KSUFans Archives
Sports => Snyder's Electronic Cyber Space World => Topic started by: Jeffrey_Martin on April 20, 2007, 12:02:48 PM
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And I'm asking this question in all seriousness.
I just looked at his numbers from last year, and they were awful. I understand the notion of him improving from his freshman season, but how much? Are we convinced that Prince and Franklin can help him improve? And aren't defenses now gearing up to stop him?
Honestly, I'm just asking questions here. Discuss...
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Depends on how well his supporting staff gels.
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He'll go as far as his offensive line. He is bright, huge, athletic, has shown both touch and the ability to make a ball fit. With a running game and a decent offensive line I could see him becoming a first round pick.
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he needs to have a better line - he just needs more time. Last year, he made some fast and bad decisions but, a good example of how to break down last season...
Texas game - line held and he was a passing machine and made good decisions.
Kwho game - line was terrible and no WR's to match his talent, therefore, bad decisions and tons of mistakes.
The coaches need to get more people around Freeman that will help him grow - and they need to back off of him and quit trying to protect him - let him play the game he is use to playing.
I am looking for a lot of improvement from Freeman this year but, he will only be as good as his supporting staff.
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When the offensive line was good, Freeman was nearly unstoppable, CU, Texas, OSU. When it was bad he was bad.
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Yeah it's easy to blame the offensive line for his troubles.
But there's one thing he needs to work on, regardless of the line. Forcing throws. He did that a LOT and it turned into interceptions a LOT. Even when he wasn't under a ton of pressure. If he can fix that, I think he'll be a damn good quarterback.
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Last year, we switched from a Man blocking scheme to a zone blocking scheme in regards to the o-line, and we really didn't have the players to run that blocking scheme really well. This year, we have quite a bit of JUCO help coming in the help out the o-line. We really won't know how good the line is till fall though, if they can gel and give Josh a couple extra seconds, then he could eliminate quite a few of his mistakes that were caused by defensive pressure. Another thing that hampered Josh down the stretch was the fact that our top 3 recievers were either out altogethere or playing injured. Against ku Jordy Nelson played at about 70%, and he was our top threat to stretch the field, kind of scary. So, ku just pinned their ears back and we besically had no options. The Rutgers game, Yamon only played about one quarter of that game, and Patton and Johnson both got hurt. SO, the offensive supporting cast should be much better this year, with three legit recieving threats coming in this fall, and a revamped line to protect Josh. I think the sky is the limit if everyone can stay healthy.
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And I'm asking this question in all seriousness.
I just looked at his numbers from last year, and they were awful. I understand the notion of him improving from his freshman season, but how much? Are we convinced that Prince and Franklin can help him improve? And aren't defenses now gearing up to stop him?
Honestly, I'm just asking questions here. Discuss...
For a true freshman with a horrible o-line I don't think he did all that poorly. If you count up all the other true freshman who were multiple conference players of the week in a BCS conference, he's in pretty good company. I think natural maturation will help him immensely in his decision making progression. I wouldn't read too much into his interceptions thus far in spring practice, when you constantly mix up your blocking, running and passing games things tend to get a little helter skelter. If he is still throwing a bunch of picks a couple weeks into the fall practices (after the line-ups become a bit more consistant) I will be more concerned. BTW- I noticed the last two posts of yours have a decidedly negative tone. Are you pouting after a tongue lashing from Prince? :billypopcorn:
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My consensus is:
Forced throws were caused by (1) True freshman QB and (2) Running for dear life (bulletin: he's not Bishop or Roberson with his feet!) because of the non-existant protection!
Freeman will be as good as his O-line will let him be. Having good receivers always helps, but he'd be good anyway.
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he'll always be a high interception guy.
but the sky's the limit because he has the strength and touch to make all the throws, and also the escapability and size to withstand a rush.
first team all big xii. no all american stuff tho.
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The really bad games were either a product of really poor game planning and in game coaching by the KSU staff-see ku game.
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4-3 as a big 12 starter.
:love:
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I think the issue with last year is the way he finished. It appeared that after a horrible start he started figuring things out starting with OSU (though the gameplan helped) then a few growing pains before a great run in the ISU, CU, and UT games. Then things really went south vs ku and didn't look all that much better vs Rutgers even after a month to prep.
Clearly Josh has all the physical tools to be great, its just going to come down if he can figure out the scheme and how to read his progressions which he's really only in his 2nd year of doing. That will be the key. Granted, he's going to need some OL play and WR/TE play, and it will help a bunch if we can get a guy who can stretch the field.
I really think an improved Johnson/Patton will help take some of the pressure off, even with a moderately improved OL Johnson has shown much more ability to break things than he did last year after coming in late, and I'm sure Patton has made similar improvements.
IMO this year the goal has to be for Freeman to hit around 55% of his passes and have somewhere around a 2:1 TD to INT ratio. If he can do that, he'll be in position to be an All Big 12 player in his JR/SR years. But again, I think this will have much more to do with how he handles the mental side of the game and if Franklin/Prince can push the right buttons to make that happen.
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Here's some stats for you:
COMP Att PC Yrds YPP TD INT
84 143 58% 1,155 13.75 6 7
Compared to Josh Freeman
140 270 51% 1,780 12.71 6 15
For those wondering; the first set of stats belong to Vince Young his freshman year. Yes, I see the huge disparity between the INT's and the lack of TD's compared to pass attempts, but Vince had a much better O-Line; A much better running game; and probably a better receiving core... I don't remember. Compared to Josh having an entire O-line of suckage in front of him; A musical chairs of receivers coming in and out with injuries; and a run game that didn't really come together until the end of the year.
I'm not saying Josh will win a NC or heisman; but it wouldn't be the first time that a true freshman came out with not so great stats only to turn in god like stats his Junior/Senior year... For those wondering, here's VY's Junior year stats...
COMP Att PC Yrds YPP TD INT
212 325 65% 3,036 14.32 26 10
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not to mention vince was a rs frosh, and was zinging it to roy williams.
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one thing was apparent in vince's 1st year, he was a winner.
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just like freeman last year, for the most part
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... have somewhere around a 2:1 TD to INT ratio.
Hell, a 1:1 TD to INT ratio would be a hell of an improvement for next year.
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FWIW, here is what I'd like to see from Freeman this year minimum (reg season).
176-320-9, 55%, 2,300 YDS, 17 TDs
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... have somewhere around a 2:1 TD to INT ratio.
Hell, a 1:1 TD to INT ratio would be a hell of an improvement for next year.
I'll be shocked if Freeman has more TD's than INT's. The crazy thing is that Coffman might actually be a better redzone QB than Freeman.
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so it begins.
let the backup qb love commence.
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I think it's all in the o-line. It can't be any worse this year, so we should see an offense with a little more productivity.
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... have somewhere around a 2:1 TD to INT ratio.
Hell, a 1:1 TD to INT ratio would be a hell of an improvement for next year.
I'll be shocked if Freeman has more TD's than INT's. The crazy thing is that Coffman might actually be a better redzone QB than Freeman.
