Free Throws

[kso_FAN]

FT% is bad, but our FT rate is a much bigger concern.  IMHO.  <40 FTR is not very JYC-ish.

[trumanorme]

Hey, I resemble that remark! I'm an old white guy with wrinkly balls, and played in the late 70's early 80's. I don't shoot underhanded, but it isn't too tough to more than 50 percent, even as an old fart.

[hemmy]

FT% is bad, but our FT rate is a much bigger concern.  IMHO.  <40 FTR is not very JYC-ish.

JYC died half way through last season

[kso_FAN]

FT% is bad, but our FT rate is a much bigger concern.  IMHO.  <40 FTR is not very JYC-ish.

JYC died half way through last season

How so?

[Kat Kid]

FT% is bad, but our FT rate is a much bigger concern.  IMHO.  <40 FTR is not very JYC-ish.

Denis.  Seriously.  Denis.

[Kat Kid]

FT% is bad, but our FT rate is a much bigger concern.  IMHO.  <40 FTR is not very JYC-ish.

Jamar and Curt too.  But Denis.

[kso_FAN]

Interesting point KK; made me think about FTA per game (a much more significant BB talking point than FT%).

Clemente/Sutton are both missed (3.6/3.3 FTA/game is quite a bit) AND the big returners (Pullen, Samuels, Kelly) are all shooting fewer FTs per game than last year.  They combine to shoot 5 fewer FTs per game.

Pullen - 5.0 to 6.7; decrease of 1.7
Samuels - 3.7 to 5.6; decrease of 1.9
Kelly - 3.5 to 4.9; decrease of 1.4

Granted, some are shooting more, namely McGruder.
McGruder - 2.0 to .7; increase of 1.3
JHR - 2.1 to .9; increase of 1.2
Russell - 1.3 to .3; increase of 1
Irving - 1.2 to .6; increase of .6

Judge has stayed the same at 1.7.

Then you have the significant newcomers; Asprilla at 1.9 and Spradling at 1.7.

So probably to get to more JYC-like numbers we'll need more attacking from Pullen, Samuels, and Kelly (of course you've got to play to get fouled), continued increases from McGruder and hopefully Judge, and likely more attempts from Asprilla and Spradling. 

[gatoveintisiete]

Interesting point KK; made me think about FTA per game (a much more significant BB talking point than FT%).

Clemente/Sutton are both missed (3.6/3.3 FTA/game is quite a bit) AND the big returners (Pullen, Samuels, Kelly) are all shooting fewer FTs per game than last year.  They combine to shoot 5 fewer FTs per game.

Pullen - 5.0 to 6.7; decrease of 1.7
Samuels - 3.7 to 5.6; decrease of 1.9
Kelly - 3.5 to 4.9; decrease of 1.4

Granted, some are shooting more, namely McGruder.
McGruder - 2.0 to .7; increase of 1.3
JHR - 2.1 to .9; increase of 1.2
Russell - 1.3 to .3; increase of 1
Irving - 1.2 to .6; increase of .6

Judge has stayed the same at 1.7.

Then you have the significant newcomers; Asprilla at 1.9 and Spradling at 1.7.

So probably to get to more JYC-like numbers we'll need more attacking from Pullen, Samuels, and Kelly (of course you've got to play to get fouled), continued increases from McGruder and hopefully Judge, and likely more attempts from Asprilla and Spradling. 

Ksu__fan just killin' it today, well done

[sys]

um, clemente had a very low ft rate.  so, that's completely wrong in every possible way.



carry on.

[kso_FAN]

um, clemente had a very low ft rate.  so, that's completely wrong in every possible way.



carry on.

Clemente/Sutton didn't approach Pullen/Samuels/Kelly in FD/40, but the combined loss is still significant.  As I said, not as significant as Pullen/Samuels/Kelly not drawing as many fouls so far this year, but still a factor in our reduced FTA/game.  Clemente/Sutton did combine for almost 7 FTA/game, I don't think that's insignificant or makes my point "wrong in every possible way".

