Author Topic: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good  (Read 4396 times)

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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #150 on: April 01, 2024, 07:57:09 PM »
Why on earth would a landlord have a tenant forcibly removed from their home if they’re following the lease?

This seriously happens all the time for various reasons with scumbag landlords. I'm guessing the most common is to get out lower income tenants in gentrifying areas in favor of a sale or bringing in higher-end tenants. Death of an owner leading to inheritors of the property to force tenants out for a quick sale is probably also common (although pretty sure this is somewhat legal in some cases). The tenant could be paying rent but demanding repairs that the landlord doesn't want to make. So yeah, landlords have all kinds of incentive to evict legal tenants and probably do it successfully way more often squatters illegally take over a vacation home already.

If a tenant stops paying rent without being prepared to make their case in court or to a police officer that’s on them.

I'm not sure that's what's being discussed necessarily but I think making your case in court is very different than making your case to a police officer. That's the biggest shift with this law - the courts don't need to be involved any more, it's just up to the cops.


Not sure the current state of the law, but seems like an easy fix anyway. Create a legal right to recover penalties and all legal expenses if you were wrongfully kicked out of your rental. I think that would be another common ground issue.

I don't think a right to recover legal expenses if you are illegally evicted is a good trade for making it easier for landlords to kick people out of their homes without a trial.

I'm still struggling to see how any of this makes anti-squatting laws a net negative. All the bad landlord stuff you're talking about are things landlords are currently doing extra judicially in order to skirt the laws. Under an anti-squatter law, why would scumbag landlords involve law enforcement--who could easily determine that they're doing something illegally--when the landlords already have the other tricks in their scumbag toolbelt?

because it makes the process quicker and easier and more effective and is sponsored by the state, mostly.

I think your hangup just comes down to the fact that you assume the law will be used to effect illegal evictions without any evidence of whether that's likely or not. Unless I missed something in what you posted, nothing suggests that legal processes are being systemically abused--landlords are just using tactics that are outside of what the law provides, in which case it's all "illegal" even if the occupant really has no legal right to be there.

If we're going on conjecture, I think you have just as good of a reason to think that "illegal" evictions will actually go down because landlords will be incentivized to use the new, more efficient process rather than try to scare people off in order to avoid the expense of court.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #151 on: April 01, 2024, 08:38:48 PM »
Why on earth would a landlord have a tenant forcibly removed from their home if they’re following the lease?

This seriously happens all the time for various reasons with scumbag landlords. I'm guessing the most common is to get out lower income tenants in gentrifying areas in favor of a sale or bringing in higher-end tenants. Death of an owner leading to inheritors of the property to force tenants out for a quick sale is probably also common (although pretty sure this is somewhat legal in some cases). The tenant could be paying rent but demanding repairs that the landlord doesn't want to make. So yeah, landlords have all kinds of incentive to evict legal tenants and probably do it successfully way more often squatters illegally take over a vacation home already.

If a tenant stops paying rent without being prepared to make their case in court or to a police officer that’s on them.

I'm not sure that's what's being discussed necessarily but I think making your case in court is very different than making your case to a police officer. That's the biggest shift with this law - the courts don't need to be involved any more, it's just up to the cops.


Not sure the current state of the law, but seems like an easy fix anyway. Create a legal right to recover penalties and all legal expenses if you were wrongfully kicked out of your rental. I think that would be another common ground issue.

I don't think a right to recover legal expenses if you are illegally evicted is a good trade for making it easier for landlords to kick people out of their homes without a trial.

I'm still struggling to see how any of this makes anti-squatting laws a net negative. All the bad landlord stuff you're talking about are things landlords are currently doing extra judicially in order to skirt the laws. Under an anti-squatter law, why would scumbag landlords involve law enforcement--who could easily determine that they're doing something illegally--when the landlords already have the other tricks in their scumbag toolbelt?

because it makes the process quicker and easier and more effective and is sponsored by the state, mostly.

I think your hangup just comes down to the fact that you assume the law will be used to effect illegal evictions without any evidence of whether that's likely or not. Unless I missed something in what you posted, nothing suggests that legal processes are being systemically abused--landlords are just using tactics that are outside of what the law provides, in which case it's all "illegal" even if the occupant really has no legal right to be there.

