The Royals

[Kat Kid]

I read this thread a lot and I am not a Royals fan.  That said, I love Yordano and I am truly sad.  Way more sad than I was about that show off Fernandez down in Florida.

[Cartierfor3]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

The guy studied at the right hand of John Schuerholz in Atlanta. Obviously didn't learn a damned thing.

Their philosophies are similar. Scouting over stats, valuing speed and BA over OBP and OPS.

Differences: Braves had a hall of fame manager, and multiple hall of fame pitchers, along with power hitters like Chipper, David Justice, Andruw Jones, Ron Gant, Fred McGriff, etc. Royals have hired Hillman and Yost, have developed 0 pitchers besides Grienke, and haven't developed a power hitter ever. 

[ksupamplemousse]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

Dayton is pretty good at evaluating talent, which was supposed to be his strength. He's been terrible at allocating his resources (outside of the draft), which was really an unknown with him coming into the job. Coupled with his complete and total unwillingness to adopt any of the changes that sabermetrics have brought to the game, it's been a very frustrating eight years as a fan.

[Kat Kid]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

The guy studied at the right hand of John Schuerholz in Atlanta. Obviously didn't learn a damned thing.

Their philosophies are similar. Scouting over stats, valuing speed and BA over OBP and OPS.

Differences: Braves had a hall of fame manager, and multiple hall of fame pitchers, along with power hitters like Chipper, David Justice, Andruw Jones, Ron Gant, Fred McGriff, etc. Royals have hired Hillman and Yost, have developed 0 pitchers besides Grienke, and haven't developed a power hitter ever.

The difference was/is the pitching, also just the GM not getting worked on the most important trade of his career at a turning point for the organization.  The Shields trade is as awful as ever.

[Cartierfor3]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

Dayton is pretty good at evaluating talent, which was supposed to be his strength. He's been terrible at allocating his resources (outside of the draft), which was really an unknown with him coming into the job. Coupled with his complete and total unwillingness to adopt any of the changes that sabermetrics have brought to the game, it's been a very frustrating eight years as a fan.

[Jackstack99EMAW]

i still think it truly starts in the minors. the organizational philosophies start there. we are free swinging suns of guns and always have been under dayton. our players probably don't truly pay for it until they get to the show and face big league pitching day in day out for 162 games. and all of the sudden, their power potential disappears because they don't ever force pitchers to throw them hittable pitches. the royals are bitb at getting themselves out.

Very true.  They also fail to fix mechanics which are right in front of them, ie Bubba Starling's hands hitting his hip for 2 years, Hosmer's huge overstride, Moustakas' bat control and hips flying open during his swing, etc.  They also teach the same pitching mechanics to everyone and don't adjust to their players. 

[j-dub]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

Dayton is pretty good at evaluating talent, which was supposed to be his strength. He's been terrible at allocating his resources (outside of the draft), which was really an unknown with him coming into the job. Coupled with his complete and total unwillingness to adopt any of the changes that sabermetrics have brought to the game, it's been a very frustrating eight years as a fan.

is he really that great at evaluating talent tho?

moose, crow, colon, and bubba have been nothing but absolute failures. and i don't want to hear about crow being an all-star. you don't pick relief pitchers 12th overall. you pick front line starters, which he was supposed to be. that's a failed pick imo. you can't whiff on that many top 12 picks and still be called a great talent evaluator.

[Jackstack99EMAW]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

Dayton is pretty good at evaluating talent, which was supposed to be his strength. He's been terrible at allocating his resources (outside of the draft), which was really an unknown with him coming into the job. Coupled with his complete and total unwillingness to adopt any of the changes that sabermetrics have brought to the game, it's been a very frustrating eight years as a fan.

I think he's good at evaluating talent, but just absolutely god awful at developing it.

[bones129]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

The guy studied at the right hand of John Schuerholz in Atlanta. Obviously didn't learn a damned thing.