[sys]

I don't think that's insignificant or makes my point "wrong in every possible way".

i meant mr. kk.  you were just more diplomatic than me in refuting his point.


i like kenpom's ftrate a lot more than fta for ft rate stats though (because it's better).

[kso_FAN]

I don't think that's insignificant or makes my point "wrong in every possible way".

i meant mr. kk.  you were just more diplomatic than me in refuting his point.


i like kenpom's ftrate a lot more than fta for ft rate stats though (because it's better).

Don't disagree with this.  I do think FTA/game is easier for people to "see and understand" though, especially to get them away from stupid FT% talking points.  More tangible numbers than FTrate to look at on paper for most, but yes, raw FTA/game is somewhat flawed.

[mcmwcat]

I don't think that's insignificant or makes my point "wrong in every possible way".

i meant mr. kk.  you were just more diplomatic than me in refuting his point.


i like kenpom's ftrate a lot more than fta for ft rate stats though (because it's better).

especially considering the high standard deviation in the distribution for minutes played by key team members

[mcmwcat]

I don't think that's insignificant or makes my point "wrong in every possible way".

i meant mr. kk.  you were just more diplomatic than me in refuting his point.


i like kenpom's ftrate a lot more than fta for ft rate stats though (because it's better).

especially considering the high standard deviation in the distribution for minutes played by key team members

caused by tiny sample size of games played

[nicname]

CK and Jamar shot a ton of FTs last year and made around 61% of them. 
CK and Jamar aren't getting as many minutes thus far (small sample size) and thus aren't getting to the line as much. Their combined Ftrate is down slightly but not enought to make a huge difference roughly one FT a game. They are still hitting around 61% as a tandem.
Keep in mind that Jamar and Curt have had reduced minutes this year.

Jake and Denis combined to shoot slightly over 10 Fts a game last year and made nearly 80% between them.
Jake Martavious and Spradling are shooting slightly over 7 Fts a game combined and making 66% between them.  Jake himself is shooting much worse than last year, and the MArt/sprad combo is worse than Denis (spads is money, tav is 1-7)
Jake has also had reduced minutes this year.

Not having Sutton is hurting a bit as well, and we all know that Dom was the junkiest of JYC's.

[Kat Kid]

I don't think that's insignificant or makes my point "wrong in every possible way".

i meant mr. kk.  you were just more diplomatic than me in refuting his point.


i like kenpom's ftrate a lot more than fta for ft rate stats though (because it's better).

I think our pg play has probably impacted this.  It is hard to pinpoint (tempo the same, a/fgm the same) and kenpom does not have individual stats up yet, but I think our ball movement has not been as good at getting guys to the rim.  The increased minutes of McGruder (and the lack of consistent minutes among the bigs) and our increased focus on he or tay shooting a corner three instead of rotating or driving the baseline has lead to the decrease.  Considering we are shooting about the same from 3 (and I think that could improve if Pullen can be off the ball more) this may be somewhat a philosophy in response to our players.  But I'm sure Frank would like guys getting to the line more and making their ft.

So, in closing, I think our inability to penetrate and to move the ball has hurt our ability to force fouls inside.

I also think it is early and Frank being Frank with the bigs in his doghouse is skewing some of this down.

[kso_FAN]

[I think our pg play has probably impacted this.  It is hard to pinpoint (tempo the same, a/fgm the same) and kenpom does not have individual stats up yet, but I think our ball movement has not been as good at getting guys to the rim.  The increased minutes of McGruder (and the lack of consistent minutes among the bigs) and our increased focus on he or tay shooting a corner three instead of rotating or driving the baseline has lead to the decrease.  Considering we are shooting about the same from 3 (and I think that could improve if Pullen can be off the ball more) this may be somewhat a philosophy in response to our players.  But I'm sure Frank would like guys getting to the line more and making their ft.

