Perhaps I've been wrong about Jeff Martin....

[michigancat]

By the way, talking about blowing things out of proportion.  I can't believe that Prince is taking the kind of heat on this board about those comments he made at the Catbacker's event.  And you people say that I'm the one that is just trying to find something to bitch about.  If Martin takes offense to those comments then he has bigger issues than I even think he does.  If Butler takes offense, well then Butler was a hopeless case to begin with and you have to know that Prince knows it.

The difference is that you're complaining about an irrelevant beat writer and we're complaining about the most recognizable figure in our university publicly ridiculing the most trusted adviser of two of the best recruits in the country in his home town.

I honestly don't understand why people are upset with Butler/Martin and not Prince.  (Well, I do, but their reasons are kind of dumb.)

[ScubaSteve]

The difference is that you're complaining about an irrelevant beat writer and we're complaining about the most recognizable figure in our university publicly ridiculing the most trusted adviser of two of the best recruits in the country in his home town.

I honestly don't understand why people are upset with Butler/Martin and not Prince.  (Well, I do, but their reasons are kind of dumb.)

Well... because I really would like to see KSU and Ron Prince succeed and that irrelevant beat writer, Butler, and you, I guess, would rather sabotage his efforts.  Who's dumb?

[michigancat]

Well... because I really would like to see KSU and Ron Prince succeed and that irrelevant beat writer, Butler, and you, I guess, would rather sabotage his efforts.

Um, no.  I want Prince to make Butler happy and keep quality Wichita recruits in-state (now, and in the future).  Prince acting like a complete ass will do more to damage that than Jeffrey Martin.

Who's dumb?

Ron.

[ScubaSteve]

Well... because I really would like to see KSU and Ron Prince succeed and that irrelevant beat writer, Butler, and you, I guess, would rather sabotage his efforts.

Um, no.  I want Prince to make Butler happy and keep quality Wichita recruits in-state (now, and in the future).  Prince acting like a complete ass will do more to damage that than Jeffrey Martin.

Who's dumb?

Ron.

Unbelievable that you believe that Ron would not like Butler to be happy.  Who's dumb?  You.

[catzacker]

The difference is that you're complaining about an irrelevant beat writer and we're complaining about the most recognizable figure in our university publicly ridiculing the most trusted adviser of two of the best recruits in the country in his home town.

I honestly don't understand why people are upset with Butler/Martin and not Prince.  (Well, I do, but their reasons are kind of dumb.)

Well... because I really would like to see KSU and Ron Prince succeed and that irrelevant beat writer, Butler, and you, I guess, would rather sabotage his efforts.  Who's dumb?

Oh dear god....that is an incredibly retarded statement.  Whether or not Butler is right or Martin is right is irrelevant....what's relevant is that Butler feels a certian way (which we found out in Martin's notebook) and that obviously means that Prince has not done enough to make the handler of local elite talent happy and compound that with Prince taking some shots at Butler (I could care less about the shots at Martin) really isn't a smart idea if we want to land that local elite talent.  

I mean, everyone can look at the "facts" of the situation and say that what Butler is saying is factually wrong (in terms of # of KS kids on the roster), but that's really not the point.  

[michigancat]

Well... because I really would like to see KSU and Ron Prince succeed and that irrelevant beat writer, Butler, and you, I guess, would rather sabotage his efforts.

Um, no.  I want Prince to make Butler happy and keep quality Wichita recruits in-state (now, and in the future).  Prince acting like a complete ass will do more to damage that than Jeffrey Martin.

Who's dumb?

Ron.

Unbelievable that you believe that Ron would not like Butler to be happy.  Who's dumb?  You.

Yeah, his "thankfully I have Brian Butler to tell me how to recruit" comment sounds like the foundation of a long, fruitful relationship to me.

[michigancat]

The difference is that you're complaining about an irrelevant beat writer and we're complaining about the most recognizable figure in our university publicly ridiculing the most trusted adviser of two of the best recruits in the country in his home town.

