Frank...

[sys]

its games like this that make me think kstate has actually made it.  the team couldnt have played much worse, took wsu's best shot, fell behind, didnt panic and pulled out an ugly victory on the road.

wsu shot 3-18 from 3 and 13-23 on fts.  i think they might have a better shot in them somewhere along the season.

[sys]

BTW, they just replayed that play on Sportscenter and I watched it frame by frame, because of where the penetration came from, there was no secondary help man, when Curtis helped out, he wasn't late BTW, if anything he was early, his man cut to the basket behind him.  WILL should have rotated over to Curtis' man. He screwed up twice.

i've got no replay, so i've got no choice but to concede the point.



damn that sucks.

[ednksu]

Just so we're clear, we are okay with the point guard getting blown by?  There is no doubt that the secondary help was late, but to absolve Spradling from blame is ridiculous.

spradling got beat.  kelly rotated late.  whoever was on weakside help never even got into the camera frame.  so, it's like two guys that played poor d, and one that didn't even try.

BTW, they just replayed that play on Sportscenter and I watched it frame by frame, because of where the penetration came from, there was no secondary help man, when Curtis helped out, he wasn't late BTW, if anything he was early, his man cut to the basket behind him.  WILL should have rotated over to Curtis' man. He screwed up twice.

I don't care if he was blown by or not, he was beat, period.

will shouldn't be on a post player.  the other post guy should have rotated to the basket/front of rim to help, especially when the post player is helping and his defensive man as rotated out to stop a dribble drive.

[swish1]

its games like this that make me think kstate has actually made it.  the team couldnt have played much worse, took wsu's best shot, fell behind, didnt panic and pulled out an ugly victory on the road.

wsu shot 3-18 from 3 and 13-23 on fts.  i think they might have a better shot in them somewhere along the season.

the poor 3 point shooting was a direct result of the kstate defense.  as for ft's they are a poor ft shooting team but i thought ft % was an irrelevant and trivial stat...

[kougar24]

at some point he's not effing with us, he's not getting what he wants.  at some point it's just who we are.  a good team, but nothing special at all. 10-6/11-5.

catzacker, that's what i think this team is.  and i was outraged by how bad kstate played.

i was hoping for more out of this team.  it's beyond depressing that it doesn't appear we'll be anything special.  and not a good sign for the future, frankly. 

Perspective, bro. Perspective.

[kso_FAN]

at some point he's not effing with us, he's not getting what he wants.  at some point it's just who we are.  a good team, but nothing special at all. 10-6/11-5.

catzacker, that's what i think this team is.  and i was outraged by how bad kstate played.

i was hoping for more out of this team.  it's beyond depressing that it doesn't appear we'll be anything special.  and not a good sign for the future, frankly. 

Perspective, bro. Perspective.

We'll see; "never as bad as your worst games" and whatnot. 

[MakeItRain]

BTW, they just replayed that play on Sportscenter and I watched it frame by frame, because of where the penetration came from, there was no secondary help man, when Curtis helped out, he wasn't late BTW, if anything he was early, his man cut to the basket behind him.  WILL should have rotated over to Curtis' man. He screwed up twice.

i've got no replay, so i've got no choice but to concede the point.



damn that sucks.

So I just watched it again and I have a different take, although Jake's man was one pass away he should have been the secondary help on Casto on the Moore penetration.  When Moore started his move to the basket Jake was guarding Thompson under the basket, with his back to the ball.  When Moore got in the lane Thompson moved to the right block (Jake still not seeing ball), and Casto crashed from the left elbow, behind Kelly who turned his back.  Jake never saw Moore, Will helped late to Casto.  Seeing the play you would think that Jake helping on Casto crashing wouldn't have done any good since he was so deep, but Casto is awful around the rim so it may have made a difference.

If Jake rotated, Will would have needed to rotate to Thompson.  So Will was not late on helping Kelly on Casto.  None of this changes that he gave up the initial penetration.

[MakeItRain]

Just so we're clear, we are okay with the point guard getting blown by?  There is no doubt that the secondary help was late, but to absolve Spradling from blame is ridiculous.

spradling got beat.  kelly rotated late.  whoever was on weakside help never even got into the camera frame.  so, it's like two guys that played poor d, and one that didn't even try.

BTW, they just replayed that play on Sportscenter and I watched it frame by frame, because of where the penetration came from, there was no secondary help man, when Curtis helped out, he wasn't late BTW, if anything he was early, his man cut to the basket behind him.  WILL should have rotated over to Curtis' man. He screwed up twice.

I don't care if he was blown by or not, he was beat, period.

will shouldn't be on a post player. 

Dead wrong, the secondary help person in that rotation will almost always be a guard.  The big helps on the guard who was beat, the player 2 passes away rotates on the big, that's nearly almost going to be the guard or forward who is two passes away likely in the opposite corner.  This is why teams like KSU who give up dribble penetration give up 3 point shots, there is where the opening is from from natural help defense rotations.