Maybe. Coffman has been solid in practice, but he also goes against 2nd team players. The advantage Coffman has is he came from a HS offense that required him to read progressions, whereas I don't think it was quite the same or as disciplined for Josh. They've had great players, but there is a reason Ray-Pac has won 3 state titles in a row, 2 with Carson Coffman. I'm pleased with how Coffman has played in the spring practices I've seen, I think he's a legit backup, but no way is he in position to challenge Josh for the #1 spot. Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves here.
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so it begins.
let the backup qb love commence.
"Back qb love" SHOULD exist until Freeman can demonstrate consistency.
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Freeman will have some growing pains again this year, but you can take to the bank that by his JR season he will be ready to lead his team to a North Division title and maybe a Big 12 title. Of course, this is assuming the Oline steadily improves over the next two seasons.
Like everyone else is saying, don't worry about Josh, worry about who we have around him. Those are his limitations right now.
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Freeman will have some growing pains again this year, but you can take to the bank that by his JR season he will be ready to lead his team to a North Division title and maybe a Big 12 title. Of course, this is assuming the Oline steadily improves over the next two seasons.
Like everyone else is saying, don't worry about Josh, worry about who we have around him. Those are his limitations right now.
If he can't handle his arrogance, that could also hurt him.... I'd be surprised if he put in the studying effort for ku that he did for the texas game.
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When he is a first round pick in 2010, it will be fun to look back on this thread.
Hopefully someone will remember.
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Similar.
http://kansasstate.rivals.com/viewprospect.asp?Sport=1&pr_key=29747
http://kansasstate.rivals.com/viewprospect.asp?Sport=1&pr_key=7844
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God woke up one day envisioned the perfect football offense being ran by the perfect quarterback. Later that day, Ron Prince was named head coach at Kansas State and his first order of business was to phone Josh Freeman. Such perfection comes only directly from the perfect being.
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russel's stats his first year under center:
played in 11 games, five starts
completed 73 of 144 (51%) for 1,053 yards and 9 tds versus 4 interceptions.
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God woke up one day envisioned the perfect football offense being ran by the perfect quarterback. Later that day, Ron Prince was named head coach at Kansas State and his first order of business was to phone Josh Freeman. Such perfection comes only directly from the perfect being.
:thumbsup:
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And I'm asking this question in all seriousness.
I just looked at his numbers from last year, and they were awful. I understand the notion of him improving from his freshman season, but how much? Are we convinced that Prince and Franklin can help him improve? And aren't defenses now gearing up to stop him?
Honestly, I'm just asking questions here. Discuss...
For a true freshman with a horrible o-line I don't think he did all that poorly. If you count up all the other true freshman who were multiple conference players of the week in a BCS conference, he's in pretty good company. I think natural maturation will help him immensely in his decision making progression. I wouldn't read too much into his interceptions thus far in spring practice, when you constantly mix up your blocking, running and passing games things tend to get a little helter skelter. If he is still throwing a bunch of picks a couple weeks into the fall practices (after the line-ups become a bit more consistant) I will be more concerned. BTW- I noticed the last two posts of yours have a decidedly negative tone. Are you pouting after a tongue lashing from Prince? :billypopcorn:
Not pouting at all, but thanks for checking. This initial post wasn't intended to sound negative - the other one definitely was, though. Anyway, I was just wondering what some of K-State's finest fans thought about the star quarterback.
Now I know.
Can I pencil Freeman in for a Heisman and one or two national championships?
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just make sure to quote me as 'mr. white' in your article.
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There's no doubt that guys like Young and Russell played on better teams, maybe better than any Freeman will ever play on, but we can hope.
It certainly helps a young quarterback.
You could argue that Freeman had very little help at all as a true freshman.
Thrust into the role, bad o-line, bad receivers, inexperienced running backs, playing from behind, inexperienced new coaches, etc...
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And I'm asking this question in all seriousness.
I just looked at his numbers from last year, and they were awful. I understand the notion of him improving from his freshman season, but how much? Are we convinced that Prince and Franklin can help him improve? And aren't defenses now gearing up to stop him?
Honestly, I'm just asking questions here. Discuss...
For a true freshman with a horrible o-line I don't think he did all that poorly. If you count up all the other true freshman who were multiple conference players of the week in a BCS conference, he's in pretty good company. I think natural maturation will help him immensely in his decision making progression. I wouldn't read too much into his interceptions thus far in spring practice, when you constantly mix up your blocking, running and passing games things tend to get a little helter skelter. If he is still throwing a bunch of picks a couple weeks into the fall practices (after the line-ups become a bit more consistant) I will be more concerned. BTW- I noticed the last two posts of yours have a decidedly negative tone. Are you pouting after a tongue lashing from Prince? :billypopcorn:
Not pouting at all, but thanks for checking. This initial post wasn't intended to sound negative - the other one definitely was, though. Anyway, I was just wondering what some of K-State's finest fans thought about the star quarterback.
Now I know.
Can I pencil Freeman in for a Heisman and one or two national championships?
Pencil in a Big 12 Championship before he's done.
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russel's stats his first year under center:
played in 11 games, five starts
completed 73 of 144 (51%) for 1,053 yards and 9 tds versus 4 interceptions.
Something tells me LSU had a better supporting cast that year. They were ranked as high as #5 that year, ended up at #16. Losses to Georgia, Auburn, and Iowa. (Citrus Bowl)
http://www.lsusports.net/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=27811&SPID=2164&DB_OEM_ID=5200&Q_SEASON=2004
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And I'm asking this question in all seriousness.
I just looked at his numbers from last year, and they were awful. I understand the notion of him improving from his freshman season, but how much? Are we convinced that Prince and Franklin can help him improve? And aren't defenses now gearing up to stop him?
Honestly, I'm just asking questions here. Discuss...
For a true freshman with a horrible o-line I don't think he did all that poorly. If you count up all the other true freshman who were multiple conference players of the week in a BCS conference, he's in pretty good company. I think natural maturation will help him immensely in his decision making progression. I wouldn't read too much into his interceptions thus far in spring practice, when you constantly mix up your blocking, running and passing games things tend to get a little helter skelter. If he is still throwing a bunch of picks a couple weeks into the fall practices (after the line-ups become a bit more consistant) I will be more concerned. BTW- I noticed the last two posts of yours have a decidedly negative tone. Are you pouting after a tongue lashing from Prince? :billypopcorn:
Not pouting at all, but thanks for checking. This initial post wasn't intended to sound negative - the other one definitely was, though. Anyway, I was just wondering what some of K-State's finest fans thought about the star quarterback.
Now I know.
Can I pencil Freeman in for a Heisman and one or two national championships?
Now you're just being a smartass. You remind me of my ol lady when she gets a visit from aunt flo.
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russel's stats his first year under center:
played in 11 games, five starts
completed 73 of 144 (51%) for 1,053 yards and 9 tds versus 4 interceptions.