I honestly don't understand why people are upset with Butler/Martin and not Prince.  (Well, I do, but their reasons are kind of dumb.)

Well... because I really would like to see KSU and Ron Prince succeed and that irrelevant beat writer, Butler, and you, I guess, would rather sabotage his efforts.  Who's dumb?

Oh dear god....that is an incredibly retarded statement.  Whether or not Butler is right or Martin is right is irrelevant....what's relevant is that Butler feels a certian way (which we found out in Martin's notebook) and that obviously means that Prince has not done enough to make the handler of local elite talent happy and compound that with Prince taking some shots at Butler (I could care less about the shots at Martin) really isn't a smart idea if we want to land that local elite talent. 

I mean, everyone can look at the "facts" of the situation and say that what Butler is saying is factually wrong (in terms of # of KS kids on the roster), but that's really not the point. 

Hey!  Someone gets it!

[ScubaSteve]

Yeah, his "thankfully I have Brian Butler to tell me how to recruit" comment sounds like the foundation of a long, fruitful relationship to me.

Connect the dots Rusty.  Don't be an idiot.

[michigancat]

Yeah, his "thankfully I have Brian Butler to tell me how to recruit" comment sounds like the foundation of a long, fruitful relationship to me.

Connect the dots Rusty.  Don't be an idiot.

Connect them for me.  Please, I'd love to hear you justify Ron's Butler comments.

[ScubaSteve]

Yeah, his "thankfully I have Brian Butler to tell me how to recruit" comment sounds like the foundation of a long, fruitful relationship to me.

Connect the dots Rusty.  Don't be an idiot.

Connect them for me.  Please, I'd love to hear you justify Ron's Butler comments.

Obviously, Prince knows that Butler is a lost cause.  He's going to recruit these players without him.  He needs to discredit him and his comments as not to undermine his efforts with the rest of Kansas.  I have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever.  Let's just see how many DI scholarship offers outside of Brown and maybe Harper (a kid without at position) Butler gets these players through his little road trip.  I'm guessing none.  Face it, what other kid is there that's good enough to warrant the attention of the type of schools he's taking them to.  Butler is going to need Prince.  There aren't that many Brown's in Wichita.  Not to mention kids like the Browns don't need Butler anyway.  Butler is trying to strong-arm Ron Prince into taking HIS players.  He needs HIS players to get DI scholarships or his little business goes down the toilet.  He's more apt to get them from ku and KSU than Georgia and Florida.  Either that or he's parlaying the Browns into a better opportunity.  If that's the case he's not going to be around anyway.  You can use this as another reason to bash Prince if you want, but the Brown's were/are going to come to KSU or not.  It's obvious that Butler doesn't want them at KSU for whatever reason.  I don't see where kissing his ass this point will do any good whatsoever.

[KSU4ME]

This place is slowly starting to make PowertardCentral look comparatively sane.  The video productions are the saving grace. 

Rusty - Do you think Ron's comments had any significant impact on Butler's opinion or perception?  Do you really think there was a change that came out of the comments on Butler's end?  Was he steering kids to KSU before, and now isn't? 

If you want Butler's perception to change, you have to get him to recognize the errors inherent in his thinking that forms the perception.  I don't think Prince, or anyone else, has done this at all.  That's the biggest reason I don't get Prince's comments, and think they were all together non-constructive.  He could have simply trotted out facts and left the personal jabs out.

Perception is not reality.  The idea that it is reality is just the crutch that those incapable and/or unwilling to discuss reality trot out to defend their illogical actions.

[KSt8er]

Yeah, his "thankfully I have Brian Butler to tell me how to recruit" comment sounds like the foundation of a long, fruitful relationship to me.

Connect the dots Rusty.  Don't be an idiot.

Connect them for me.  Please, I'd love to hear you justify Ron's Butler comments.