Their philosophies are similar. Scouting over stats, valuing speed and BA over OBP and OPS.

Differences: Braves had a hall of fame manager, and multiple hall of fame pitchers, along with power hitters like Chipper, David Justice, Andruw Jones, Ron Gant, Fred McGriff, etc. Royals have hired Hillman and Yost, have developed 0 pitchers besides Grienke, and haven't developed a power hitter ever.

All true. The explanation:  this ownership won't invest the resources necessary to make a Schuerholz/Moore-type plan work. The Glass family seems satisfied to hire and retain mediocre managers, mediocre hitting coaches (except Seitzer and Brett--Brett for the mental side of hitting), and medicore pitching coaches; to shy away from free agents (until the last couple of years); and to tolerate missing the playoffs year after year.

[Cartierfor3]

Dayton is pretty good at evaluating talent,

Some first round picks, Royals weren't exactly drafting in the bottom of the round either:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=starli000bub

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/moustmi01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=colon-001chr

[j-dub]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

The guy studied at the right hand of John Schuerholz in Atlanta. Obviously didn't learn a damned thing.

Their philosophies are similar. Scouting over stats, valuing speed and BA over OBP and OPS.

Differences: Braves had a hall of fame manager, and multiple hall of fame pitchers, along with power hitters like Chipper, David Justice, Andruw Jones, Ron Gant, Fred McGriff, etc. Royals have hired Hillman and Yost, have developed 0 pitchers besides Grienke, and haven't developed a power hitter ever.

The difference was/is the pitching, also just the GM not getting worked on the most important trade of his career at a turning point for the organization.  The Shields trade is as awful as ever.

what are you talking about kk. we've got wade davis in the pen for like 4 more years. i mean, good grief dude. obviously dayton probly feels like he won the world series equivalent of trades with that one. 

[Jackstack99EMAW]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

Dayton is pretty good at evaluating talent, which was supposed to be his strength. He's been terrible at allocating his resources (outside of the draft), which was really an unknown with him coming into the job. Coupled with his complete and total unwillingness to adopt any of the changes that sabermetrics have brought to the game, it's been a very frustrating eight years as a fan.

is he really that great at evaluating talent tho?

moose, crow, colon, and bubba have been nothing but absolute failures. and i don't want to hear about crow being an all-star. you don't pick relief pitchers 12th overall. you pick front line starters, which he was supposed to be. that's a failed pick imo. you can't whiff on that many top 12 picks and still be called a great talent evaluator.

I think the moose and starling picks were decent picks, they have great talent, but the org haven't developed that talent at all.  Those are all big failures, yes, but I think only half of them were due to bad talent evaluation.

[Cartierfor3]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

Dayton is pretty good at evaluating talent, which was supposed to be his strength. He's been terrible at allocating his resources (outside of the draft), which was really an unknown with him coming into the job. Coupled with his complete and total unwillingness to adopt any of the changes that sabermetrics have brought to the game, it's been a very frustrating eight years as a fan.

is he really that great at evaluating talent tho?

moose, crow, colon, and bubba have been nothing but absolute failures. and i don't want to hear about crow being an all-star. you don't pick relief pitchers 12th overall. you pick front line starters, which he was supposed to be. that's a failed pick imo. you can't whiff on that many top 12 picks and still be called a great talent evaluator.

I think the moose and starling picks were decent picks, they have great talent, but the org haven't developed that talent at all.  Those are all big failures, yes, but I think only half of them were due to bad talent evaluation.

I guess I just usually equate talent in sports with at least mildly satisfactory production but hey I'm old school.

[Cartierfor3]

Talent is Greinke. The Royals didn't do crap and he is a top 5 pitcher. That's talent. Bubba and Moose aren't talent.