If we're going on conjecture, I think you have just as good of a reason to think that "illegal" evictions will actually go down because landlords will be incentivized to use the new, more efficient process rather than try to scare people off in order to avoid the expense of court.

I'm less concerned with whether or not tenants are removed "illegally" and more concerned with an effective removal of eviction due process for tenants.

Like, yeah I think more tenants in good standing will be removed "legally" under this law. Maybe the number of "illegal" evictions go down but the end result is someone on the street either way

Offline CNS

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #152 on: April 01, 2024, 08:43:52 PM »
There was a huge backlog of tenant/landlord cases right after Covid. I knew a guy who did t pay rent for 8months because it took that long for the case to be heard. He was an open/crap case too. He was subleasing from someone else who did t pay their rent for at least one month before he moved in. Also, the original renter’s lease didn’t even allow for a sublease. One and shut, yet he got almost. Year for free.

Obviously that is unique to Covid, but losing a month or two income can be a big deal to a landlord. I imagine this law will help reduce the occurrence of that a little bit, at least.

Online Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #153 on: April 03, 2024, 09:10:29 AM »
If I had a squatter in my place, I'd grab a rake and poke at him, yelling "Go on, get!!!" over and over until he stood his squatting ass up and left the premises.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #154 on: April 03, 2024, 09:13:13 AM »
If I had a squatter in my place, I'd grab a rake and poke at him, yelling "Go on, get!!!" over and over until he stood his squatting ass up and left the premises.

 :D

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #155 on: April 03, 2024, 09:37:42 AM »
I had a long post typed up that referenced South Africa's white farmers building arsenals and fortresses to protect their land being taken as part of the land re-distribution plan that allotted 30% of white land to be put in to black hands (about 10% happened through government purchases on behalf of black farmers and another 15% through black people just buying the land at market rates from whites, so this was never a real seizure despite everyone that knows what the Rhodesian flag looks like looping a video of the ANC chanting "kill the Boer").

All that being said, there is a through line that applies to how land was first declared "property" and given the full backing of the state in these United States of America.

That the punishment for trespassing should be extrajudicial vigilante execution is a pretty great example of the property rights brainworms at the very core of the US. Worth considering that the gun is quick to come out to "protect" the property when that was also the means used to procure it originally.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #156 on: April 03, 2024, 09:44:35 AM »
Yeah based on the description in the article it seems pretty common sense to me. It specifically excludes tenants who are in a legal dispute with the landlord.

I did a bit more research and I think the genuine opposition to this is related to tenant rights. Before this law passed, the courts would need to verify documents and records regarding the tenancy before evictions. The new law shifts that role to the police and could allow a landlord to say a valid tenant is a "squatter" and get the police to remove them without any court involvement. Your last sentence is an incentive for landlords to use this law to kick out legal tenants before they can take a dispute to court. The tenants would be on the street and THEY would have to take the case to court while also needing a place to live. (or in sys and Greg Abbot's case, you could just murder them if you want them out).

So going back to Desantis, he's taking fringe Fox News cases like the lady in Queens that have minimal overall financial impact to justify removing basic tenant rights. Even assuming the "squatters" in this case are 100% wrong, we shouldn't remove the rights of all tenants to earn anti-woke political points.

Landlords squeal like pigs about tons of things. You can put this in the category of "organized crime shoplifting runs rampant."

It is useful to find egregious outlier examples that play to people's basic sense of fairness and reinforce the current power structures to obscure the other deeply unjust power structures that are not in the open.

Target wants to close some stores, they have a bad quarter or two and they trot out the unsympathetic drug addicts and shoplifters and cry to the media. Zero statistics to back it up, but it is now in a huge chunk of the country's mind. Meanwhile they are raising prices and BY FAR the biggest group of thieves are wage thieves (corporations and small businesses which are often worse) which affects almost 1/5th of the working poor in this country.  Heard of that? Not as much as people stealing stuff from the shelves.

https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-from-workers-paychecks-each-year/

Online Pete

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #157 on: April 03, 2024, 09:48:09 AM »
Every piece of land on the face of the earth was seized by force once upon a time. At some point don’t the conquered peoples/cultures/governments objections need to be ignored and the best course of action is that we need to just accept it and move on?