Something tells me LSU had a better supporting cast that year. They were ranked as high as #5 that year, ended up at #16. Losses to Georgia, Auburn, and Iowa. (Citrus Bowl)
http://www.lsusports.net/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=27811&SPID=2164&DB_OEM_ID=5200&Q_SEASON=2004
oh, that's pretty unquestionable.
i just don't think you can look at a 6:15 ratio and just blame it on the supporting cast.
josh has a lot to learn about when not to throw the ball.
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russel's stats his first year under center:
played in 11 games, five starts
completed 73 of 144 (51%) for 1,053 yards and 9 tds versus 4 interceptions.
Something tells me LSU had a better supporting cast that year. They were ranked as high as #5 that year, ended up at #16. Losses to Georgia, Auburn, and Iowa. (Citrus Bowl)
http://www.lsusports.net/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=27811&SPID=2164&DB_OEM_ID=5200&Q_SEASON=2004
oh, that's pretty unquestionable.
i just don't think you can look at a 6:15 ratio and just blame it on the supporting cast.
josh has a lot to learn about when not to throw the ball.
Agreed. The offensive line is an issue, no doubt about it. But Josh's biggest step to take this year IMO is mental. When to throw the ball, when to take a sack, and reading through his progressions. IMO his biggest knock this spring has been his inability to consistently read through his progressions quickly enough. That said, that shouldn't be a huge surprise for a guy really only in his 2nd year of a true progression offense. If he masters that this year, he will be aweful tough.
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j-mart: listen to ksu_fan. ignore the others on this topic.
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i have talked to a source on the inside of the situation....he is the next payton manning
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russel's stats his first year under center:
played in 11 games, five starts
completed 73 of 144 (51%) for 1,053 yards and 9 tds versus 4 interceptions.
Something tells me LSU had a better supporting cast that year. They were ranked as high as #5 that year, ended up at #16. Losses to Georgia, Auburn, and Iowa. (Citrus Bowl)
http://www.lsusports.net/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=27811&SPID=2164&DB_OEM_ID=5200&Q_SEASON=2004
oh, that's pretty unquestionable.
i just don't think you can look at a 6:15 ratio and just blame it on the supporting cast.
josh has a lot to learn about when not to throw the ball.
Agreed. The offensive line is an issue, no doubt about it. But Josh's biggest step to take this year IMO is mental. When to throw the ball, when to take a sack, and reading through his progressions. IMO his biggest knock this spring has been his inability to consistently read through his progressions quickly enough. That said, that shouldn't be a huge surprise for a guy really only in his 2nd year of a true progression offense. If he masters that this year, he will be aweful tough.
True, he really would have benefitted from a redshirt year. If he had a full season to do nothing but learn the system, he would be much more dangerous coming into this year.
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i have talked to a source on the inside of the situation....he is the next payton manning
including the laser rocket arm? - if you are in to that type of thing...LOL
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When the offensive line was good, Freeman was nearly unstoppable, CU, Texas, OSU. When it was bad he was bad.
I felt one of Freeman's best games was against NU, Freeman was running away from those husker linebackers like nothing. Still you don't want to be running all the time. Freeman almost won that game, but our line played their worst and eventually it cost us in the end. Freeman doesn't need an amazing offensive line, he just needs some solid tackles, hopefully Alesna Alesana and someone else will provide this. Heck he beat Texas, with the help of Figurs.
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freeman was helped tremendously by Prince in the win over texas.
those calls were just mind blowing.
in 10 years we'll still be talking about that crap.
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Freeman just needs to quit turning the ball over. He'll be a remarkably "better" QB if he does so. It's that simple. The offensive line, while terrible, didn't cause alot of his turnovers. He threw some terrible balls and put some balls on the ground that were all on him.
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Freeman just needs to quit turning the ball over. He'll be a remarkably "better" QB if he does so. It's that simple. The offensive line, while terrible, didn't cause alot of his turnovers. He threw some terrible balls and put some balls on the ground that were all on him.
The more you get hit, the higher the odds of a fumble. The less amount of time you have to get a pass off, the greater the odds of a poor decision/inaccurate throw. David Carr looked great in college with a good offense around him, not so much in Houston. I tend to think Carr would have been a much better QB if he had ended up elsewhere.
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Freeman just needs to quit turning the ball over. He'll be a remarkably "better" QB if he does so. It's that simple. The offensive line, while terrible, didn't cause alot of his turnovers. He threw some terrible balls and put some balls on the ground that were all on him.
The more you get hit, the higher the odds of a fumble. The less amount of time you have to get a pass off, the greater the odds of a poor decision/inaccurate throw. David Carr looked great in college with a good offense around him, not so much in Houston. I tend to think Carr would have been a much better QB if he had ended up elsewhere.
While that is true, sometimes Freeman took too long to go through his progression, and he's done the same some this spring. Yes, the OL isn't great, but he's got to do his part and get the ball out in a decent amount of time as well.
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Everyone seems to lose sight of the fact that Freeman, while highly touted, was a god damn TRUE freshman who didn't start getting significant reps until the last half of fall camp. True freshman, no matter how good are going to make dumb throws and poor decisions, even if they play for USC.
Ell Roberson was a SO in 2001. Remember how downright terrible he looked at times? Remember those comments in the forum on a daily basis calling him Ell Overthrowberson? He had the physical tools, he just needed time to mature.
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And I'm asking this question in all seriousness.
I just looked at his numbers from last year, and they were awful. I understand the notion of him improving from his freshman season, but how much? Are we convinced that Prince and Franklin can help him improve? And aren't defenses now gearing up to stop him?
Honestly, I'm just asking questions here. Discuss...
The first thing you have to do with Josh's stats is throw out the games he didn't start. He threw a pic against FAU about 3 in the second half vs. Baylor and I think 1 vs Louisville in mop up. None of those games are good indicators of how he played once he was the starter and once he got starters reps in practice.
Then when you break down just his starts you see Josh was lights out at home last year. In the games he started in Manhattan; vs Oklahoma State, Iowa State, Nebraska, and Texas we went 3-1 and three of those four teams were bowl teams. Josh played well in all of those games even in the loss to NU he was making plays under crazy pressure the one pic he threw was a hail marry on the last play of the game. He was herioic down the stretch against OSU and he played pretty darn well against a talented Texas team in a big spot light.
So when you talk about him being awful last year it was basically away from home mainly against MU, ku, and Rutgers with the one strong peformance at CU being the anamoly. If you further break down those games especially the MU and ku games he got off to good starts in both games but once he made a mistake or too he lost composure and things snowballed on him. In the CU game he never made a mistake and he was able to play well for the entire game. So more then anything Josh needs to learn to keep his composure under pressure in a hostile enriroment and learn to bounce back from mistakes. To me those are things that come with age and experience. Not many QB's are going to play well as true freshman on the road in the big 12 not many are even put into that situation. Obviously he can play at a high level statistically ku and MU were two of the weaker defenses we faced last year so it wasn't about what they were doing it was more about Josh handling the situation.
