Author Topic: The Royals  (Read 4737968 times)

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Offline sys

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8200 on: January 17, 2014, 07:47:38 PM »
seems like a lot of money for bonifacio.  glad they're keeping him though.
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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8201 on: January 17, 2014, 08:08:41 PM »
seems like a lot of money for bonifacio.  glad they're keeping him though.

$10 million for Bonifacio and Hoch is a joke.

Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8202 on: January 17, 2014, 08:11:20 PM »
The Bonifacio thing seems pretty typical for a veteran player, even one who is just a role player. The MLBPA has it set up to get the veterans payed big time. The Hoch thing, I'm ok with I guess, but I'd really love another starter.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8203 on: January 17, 2014, 08:12:41 PM »
The Bonifacio thing seems pretty typical for a veteran player, even one who is just a role player. The MLBPA has it set up to get the veterans payed big time. The Hoch thing, I'm ok with I guess, but I'd really love another starter.

Yeah.  I'm saying for what they offer, they should be doing it in-house.  I will do some googling and come back with some examples from better organizations.

Offline sys

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8204 on: January 17, 2014, 08:19:13 PM »
paying market rate to league average and below veterans and watching your better than league average vets fly away via free agency does seem like it's probably the opposite of what smart poor organizations do.
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Offline Winters

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8205 on: January 17, 2014, 08:28:28 PM »
Bell Flanagan isn't pleased with this Brad Penny thing
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Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8206 on: January 17, 2014, 08:31:36 PM »
Bell Flanagan isn't pleased with this Brad Penny thing

Does he understand what a Minor League contract is?

Offline Winters

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8207 on: January 17, 2014, 08:32:30 PM »
Bell Flanagan isn't pleased with this Brad Penny thing

Does he understand what a Minor League contract is?
Absolutely
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Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8208 on: January 17, 2014, 08:34:14 PM »
Bell Flanagan isn't pleased with this Brad Penny thing

Does he understand what a Minor League contract is?
Absolutely

Tell him I said that's is a very low risk move financially, and although we most likely won't get any big league help from him, its worth a flyer

Offline Winters

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8209 on: January 17, 2014, 08:54:40 PM »
Bell Flanagan isn't pleased with this Brad Penny thing

Does he understand what a Minor League contract is?
Absolutely

Tell him I said that's is a very low risk move financially, and although we most likely won't get any big league help from him, its worth a flyer
He's mainly happy that the royals still have "little timmy collins" !
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 10:52:29 PM by Winters »
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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8210 on: January 17, 2014, 09:14:41 PM »
David Lough was a cost controlled outfield option.  I get that Bonifacio can play 2b, but with the signing of Infante that will mostly be over.  Now I doubt Baltimore would've been as interested in Bonifacio, but they would've been better off moving him based on price.  $4 million is a good chunk.  Here are what other teams are doing with $10MM for a utility player and a reliever.

ATL ~$10-13MM
C/1B/OF Doumit- $3.33MM
CL Kimbrel- Arb hearing: filed at $9MM/Braves filed at $6.55

CHC ~$9.25MM
OF Schierholz- $2.25
C Kottaras- $1MM
CL Veras- $4MM
2B/SS Barney- $2MM Arb prediction by MLBtraderumors

CIN ~$9.5MM
OF Ludwick- $8.5MM
RP LeCure- $1MM est. MLBTR

CHW ~$5.5MM
OF De Aza- $4.25MM
OF Garcia- $500K pre-arb eligible
CL Jones- $500K pre-arb eligible

OAK ~$10MM
CF Crisp- $7.5MM
OF Reddick- $2.5MM est MLBTR

you get the idea...

Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8211 on: January 17, 2014, 09:16:33 PM »
I bet they're thinking Hoch can be a trade piece in the season, he is more valuable elsewhere, on a team that doesn't have Holland.

Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8212 on: January 17, 2014, 09:32:05 PM »
seems like a lot of money for bonifacio.  glad they're keeping him though.

$10 million for Bonifacio and Hoch is a joke.

FYI, they aren't married and even if they were they aren't making $10m combined, so wtf are you talking about?
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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8213 on: January 17, 2014, 09:33:19 PM »
I bet they're thinking Hoch can be a trade piece in the season, he is more valuable elsewhere, on a team that doesn't have Holland.

I really hope that Hoch can be fixed as a starter, but I'm also not stupid. I would like to move that salary elsewhere, but if he produces like last season I guess I'm okay. 

Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8214 on: January 17, 2014, 09:37:06 PM »
David Lough was a cost controlled outfield option.  I get that Bonifacio can play 2b, but with the signing of Infante that will mostly be over.  Now I doubt Baltimore would've been as interested in Bonifacio, but they would've been better off moving him based on price.  $4 million is a good chunk.  Here are what other teams are doing with $10MM for a utility player and a reliever.

ATL ~$10-13MM
C/1B/OF Doumit- $3.33MM
CL Kimbrel- Arb hearing: filed at $9MM/Braves filed at $6.55

CHC ~$9.25MM
OF Schierholz- $2.25
C Kottaras- $1MM
CL Veras- $4MM
2B/SS Barney- $2MM Arb prediction by MLBtraderumors

CIN ~$9.5MM
OF Ludwick- $8.5MM
RP LeCure- $1MM est. MLBTR

CHW ~$5.5MM
OF De Aza- $4.25MM
OF Garcia- $500K pre-arb eligible
CL Jones- $500K pre-arb eligible

OAK ~$10MM
CF Crisp- $7.5MM
OF Reddick- $2.5MM est MLBTR

you get the idea...

You realize Bonafacio can play OF?  You realize Hoch had a sub 2 ERA? You realize they're getting combined less than $9m?  Do you realize how Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) your comps are?

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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8215 on: January 17, 2014, 09:44:57 PM »
I do realize Bonifacio can play outfield.  I probably should not have said $10MM, because it was a bit unfair but I rounded up twice.  The comps weren't meant to show what good organizations do with similar sizes of money and similar needs.  What was your issue with them?

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8216 on: January 17, 2014, 09:45:44 PM »
I bet they're thinking Hoch can be a trade piece in the season, he is more valuable elsewhere, on a team that doesn't have Holland.

He was a hell of a lot more valuable last year at the trade deadline.

Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8217 on: January 17, 2014, 09:55:20 PM »
[Sugar Dick Rant:::not aimed at kat kid]

Is it just me or has the casual baseball fan evolved from a fun-loving guy you could watch a game at the bar with to some unsufferable dweeb who wants to play junior gm, blog about "value" and never stfu about the sacrifice bunt?

It's painful having to listen to people who have never played the game and don't understand the game spew statistics they dont eff:ng understand in support of their predictable opinion on the game regurgitated from one of the hundreds of bastard children of bill james. Go read a phone book. Since you never played because you couldn't play your comments on the game ought to be limited to gambling, beer and tickets you scored.
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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8218 on: January 17, 2014, 10:04:19 PM »
I do realize Bonifacio can play outfield.  I probably should not have said $10MM, because it was a bit unfair but I rounded up twice.  The comps weren't meant to show what good organizations do with similar sizes of money and similar needs.  What was your issue with them?

Well, the cubs and white Sox are not good organizations, but that's my problem.  My problem with them is that they weren't comps of anything, just random guys that fit your fictional $10m criteria (sort of).

Probably the most disingenuous thing about it all is how you excluded Hosmer from the royals but included Barney and Kimbrel with the cubs and the braves.  That and including pre-arb guys in your "comps".
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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8219 on: January 17, 2014, 11:16:23 PM »
I agree somewhat on the first part, but here we are....on a blog....talking baseball.  I am in a pretty intense dynasty league with 14 teams with close to 1,000 players owned in the league.  None of this is to say that I played the game, scout players or am attempting to be a GM, but I think about baseball, possible trades and value (our fantasy league uses auctions/multi-year salaries etc.) more than most people.

the cubs are a good organization.  the sox are a bad organization that made a couple decent moves.  I could've spent more time doing the "comps."  But I just picked a few organizations I knew had some cheap guys at some of the same positions.

The pre-arb guys are precisely the point.  Don't pay vet salaries for performance you can easily find for cheaper.  The Royals have had one of the best bullpens in baseball going on 2 years now.  Even conceding that trading Hoch would cause a downgrade it could save $4MM+ that could mitigate the loss and/or result in a prospect or useful player coming back.  In addition, solid relievers are a dime a dozen assuming you already have a decent pen around them.  Hoch is not worth the price considering he's 1) a righty 2) not a closer or likely capable of closing in KC given his history.  As for Bonifacio, I am very skeptical of him being significantly better than David Lough.  David Lough was significantly cheaper.

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8220 on: January 18, 2014, 07:57:31 AM »
The cubs are a bad organization, I mean really bad.

I think your constraining yourself to a couple fictions here:
1) there is no salary cap other than what David glass chooses to spend this year. These are 1 year deals that will have no effect on the future and doesn't inhibit player development as far as I can tell.
2) Lough doesn't play infield and we already have a lh reserve of that's cheap.  We do need solid insurance at both of and if and bonafacio provides it for a very reasonable price.