[ksupamplemousse]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

Dayton is pretty good at evaluating talent, which was supposed to be his strength. He's been terrible at allocating his resources (outside of the draft), which was really an unknown with him coming into the job. Coupled with his complete and total unwillingness to adopt any of the changes that sabermetrics have brought to the game, it's been a very frustrating eight years as a fan.

I think he's good at evaluating talent, but just absolutely god awful at developing it.

Yep, Colon was really the only head scratcher of his picks, and that draft was really weak. I know people like to point to Chris Sale, but basically every team thought he would be a reliever. Most of our pitchers (except for Crow) were killing it before they got injured, that's a development issue. Most of our hitters that he's drafted have progressed really well through the minors, but don't seem to have a solid enough foundation to keep it going in the majors. It seems like our development philosophies aren't preparing the players to succeed long term.

[j-dub]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

Dayton is pretty good at evaluating talent, which was supposed to be his strength. He's been terrible at allocating his resources (outside of the draft), which was really an unknown with him coming into the job. Coupled with his complete and total unwillingness to adopt any of the changes that sabermetrics have brought to the game, it's been a very frustrating eight years as a fan.

is he really that great at evaluating talent tho?

moose, crow, colon, and bubba have been nothing but absolute failures. and i don't want to hear about crow being an all-star. you don't pick relief pitchers 12th overall. you pick front line starters, which he was supposed to be. that's a failed pick imo. you can't whiff on that many top 12 picks and still be called a great talent evaluator.

I think the moose and starling picks were decent picks, they have great talent, but the org haven't developed that talent at all.  Those are all big failures, yes, but I think only half of them were due to bad talent evaluation.

bubba hasn't hit above .200 at high A yet bud. other guys taken after him are already succeeding in the majors. woof.

moose... i don't know. he sucks balls that's all i know. he hit a ton of homers in the minors, hit pretty well when he first came up, and has done nothing but sucks balls for the past 2 years.

[bones129]

Ned says the team docs have ruled out any ligament damage. 

[Jackstack99EMAW]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

Dayton is pretty good at evaluating talent, which was supposed to be his strength. He's been terrible at allocating his resources (outside of the draft), which was really an unknown with him coming into the job. Coupled with his complete and total unwillingness to adopt any of the changes that sabermetrics have brought to the game, it's been a very frustrating eight years as a fan.

is he really that great at evaluating talent tho?

moose, crow, colon, and bubba have been nothing but absolute failures. and i don't want to hear about crow being an all-star. you don't pick relief pitchers 12th overall. you pick front line starters, which he was supposed to be. that's a failed pick imo. you can't whiff on that many top 12 picks and still be called a great talent evaluator.

I think the moose and starling picks were decent picks, they have great talent, but the org haven't developed that talent at all.  Those are all big failures, yes, but I think only half of them were due to bad talent evaluation.

I guess I just usually equate talent in sports with at least mildly satisfactory production but hey I'm old school.

Nah I get that, I'm just saying they had good raw tools to develop, Moose had excellent bat speed and projectable power out of high school, Starling had great defensive profile, great power potential, great speed, but had a very raw hit tool which the Royals have failed to develop at all since then. 

[Jackstack99EMAW]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

Dayton is pretty good at evaluating talent, which was supposed to be his strength. He's been terrible at allocating his resources (outside of the draft), which was really an unknown with him coming into the job. Coupled with his complete and total unwillingness to adopt any of the changes that sabermetrics have brought to the game, it's been a very frustrating eight years as a fan.

is he really that great at evaluating talent tho?

moose, crow, colon, and bubba have been nothing but absolute failures. and i don't want to hear about crow being an all-star. you don't pick relief pitchers 12th overall. you pick front line starters, which he was supposed to be. that's a failed pick imo. you can't whiff on that many top 12 picks and still be called a great talent evaluator.