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Ell vs. OU in 2001 :love:
Similar to Freeman vs. Texas? Actually, Roberson pretty much put the team on his shoulders in the OU game in '01. Freeman benefited from everyone making plays and a great gameplan.
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Everyone seems to lose sight of the fact that Freeman, while highly touted, was a god damn TRUE freshman who didn't start getting significant reps until the last half of fall camp. True freshman, no matter how good are going to make dumb throws and poor decisions, even if they play for USC.
Ell Roberson was a SO in 2001. Remember how downright terrible he looked at times? Remember those comments in the forum on a daily basis calling him Ell Overthrowberson? He had the physical tools, he just needed time to mature.
folks remembered it, but during the developmental regression otherwise known as the texas bowl, folks figured he had forgotten all that he learned during the freshman season.
if he had not melted down during the texas bowl, and ended on at least a decent note, you likely wouldn't be hearing the same tenor.
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I think you have to look at the good things he did and assume that he will do more of that as he gets older. When Josh was good last year (CU & UT), he was amazingly good.
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Matters with O-Line giving Josh enough time and WR's getting open and being playmakers. We know Josh has the potential to get it there.
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Everyone seems to lose sight of the fact that Freeman, while highly touted, was a god damn TRUE freshman who didn't start getting significant reps until the last half of fall camp. True freshman, no matter how good are going to make dumb throws and poor decisions, even if they play for USC.
Ell Roberson was a SO in 2001. Remember how downright terrible he looked at times? Remember those comments in the forum on a daily basis calling him Ell Overthrowberson? He had the physical tools, he just needed time to mature.
folks remembered it, but during the developmental regression otherwise known as the texas bowl, folks figured he had forgotten all that he learned during the freshman season.
if he had not melted down during the texas bowl, and ended on at least a decent note, you likely wouldn't be hearing the same tenor.
The Texas Bowl had nothing to do with JF regressing and everything to do with one team physically dominating the trenches of another team on both sides. We had no running game whatsoever. Freeman had no chance to be successful that day.
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It's not surprising for a true frosh QB, who's used to raping puny high school defenses at will, to come into the college game and force throws that result in picks. They're the same throws he made successfully a year ago, but the defenses just upgraded a ton.
Just a matter of patience with the learning curve.
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The really bad games were either a product of really poor game planning and in game coaching by the KSU staff-see ku game.
So the coaching staff made him turn it over 6 times?
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Post-Spring-Game bump.
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Legit question considering the fact Freeman really did not have to bust his butt to become a starter and seems to have free reign to make mistakes without Prince hammering him. A given in the great days of KSU Football were the QB's always progressed under Coach Snyder and all guys gave all out effort, all the time. The improvement Freeman displays in 2007 will directly reflect how good or bad the KSU offensive coaches are.
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Post-Spring-Game bump.
Thank you, Levi. Was about to do the same...
No accountability for Freeman. None.
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Wow you fans are crazy. Josh had a great game vs. Nebraska last year.......yeah thats right. He sure did. :rolleyes: He's going to win the Big 12 before he's done :lol:
Oh, and blame the O-line on how they went from man to zone blocking.
What a joke. He will never have the supporting cast to win the Big 12. MAYBE once in his 4 years he'll win the north, but even then I highly doubt it.
It's always fun listening to ksu fans dream of the future being good again. You're team isn't bringing in the talent to win the north, yet along the Big 12. Yes, I hate ksu and the constant bitching you stupid fans do EVERY SINGLE YEAR about something or another. Thats the joy I get for living in this pos town called manhattan. But, in the next 3 seasons, ksu just won't have what it takes. nothing against josh, he's going to be a good qb, but you can't compare him to VY or russell. Doing so is a joke. Just like everyone who says he's going to be great. It's just a joke.
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Prince's job has to be in more serious danger before he holds Freeman accountable for his mistakes.
So, about mid-season.
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Post-Spring-Game bump.
Thank you, Levi. Was about to do the same...
No accountability for Freeman. None.
From the coaching staff, or from the fans?
I think you'll start seeing it from the fans. I remarked in another thread that after today, we'll probably be seeing Coffman cleaning out his locker in a week or two. That was tongue in cheek, though.
I wasn't at the game today, so I can't seriously comment on the performance there. I wish I could come out now and say one way or the other whether I think the Prince/Freeman Project will be a success or a failure--and I think in many ways the success of one hinges on the other--but I can't get a read on this thing, at all. It's quite possible that Prince is an egomaniacal, insecure, young head coach in over his head who's going to finish what Snyder started in terms of letting this thing just run all the way downhill, and Freeman will give him a huge assist because if his primary receiver doesn't beat his man, he'll throw it to the defense. Or it could be that Prince is making the necessary changes in a program that needed a jolt, and Freeman is the young guy with the tools that's going to lead to great things in 2008 and 2009. Or Prince may be merely adequate, and Josh as well, leading us to about a .500 record every year. I just haven't seen a big enough sample size yet to tell.
In all honesty, one of the most accurate takes on this entire situation. Well done, sir. I don't think anyone knows how any of this is going to play out, the main players included.
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"No accountability for Freeman. None."
Explain.
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Every time Freeman performs horribly, Prince always bails him out. But it can't play both ways. You can't constantly defend him because "he's only a sophomore" because the head coach made this situation what it is. He didn't have to play Freeman last year, but he chose to because he felt he was the best man for the job. He's the quarterback, period. According to Prince, it's the most dynamic position on the field. When the quarterback doesn't play well - zero yards of offense for the Purple? C'mon, that's terrible - the coach should be able to say as much. Instead, Prince just lets it fade away. Remember last year against ku? Freeman was responsible for six turnovers, and Prince said - with a straight face, no less - that he, the head coach, was responsible for the direction the ball went. He basically said Josh throwing three interceptions and fumbling three times was the fault of a man standing on the sidelines with a headset on his head, not the touted freshman recruit who short-armed passes and locked in on receivers. Freeman is being coddled, and I'm not certain that's the best way to handle this situation. But I'm not a second-year head coach, so I'll step down from my soapbox now.
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Great point about Prince coddling Freeman. It really can't be denied - he does it big time. I'm now looking forward to post-game press conferences this year! My take has always been that Prince and Freeman will both fail simply because the odds are that they will. No real innovative insight there, but something you can't ignore either.
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After Chad May was humiliated by Boston College in the Aloha Bowl, Bill Snyder took all the blame exactly as Prince did after the ku game. If you don't remember, May completely lost his composure and played horribly, just as Freeman did against ku. If the coach blames the player after a game like that, fans and journalists point the finger at the coach and say they should make their criticisms of the player in private. If the coach takes the blame, fans and journalists respond as you just did.
So, it's a no-win situation.
After Freeman's first INT, Wyatt or Stanbot asked Prince what had happened, and Prince said Freeman felt the pressure from the DE, skipped a progression, and threw a pass he shouldn't have thrown. He said these were exactly the types of mistakes they had worked on a lot and were attempting to eliminate from Josh's game.