Obviously, Prince knows that Butler is a lost cause.  He's going to recruit these players without him.  He needs to discredit him and his comments as not to undermine his efforts with the rest of Kansas.  I have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever.  Let's just see how many DI scholarship offers outside of Brown and maybe Harper (a kid without at position) Butler gets these players through his little road trip.  I'm guessing none.  Face it, what other kid is there that's good enough to warrant the attention of the type of schools he's taking them to.  Butler is going to need Prince.  There aren't that many Brown's in Wichita.  Not to mention kids like the Browns don't need Butler anyway.  Butler is trying to strong-arm Ron Prince into taking HIS players.  He needs HIS players to get DI scholarships or his little business goes down the toilet.  He's more apt to get them from ku and KSU than Georgia and Florida.  Either that or he's parlaying the Browns into a better opportunity.  If that's the case he's not going to be around anyway.  You can use this as another reason to bash Prince if you want, but the Brown's were/are going to come to KSU or not.  It's obvious that Butler doesn't want them at KSU for whatever reason.  I don't see where kissing his ass this point will do any good whatsoever.

Dead on, dead f'ing on.

[michigancat]

Obviously, Prince knows that Butler is a lost cause.  He's going to recruit these players without him. 

That's just foolish.

I don't see where kissing his ass this point will do any good whatsoever.

Prince is in the ass-kissing business (recruiting).  Ass-kissing will always do you good in recruiting.  Prince went way past "not kissing ass" and straight into being a dick.  Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.  That's just horrible business.

Rusty - Do you think Ron's comments had any significant impact on Butler's opinion or perception?  Do you really think there was a change that came out of the comments on Butler's end?  Was he steering kids to KSU before, and now isn't? 

I think it could have a very significant impact.  The Browns might be a lost cause, but there will be future Wichita recruits that could ask Butler about Prince, and Butler could say he's an ass.  I don't expect him to say anything positive about Prince at this point in time.

If you want Butler's perception to change, you have to get him to recognize the errors inherent in his thinking that forms the perception.  I don't think Prince, or anyone else, has done this at all. 

Exactly - that's the problem here.  It's Prince's job to set Butler straight in a non-public way that keeps him happy.  Maybe he's done everything in his power to do this (from what I've heard, he hasn't, at all).  Even if they don't come to complete agreement, at least they don't burn any bridges in the process.

[KSU4ME]

Prince is in the ass-kissing business (recruiting).  Ass-kissing will always do you good in recruiting.  Prince went way past "not kissing ass" and straight into being a dick.  Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.  That's just horrible business.

I think it could have a very significant impact.  The Browns might be a lost cause, but there will be future Wichita recruits that could ask Butler about Prince, and Butler could say he's an ass.  I don't expect him to say anything positive about Prince at this point in time.

Exactly - that's the problem here.  It's Prince's job to set Butler straight in a non-public way that keeps him happy.  Maybe he's done everything in his power to do this (from what I've heard, he hasn't, at all).  Even if they don't come to complete agreement, at least they don't burn any bridges in the process.

You don't have long term success by being a butt kisser.  Stoops isn't a recruiting whiz because he kisses butt, he's a recruiting whiz because he wins and puts players in the NFL.  By and large that is what will attract the most quality recruits over the long haul.  How many recruit's doors were opened by Snyder puckering up?

You even contradict yourself later by saying that Prince's job is to "set Butler straight."  Setting someone straight and kissing their butt are not complementary actions.

And you ducked the question about the actual impact of Prince's comments.  Talking about the impact it could have versus the impact you think it DID have is weak, especially given your willingness to lambaste Prince over it.  What do you think Butler's advice was regarding KSU prior to the comment, and how do you think it's changed?  You don't have to shuck and jive, the answer is quite obvious.  The most likely scenario is that the comment doesn't change squat. 

What Prince has done is offer scholarships to very questionable HS recruits from Kansas.  He's taken that action at least, I'm sure you'll agree.  For every passed over kid that Butler can mention, I'm sure we can rattle off a handful of scrub recruits that never would have been offered if they were from somewhere other than Kansas.