[ednksu]

BTW, they just replayed that play on Sportscenter and I watched it frame by frame, because of where the penetration came from, there was no secondary help man, when Curtis helped out, he wasn't late BTW, if anything he was early, his man cut to the basket behind him.  WILL should have rotated over to Curtis' man. He screwed up twice.

i've got no replay, so i've got no choice but to concede the point.



damn that sucks.

So I just watched it again and I have a different take, although Jake's man was one pass away he should have been the secondary help on Casto on the Moore penetration.  When Moore started his move to the basket Jake was guarding Thompson under the basket, with his back to the ball.  When Moore got in the lane Thompson moved to the right block (Jake still not seeing ball), and Casto crashed from the left elbow, behind Kelly who turned his back.  Jake never saw Moore, Will helped late to Casto.  Seeing the play you would think that Jake helping on Casto crashing wouldn't have done any good since he was so deep, but Casto is awful around the rim so it may have made a difference.

If Jake rotated, Will would have needed to rotate to Thompson.  So Will was not late on helping Kelly on Casto.  None of this changes that he gave up the initial penetration.

I'll concede that he gave up way to much penetration with his body position. no pg should get that deep in the lane without a lot of body by him.

[asava]

sounds like he got EXACTLY what he wanted from this game.

Quit doing this to me Frank.  Please.

at some point he's not effing with us, he's not getting what he wants.  at some point it's just who we are.  a good team, but nothing special at all. 10-6/11-5.

this is why i hate preseason rankings.

its games like this that make me think kstate has actually made it.  the team couldnt have played much worse, took wsu's best shot, fell behind, didnt panic and pulled out an ugly victory on the road.

if that was wsu's best shot they have horrible aim.

that horrible aim was because of kstate's defense...

no.

[ednksu]

Just so we're clear, we are okay with the point guard getting blown by?  There is no doubt that the secondary help was late, but to absolve Spradling from blame is ridiculous.

spradling got beat.  kelly rotated late.  whoever was on weakside help never even got into the camera frame.  so, it's like two guys that played poor d, and one that didn't even try.

BTW, they just replayed that play on Sportscenter and I watched it frame by frame, because of where the penetration came from, there was no secondary help man, when Curtis helped out, he wasn't late BTW, if anything he was early, his man cut to the basket behind him.  WILL should have rotated over to Curtis' man. He screwed up twice.

I don't care if he was blown by or not, he was beat, period.

will shouldn't be on a post player. 

Dead wrong, the secondary help person in that rotation will almost always be a guard.  The big helps on the guard who was beat, the player 2 passes away rotates on the big, that's nearly almost going to be the guard or forward who is two passes away likely in the opposite corner.  This is why teams like KSU who give up dribble penetration give up 3 point shots, there is where the opening is from from natural help defense rotations.

I guess Frank Martin was wrong then too.

[kso_FAN]

a) Frank conceded Will got tired and got beat.  Said this is probably the biggest area he needs to improve.

b) Frank was much more pissed at Kelly.  

[swish1]

sounds like he got EXACTLY what he wanted from this game.

Quit doing this to me Frank.  Please.

at some point he's not effing with us, he's not getting what he wants.  at some point it's just who we are.  a good team, but nothing special at all. 10-6/11-5.

this is why i hate preseason rankings.

its games like this that make me think kstate has actually made it.  the team couldnt have played much worse, took wsu's best shot, fell behind, didnt panic and pulled out an ugly victory on the road.

if that was wsu's best shot they have horrible aim.

that horrible aim was because of kstate's defense...

no.

yes

[MakeItRain]

Just so we're clear, we are okay with the point guard getting blown by?  There is no doubt that the secondary help was late, but to absolve Spradling from blame is ridiculous.

spradling got beat.  kelly rotated late.  whoever was on weakside help never even got into the camera frame.  so, it's like two guys that played poor d, and one that didn't even try.

BTW, they just replayed that play on Sportscenter and I watched it frame by frame, because of where the penetration came from, there was no secondary help man, when Curtis helped out, he wasn't late BTW, if anything he was early, his man cut to the basket behind him.  WILL should have rotated over to Curtis' man. He screwed up twice.

I don't care if he was blown by or not, he was beat, period.

will shouldn't be on a post player. 

Dead wrong, the secondary help person in that rotation will almost always be a guard.  The big helps on the guard who was beat, the player 2 passes away rotates on the big, that's nearly almost going to be the guard or forward who is two passes away likely in the opposite corner.  This is why teams like KSU who give up dribble penetration give up 3 point shots, there is where the opening is from from natural help defense rotations.

I guess Frank Martin was wrong then too.