Are you suggesting that Prince should've blasted Freeman to the press after the game? or perhaps that Prince and Franklin aren't trying to correct Freeman's mistakes b/c they just think he's a god or something and leave him to do as he pleases? Would accountability be naming Coffman the starting QB in the post-game press conference? What exactly do you want?
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I'm not going to argue with you. All I'm going to say is K-State's starting quarterback for the 2007 season led an offense yesterday that produced ZERO yards. That's embarrassing. You can talk all you want about the supporting cast and the pressure he was under, but I'm not buying it. There is a difference between blasting a player and pointing out a player needs to improve certain things. No, Carson shouldn't start, but you know what? He knows where to go with the ball, and if K-State is going to play this dink-and-dunk offense, you don't exactly need a QB with a big arm. Accuracy is more preferable. As for the May comments, I'm guessing Chad May had a little larger body of work, which is why he probably deserved Snyder coming to his defense.
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Prince on Freeman: "He came out and didn't play well, and that's how it goes. He's going to work hard. He's a proud young man and would like to play better, but the results are the results."
Prince = coddler
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Prince on Freeman: "He came out and didn't play well, and that's how it goes. He's going to work hard. He's a proud young man and would like to play better, but the results are the results."
Prince = coddler
He's excusing Freeman's poor play by saying that he just had a bad day. The question is about how long Prince will continue to give excuses on his behalf and refrain from saying that Freeman isn't performing well enough.
How bad would things have to get before Prince benches Freeman? Pretty bad, for sure, but just how bad? Four total wins this year followed by an 0-3 start next year?
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I'll be curious to see what happens after the Auburn game. We're going to get absolutely destroyed and Turnover Machine is going to look horrible. The o-line, although it was missing a few "starters" - but then again when isn' it - has once again showed that it is absolutely horrible and has made zero progress. And J-Mart is right; if we're not going to get vertical which we haven't in the past 3 games, then Turnover Machine really isn't being used properly. I realize that it was just a spring game, but for the past 3 outings we've dinked and dunked it around the field.
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Agreed. Realistically, we probably won't have anyone who can play better than Zach Lucas at tackle, so our QB must learn to wear the opposing team's best DE like a mink coat and still manage to throw accurately 30-50 yards downfield to a wideout on the 3-count. If Prince continues to coddle Josh and not directly blame him for failing to accomplish this, it will indeed be a LONG season! Deep down, Prince has to know that his job will hinge on winning, so I'd be willing to bet that eventually he will insert Coffman into the lineup. At that point, we can all form a circle and jerk off each other while chanting "TOLD YA! TOLD YA"
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Agreed. Realistically, we probably won't have anyone who can play better than Zach Lucas at tackle, so our QB must learn to wear the opposing team's best DE like a mink coat and still manage to throw accurately 30-50 yards downfield to a wideout on the 3-count. If Prince continues to coddle Josh and not directly blame him for failing to accomplish this, it will indeed be a LONG season! Deep down, Prince has to know that his job will hinge on winning, so I'd be willing to bet that eventually he will insert Coffman into the lineup. At that point, we can all form a circle and jerk off each other while chanting "TOLD YA! TOLD YA"
The o-line has sucked for going on 3 years now. Whether it's Zach Lucas, Spexarth, Stringer, Frieson, Wafford....they've all gotten dominated by the opposing team's DE. I don't care about coddling, I'd just like to see Freeman not turn the ball over and for Prince to quit blaming everyone else besides the guy throwing the interception or fumbling it. Yeah, he's getting pressure, so either move out of the pocket or take the sack, don't continuously make the same mistake and throw interceptions.
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Although all of us here can help the team to win more games by making excuses and rooting harder, the dynamic between Prince's hard-headedness and Freeman's suckiness is an interesting story and worth keeping an eye on.
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definitely. Freeman is horrible. Prince is horrible-er. If we're going to suck, let's have some fun with it and ridicule them!
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I wonder how the rest of the team feels about the Prince/Freeman relationship.
Like the Snyder/Sproles relationship before that possibly.
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I wonder how the rest of the team feels about the Prince/Freeman relationship.
Like the Snyder/Sproles relationship before that possibly.
I remember Snyder going public with his unhappiness regarding Darren's fumbling issues in 04.
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I wonder how the rest of the team feels about the Prince/Freeman relationship.
Like the Snyder/Sproles relationship before that possibly.
I remember Snyder going public with his unhappiness regarding Darren's fumbling issues in 04.
Sproles was a senior by then. If it takes that long for Prince to get after Freeman than its too little, too late.
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I wonder how the rest of the team feels about the Prince/Freeman relationship.
Like the Snyder/Sproles relationship before that possibly.
That's a bad example Goldie because Sproles produced. Freeman... not so much.
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I wonder how the rest of the team feels about the Prince/Freeman relationship.
Like the Snyder/Sproles relationship before that possibly.
That's a bad example Goldie because Sproles produced. Freeman... not so much.
True. But I remember a lot of team chemistry issues were blamed on the Snyder coddling Sproles issues. He had a different relationship with that one player compared to what he had with everyone else.
I think its similar here only worse because Freeman isn't producing as well.
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To answer your question JMart, Freeman has peaked and will not be getting any better. He'll show signs of brilliance but he'll never be the quarterback that everybody (KSU Fans) thought that he would be.
At this point our coaching staff will refuse to make the replacement and will continue to blame Freeman's poor performance on the O-Line. Its true, they're not very good but they're not the ones throwing the ball to the guys in the wrong colored jerseys. You are about to watch the unadulterated melt down of every K-State board in America.
I guess if we're not going to be a Football or Basketball school we mine as well get a Lacrosse team and see if we can make the news that way.
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QFT
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So just curious... what could Prince have said post game to not be coddling freeman? Is it too late to revert? Will he be forever known to be coddling freeman based off of past events?
I don't really have an opinion either way. Yes the entire purple squad looked like crap; Freeman looked lost. I just don't understand why the very same people that were :love: with Freeman after the UT game were so quick to point out that he wasn't the answer after his horrible performance at ku...
Shouldn't the post UT game have been, "freeman looked good, but it was just one game" if you're feelings were always that he's not the answer? Honestly, I think most of us expected a let-down performance at ku; and most people didn't believe we had a chance against Rutgers based off of the talent gap. I sure as hell didn't believe that the purple squad had a chance Sat. after looking at the rosters. Why is any of this that big of a surprise?
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Prince should've said "Josh is a &@#%ing pussy" then pulled out his blackberry and texted him "you just lost your 'ship. &@#% YOU!" Then turn to the media with a smirk, followed by a scowl and a gruff "Coffman is my QB now." Then a nonchalant, slow stride out of the media room.
But nooooooooo, he just made excuses in his usual coddling-fashion.
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I wonder how the rest of the team feels about the Prince/Freeman relationship.
Like the Snyder/Sproles relationship before that possibly.