[michigancat]

You don't have long term success by being a butt kisser.  Stoops isn't a recruiting whiz because he kisses butt, he's a recruiting whiz because he wins and puts players in the NFL.  By and large that is what will attract the most quality recruits over the long haul.  How many recruit's doors were opened by Snyder puckering up?

I guarantee you Bob Stoops can kiss a 5 star 17 year old's ass (or handler's ass) with the best of them.  Snyder, too.  Obviously, a winning track record will get you further, but Ron doesn't exactly have that luxury, does he?

You even contradict yourself later by saying that Prince's job is to "set Butler straight."  Setting someone straight and kissing their butt are not complementary actions.

That's just poor wording on my part.  I'm trying to say they need to be on the same page.  They need to have a good relationship...at least good enough too prevent Butler from spouting falsehoods to the media.  Prince should have already known about Butler's issue with DeLarue, explained his reasoning for not extending an offer, address any other concerns Butler has with KSU recruiting, tell him to call him at any time with any future concerns, and ask that it not be discussed in the media.

And you ducked the question about the actual impact of Prince's comments.  Talking about the impact it could have versus the impact you think it DID have is weak, especially given your willingness to lambaste Prince over it.  What do you think Butler's advice was regarding KSU prior to the comment, and how do you think it's changed?

Jesus Christ, I can't read Butler's mind.  All I know is that Prince came off as a dick.  So, I would think that if Butler was telling kids that "KSU's coach neglects Kansas recruits" before the comments, he would now tell them that "KSU's dickhead of a coach neglects Kansas recruits".  Maybe he already thought Prince was a dickhead before the Catbacker event.  In that case, it probably had little impact.

The most likely scenario is that the comment doesn't change squat. 

Even if all your nonsense is true, why risk it?  Ron needs to keep his mouth shut and work on improving ties with Butler.

[waks]

If Arthur Brown goes big time, Wichita area kids are going to be lining up to play for Butler's organization. If that does happen, and Butler still doesn't like Prince, then we are &@#%ed. There will definitely be more good talent that comes out of Wichita that we shouldn't miss on and Prince needs to do whatever he can to improve relations with Butler. Bottom line.

[catzacker]

Prince is in the ass-kissing business (recruiting).  Ass-kissing will always do you good in recruiting.  Prince went way past "not kissing ass" and straight into being a dick.  Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.  That's just horrible business.

I think it could have a very significant impact.  The Browns might be a lost cause, but there will be future Wichita recruits that could ask Butler about Prince, and Butler could say he's an ass.  I don't expect him to say anything positive about Prince at this point in time.

Exactly - that's the problem here.  It's Prince's job to set Butler straight in a non-public way that keeps him happy.  Maybe he's done everything in his power to do this (from what I've heard, he hasn't, at all).  Even if they don't come to complete agreement, at least they don't burn any bridges in the process.

You don't have long term success by being a butt kisser.  Stoops isn't a recruiting whiz because he kisses butt, he's a recruiting whiz because he wins and puts players in the NFL.  By and large that is what will attract the most quality recruits over the long haul.  How many recruit's doors were opened by Snyder puckering up?

You even contradict yourself later by saying that Prince's job is to "set Butler straight."  Setting someone straight and kissing their butt are not complementary actions.

And you ducked the question about the actual impact of Prince's comments.  Talking about the impact it could have versus the impact you think it DID have is weak, especially given your willingness to lambaste Prince over it.  What do you think Butler's advice was regarding KSU prior to the comment, and how do you think it's changed?  You don't have to shuck and jive, the answer is quite obvious.  The most likely scenario is that the comment doesn't change squat. 

What Prince has done is offer scholarships to very questionable HS recruits from Kansas.  He's taken that action at least, I'm sure you'll agree.  For every passed over kid that Butler can mention, I'm sure we can rattle off a handful of scrub recruits that never would have been offered if they were from somewhere other than Kansas.