Good thing is, once these guys are free agents and we have a o let them go (because multi year deal) we'll likely replace them with pre-arb guys and you'll be happy again.
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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8221 on: January 18, 2014, 08:11:11 AM »
The cubs are a bad organization, I mean really bad.

I think your constraining yourself to a couple fictions here:
1) there is no salary cap other than what David glass chooses to spend this year. These are 1 year deals that will have no effect on the future and doesn't inhibit player development as far as I can tell.
2) Lough doesn't play infield and we already have a lh reserve of that's cheap.  We do need solid insurance at both of and if and bonafacio provides it for a very reasonable price.

Good thing is, once these guys are free agents and we have a o let them go (because multi year deal) we'll likely replace them with pre-arb guys and you'll be happy again.

I don't want to go too back and forth on the Cubs however:
1)  They have assembled a very strong farm system over the past 3 years.
2)  They have one of the youngest teams in baseball

we'll see whether that works out

1) But we do know there is a "Glass" ceiling on what the Royals are going to spend, even if we don't know exactly where it is, so cost control is important and is a limited resource even if it isn't as cut and dry as roster space.

2) I agree Bonifacio is more useful as a utility guy, but I would still rather have the difference in money than the difference in utility role.  They could've signed another infield glove, kept Lough and come out with extra money to bank toward the rotation.

Really enjoying this discussion and you make a very good point on the fact that these guys will probably walk soon enough.

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8222 on: January 18, 2014, 09:34:09 AM »
David Lough was a cost controlled outfield option.  I get that Bonifacio can play 2b, but with the signing of Infante that will mostly be over.  Now I doubt Baltimore would've been as interested in Bonifacio, but they would've been better off moving him based on price.  $4 million is a good chunk.  Here are what other teams are doing with $10MM for a utility player and a reliever.

ATL ~$10-13MM
C/1B/OF Doumit- $3.33MM
CL Kimbrel- Arb hearing: filed at $9MM/Braves filed at $6.55

CHC ~$9.25MM
OF Schierholz- $2.25
C Kottaras- $1MM
CL Veras- $4MM
2B/SS Barney- $2MM Arb prediction by MLBtraderumors

CIN ~$9.5MM
OF Ludwick- $8.5MM
RP LeCure- $1MM est. MLBTR

CHW ~$5.5MM
OF De Aza- $4.25MM
OF Garcia- $500K pre-arb eligible
CL Jones- $500K pre-arb eligible

OAK ~$10MM
CF Crisp- $7.5MM
OF Reddick- $2.5MM est MLBTR

you get the idea...
These teams also suck ass and taints.

Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8223 on: January 18, 2014, 09:52:49 AM »
The cubs are a bad organization, I mean really bad.

I think your constraining yourself to a couple fictions here:
1) there is no salary cap other than what David glass chooses to spend this year. These are 1 year deals that will have no effect on the future and doesn't inhibit player development as far as I can tell.
2) Lough doesn't play infield and we already have a lh reserve of that's cheap.  We do need solid insurance at both of and if and bonafacio provides it for a very reasonable price.

Good thing is, once these guys are free agents and we have a o let them go (because multi year deal) we'll likely replace them with pre-arb guys and you'll be happy again.

I don't want to go too back and forth on the Cubs however:
1)  They have assembled a very strong farm system over the past 3 years.
2)  They have one of the youngest teams in baseball

we'll see whether that works out

1) But we do know there is a "Glass" ceiling on what the Royals are going to spend, even if we don't know exactly where it is, so cost control is important and is a limited resource even if it isn't as cut and dry as roster space.

2) I agree Bonifacio is more useful as a utility guy, but I would still rather have the difference in money than the difference in utility role.  They could've signed another infield glove, kept Lough and come out with extra money to bank toward the rotation.

Really enjoying this discussion and you make a very good point on the fact that these guys will probably walk soon enough.

I think the royals believe its rotation will be filled out internally in 2015 (Duffy, Zimmer, Ventura, Dwyer?, Lamb?) so weren't going to reach on whatever shitty SP you could get for $8M.



I don't thin $3.5M is much of anything to spend on a quality platoon guy (particulalry one who can play 6 positions and steal bases on command) and your "comps" tend to validate that. Colon will probably take Bonafacios spot in '15 as well.


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Re: The Royals
« Reply #8224 on: January 18, 2014, 09:53:54 AM »
Also, didn't we trade Lough for someone?
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