Do we still need to be sensitive about the Akkadians and how their land was taken and changed hands a dozen or more times over the last 4000 years?

Offline steve dave

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #158 on: April 03, 2024, 09:49:41 AM »
Every piece of land on the face of the earth was seized by force once upon a time. At some point don’t the conquered peoples/cultures/governments objections need to be ignored and the best course of action is that we need to just accept it and move on?

Do we still need to be sensitive about the Akkadians and how their land was taken and changed hands a dozen or more times over the last 4000 years?
Did Benjamin Netanyahu write this post?


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Online Pete

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #159 on: April 03, 2024, 09:54:18 AM »
Every piece of land on the face of the earth was seized by force once upon a time. At some point don’t the conquered peoples/cultures/governments objections need to be ignored and the best course of action is that we need to just accept it and move on?

Do we still need to be sensitive about the Akkadians and how their land was taken and changed hands a dozen or more times over the last 4000 years?
Did Benjamin Netanyahu write this post?


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Isn’t he standing on the Canaanites land?

Offline Spracne

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #160 on: April 03, 2024, 10:08:46 AM »
Every piece of land on the face of the earth was seized by force once upon a time. At some point don’t the conquered peoples/cultures/governments objections need to be ignored and the best course of action is that we need to just accept it and move on?

Do we still need to be sensitive about the Akkadians and how their land was taken and changed hands a dozen or more times over the last 4000 years?
Did Benjamin Netanyahu write this post?


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!!!

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #161 on: April 03, 2024, 10:35:32 AM »
I had a long post typed up that referenced South Africa's white farmers building arsenals and fortresses to protect their land being taken as part of the land re-distribution plan that allotted 30% of white land to be put in to black hands (about 10% happened through government purchases on behalf of black farmers and another 15% through black people just buying the land at market rates from whites, so this was never a real seizure despite everyone that knows what the Rhodesian flag looks like looping a video of the ANC chanting "kill the Boer").

All that being said, there is a through line that applies to how land was first declared "property" and given the full backing of the state in these United States of America.

That the punishment for trespassing should be extrajudicial vigilante execution is a pretty great example of the property rights brainworms at the very core of the US. Worth considering that the gun is quick to come out to "protect" the property when that was also the means used to procure it originally.

I'm not ashamed to say that I have no idea what you're getting at here.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #162 on: April 03, 2024, 10:44:14 AM »
Every piece of land on the face of the earth was seized by force once upon a time. At some point don’t the conquered peoples/cultures/governments objections need to be ignored and the best course of action is that we need to just accept it and move on?

Do we still need to be sensitive about the Akkadians and how their land was taken and changed hands a dozen or more times over the last 4000 years?

I agree, this like most of our political questions is a matter of force, not non-aggression principle. And while force makes sense to most of the "muh guns, muh house" types that hitler on wheels is preaching to, there is plenty of time and money spent on our national mythos and our "divine providence" being the "gift" of land. When we know that was just not the case.

To grant this conception of property rights value, we must excuse not only the original sin of theft, but quite a bit more than that:

The land was deliberately taken by force from the original occupants who were in use of it at the time, the subsequent labor force (black people) that cultivated huge swathes of it and never tasted the fruits of their labor, once black people were "freed" were often  put back to work as renters or "squatters" on the land and in the same hovels that they had been forced to live in prior. To the extent that property rights were "respected" at pretty much any point in history the terms and conditions were exclusively defined and enforced by the rich and powerful. The philosophical underpinnings are only in service of the power structure already in place. To the extent that those things changed, it was people that demanded the state re-distribute this bounty to a more just and equal end against the protestations of the rich who claimed this was "theft" of the "fruits of their labor." Which is such a distortion of both terms that it is worth revisiting.

