On the topic of what type of program that we should aspire to be.

[nicname]

Some of us were having a conversation about what type of program we aspired to be in _Fan's "There is no positive spin on this one" thread.  I decided to do a little more research on the topic at had, but also decided to start a new thread because _Fan's original thread wasn't really about that anyway.  

I set out to look at just how good teams were, on average, over an extended period of time.  I used kenpom's rating system and added each teams ratings up from 2002-03 thrrough 2009-10, then divided them for an average ranking.  I then jotted down the top 25 teams plus a few others.  

One thing that is important to remember is that this is purely subjective, which for the most part is better than objective, but does have it's faults.  A perfect example would be a team like UCLA.  The rating system isn't weighted for success.  This means that the Bruins, a team that has been to three Final Four's in the given time period, is left well outside the top 25 because it has suffered three very poor seasons as well.  

Still, I think it is a very good barometer, and puts a lot into perspective.  

I'll list the teams in order.  Their average kenpom ranking will be in parenthesis.

ACC = Blue, B10 = Red, B12 = Green. Big East = Orange, Pac 10 = Black, SEC = Navy, Mid-Majors = black non-bold.

1. Kansas (6.00)
2. Duke    (6.125)
3. PITT     (13.875)
4. Texas   (15.375)
5. Wisc.    (16.375)
6. L'Ville   (17.75)
7. UNC      (18.00)
8. Mich St. (18.5)
9. UK        (20.625)
11t. Uconn (21.75)
11t. FLA     (21.25)
12. Memp. (21.75)
13. ILL       (22.5)
14. Cuse    (24.675)
15. Nova    (25.75)
16. G'Town (31.125)
17. UMD     (31.75)
18. Zona    (32.5)
19. ND       (33.625)
20. Zaga    (34.25)
21. Ok. St. (36.375)
23t. OKLA   (39.75)
23t. MARQ  (39.75)
24. Ohio St. (39.875)
25. WVU     (40.00)
26. Miss St. (40.625)
27. Tenn     (43.125)
28. GTech   (44.25)
29. WASH   (44.375)
30. Bost. Col. (45. 125)
31. BAMA     (45.5)
32. WAKE    (45.625)
33. K-State (46.875)

When a program can, on average be at or near the top 25 they have a really good program going.  KSU is right on the fringe of being where we need to be, especially if you are only looking at the Martin/Huggins years.  Although, I will point out that Wooly's SLTH like seasons toward the end of his tenure actually keep us near relatively high since he never really had horrible seasons in the years provided, not that that is anything to brag about.

KSU under Martin/Huggins averages 21-9 (10-6) on a yearly basis.  The average kenpom rating is 28.8.  If extended to 8 years and placed in the list above, the Martin/Huggins era would 16th best program on the list.  Which is very respectable, and not far off from being very good.

Also, looking at where KU is should put to rest any rationale of using them as a measuring stick.  

[MakeItRain]

Fantastic list, nickname.  Pitt and UT are much higher than I thought they would be.  I would have thought that they were peer programs for us, clearly not.  It does appear that they have grossly underachieved but, especially in the case of Pitt, amazingly steady.

[nicname]

Fantastic list, nickname.  Pitt and UT are much higher than I thought they would be.  I would have thought that they were peer programs for us, clearly not.  It does appear that they have grossly underachieved but, especially in the case of Pitt, amazingly steady.

Yeah, they have in the definitely underachieved in the tournament.  They have been to the S16 5 times (E8 once) in the last 8 seasons, which is really good, but they have failed to play to their seed 5 times.  They have still been really good, and have 2 Big east titles, 3 2nd place Big East finishes, and 1 Big East tournament title.

The tournament, to me, is like playing poker.  You try to get the best odds (ie. a higher seed), and eventually it will pay off.  But there is a lot of variance.

[KITNfury]

We're a lot higher than I though we'd be.

[felix rex]

I'll be damned if this nicname guy isn't putting a positive spin on things...

[kso_FAN]

I'll be damned if this nicname guy isn't putting a positive spin on things...

Good job nic.  Excellent work. I can't believe I've become the glass is half empty fan.

[chum1]

five page thread wasn't enough?  you guys sure took this loss hard.  very embarrassing.  especially awkward for those who maintain that it was just a bad shooting night.

[Cartierfor3]

where was missouri on the list?

[Skipper44]

Great work! 

I would love to see this list for the entire big 12

TIA

[nicname]

I'll be damned if this nicname guy isn't putting a positive spin on things...

Good job nic.  Excellent work. I can't believe I've become the glass is half empty fan.

It's not really about the FLA loss.  That loss sucked. It was ugly, and embarrassing.  It isn't really about this season, just where the program is at and where we would like it to be. 

If Frank stays for his entire contract, and has similar success to what he has already, we would be the 15th or 16th best program over that time period.  That is pretty awesome.

[EMAWzified]

My thought program wise is Frank=Okie State under Papa Sutton.

[nicname]

Great work! 