I remember Snyder going public with his unhappiness regarding Darren's fumbling issues in 04.
Snyder blamed himself for putting too much on Darren's shoulders when he knew Darren didn't want to do punt returns.
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So just curious... what could Prince have said post game to not be coddling freeman? Is it too late to revert? Will he be forever known to be coddling freeman based off of past events?
Was asking this as a serious question...
I personally would have deflected any QB conversation to what a great job Coffman did and reminded everyone that EVERY position is open; then start talking about what kind of impact you hope to recieve from some of the incoming guys.
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Willie, I think you just answered your own question.
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I know, but sometimes when you're trying to steer someone in a particular direction you just have to jump out front and lead.
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I don't see what good publically questioning Freeman after a glorified scrimmage would do. Seems to me that they can discuss that behind closed doors and focus on the positives stemming from the spring game. The game was really more of a fan appreciation type celebration than anything, so no need to dwell on negatives four months before we play a game. Also, I don't really see Prince criticizing his players much to the public anyway, appearantly he is just one of those types of coaches. Snyder rarely had anything positive to say about players, and Prince rarely has anything negative to say. Doesn't mean that it is that way in private.
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I personally would have...EVERY position is open
You're exactly right. The coddling issue isn't limited to what Prince says. Would you believe Prince if he said that? I wouldn't either.
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I personally would have...EVERY position is open
You're exactly right. The coddling issue isn't limited to what Prince says. Would you believe Prince if he said that? I wouldn't either.
THANK YOU, EXACTLY THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE.
Still; I Guess I'm kinda playing devils advocate here. I'm not about to declare Freeman the 08 heisman winner nor do I think we'll win a NC anytime soon; but I just don't agree with the understanding that we're screwed because of his last 3 public performances being completely crapty. Even if he were to duplicate last years performance, I think we can still win 7-8 games with the improved talent surrounding him. Isn't that about what everyone was predicting on the 07-08 prediction thread? Did anything anyone saw Sat change their opinion of what will happen this coming year?
Ultimately, we've got a long road ahead of us with Freeman; He will get better. How much better? Who knows, but he will get better none the less.
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And before someone digs up my previous post comparing Freeman's stats to VY's realize I was more making a mockery of judging a player based soley off of stats. Some guys are just winners. Tom Brady is a winner. Coffman looks like he could be a winner. Freeman? He's more of a winner than Webb, Evridge, and Meier were.
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FWIW, in the practices I've been to Prince far from coddles Freeman or anyone else on the roster. When they need to be called out, he does it and he's constantly talking to Freeman and it usually isn't coddling.
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shhhhhhh, don't tell J-Mart. He's made up his mind already.
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Also, this game really did nothing to change my assessment of Freeman from this thread before the game. Freeman is still learning to read progressions and it showed saturday. It was magnified by the mixed rosters and running clock and a few drops. In practice at times Freeman has shown the ability to manage his progressions, and at times not. Sometimes when he doesn't he forces balls and those are things he must get better at. Honestly, Coffman is more advanced in both of those b/c of his background, but I still don't think there should be a controversy. If this continues well into next fall, then we may have one though. However, there shouldn't be any QB controversy based on the spring game.
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Was coffman really that much better at reading the progressions?
stats (http://www.kstatesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=212&SPSID=3065&DB_OEM_ID=400&ATCLID=874773)
He actually had just as a crappy a completion %
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Was coffman really that much better at reading the progressions?
stats (http://www.kstatesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=212&SPSID=3065&DB_OEM_ID=400&ATCLID=874773)
He actually had just as a crappy a completion %
Shutup! He "stole" the show!
:rolleyes:
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Was coffman really that much better at reading the progressions?
stats (http://www.kstatesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=212&SPSID=3065&DB_OEM_ID=400&ATCLID=874773)
He actually had just as a crappy a completion %
That's valid. He wasn't that much better and he was given field position twice. He did have a few more critical drops (Wilson) though and I though the white were able to sort of sustain a few more drives. Plus, I'm going off of what I've seen in practice as well. Again, I think Freeman is still the clear #1 right now.
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Fan kind of stole my thunder. Although Prince is quick to shoulder the blame publicly for Freeman's failings, I suspect it is because he wants to protect the confidence of his young QB. He wants him to take the leadership role, to be cocky, to feel he's the man, that he can do anything, to feel he can't be beat (ala Michael Bishop). I'm sure Freeman has confidence, but that can be fragile and Prince has to know there will be growing pains. I suspect he just tries to continually correct the mistakes while keeping Freeman's belief high. As long as Prince is working diligently behind the scenes at practices, and constantly in Freeman's ear, then I think he is doing what needs to be done.
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Well if you clowns don't get off of Freeman's shoulders with all of your unfair expectations I wouldn't be shocked to see Freeman playing ball closer to home next season. Then who's gonna run your republican party?
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Well if you clowns don't get off of Freeman's shoulders with all of your unfair expectations I wouldn't be shocked to see Freeman playing ball closer to home next season. Then who's gonna run your republican party?
He's going to contest the NFL age limit and replace trent green? :confused:
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So just curious... what could Prince have said post game to not be coddling freeman? Is it too late to revert? Will he be forever known to be coddling freeman based off of past events?
Was asking this as a serious question...
I personally would have deflected any QB conversation to what a great job Coffman did and reminded everyone that EVERY position is open; then start talking about what kind of impact you hope to recieve from some of the incoming guys.
That would have been great, except we all remember this from J-Mart's article last year:
Relax, this isn't an attempt to ignite a quarterback controversy.
It wouldn't matter, anyway, because K-State coach Ron Prince has made it perfectly clear there isn't one. And he did so again Tuesday.
"I'm not going to go back and forth and waffle back and forth," Prince said. "It's the kind of thing that is divisive. If the situation comes up where we have a medical issue, I have confidence in Dylan. . . .
"I'm not going to go back and forth. I don't think it's fair to the team."
But what about in the spirit of competition, which Prince has repeatedly hailed as a key to building a championship-caliber team?
Wouldn't it make sense for Meier, the seasoned if unspectacular senior, to be given a legitimate chance to push Freeman, the inexperienced and unquesti oned future of the program who acknowledged Tuesday the starting job was his for the foreseeable future?
That was the essence of the question asked of Prince following his news conference Tuesday, and he listened to most of it before quickly responding:
"Those are your words."
It was hastily explained that he'd just said that minutes earlier, but it didn't matter. Prince cut off the explanation.
"It's been very competitive in practice."
He turned his back, seemingly fed up, and a last question was posed to him - then does Meier have a chance to overtake Freeman, in the spirit of competit ion?
Silence, as he walked out the door.
EVERY position is not open; the quarterback position has been closed tight since Freeman took the job at Baylor, regardless of competition. That's not going to change.
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EVERY position is not open; the quarterback position has been closed tight since Freeman took the job at Baylor, regardless of competition. That's not going to change.
Do you think this could change now that only prince's Recruits are hitting the field...? No sarcasm, genuinely interested in your thoughts. If not, what other explanation would you hypothesize as justification for the love fest?
