Author Topic: O'Donnell (O'Donnell Bush Master Thread)  (Read 19563 times)

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yoga-like_abana

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2010, 04:37:30 PM »
I love how she thinks people are laughing with her.

Still looking for the "separation of church and state" in the US Constitution.  Can't seem to find it anywhere.  Those people laughing are the idiots.

While the first amendment does not contain the phrase "separation of church and state", it certainly does create that separation.

I didn't realize the first amendment was in the Constitution. 
What are you some sort of dumbass or something.  :flush:

Offline Dave Wooderson

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2010, 04:51:20 PM »
I love how she thinks people are laughing with her.

Still looking for the "separation of church and state" in the US Constitution.  Can't seem to find it anywhere.  Those people laughing are the idiots.

While the first amendment does not contain the phrase "separation of church and state", it certainly does create that separation.

I didn't realize the first amendment was in the Constitution. 
What are you some sort of dumbass or something.  :flush:

No it's an Ammendment to the Constitution in the form of the Bill of Rights.  Constitution was signed in 1787.  Bill of Rights was 1791.  Amazing how something could be in the Constitution 4-years before it was inacted. 
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Offline michigancat

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2010, 04:53:12 PM »
wtf

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2010, 04:54:30 PM »
I love how she thinks people are laughing with her.

Still looking for the "separation of church and state" in the US Constitution.  Can't seem to find it anywhere.  Those people laughing are the idiots.

While the first amendment does not contain the phrase "separation of church and state", it certainly does create that separation.

I didn't realize the first amendment was in the Constitution. 
What are you some sort of dumbass or something.  :flush:

No it's an Ammendment to the Constitution in the form of the Bill of Rights.  Constitution was signed in 1787.  Bill of Rights was 1791.  Amazing how something could be in the Constitution 4-years before it was inacted. 

Maybe you should get a dictionary and look up the word "amendment".

yoga-like_abana

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2010, 04:54:42 PM »

Offline Dave Wooderson

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2010, 05:10:45 PM »
I love how she thinks people are laughing with her.

Still looking for the "separation of church and state" in the US Constitution.  Can't seem to find it anywhere.  Those people laughing are the idiots.

Yes, Dave you won't be able to find the words "separation of church and state" in the first amendment. You can stop looking now, but thanks for checking.

To O'donnell, let's give her the benefit of the doubt and suppose that this is what she was trying to express - that congress shall make no law that would encumber the growth of religion from the government. Not to keep religion out of government as so many claim (however inartfully expressed). And she did a horrendous job - the whole scene was awkward and it is obvious to anyone that she was being laughed at by the audience, as such, it's surprising she didn't make clear her point and instead sat there grinning back at them.

Having said this, O'donnell doesn't understand the first amendment. Suggesting that the same federal standards shouldn't be applied to states, counties or cities suggests that she is ignoring subsequent amendments on the matter, or is in contempt of them.

I agree with everything you say.  Especially where this idiot can't make her own argument.

I never said she is very bright and Coons is just as big an idiot in a different direction.  Unfortunate that Delaware can't put at least two canditates out there that have some inkling of intellegence.

But the observation is that the First Amendment has and can be interpreted in a different way.  Because it is interpreted different than you or I think (yes I beleive that it should mean the Separation of Church and State) doesn't mean that the interpretation can't be well thought out.  Interpreting towards meaning and the actual words is what I am pointing out.  Groupthink can be an awful thing.  And laughing at a different idea, within the realms of reality, is sad.  Discussion of thought, meaning and ideas have left the political culture, which is very unfortunate.
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Offline Paul Moscow

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2010, 05:28:09 PM »
I love how she thinks people are laughing with her.

Still looking for the "separation of church and state" in the US Constitution.  Can't seem to find it anywhere.  Those people laughing are the idiots.

Yes, Dave you won't be able to find the words "separation of church and state" in the first amendment. You can stop looking now, but thanks for checking.

To O'donnell, let's give her the benefit of the doubt and suppose that this is what she was trying to express - that congress shall make no law that would encumber the growth of religion from the government. Not to keep religion out of government as so many claim (however inartfully expressed). And she did a horrendous job - the whole scene was awkward and it is obvious to anyone that she was being laughed at by the audience, as such, it's surprising she didn't make clear her point and instead sat there grinning back at them.

Having said this, O'donnell doesn't understand the first amendment. Suggesting that the same federal standards shouldn't be applied to states, counties or cities suggests that she is ignoring subsequent amendments on the matter, or is in contempt of them.

I agree with everything you say.  Especially where this idiot can't make her own argument.

I never said she is very bright and Coons is just as big an idiot in a different direction.  Unfortunate that Delaware can't put at least two canditates out there that have some inkling of intellegence.