Wrong about what?  I think you are having trouble following what's going on here

[sys]

So I just watched it again and I have a different take, although Jake's man was one pass away he should have been the secondary help on Casto on the Moore penetration.  When Moore started his move to the basket Jake was guarding Thompson under the basket, with his back to the ball.  When Moore got in the lane Thompson moved to the right block (Jake still not seeing ball), and Casto crashed from the left elbow, behind Kelly who turned his back.  Jake never saw Moore, Will helped late to Casto.  Seeing the play you would think that Jake helping on Casto crashing wouldn't have done any good since he was so deep, but Casto is awful around the rim so it may have made a difference.

If Jake rotated, Will would have needed to rotate to Thompson.  So Will was not late on helping Kelly on Casto.  None of this changes that he gave up the initial penetration.

just thinking about it, this sounds more likely.  if there was no help, then kelly shouldn't have stepped so far out to help.  should have stayed closer to the rim.  he wasn't stepping out to block a shot, he was playing position d, so i have to think he was expecting help.

[ednksu]

Just so we're clear, we are okay with the point guard getting blown by?  There is no doubt that the secondary help was late, but to absolve Spradling from blame is ridiculous.

spradling got beat.  kelly rotated late.  whoever was on weakside help never even got into the camera frame.  so, it's like two guys that played poor d, and one that didn't even try.

BTW, they just replayed that play on Sportscenter and I watched it frame by frame, because of where the penetration came from, there was no secondary help man, when Curtis helped out, he wasn't late BTW, if anything he was early, his man cut to the basket behind him.  WILL should have rotated over to Curtis' man. He screwed up twice.

I don't care if he was blown by or not, he was beat, period.

will shouldn't be on a post player. 

Dead wrong, the secondary help person in that rotation will almost always be a guard.  The big helps on the guard who was beat, the player 2 passes away rotates on the big, that's nearly almost going to be the guard or forward who is two passes away likely in the opposite corner.  This is why teams like KSU who give up dribble penetration give up 3 point shots, there is where the opening is from from natural help defense rotations.

I guess Frank Martin was wrong then too.

Wrong about what?  I think you are having trouble following what's going on here

I'm tired and this discussion has reached a terrible end.  Frank Martin the only D one coach made comments similar to mine in chat about the lack of rotation on help when big men block penetration. 

I've conceded that Will allowed too much penetration with poor body position.  You got your half way. 

[MakeItRain]

Just so we're clear, we are okay with the point guard getting blown by?  There is no doubt that the secondary help was late, but to absolve Spradling from blame is ridiculous.

spradling got beat.  kelly rotated late.  whoever was on weakside help never even got into the camera frame.  so, it's like two guys that played poor d, and one that didn't even try.

BTW, they just replayed that play on Sportscenter and I watched it frame by frame, because of where the penetration came from, there was no secondary help man, when Curtis helped out, he wasn't late BTW, if anything he was early, his man cut to the basket behind him.  WILL should have rotated over to Curtis' man. He screwed up twice.

I don't care if he was blown by or not, he was beat, period.

will shouldn't be on a post player. 

Dead wrong, the secondary help person in that rotation will almost always be a guard.  The big helps on the guard who was beat, the player 2 passes away rotates on the big, that's nearly almost going to be the guard or forward who is two passes away likely in the opposite corner.  This is why teams like KSU who give up dribble penetration give up 3 point shots, there is where the opening is from from natural help defense rotations.

I guess Frank Martin was wrong then too.

Wrong about what?  I think you are having trouble following what's going on here

I'm tired and this discussion has reached a terrible end.  Frank Martin the only D one coach made comments similar to mine in chat about the lack of rotation on help when big men block penetration. 

I've conceded that Will allowed too much penetration with poor body position.  You got your half way. 

[redacted] I said that Will didn't mess up the help Jake did.  Like I said it's clear you don't know what is happening here.  Will would have had rotational help responsibilities on Thompson if Jake helped on Casto like he should have.  And spare me this D1 coach crap, basic help defense principles is something that a middle school girls coach should know.

[Tobias]

If there were a way to physically poop on a thread I would do it right now.

[WillieWatanabe]

If there were a way to physically poop on a thread I would do it right now.

[ednksu]

Just so we're clear, we are okay with the point guard getting blown by?  There is no doubt that the secondary help was late, but to absolve Spradling from blame is ridiculous.

spradling got beat.  kelly rotated late.  whoever was on weakside help never even got into the camera frame.  so, it's like two guys that played poor d, and one that didn't even try.

BTW, they just replayed that play on Sportscenter and I watched it frame by frame, because of where the penetration came from, there was no secondary help man, when Curtis helped out, he wasn't late BTW, if anything he was early, his man cut to the basket behind him.  WILL should have rotated over to Curtis' man. He screwed up twice.