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EVERY position is not open; the quarterback position has been closed tight since Freeman took the job at Baylor, regardless of competition. That's not going to change.
Do you think this could change now that only prince's Recruits are hitting the field...? No sarcasm, genuinely interested in your thoughts. If not, what other explanation would you hypothesize as justification for the love fest?
Interesting theory, but I don't think so. He's in too deep with Josh. I don't think it's unfair to say that a very large part of Ron Prince's success or failure in his tenure at K-State will be judged directly on what Freeman does or doesn't do. And I think, at this point, RP probably feels the same way. Think about it, He:
-stole Josh from a rival, and was worshiped by the fan base for doing so
-never considered redshirting him
-put him in for a senior
-held with him through some of the worst football played by a K-State quarterback in a long time
-praised him when things went well
-excused him when things went poorly
I don't seem him ever wavering, unless his job depends on it at some point.
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-stole Josh from a rival, and was worshiped by the fan base for doing so Yeah. It was a big deal
-never considered redshirting him Turned out to be a 100% success
-put him in for a senior Turned out to be a 100% success
-held with him threw some of the worst football played by a K-State quarterback in a long time Turned out to be a 100% success, freeman finished up 4-3
-praised him when things went well as coach should do to the media
-excused him when things went poorly as coach should do to the media
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EVERY position is not open; the quarterback position has been closed tight since Freeman took the job at Baylor, regardless of competition. That's not going to change.
Do you think this could change now that only prince's Recruits are hitting the field...? No sarcasm, genuinely interested in your thoughts. If not, what other explanation would you hypothesize as justification for the love fest?
Interesting theory, but I don't think so. He's into deep with Josh. I don't think it's unfair to say that a very large part of Ron Prince's success or failure in his tenure at K-State will be judged directly on what Freeman does or doesn't do. And I think, at this point, RP probably feels the same way. Think about it, He:
-stole Josh from a rival, and was worshiped by the fan base for doing so
-never considered redshirting him
-put him in for a senior
-held with him threw some of the worst football played by a K-State quarterback in a long time
-praised him when things went well
-excused him when things went poorly
I don't seem him ever wavering, unless his job depends on it at some point.
-held with him threw some of the worst football played by a K-State quarterback in a long time
2004, 2005 season. Terrible QB play all around.
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Dylan had Moxie and Alen was tough!
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Dylan had Moxie and Alen was tough!
I liked Webb the most out of the 3.
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-stole Josh from a rival, and was worshiped by the fan base for doing so Yeah. It was a big deal
-never considered redshirting him Turned out to be a 100% success
-put him in for a senior Turned out to be a 100% success
-held with him threw some of the worst football played by a K-State quarterback in a long time Turned out to be a 100% success, freeman finished up 4-3
-praised him when things went well as coach should do to the media
-excused him when things went poorly as coach should do to the media
I'm not arguing with any of that. I was just laying out the facts as to why I don't think Josh will ever have to overcome competition for his job.
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I think Prince's post-game comments were meant in a joking manner and agree with Levi that there's no way Prince ever benches Freeman.
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Can't we just wait for the slaughter at Auburn to occur before we argue some more?
Seriously, here's an interesting comparison I heard Saturday at the Spring Game:
Josh Freeman is to Chris Simms AS Carson Coffman is to Major Applewhite. Discuss. (Yeah, analogies are sweet.)
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Can't we just wait for the slaughter at Auburn to occur before we argue some more?
Seriously, here's an interesting comparison I heard Saturday at the Spring Game:
Josh Freeman is to Chris Simms AS Carson Coffman is to Major Applewhite. Discuss. (Yeah, analogies are sweet.)
Perfect comparison!*
*Except Applewhite was a B12OPOY and Carson Coffman was a greyshirt with 0 D1 offers.
I already hate Carson Coffman with all of my being.
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EVERY position is not open; the quarterback position has been closed tight since Freeman took the job at Baylor, regardless of competition. That's not going to change.
Do you think this could change now that only prince's Recruits are hitting the field...? No sarcasm, genuinely interested in your thoughts. If not, what other explanation would you hypothesize as justification for the love fest?
Interesting theory, but I don't think so. He's into deep with Josh. I don't think it's unfair to say that a very large part of Ron Prince's success or failure in his tenure at K-State will be judged directly on what Freeman does or doesn't do. And I think, at this point, RP probably feels the same way. Think about it, He:
-stole Josh from a rival, and was worshiped by the fan base for doing so
-never considered redshirting him
-put him in for a senior
-held with him threw some of the worst football played by a K-State quarterback in a long time
-praised him when things went well
-excused him when things went poorly
I don't seem him ever wavering, unless his job depends on it at some point.
-held with him threw some of the worst football played by a K-State quarterback in a long time
2004, 2005 season. Terrible QB play all around.
You can't compare Freeman's play to any other qb because when was the last time we started a true freshman?
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These are my beliefs:
1. I believe Prince coddles Freeman, and I believe he always will. That's just the nature of this arrangement.
2. I believe Freeman should have played from Day 1 because it was obvious the job was going to be his, sooner rather than later.
3. I believe Freeman will be and, most importantly, deserves to be the starting quarterback for this team. Let's not get carried away with Carson-mania (unless it's Carson Palmer, of course).
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These are my beliefs:
1. I believe Prince coddles Freeman, and I believe he always will. That's just the nature of this arrangement.
2. I believe Freeman should have played from Day 1 because it was obvious the job was going to be his, sooner rather than later.
3. I believe Freeman will be and, most importantly, deserves to be the starting quarterback for this team. Let's not get carried away with Carson-mania (unless it's Carson Palmer, of course).
Now that you bring it up, I think that Freeman's tenure might look (hopefully) similar to Palmer's (proabably minus the Heisman). He was highly rated, got the job 9 games into his freshman year, and everyone thought he was terrible after he started playing. IIRC, his first 2-3 seasons were terrible and he underperformed....then his Senior year he was awesome (of course he was helped by having an amazing set of receivers - thank you Mike Williams for dropping every ball vs. KSU - a good offensive line, and a defense that was incredible)
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I still don't think Dylan was that bad, I think if the offensive gameplan was called for Meier the way it was for Freeman, Meier would have been more successful then he was. That said, if you have to call that gameplan I think you might as well go with the Freshman.
-excused him when things went poorly as coach should do to the media
This is where my problem with the situation arises. Prince has shown no fear in throwing other players under the bus in regards the media and yet he coddles Freeman. I think Freeman will develop better if he has to answer his critics and isn't babied by Prince.
The relationship between the two of them and the importance of this experiment has left me feeling about as sick about the program as I ever have.
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This is where my problem with the situation arises. Prince has shown no fear in throwing other players under the bus in regards the media and yet he coddles Freeman.
Who? I don't remember him throwing under a player under the bus in front of the media because of their play.
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Can't we just wait for the slaughter at Auburn to occur before we argue some more?