But the observation is that the First Amendment has and can be interpreted in a different way.  Because it is interpreted different than you or I think (yes I beleive that it should mean the Separation of Church and State) doesn't mean that the interpretation can't be well thought out.  Interpreting towards meaning and the actual words is what I am pointing out.  Groupthink can be an awful thing.  And laughing at a different idea, within the realms of reality, is sad.  Discussion of thought, meaning and ideas have left the political culture, which is very unfortunate.


Right. However if you acknowledge that there is a pervasive understanding that resides mostly in the American collective that has derived from the interpretation of the first amendment not the literal words then you should make a convincing argument that the interpretation is incorrect.

O'donnell's absent-minded approach and the 'show me in the constitution where is says separation of church and state' (which you have done) are both tremendously inarticulate arguments and don't contribute to any discourse. Both are deserving of mockery.

Offline 06wildcat

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2010, 06:06:29 PM »
Not sure if this is a serious thread or not.

Sugar Dick

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2010, 07:49:35 PM »
What's ridiculous are the people that think separation of church and state means a blanket ban on anything even remotely representative of religion in all public places.  For example, etchings of the ten commandments in a courtroom, or saying "one nation under god" during the pledge of allegiance.  When I was in middle school we had to take down the giving tree because some lib said it was offensive to people who don't celebrate Christmas (it wasn't even an evergreen tree).

The fact of the matter is that this country was founded by people seeking religious freedom, founded on religious principles, and that religion was Christianity.  Trying to mask this fact is dishonest.

Offline jmlynch1

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2010, 08:08:21 PM »
Can't wait to see the six pillars of islam chiseled  onto the Kansas capitol. Couldn't imagine that anybody would have a problem with that.

Offline Paul Moscow

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2010, 08:14:14 PM »

The fact of the matter is that this country was founded by people seeking religious freedom, founded on religious principles, and that religion was Christianity.  Trying to mask this fact is dishonest.


You can't, on one hand, praise the idea that this nation was founded on freedom of religion and then on the other hand condemn those who uphold this idea.

Making an argument to have Christianity favored above all others is a violation of the principle you espouse.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 08:18:32 PM by Paul Moscow »

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2010, 08:52:37 PM »
I think I interpret it in the same way the founders did.

Quote from: Thomas Jefferson
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

Interesting you bring up the author of the Declaration of Independence. Courts these days would never allow that religious document to be ratified.

Offline 06wildcat

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2010, 09:19:00 PM »
What's ridiculous are the people that think separation of church and state means a blanket ban on anything even remotely representative of religion in all public places.  For example, etchings of the ten commandments in a courtroom, or saying "one nation under god" during the pledge of allegiance.  When I was in middle school we had to take down the giving tree because some lib said it was offensive to people who don't celebrate Christmas (it wasn't even an evergreen tree).

The fact of the matter is that this country was founded by people seeking religious freedom, founded on religious principles, and that religion was Christianity.  Trying to mask this fact is dishonest.


Equally ridiculous are people who claim that the government somehow "took prayer out of schools."

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2010, 09:22:03 PM »
What's ridiculous are the people that think separation of church and state means a blanket ban on anything even remotely representative of religion in all public places.  For example, etchings of the ten commandments in a courtroom, or saying "one nation under god" during the pledge of allegiance.  When I was in middle school we had to take down the giving tree because some lib said it was offensive to people who don't celebrate Christmas (it wasn't even an evergreen tree).

The fact of the matter is that this country was founded by people seeking religious freedom, founded on religious principles, and that religion was Christianity.  Trying to mask this fact is dishonest.


Equally ridiculous are people who claim that the government somehow "took prayer out of schools."

Well, they did take organized prayer out of schools, and rightfully so.

Offline 06wildcat

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2010, 09:48:22 PM »
What's ridiculous are the people that think separation of church and state means a blanket ban on anything even remotely representative of religion in all public places.  For example, etchings of the ten commandments in a courtroom, or saying "one nation under god" during the pledge of allegiance.  When I was in middle school we had to take down the giving tree because some lib said it was offensive to people who don't celebrate Christmas (it wasn't even an evergreen tree).

The fact of the matter is that this country was founded by people seeking religious freedom, founded on religious principles, and that religion was Christianity.  Trying to mask this fact is dishonest.


Equally ridiculous are people who claim that the government somehow "took prayer out of schools."

Well, they did take organized prayer out of schools, and rightfully so.

Even that's not true.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2010, 08:04:19 AM »
What's ridiculous are the people that think separation of church and state means a blanket ban on anything even remotely representative of religion in all public places.  For example, etchings of the ten commandments in a courtroom, or saying "one nation under god" during the pledge of allegiance.  When I was in middle school we had to take down the giving tree because some lib said it was offensive to people who don't celebrate Christmas (it wasn't even an evergreen tree).