I would love to see this list for the entire big 12

TIA

Baylor: 97, 176, 190, 140, 86, 42, 34, 6 = 96.375

ISU: 62, 57, 40, 74, 121, 100, 112, 71 = 79.625

Mizzou: 26, 46, 72, 160, 59, 44, 6, 19 = 54.00

Kansas: 1, 13, 12, 6, 3, 1, 10, 2 = 6.00

K-State: 60, 65, 51, 81, 50, 17, 44, 7 = 46.875

OU: 8, 49, 9, 50, 43, 46, 13, 100 = 39.75

OSU: 29, 3, 8, 55, 71, 57, 28, 40 = 36.375

Texas: 10, 14, 26, 2, 21, 9, 23, 18 = 15.375

A&M: 96, 167, 35, 25, 7, 16, 46, 17 = 51.126

TTech: 28, 30, 28, 103, 70, 78, 94, 69 = 62.5


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doc Sadlers: 144, 34, 57, 104, 82, 34, 64, 85 = 75.5
Beautiful People: 41, 53, 94, 83, 168, 104, 168, 86 = 99.625

[nicname]

My thought program wise is Frank=Okie State under Papa Sutton.

I agree, and have been tooting that horn for years.  They were really good. 

[kso_FAN]

My thought program wise is Frank=Okie State under Papa Sutton.

I agree, and have been tooting that horn for years.  They were really good. 

Yeah, especially with the transfer similarities.

[Skipper44]

Great work! 

I would love to see this list for the entire big 12

TIA

Baylor: 97, 176, 190, 140, 86, 42, 34, 6 = 96.375

ISU: 62, 57, 40, 74, 121, 100, 112, 71 = 79.625

Mizzou: 26, 46, 72, 160, 59, 44, 6, 19 = 54.00

Kansas: 1, 13, 12, 6, 3, 1, 10, 2 = 6.00

K-State: 60, 65, 51, 81, 50, 17, 44, 7 = 46.875

OU: 8, 49, 9, 50, 43, 46, 13, 100 = 39.75

OSU: 29, 3, 8, 55, 71, 57, 28, 40 = 36.375

Texas: 10, 14, 26, 2, 21, 9, 23, 18 = 15.375

A&M: 96, 167, 35, 25, 7, 16, 46, 17 = 51.126

TTech: 28, 30, 28, 103, 70, 78, 94, 69 = 62.5


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doc Sadlers: 144, 34, 57, 104, 82, 34, 64, 85 = 75.5
Beautiful People: 41, 53, 94, 83, 168, 104, 168, 86 = 99.625

I read this as the Q@s have been the 5th best program (2nd best in the North) in the "Ken Pom" era - hard to be upset with that   

[felix rex]

My thought program wise is Frank=Okie State under Papa Sutton.

I agree, and have been tooting that horn for years.  They were really good. 

I could totally live with this.

[MakeItRain]

My thought program wise is Frank=Okie State under Papa Sutton.

I agree, and have been tooting that horn for years.  They were really good. 

They were also the mold for MCMW, hell one of their thugs is now a leading voice for college basketball.  We're going to have to work on MCMW, Frank keeps recruiting choir boys. Will Omari start us on the MCMW track?

[nicname]

My thought program wise is Frank=Okie State under Papa Sutton.

I agree, and have been tooting that horn for years.  They were really good. 

They were also the mold for MCMW, hell one of their thugs is now a leading voice for college basketball.  We're going to have to work on MCMW, Frank keeps recruiting choir boys. Will Omari start us on the MCMW track?

Can you imagine a dude like byron houston as a jyc?  It would be beautiful.

[WildcatNation]

Suprising that OU is that high, besides during the Blake Griffin time. Also Miss. St.

[Panjandrum]

My thought program wise is Frank=Okie State under Papa Sutton.

I agree, and have been tooting that horn for years.  They were really good. 

I could totally live with this.

They're still living off of that time period.

A long period of 'good' at least gives you a foundation to aspire for something higher.

[swish1]

Suprising that OU is that high, besides during the Blake Griffin time. Also Miss. St.

its only surprising if you forget that kelvin sampson was cheating his way to good teams for the entire era prior to blake griffin...

[Andy]

Fantastic list, nickname.  Pitt and UT are much higher than I thought they would be.  I would have thought that they were peer programs for us, clearly not.  It does appear that they have grossly underachieved but, especially in the case of Pitt, amazingly steady.

Yeah, they have in the definitely underachieved in the tournament.  They have been to the S16 5 times (E8 once) in the last 8 seasons, which is really good, but they have failed to play to their seed 5 times.  They have still been really good, and have 2 Big east titles, 3 2nd place Big East finishes, and 1 Big East tournament title.

The tournament, to me, is like playing poker.  You try to get the best odds (ie. a higher seed), and eventually it will pay off.  But there is a lot of variance.

pitt basically the bill self hawks till the '08 title*.

[MakeItRain]

Fantastic list, nickname.  Pitt and UT are much higher than I thought they would be.  I would have thought that they were peer programs for us, clearly not.  It does appear that they have grossly underachieved but, especially in the case of Pitt, amazingly steady.

Yeah, they have in the definitely underachieved in the tournament.  They have been to the S16 5 times (E8 once) in the last 8 seasons, which is really good, but they have failed to play to their seed 5 times.  They have still been really good, and have 2 Big east titles, 3 2nd place Big East finishes, and 1 Big East tournament title.

The tournament, to me, is like playing poker.  You try to get the best odds (ie. a higher seed), and eventually it will pay off.  But there is a lot of variance.

pitt basically the bill self hawks till the '08 title*.

And without the conference titles, Dixon has 1 regular season & 1 tournament championship.