So, in closing, I think our inability to penetrate and to move the ball has hurt our ability to force fouls inside.

In addition to this, we've relied on the 3PT line more and the FT line less.  Last year our breakdown for %-age of points from 3PT/2PT/FT was 25.8/49.3/24.9.  This year we're at 30.2/53.4/16.4.  In addition, our 3PA/FGA this year is 35.5 compared to 32.1 last year.

Our eFG% has increased slightly, our TO% has gotten slightly worse, our OR% has stayed the same, and our FTR has decreased significantly, leading to a lower offensive efficiency.  But as others have pointed out, it is a pretty small sample size so far, and our 3PT shooting has in part made up for the deficiencies in FTA.  I'm sure that will even out some as the season goes along and Kelly/Samuels are more consistent and Pullen plays more minutes.

[swish1]

[I think our pg play has probably impacted this.  It is hard to pinpoint (tempo the same, a/fgm the same) and kenpom does not have individual stats up yet, but I think our ball movement has not been as good at getting guys to the rim.  The increased minutes of McGruder (and the lack of consistent minutes among the bigs) and our increased focus on he or tay shooting a corner three instead of rotating or driving the baseline has lead to the decrease.  Considering we are shooting about the same from 3 (and I think that could improve if Pullen can be off the ball more) this may be somewhat a philosophy in response to our players.  But I'm sure Frank would like guys getting to the line more and making their ft.

So, in closing, I think our inability to penetrate and to move the ball has hurt our ability to force fouls inside.

In addition to this, we've relied on the 3PT line more and the FT line less.  Last year our breakdown for %-age of points from 3PT/2PT/FT was 25.8/49.3/24.9.  This year we're at 30.2/53.4/16.4.  In addition, our 3PA/FGA this year is 35.5 compared to 32.1 last year.

Our eFG% has increased slightly, our TO% has gotten slightly worse, our OR% has stayed the same, and our FTR has decreased significantly, leading to a lower offensive efficiency.  But as others have pointed out, it is a pretty small sample size so far, and our 3PT shooting has in part made up for the deficiencies in FTA.  I'm sure that will even out some as the season goes along and Kelly/Samuels are more consistent and Pullen plays more minutes.

if we had players that were capable of making ft's how important would this small change in style of play be?

[jtksu]

Guys- great job taking a sport and turning it into a math competition!  :nerds:

[mcmwcat]

Guys- great job taking a sport and turning it into a math competition!  :nerds:

[kso_FAN]

Love these.

Free throws are huge for two reasons. First, they speak to a team's mental toughness. These are free points. Most mediocre high school teams can shoot at least 70%. I believe every player on our team this year is capable of shooting at least that well. Mentally tough teams/players shoot a good percentage. Let's have some accountability and not make excuses by saying it's OK to be poor FT shooters because we shoot them a lot.

Secondly, they are huge because they can 'save' a team when they have bad nights in other areas of the game. They can bail you out in other words. As KSU_Fan and Wichita_Cat have pointed out, MU can point to several valid reasons why they lost last night. However, they nail all the free throws late and all those reasons (bad D all night, dumb fouls, etc.) are moot because they would have won.

Go ask Memphis fans if free throw % matters. They shoot 70% in 2008 they win a national title.

[mcmwcat]

ASK MEMPHIS IF FREE THROWS MATTER!!!

[slimz]

Love these.

Free throws are huge for two reasons. First, they speak to a team's mental toughness. These are free points. Most mediocre high school teams can shoot at least 70%. I believe every player on our team this year is capable of shooting at least that well. Mentally tough teams/players shoot a good percentage. Let's have some accountability and not make excuses by saying it's OK to be poor FT shooters because we shoot them a lot.

Secondly, they are huge because they can 'save' a team when they have bad nights in other areas of the game. They can bail you out in other words. As KSU_Fan and Wichita_Cat have pointed out, MU can point to several valid reasons why they lost last night. However, they nail all the free throws late and all those reasons (bad D all night, dumb fouls, etc.) are moot because they would have won.