The fact of the matter is that this country was founded by people seeking religious freedom, founded on religious principles, and that religion was Christianity.  Trying to mask this fact is dishonest.


Equally ridiculous are people who claim that the government somehow "took prayer out of schools."

Well, they did take organized prayer out of schools, and rightfully so.

Even that's not true.

A teacher can get into trouble if he/she leads the class in a daily prayer. This used to be common.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2010, 09:24:39 AM »
and don't require kids to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, it has the word God in it!!!!!!!!  Oh, but you must have that foot washing station for the Muslims. :users:

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2010, 09:34:40 AM »
and don't require kids to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, it has the word God in it!!!!!!!!  Oh, but you must have that foot washing station for the Muslims. :users:

I used to get worked up about people who refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance because of the words "under God" because patriotism isn't really a bad thing and I didn't want to change something that was created in the 1800's. Then I learned that the words "under God" were added as propaganda in 1954 and now I couldn't care less if the whole pledge just goes by the wayside.

Sugar Dick

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2010, 09:45:39 AM »

The fact of the matter is that this country was founded by people seeking religious freedom, founded on religious principles, and that religion was Christianity.  Trying to mask this fact is dishonest.


You can't, on one hand, praise the idea that this nation was founded on freedom of religion and then on the other hand condemn those who uphold this idea.

Making an argument to have Christianity favored above all others is a violation of the principle you espouse.

Good, because I didn't

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2010, 09:49:26 AM »
What's ridiculous are the people that think separation of church and state means a blanket ban on anything even remotely representative of religion in all public places.  For example, etchings of the ten commandments in a courtroom, or saying "one nation under god" during the pledge of allegiance.  When I was in middle school we had to take down the giving tree because some lib said it was offensive to people who don't celebrate Christmas (it wasn't even an evergreen tree).

The fact of the matter is that this country was founded by people seeking religious freedom, founded on religious principles, and that religion was Christianity.  Trying to mask this fact is dishonest.


The United States was absolutely founded on religious freedom as a core value.  And it absolutely was the intent of the founders to create strong barriers between the state promoting or establishing a state religion.  

I do not think any honest reading of the personal beliefs, practices or intent of the founders of the Declaration and Constitution would deserve the designation "founded on religious principles" in any meaningful way.  Religion has clearly shaped the history of United States, like every civilization in recorded history.  The United States remains much more religious than Europe and other states that have a history of state sponsored religion.  The religious diversity and inter-faith relationships in the United States is a strength where for others it continues to be a weakness.

I think the courts and the ACLU have in many cases attempted to maintain a bright line distinction in the establishment clause to prevent the dominance of Christianity here from creating a hostile environment.  "The War on Christmas" does have some unfortunate outcomes, but I think that it prevents some of the ugly happenings of other multi-ethnic/sect states with a large majority religion from dominating the minorities.

I think there is certainly room for plenty of debate on this subject, there is probably room to move the discussion toward more tolerance of currently prohibited practices.  But the issue in your story about the tree was one that comes from the litigiousness of American society, not necessarily the establishment clause.  And your list of pet peeves, does gloss over the incredible dominance of Christianity and the fact that "God" is on our money.  I'm not saying that is in any way offensive on its face, but it speaks to the normative dominance of the Christian faith.  

Claiming victimization, as a majority no less, instead of crafting an argument about why philosophically and in practice changes in interpretation of the establishment clause would be better, is on par with O'Donnell's "contribution" to this debate.

Sugar Dick

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2010, 10:56:51 AM »

I do not think any honest reading of the personal beliefs, practices or intent of the founders of the Declaration and Constitution would deserve the designation "founded on religious principles" in any meaningful way.  Religion has clearly shaped the history of United States, like every civilization in recorded history.  The United States remains much more religious than Europe and other states that have a history of state sponsored religion.  The religious diversity and inter-faith relationships in the United States is a strength where for others it continues to be a weakness.



Offline OregonSmock

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2010, 06:08:12 PM »
Just when you think the right wing can't get any more ignorant....
 

:facepalm:

Offline Jeffy

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2010, 08:09:39 PM »
Just when you think the right wing can't get any more ignorant....
 

:facepalm:

Quote from: Juan Williams
"This is one of the things in my life that is just so shocking," Williams said. "I grew up basically on the left, I grew up here in New York City. And I always thought the right wing were the ones that were inflexible, intolerant.

Offline OregonSmock

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2010, 08:18:43 PM »
Well if Juan Williams said it, it must be true. 


 :flush:

Offline Dirty Sanchez

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Re: O'Donnell
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2010, 09:40:38 PM »
Rule of thumb #1 in politics: if the left accuses the right of something, you can guarantee they are guilty of it themselves.

Projection deflection.