I don't care if he was blown by or not, he was beat, period.

will shouldn't be on a post player. 

Dead wrong, the secondary help person in that rotation will almost always be a guard.  The big helps on the guard who was beat, the player 2 passes away rotates on the big, that's nearly almost going to be the guard or forward who is two passes away likely in the opposite corner.  This is why teams like KSU who give up dribble penetration give up 3 point shots, there is where the opening is from from natural help defense rotations.

I guess Frank Martin was wrong then too.

Wrong about what?  I think you are having trouble following what's going on here

I'm tired and this discussion has reached a terrible end.  Frank Martin the only D one coach made comments similar to mine in chat about the lack of rotation on help when big men block penetration. 

I've conceded that Will allowed too much penetration with poor body position.  You got your half way. 

[redacted] I said that Will didn't mess up the help Jake did.  Like I said it's clear you don't know what is happening here.  Will would have had rotational help responsibilities on Thompson if Jake helped on Casto like he should have.  And spare me this D1 coach crap, basic help defense principles is something that a middle school girls coach should know.

you are making even less sense right now.  you are talking about will bumping out so he could help when his man is still near the post after passing from his dribble drive?  Wrong answer.  Will should have stayed put since his man was still in the key.  At that point he could help out and cover 1.5 guys (his plus help).  

Frank specifically said that the bigs were not rotating properly on penetration when one of them stepped up.  

So were clear, did you listen to the post game?  if you did what other inferences  could you draw from his comments?

[Tobias]

I said POOP!

[MakeItRain]

Just so we're clear, we are okay with the point guard getting blown by?  There is no doubt that the secondary help was late, but to absolve Spradling from blame is ridiculous.

spradling got beat.  kelly rotated late.  whoever was on weakside help never even got into the camera frame.  so, it's like two guys that played poor d, and one that didn't even try.

BTW, they just replayed that play on Sportscenter and I watched it frame by frame, because of where the penetration came from, there was no secondary help man, when Curtis helped out, he wasn't late BTW, if anything he was early, his man cut to the basket behind him.  WILL should have rotated over to Curtis' man. He screwed up twice.

I don't care if he was blown by or not, he was beat, period.

will shouldn't be on a post player. 

Dead wrong, the secondary help person in that rotation will almost always be a guard.  The big helps on the guard who was beat, the player 2 passes away rotates on the big, that's nearly almost going to be the guard or forward who is two passes away likely in the opposite corner.  This is why teams like KSU who give up dribble penetration give up 3 point shots, there is where the opening is from from natural help defense rotations.

I guess Frank Martin was wrong then too.

Wrong about what?  I think you are having trouble following what's going on here

I'm tired and this discussion has reached a terrible end.  Frank Martin the only D one coach made comments similar to mine in chat about the lack of rotation on help when big men block penetration. 

I've conceded that Will allowed too much penetration with poor body position.  You got your half way. 

[redacted] I said that Will didn't mess up the help Jake did.  Like I said it's clear you don't know what is happening here.  Will would have had rotational help responsibilities on Thompson if Jake helped on Casto like he should have.  And spare me this D1 coach crap, basic help defense principles is something that a middle school girls coach should know.

you are making even less sense right now.  you are talking about will bumping out so he could help when his man is still near the post after passing from his dribble drive?  Wrong answer.  Will should have stayed put since his man was still in the key.  At that point he could help out and cover 1.5 guys (his plus help).  

Frank specifically said that the bigs were not rotating properly on penetration when one of them stepped up.  

So were clear, did you listen to the post game?  if you did what other inferences  could you draw from his comments?

Holy crap!!!  No I'm not talking about Will doing a damn thing, other than getting beat off of the dribble.  I have said 15 times that Will did not make a mistake with his (non)help defense.

http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=8888.msg188343#msg188343

If you don't understand I can't help you

BTW, Frank did not have the luxury of watching the play on video before he made his comments, I did.

[asava]

yes

you are going to sit there and tell me that after watching that game that wsu played as well as they could have? that they couldn't have given it a better go at it? our defense will account for some % drop, and some turnovers, but our defense doesn't entirely account for a team with the #3 fg % in the nation to drop that low. they played shitty. we just played less shitty. if they had put together any semblance of a game we would have been beat.

[mcmwcat]

frank is god

[swish1]

yes

you are going to sit there and tell me that after watching that game that wsu played as well as they could have? that they couldn't have given it a better go at it? our defense will account for some % drop, and some turnovers, but our defense doesn't entirely account for a team with the #3 fg % in the nation to drop that low. they played cacty. we just played less cacty. if they had put together any semblance of a game we would have been beat.

they havent seen a defense like ours.  did you see how that idiot big man kept reacting every time the team was physical against him?  when i said "best shot" i was referring to the stretch at the end of the game when they took the lead.  not their overall game.