, Holloman Sr, Togiai Jr
3. 1999 - Fatafehi Jr, Holloman Jr, Robinson Soph
4. 2003 - Montgomery Sr, Berry Jr, Marso Soph, Echols Fr
5. 1997 - Rowe Jr, McIntosh Soph, Evans Sr
6. 2001 - Reese Jr, Montgomery Soph, White Jr, Togiai Sr
7. 2006 - Echols Sr, Moran Soph, Seiler Sr, Cline Jr
8. 1998 - McIntosh Jr, Robinson Fr, Rowe Sr
9. 2007 - Moran Jr, Cline Sr, Crews Fr, Stewart Fr
10. 2004 - Berry Sr, Marso Jr, Echols Soph, Bulman Sr
11. 2005 - Echols Jr, Marso Sr, Moran Fr, Cline Soph

Thank god for the 3-4.

I am more optimistic about that group than the ranking suggests but until proven otherwise by the two freshman...well, there you go.  I think Stewart's going to be a good one...when that happens I don't know but I really like him.

LB was maddening to rank.  I do like our LB's now...I think the depth is solid...problem is that all of those units ranked ahead of '07 were damn good for the most part. 

[The Manhatter]

Kansas and Mizzou are better than they were

Yeah! Because those 97-03 teams would have so much trouble with those elite squads!

 


 

I guess I was insinuating '97-'00 and '02-'03 would have trouble w/ those squads. 

'01 would definitely have their hands full.

All I was getting at is that some of the teams...as good as their record was...I don't think some of them were quite as good as their record suggests or how we remembered them.  Part of it had to do w/ the scheduling.  But oh well...

I do think it's funny how we remember some of those teams...it's like none of those teams had weaknesses or that we were better at every position on every one of those squads vs. today's team. 

[catzacker]

Because I'm a big nerd, I took Hatter's rankings and assigned the ranking as a point, then took the total talent points for each year and then ranked the teams by talent points (the lowest score is the best).  Here's how it played out in the Hatter Talent Points System (HTPS):

Year   HTPS
2000   29
2002   38
1998   38
1999   41
2003   46
2007   62
1997   69
2001   70
2006   77
2004   94
2005   101

...it's actually fairly accurate, imo, which is surprising.  So I take back all the mean things I said.  Although what it really says is, if you got a good record, you're probably a talented team.