I think the moose and starling picks were decent picks, they have great talent, but the org haven't developed that talent at all.  Those are all big failures, yes, but I think only half of them were due to bad talent evaluation.

bubba hasn't hit above .200 at high A yet bud. other guys taken after him are already succeeding in the majors. woof.

moose... i don't know. he sucks balls that's all i know. he hit a ton of homers in the minors, hit pretty well when he first came up, and has done nothing but sucks balls for the past 2 years.

I should reword that decent picks part, I think they were decent picks for the time because like I said they had good natural abilities that the Royals should have been able to develop, but didn't. 

[Jackstack99EMAW]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

Dayton is pretty good at evaluating talent, which was supposed to be his strength. He's been terrible at allocating his resources (outside of the draft), which was really an unknown with him coming into the job. Coupled with his complete and total unwillingness to adopt any of the changes that sabermetrics have brought to the game, it's been a very frustrating eight years as a fan.

I think he's good at evaluating talent, but just absolutely god awful at developing it.

Yep, Colon was really the only head scratcher of his picks, and that draft was really weak. I know people like to point to Chris Sale, but basically every team thought he would be a reliever. Most of our pitchers (except for Crow) were killing it before they got injured, that's a development issue. Most of our hitters that he's drafted have progressed really well through the minors, but don't seem to have a solid enough foundation to keep it going in the majors. It seems like our development philosophies aren't preparing the players to succeed long term.

Our philosophies aren't preparing players to succeed at all. 

[j-dub]

i remember being absolutely giddy over the dayton hire. i was on campus, walking into hale when i got a phone call from a friend and heard the news. positively giddy. good lord what a disappointing dumbass failure he has been. 

Dayton is pretty good at evaluating talent, which was supposed to be his strength. He's been terrible at allocating his resources (outside of the draft), which was really an unknown with him coming into the job. Coupled with his complete and total unwillingness to adopt any of the changes that sabermetrics have brought to the game, it's been a very frustrating eight years as a fan.

I think he's good at evaluating talent, but just absolutely god awful at developing it.

Yep, Colon was really the only head scratcher of his picks, and that draft was really weak. I know people like to point to Chris Sale, but basically every team thought he would be a reliever. Most of our pitchers (except for Crow) were killing it before they got injured, that's a development issue. Most of our hitters that he's drafted have progressed really well through the minors, but don't seem to have a solid enough foundation to keep it going in the majors. It seems like our development philosophies aren't preparing the players to succeed long term.

montgomery just lost his crap. mentally. i know he feuded with the coaches over his long toss program. dylan bundy (starling draft) refused to sign with the royals and a couple other teams because of their long toss views at the time. dwyer couldn't develop a 3rd pitch (like crow) and his fastball is straight as a mormon missionary on a bike.

[ksupamplemousse]

Maybe it's just the Royals fan in me, but I honestly feel like if the players that Dayton drafted came up through the Cardinals minor league system, then several of them would have played in October by this point. It's possible that he's not a very good talent evaluator, but I think if he has a strong suit, then that would be it.

[bones129]

Maybe it's just the Royals fan in me, but I honestly feel like if the players that Dayton drafted came up through the Cardinals minor league system, then several of them would have played in October by this point. It's possible that he's not a very good talent evaluator, but I think if he has a strong suit, then that would be it.

If they had come up through the Cards' system and made the majors, they would have played for Tony La Russa and the pitchers would have had the best pitching coach in history, Dave Duncan. (Both of whom played for the KC A's, btw). They would be winners.

[ksupamplemousse]

I'm honestly not sure that we could draft enough elite talent to make up for the multitude of diseases our organization seems to suffer from. I mean, if we drafted Trout and a bunch of other studs, but none of them ever learned how to work the count and swing at good pitches, would they be effective big leaguers?

[bones129]

Leadership at the MLB level is key. The players talked last year about how much they were positively influenced when George was in the dugout, and how much his championship-based mental attitude meant to them.

Where is the MLB level leadership among this group? (Although I think Rusty is a pretty good coach).

http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/team/coaches.jsp?c_id=kc