HFBIQ Discussion, Please: Why can't our 4-2-5 do this?

[Panjandrum]

http://www.buildingthedam.com/2010/9/3/1655936/inside-tcus-4-2-5-defense

This is a great article talking about how TCU runs their 4-2-5.  Basically, they keep it simple every single down.  They teach their secondary coverages over a three day span in the Spring.  That's it.  They've essentially broken it down into a math equation.

Can someone please tell me what we do with the 4-2-5 that's different from what they do?  Other than the obvious difference in that they have a competent defensive coaching staff and we have a bald guy that mainly drools on himself in the box.

One thing I notice is that we don't appear to shift the safeties down that much.  We tend to run some form of deep Cover 2 at all times, regardless of formation, but I don't always spend a lot of time looking at the defensive alignment because I've always been much more interested in what the offense is doing pre-snap.

TIA.

[kso_FAN]

http://www.buildingthedam.com/2010/9/3/1655936/inside-tcus-4-2-5-defense

This is a great article talking about how TCU runs their 4-2-5.  Basically, they keep it simple every single down.  They teach their secondary coverages over a three day span in the Spring.  That's it.  They've essentially broken it down into a math equation.

Can someone please tell me what we do with the 4-2-5 that's different from what they do?  Other than the obvious difference in that they have a competent defensive coaching staff and we have a bald guy that mainly drools on himself in the box.

One thing I notice is that we don't appear to shift the safeties down that much.  We tend to run some form of deep Cover 2 at all times, regardless of formation, but I don't always spend a lot of time looking at the defensive alignment because I've always been much more interested in what the offense is doing pre-snap.

TIA.

Great question, and your observation on the safeties is a good one. 

Cosh's version is much less aggressive, though we probably were as aggressive yesterday as we've been all year and brought a safety down quite a bit.

[Panjandrum]

http://www.buildingthedam.com/2010/9/3/1655936/inside-tcus-4-2-5-defense

This is a great article talking about how TCU runs their 4-2-5.  Basically, they keep it simple every single down.  They teach their secondary coverages over a three day span in the Spring.  That's it.  They've essentially broken it down into a math equation.

Can someone please tell me what we do with the 4-2-5 that's different from what they do?  Other than the obvious difference in that they have a competent defensive coaching staff and we have a bald guy that mainly drools on himself in the box.

One thing I notice is that we don't appear to shift the safeties down that much.  We tend to run some form of deep Cover 2 at all times, regardless of formation, but I don't always spend a lot of time looking at the defensive alignment because I've always been much more interested in what the offense is doing pre-snap.

TIA.

Great question, and your observation on the safeties is a good one. 

Cosh's version is much less aggressive, though we probably were as aggressive yesterday as we've been all year and brought a safety down quite a bit.

I noticed that they did bring Zimm down a few times, and not surprisingly, the kid made some tackles.

However, how many times do I see a running back come right at Hartman or Lamur in slow motion deep in the second level because their job, supposedly, is to tackle him in space as the stop gap?  Haven't they watched the tape?  Don't they realize that Hartman isn't a very good tackler and Lamur almost always guesses incorrectly?

I guess I'm just trying to figure out what we're trying to accomplish, and why other teams seem to be less confused on defense, especially in the secondary.  Either Burns has no idea what he's doing (which I doubt based on his track record), or Cosh is asking these guys to do things that are way outside of what they're comfortable doing.  Lamur didn't seem that bad last year, but I seem to remember him crashing the line a lot.  He doesn't appear to do that any more.  Maybe his inability to be anything more than a heat seeking missile pointed at the LOS is what made a physical freak like him to be lightly recruited out of Independence.

I just, for the life of me, can't seem to figure out how this 'gap sound' defense has so many holes and how the players inside of it seem less sure of what they're supposed to do after week 8 of the season than week 1.

[Pett]

Another HFBIQ defensive topic. Why in the shazbot! do our corners play so far off WR's? Those comeback routes are ALWAYS open for a good 5-10 yards.

[Panjandrum]

Another HFBIQ defensive topic. Why in the shazbot! do our corners play so far off WR's? Those comeback routes are ALWAYS open for a good 5-10 yards.

My guess is that they don't feel comfortable letting them man up and bump them at the line.  That could open them up for big plays, and as we know, this defense is designed to not give up big plays.

 

[steve dave]

Good thread imo

[Dr Rick Daris]

Good thread imo

yeah. hopefully it keeps going.

[TBL]

http://www.buildingthedam.com/2010/9/3/1655936/inside-tcus-4-2-5-defense

This is a great article talking about how TCU runs their 4-2-5.  Basically, they keep it simple every single down.  They teach their secondary coverages over a three day span in the Spring.  That's it.  They've essentially broken it down into a math equation.

Can someone please tell me what we do with the 4-2-5 that's different from what they do?  Other than the obvious difference in that they have a competent defensive coaching staff and we have a bald guy that mainly drools on himself in the box.