How freaking stupid are you?  If the relationship is/was damaged, how does taking shots at Butler help repair, in any way, that critical relationship?  You're right, the comment doesn't change squat and that is sad; Prince should be trying to reconcile/repair that relationship.  And as far as recruiting and Butler, we aren't just talking about the Brown brothers, we're talking about all the other kids that will be attracted to Butler because of what he will be able to do for the Browns and Harper.  

How the hell do you think Prince is going to get to the long term (i.e. winning)?  The term "kissing ass" is semantics.  It doesn't mean you bend over backwards, but it does mean that you pretty much do what you can to make them "happy" knowing that in the future you'll be able to have some leverage/advantage over other people trying to recruit "Butler's kids".  It's called establishing a relationship, and by Prince's comments and Butler's comments, he hasn't been able to establish this key relationship.  

[PurpleReign]

While Prince should improve relations with Butler, he shouldn't just bow down to the man and offer whoever Butler pushes.  So KSU didn't offer a 5-5 165# RB that gains 200 yards against West and North high.  The fact of the matter is that some kids just aren't good enough or big enough to play Division 1 football.  Prince could offer guys like that for a better chance to land the Brown bros., but when they commit to an SEC school Prince is stuck with a D2 football player on scholarship for 3 more years.  Prince's job is to go out and get the best players possible and Butler's job is to push guys from Wichita, but when Butler's guy doesn't get offered it's not his job to call out Prince and trying to tell him how to run his team.

[michigancat]

While Prince should improve relations with Butler, he shouldn't just bow down to the man and offer whoever Butler pushes.  So KSU didn't offer a 5-5 165# RB that gains 200 yards against West and North high.  The fact of the matter is that some kids just aren't good enough or big enough to play Division 1 football.  Prince could offer guys like that for a better chance to land the Brown bros., but when they commit to an SEC school Prince is stuck with a D2 football player on scholarship for 3 more years.  Prince's job is to go out and get the best players possible and Butler's job is to push guys from Wichita, but when Butler's guy doesn't get offered it's not his job to call out Prince and trying to tell him how to run his team.

It doesn't have to be so black and white.  And as has been already said, this is as much about the Rashad Washington's, Jermaine Berry's, and John Randle's of the world as much as it is the Brown's .

[PurpleReign]

While Prince should improve relations with Butler, he shouldn't just bow down to the man and offer whoever Butler pushes.  So KSU didn't offer a 5-5 165# RB that gains 200 yards against West and North high.  The fact of the matter is that some kids just aren't good enough or big enough to play Division 1 football.  Prince could offer guys like that for a better chance to land the Brown bros., but when they commit to an SEC school Prince is stuck with a D2 football player on scholarship for 3 more years.  Prince's job is to go out and get the best players possible and Butler's job is to push guys from Wichita, but when Butler's guy doesn't get offered it's not his job to call out Prince and trying to tell him how to run his team.

That's not the point. Prince needs to explain to Butler why he felt that Delarue did not deserve a scholarship. We're saying that he needs to have a healthy relationship and not insult the guy to the media (that's just idiotic and embarrassing). We're not saying he should offer every kid Butler pushes just to make Butler happy. We are just saying that he needs to do everything reasonable to keep a good relationship with Butler (like not mock him in front of 1000 people in Butler's own city).

I agree that mocking Butler was a bad idea, but as we all know Prince is arrogant, and he has to see it as a slap in the face that some guy who is making a name for himself off of 2 all-world talents is trying to tell him how to do his job.  IMHO Butler is a sleezy guy, but that's how recruiting works.  I don't blame it on JMart for printing the quotes, but why not interview Prince on how he goes about the recruiting process.  So the Brown brothers thought Frank was a better back than the guys KSU offered, who cares?  The guy is 5-5 and his name is not Darren Sproles.  Maybe Butler as an adult should ask Prince why FD wasn't offered and then explain it to the bros.