Seriously, here's an interesting comparison I heard Saturday at the Spring Game:
Josh Freeman is to Chris Simms AS Carson Coffman is to Major Applewhite. Discuss. (Yeah, analogies are sweet.)
Perfect comparison!*
*Except Applewhite was a B12OPOY and Carson Coffman was a greyshirt with 0 D1 offers.
I already hate Carson Coffman with all of my being.
My bad, Rusty. I need to learn to lay my internet sarcasm on thicker.
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This is where my problem with the situation arises. Prince has shown no fear in throwing other players under the bus in regards the media and yet he coddles Freeman.
Who? I don't remember him throwing under a player under the bus in front of the media because of their play.
I think the different color shirts in practice does so. I think Meier was definitely held more responsible for his mistakes then Freeman ever was. No way does Meier stay in the ku game as long as Freeman does. Maybe throwing them under the bus wasn't the right words but being held accountable is. It seems every players starting job is up for grabs except Freeman's. And this isn't "Coffman played great" gushing either, if anything it is "Prince shouldn't of ran off every QB who could compete last year." Coffman isn't even in the equation in my mind.
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Can't we just wait for the slaughter at Auburn to occur before we argue some more?
Seriously, here's an interesting comparison I heard Saturday at the Spring Game:
Josh Freeman is to Chris Simms AS Carson Coffman is to Major Applewhite. Discuss. (Yeah, analogies are sweet.)
Perfect comparison!*
*Except Applewhite was a B12OPOY and Carson Coffman was a greyshirt with 0 D1 offers.
My bad, Rusty. I need to learn to lay my internet sarcasm on thicker.
I already hate Carson Coffman with all of my being.
The thing is, that will come up sometime this year, and it won't be sarcasm.
Seriously.
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I think the different color shirts in practice does so.
I don't remember hearing about that in the media.
I think Meier was definitely held more responsible for his mistakes then Freeman ever was. No way does Meier stay in the ku game as long as Freeman does.
A freshman should be given more leeway than a 5th year senior. As for the ku game, when do you pull Freeman? Down by a touchdown in the 4th?
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IIRC, Prince said something like, "We're going to be good. Some of these seniors won't be around to see it. And that's a shame. We're going to get some dunkers and some leapers and...Hold on, I've gotta take this call from Richard Katz. It's long distance. Morgantown."
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I think Meier was definitely held more responsible for his mistakes then Freeman ever was. No way does Meier stay in the ku game as long as Freeman does.
A freshman should be given more leeway than a 5th year senior. As for the ku game, when do you pull Freeman? Down by a touchdown in the 4th?
You probably pull Freeman after the first half where he managed to throw 2 INT (one resulted in a TD) and Fumbled twice (one resulted in a TD another in a FG) and KSU was down 10 at half (and managed only 10 pts of offense).
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I think Meier was definitely held more responsible for his mistakes then Freeman ever was. No way does Meier stay in the ku game as long as Freeman does.
A freshman should be given more leeway than a 5th year senior. As for the ku game, when do you pull Freeman? Down by a touchdown in the 4th?
You probably pull Freeman after the first half where he managed to throw 2 INT (one resulted in a TD) and Fumbled twice (one resulted in a TD another in a FG) and KSU was down 10 at half (and managed only 10 pts of offense).
For Dylan?
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There is no qb controversy and wont be one outside of message boards an occasional retarded media report. Freeman is the guy, and wont be pulled unless he is hurt.
However, I do agree that Freeman appears to be coddled and sheltered from criticism by RP, but its not like RP has exactly ripped other players publicly.
RP's tenure at ksu will more than likely be judged on where Freeman takes the program in the next 3 years. Hopefully his career isnt shaped by Freeman (meaning RP is here a while and wins a lot), but I would not be shocked if it was.
Expecatations for Freeman (this year mostly) need to be scaled waaay back. He is young, makes poor decisions, and will not be an all conference type qb this year. After the last 3 games watching him play, I'm not going to expect a whole lot out of him this year. I think JJ and Patton will be the identity of the offense, and the OL has to get better to have any success whatsoever.
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I think Meier was definitely held more responsible for his mistakes then Freeman ever was. No way does Meier stay in the ku game as long as Freeman does.
A freshman should be given more leeway than a 5th year senior. As for the ku game, when do you pull Freeman? Down by a touchdown in the 4th?
You probably pull Freeman after the first half where he managed to throw 2 INT (one resulted in a TD) and Fumbled twice (one resulted in a TD another in a FG) and KSU was down 10 at half (and managed only 10 pts of offense).
For Dylan?
I'm just saying when a coach would've made the move. Didn't Ron put Freeman in after half time during the Baylor game down by 4 (and I don't even think DM had turned it over, he just looked terrible)?
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freeman has yet to impress me.
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I'll agree that the Fresh should have a different game called for him than Dylan but I think that Dylan didn't have the best game called from the sidelines. I think he was set up to fail and then prince called a much more conservative game for Freeman. I agree with J-mart where you mine as well play Freeman if the job is going to be his anyways. The shirt thing at practice sure wasn't a secret and it was fairly public who wasn't making the grade. Am I saying Freeman should've been pulled in the ku game? No. But you're crazy if you think Dylan would've finished that game with the same #s.
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This is where my problem with the situation arises. Prince has shown no fear in throwing other players under the bus in regards the media and yet he coddles Freeman.
Who? I don't remember him throwing under a player under the bus in front of the media because of their play.
PUP list?
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I'm just saying when a coach would've made the move. Didn't Ron put Freeman in after half time during the Baylor game down by 4 (and I don't even think DM had turned it over, he just looked terrible)?
Gotcha...I still think you give the true frosh more leeway.
This is where my problem with the situation arises. Prince has shown no fear in throwing other players under the bus in regards the media and yet he coddles Freeman.
Who? I don't remember him throwing under a player under the bus in front of the media because of their play.
PUP list?
That's calling players out for laziness, not on the field performance.
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I think Meier was definitely held more responsible for his mistakes then Freeman ever was. No way does Meier stay in the ku game as long as Freeman does.
A freshman should be given more leeway than a 5th year senior. As for the ku game, when do you pull Freeman? Down by a touchdown in the 4th?
You probably pull Freeman after the first half where he managed to throw 2 INT (one resulted in a TD) and Fumbled twice (one resulted in a TD another in a FG) and KSU was down 10 at half (and managed only 10 pts of offense).
For Dylan?
And right after the Texas game?
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I'm just saying when a coach would've made the move. Didn't Ron put Freeman in after half time during the Baylor game down by 4 (and I don't even think DM had turned it over, he just looked terrible)?
Gotcha...I still think you give the true frosh more leeway.
This is where my problem with the situation arises. Prince has shown no fear in throwing other players under the bus in regards the media and yet he coddles Freeman.
Who? I don't remember him throwing under a player under the bus in front of the media because of their play.
PUP list?
That's calling players out for laziness, not on the field performance.
It doesn't bother me at all that the players on the PUP were released. That's their only job over the summer.