One thing I notice is that we don't appear to shift the safeties down that much.  We tend to run some form of deep Cover 2 at all times, regardless of formation, but I don't always spend a lot of time looking at the defensive alignment because I've always been much more interested in what the offense is doing pre-snap.

TIA.

Great question, and your observation on the safeties is a good one. 

Cosh's version is much less aggressive, though we probably were as aggressive yesterday as we've been all year and brought a safety down quite a bit.

I noticed that they did bring Zimm down a few times, and not surprisingly, the kid made some tackles.

However, how many times do I see a running back come right at Hartman or Lamur in slow motion deep in the second level because their job, supposedly, is to tackle him in space as the stop gap?  Haven't they watched the tape?  Don't they realize that Hartman isn't a very good tackler and Lamur almost always guesses incorrectly?

I guess I'm just trying to figure out what we're trying to accomplish, and why other teams seem to be less confused on defense, especially in the secondary.  Either Burns has no idea what he's doing (which I doubt based on his track record), or Cosh is asking these guys to do things that are way outside of what they're comfortable doing.  Lamur didn't seem that bad last year, but I seem to remember him crashing the line a lot.  He doesn't appear to do that any more.  Maybe his inability to be anything more than a heat seeking missile pointed at the LOS is what made a physical freak like him to be lightly recruited out of Independence.

I just, for the life of me, can't seem to figure out how this 'gap sound' defense has so many holes and how the players inside of it seem less sure of what they're supposed to do after week 8 of the season than week 1.

Good view on the safeties. Zimmerman has been getting better, but Hartman still just sucks. As twitted yesterday, "Tyson Hartman. The definition of flacid". The D would be light years better if the D-Line could get even a pinch of penetration. In retrospect, I think I'd have to change my twit to, "Kansas State Defense. The definition of flacid".

[sonofdaxjones]

I haven't seen much of TCU, but I suspect if they were to line up their defense and our defense and sprint the field, they'd be at the Gatorade table before our guys even crossed the line.

['taterblast]

Lamur coming to the line and biting on a play fake is what caused osu's second touchdown. burns was screeeeaming at lamur for that. i think our players might just suck.

[TBL]

It was kind of humerous listening to the D coaches scream at the D after their 1st touchdown. One of the coaches was screaming at a particular safety, "YOU'RE NOT A rough ridin' LINEBACKER!!!!!!".   

 

[mcmwcat]

hrebec man-covering their RB was good for some laughs.

[06wildcat]

It was kind of humerous listening to the D coaches scream at the D after their 1st touchdown. One of the coaches was screaming at a particular safety, "YOU'RE NOT A rough ridin' LINEBACKER!!!!!!".   

 

Anyone scream a Coffman "YOU'RE NOT A rough ridin' COWBOY?" He seemed to like throwing it to orange yesterday.

[Dugout DickStone]

It was kind of humerous listening to the D coaches scream at the D after their 1st touchdown. One of the coaches was screaming at a particular safety, "YOU'RE NOT A effING LINEBACKER!!!!!!".   

 

Anyone scream a Coffman "YOU'RE NOT A effING COWBOY?" He seemed to like throwing it to orange yesterday.

Oh man, his family would totally storm out of the stands and get in that coaches face. 

[Panjandrum]

It was kind of humerous listening to the D coaches scream at the D after their 1st touchdown. One of the coaches was screaming at a particular safety, "YOU'RE NOT A effING LINEBACKER!!!!!!".   

 

Anyone scream a Coffman "YOU'RE NOT A effING COWBOY?" He seemed to like throwing it to orange yesterday.

Oh man, his family would totally storm out of the stands and get in that coaches face. 

I would hope that Paul, a former pro football player, realizes that his son isn't good enough to play at this level.

As a father, I get why you don't want anyone bagging on your kid, but if you know the game and use your brain, you'd realize, "Well, yeah, I get it."

My dad played college basketball, and when my growth spurt was done, he said, "Son, you better learn how to dribble, because you're days of playing the post are over."  And, yes, he was my coach for multiple seasons.

[Dugout DickStone]

Paul thinks all of his kids are pretty freaking sweet.  He thinks Cameron is an NFL qb when he isn't even as good as Cosh.

[Rage Against the McKee]

If our defensive line wasn't a bunch of turds, the whole defense would look much better.

[Panjandrum]

Paul thinks all of his kids are pretty freaking sweet.  He thinks Cameron is an NFL qb when he isn't even as good as Cosh.

I'm assuming it burns him inside that we don't want another Coffman under center at KSU.

[Dugout DickStone]

Paul thinks all of his kids are pretty freaking sweet.  He thinks Cameron is an NFL qb when he isn't even as good as Cosh.

I'm assuming it burns him inside that we don't want another Coffman under center at KSU.

Just wait.  If Cameron wants to come to KSU I'd bet Bill gives him a schollie and plays him.

[slimz]

Paul thinks all of his kids are pretty freaking sweet.  He thinks Cameron is an NFL qb when he isn't even as good as Cosh.