Go ask Memphis fans if free throw % matters. They shoot 70% in 2008 they win a national title.

Nice find, _FAN.

Free throws are not fracking "free points."  "Free points" would be if when you got fouled, they automatically added 2 or 3 points to your team's score.  Or even if you got to dunk the ball or shoot a layup, it would be closer to "free points."  Free throws are shot from 15 feet away from the basket.  After you've been running up and down the court and banging away.  Let's take some of those "mediocre high school teams" and let them bang away against Nolan Smith and the Plumlees for a while and then see how well they shoot from the line.  

That being said, sure, there are still plenty of D-I players who can shoot free throws better than our guys who get out there and bang away, too. (Duke comes to mind.)  Guess what:  Duke are better shooters than our guys.  Maybe the tards haven't noticed, but it's not like Jamar or Wally and Freddie are consistently hitting 13 foot J's out there.  They'll get hot and hit a couple in a row every now and then...which is the same way they shoot FTs.  Curtis was our best jump shooting big last year; unsurprisingly, he also led our bigs in FT %.  No one should be shocked that Dom was a bad FT shooter after watching his shooting from the floor.  FT's are about muscle memory and coordination, two things that some of our bigs lack.

If you're distressed by our FT %, then I would suggest you encourage Frank to recruit higher-rated players, who generally are not only as athletic as our guys but are also better shooters.  Or be glad when Frank runs guys like Dom off.  

 

[kso_FAN]

Love these.

Free throws are huge for two reasons. First, they speak to a team's mental toughness. These are free points. Most mediocre high school teams can shoot at least 70%. I believe every player on our team this year is capable of shooting at least that well. Mentally tough teams/players shoot a good percentage. Let's have some accountability and not make excuses by saying it's OK to be poor FT shooters because we shoot them a lot.

Secondly, they are huge because they can 'save' a team when they have bad nights in other areas of the game. They can bail you out in other words. As KSU_Fan and Wichita_Cat have pointed out, MU can point to several valid reasons why they lost last night. However, they nail all the free throws late and all those reasons (bad D all night, dumb fouls, etc.) are moot because they would have won.

Go ask Memphis fans if free throw % matters. They shoot 70% in 2008 they win a national title.

Nice find, _FAN.

Free throws are not shazbot!ing "free points."  "Free points" would be if when you got fouled, they automatically added 2 or 3 points to your team's score.  Or even if you got to dunk the ball or shoot a layup, it would be closer to "free points."  Free throws are shot from 15 feet away from the basket.  After you've been running up and down the court and banging away.  Let's take some of those "mediocre" high school teams and let them bang away against Nolan Smith and the Plumlees for a while and then see how well they shoot from the line. 

That being said, sure, there are still plenty of D-I players who can shoot free throws better than our guys who get out there and bang away, too. (Duke comes to mind.)  Guess what:  Duke are better shooters than our guys.  Maybe the tards haven't noticed, but it's not like Jamar or Wally and Freddie are consistently hitting 13 foot J's out there.  They'll get hot and hit a couple in a row every now and then...which is the same way they shoot FTs.  Curtis was our best jump shooting big last year; unsurprisingly, he also led our bigs in FT %.  No one should be shocked that Dom was a bad FT shooter after watching his shooting from the floor.  FT's are about muscle memory and coordination, two things that some of our bigs lack.

If you're distressed by our FT %, then I would suggest you encourage Frank to recruit higher-rated players, who generally are not only as athletic as our guys but are also better shooters.  Or be glad when Frank runs guys like Dom off. 

 

Well said.

[Sugar Dick]

This thread commands a huge amount of :did not read:


Summary:
As long as we make more FT's than the other team, I don't give a sh*t how many we take or what percent go in.  Unfortunately right now, we are making less than the other team, so it's a serious problem.

I think the problem is more "who" is shooting them, rather than "why" they aren't going in.