[FBWillie]

Sorry; I'm a bit behind as I was out of town all weekend... but reading through this, I keep coming back to one question... Why is any of this being hung on Jeffrey Martin?  When did it become his job to defend Coach Prince?  If there is a problem with Prince's image, Prince needs to handle it; and handle it in a way that doesn't make him sound like he's attacking anyone. 

As far as the whole butler/kansas recruits/prince issue.  I really don't think any of you are capable of reading between the lines.  Butler's #1 goal is to get Kansas Kids Recruited.  He's going to say anything possible to get more kids recruited; regardless of them being true or not.  He probably feels that way because not enough of his kids are taken.  He wants all of them to get scholarships.  Kind of like every father thinks their kid should have the ball in their hands every play; then verbally attacks to little league coach for not doing so.   

[pissclams]

While Prince should improve relations with Butler, he shouldn't just bow down to the man and offer whoever Butler pushes.  So KSU didn't offer a 5-5 165# RB that gains 200 yards against West and North high.  The fact of the matter is that some kids just aren't good enough or big enough to play Division 1 football.  Prince could offer guys like that for a better chance to land the Brown bros., but when they commit to an SEC school Prince is stuck with a D2 football player on scholarship for 3 more years.  Prince's job is to go out and get the best players possible and Butler's job is to push guys from Wichita, but when Butler's guy doesn't get offered it's not his job to call out Prince and trying to tell him how to run his team.

That's not the point. Prince needs to explain to Butler why he felt that Delarue did not deserve a scholarship.

Prince shouldn't have to explain anything to Butler.  Prince not offering Delarue should tell Butler everything he needs to know about how Prince feels about Delarue.  

This isn't the first time that Prince has snubbed Butler, he also did by not showing up to the Brown workouts when everyone else was there, he obviously knows more about the situation than any of us.  I'm sure he wants to be in the Brown's good graces but that may not be possible, only Prince and Butler know that.

[ksuno1stunner]

Butler needs Prince more than Prince needs Butler.  Hopefully Butler realizes this.

[waks]

Butler needs Prince more than Prince needs Butler.  Hopefully Butler realizes this.

Not necessarily.. It depends on how deep Mangino's rectum is. I'm guessing it's pretty deep.

[PurpleReign]

Butler also needs the Brown bros. more than Prince does.  Granted they will provide a huge impact for whatever team(s) that they land on, but if Prince doesn't land the brothers he will still have his job for the time being.  Butler without the Browns is nothing.

[ksuno1stunner]

Butler needs Prince more than Prince needs Butler.  Hopefully Butler realizes this.

Not necessarily.. It depends on how deep Mangino's rectum is. I'm guessing it's pretty deep.

I don't think Mangino has ever recruited Butler's players.

[waks]

Butler needs Prince more than Prince needs Butler.  Hopefully Butler realizes this.

Not necessarily.. It depends on how deep Mangino's rectum is. I'm guessing it's pretty deep.

I don't think Mangino has ever recruited Butler's players.

He was at the combine.

[ksuno1stunner]

Butler needs Prince more than Prince needs Butler.  Hopefully Butler realizes this.

Not necessarily.. It depends on how deep Mangino's rectum is. I'm guessing it's pretty deep.

I don't think Mangino has ever recruited Butler's players.

He was at the combine.

Whoop-de-doo.  It's &@#%ing Mangino, he's irrelevant.

[waks]

Butler needs Prince more than Prince needs Butler.  Hopefully Butler realizes this.

Not necessarily.. It depends on how deep Mangino's rectum is. I'm guessing it's pretty deep.

I don't think Mangino has ever recruited Butler's players.

He was at the combine.

Whoop-de-doo.  It's &*$@!ing Mangino, he's irrelevant.

ku was in Brown's top 50.

[ksuno1stunner]

Maybe Butler doesn't need us as much as I think he does.  It's not like anyones going to recruit the Frank Delarues of the world.