I'm assuming it burns him inside that we don't want another Coffman under center at KSU.

Just wait.  If Cameron wants to come to KSU I'd bet Bill gives him a schollie and plays him.

Gotta admit I get a chuckle every week that Chase is just on an NFL practice squad.

[theymightbegiants]

Good thread imo

yeah. hopefully it keeps going.

Its a combination of a d-line that is undersized which would be decent for pass rushing if we had good linebackers which we don't. Our linebackers are a little below average but not as terrible as we all complain about but because of this when we blitz they are picked up easily and our undersized d-line sees more double teams which makes them look shotty. The undersize d-line also makes our linebackers have to stay closer to the line of scrimmage to stop the run which is why our corners play off more, and because they too are undersized we lose alot of one on one battles with recievers not because of lack of talent at corner but because linebackers take more time to drop into coverage when they closer to line of scrimage. With all that it opens up big plays over the middle which is why our safeties play back more and attempt to keep everything in front of them. Safeties are average for the big 12 but look worse because we have to rely on their decision making ability more. If we had a Josh Buhl type linebacker or Bigger D-line or larger corners who could play bump and run more effectively we wouldn't have to complain about our safeties as much as we do. TCU has a decent size D-line that fits into their scheme, Linebackers quick enough for coverage (and blitzes) who don't have to support the D-line as much for the run, and corners that can play tight more effectively, its not an issue of Cosh's scheme its an issue that is solved by recruiting some speed and bigger DT's  which our staff seems to be working on.

[kso_FAN]

Good thread imo

yeah. hopefully it keeps going.

Its a combination of a d-line that is undersized which would be decent for pass rushing if we had good linebackers which we don't. Our linebackers are a little below average but not as terrible as we all complain about but because of this when we blitz they are picked up easily and our undersized d-line sees more double teams which makes them look shotty. The undersize d-line also makes our linebackers have to stay closer to the line of scrimmage to stop the run which is why our corners play off more, and because they too are undersized we lose alot of one on one battles with recievers not because of lack of talent at corner but because linebackers take more time to drop into coverage when they closer to line of scrimage. With all that it opens up big plays over the middle which is why our safeties play back more and attempt to keep everything in front of them. Safeties are average for the big 12 but look worse because we have to rely on their decision making ability more. If we had a Josh Buhl type linebacker or Bigger D-line or larger corners who could play bump and run more effectively we wouldn't have to complain about our safeties as much as we do. TCU has a decent size D-line that fits into their scheme, Linebackers quick enough for coverage (and blitzes) who don't have to support the D-line as much for the run, and corners that can play tight more effectively, its not an issue of Cosh's scheme its an issue that is solved by recruiting some speed and bigger DT's  which our staff seems to be working on.

This is very true.  We can complain about the things that we don't like about the scheme, and those are legit.  But like any scheme, any time you have a lack of players, it doesn't matter.  Its not like we're going to insert the current players we have into another scheme and have a ton more success. 

I'm hopeful for the fact that next year you insert Brown at LB and automatically you should have a legit playmaker at that position.  I'm hopeful Burns' son, who was a very good saftey at SJSU as a SO, can step in and provide another viable option there.  But a huge key will be getting better on the front 4; Harold like many good pass rushing DEs is not very good at the run, and b/c we have no other push up front, he is limited in what he can do against the pass.  If we can develop/recruit a legit DT, I don't think its far fetched to say we could have a top 40 defense next season, even with this scheme. 

[sonofdaxjones]

You actually have to have good players . . . we don't because this staff absolutely blows at recruiting.  

For next year we still need:

2 above average Juco DT's that actually make it to campus ready to play.

1 or 2 above average Juco LB's that actually make it to campus ready to play.

1 or 2 above average Juco DE's  that actually make it to campus ready to play. . . Brandon Harold either completely blows (leaning towards this), is still hurt, or is not being coached very well.  

2 above average Juco DB's that actually make it to campus ready to play.  

Again, the "make it to campus ready to play" is something that WorstRecruitingStaffofAllTime really struggles with.  

Hopefully Burns kid is all world because we need help desperately.  

[Rage Against the McKee]

Our players suck, but in his previous jobs, Cosh had better players and still sucked. A "bend but don't break" scheme is only good when you are ahead by at least 2 scores. It really sucks when you need to get the ball back, or when you don't have an offense that is capable of consistently getting points from drives that start inside your own 20.

[ew2x4]

From what I've seen, we are similar in term of simplicity. The problem it, it's catered for slow as retards. We don't use the LB's to pressure, because they're too damn slow. They're mainly used for run defense and 5 yard/flat coverage. CB's man up. The real problem is our safeties. Whether by design or by idiocy, they do not read the O-set and do not line up properly. So when the hybrid safety has to man up or play tight zone because of 4+ wide, we don't compensate. We keep safeties deep and LB's are still reading the TE/RB.