The concept of "property rights" in the US is based upon Locke and it is supposed to give this real philosophical sheen, but his formulation of "life, liberty, and property" did not make it in to the Constitution because that ideas has some unfortunate byproducts:

"Though the earth, and all inferiour creatures, be common to all men, yet every man has a property in his own person: this nobody has any right to but himself. The labour of his body, and the work of his hands, we may say, are properly his."

but if we talk about who gets to have the land to begin with then that is a little more complicated. Even the freak libertarians acknowledge this problem as being unfair:

For example, economist Murray Rothbard stated (in Man, Economy, and State):

"If Columbus lands on a new continent, is it legitimate for him to proclaim all the new continent his own, or even that sector 'as far as his eye can see'? Clearly, this would not be the case in the free society that we are postulating. Columbus or Crusoe would have to use the land, to 'cultivate' it in some way, before he could be asserted to own it.... If there is more land than can be used by a limited labor supply, then the unused land must simply remain unowned until a first user arrives on the scene. Any attempt to claim a new resource that someone does not use would have to be considered invasive of the property right of whoever the first user will turn out to be."

But this is also absurd on its face, because it is just force all the way down...(Who gets to get to the land? When do I get to begin enforcing my rights? Can I elbow someone on the way to the land I want?) and with all of that largely unremarked upon or hand waved away, what do we really have here? Another hint that our property rights might not be very fair is the very much intended and very specific hereditary rules of inheritance property rights which obviously exclude many generations to come from ever being able to own land without their own violent conquest or a democracy deciding that property rights based on feudal ideas might need some updating.

So, to my mind, you are right Pete. We should acknowledge that property rights are the spoils of war.

We should stop pretending that they have any sort of justice to them.

To the extent that sys and others are arguing that property rights are a foundational precursor to society and without them there would be uncontrolled vigilante justice by the strong against the weak--It is worth remembering that they are the ones that reject the state exercising due process on behalf of both parties and want to get straight to shooting.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #163 on: April 03, 2024, 10:45:47 AM »
I had a long post typed up that referenced South Africa's white farmers building arsenals and fortresses to protect their land being taken as part of the land re-distribution plan that allotted 30% of white land to be put in to black hands (about 10% happened through government purchases on behalf of black farmers and another 15% through black people just buying the land at market rates from whites, so this was never a real seizure despite everyone that knows what the Rhodesian flag looks like looping a video of the ANC chanting "kill the Boer").

All that being said, there is a through line that applies to how land was first declared "property" and given the full backing of the state in these United States of America.

That the punishment for trespassing should be extrajudicial vigilante execution is a pretty great example of the property rights brainworms at the very core of the US. Worth considering that the gun is quick to come out to "protect" the property when that was also the means used to procure it originally.

I'm not ashamed to say that I have no idea what you're getting at here.

see my follow up, might be more confusing or clear up my thoughts. I report, you decide.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #164 on: April 03, 2024, 10:49:23 AM »
I had a long post typed up that referenced South Africa's white farmers building arsenals and fortresses to protect their land being taken as part of the land re-distribution plan that allotted 30% of white land to be put in to black hands (about 10% happened through government purchases on behalf of black farmers and another 15% through black people just buying the land at market rates from whites, so this was never a real seizure despite everyone that knows what the Rhodesian flag looks like looping a video of the ANC chanting "kill the Boer").

All that being said, there is a through line that applies to how land was first declared "property" and given the full backing of the state in these United States of America.

That the punishment for trespassing should be extrajudicial vigilante execution is a pretty great example of the property rights brainworms at the very core of the US. Worth considering that the gun is quick to come out to "protect" the property when that was also the means used to procure it originally.

I'm not ashamed to say that I have no idea what you're getting at here.

see my follow up, might be more confusing or clear up my thoughts. I report, you decide.

Bro, no one is going to read that. Well, maybe like two people will.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #165 on: April 03, 2024, 10:53:19 AM »
well I hope you are one of them. :shy:

Offline Spracne

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #166 on: April 03, 2024, 11:04:37 AM »
well I hope you are one of them. :shy:

Alright, as a favor I went back and read it. The whole first half, I was thinking about responding with Locke. And then you absolutely went there, like a boss. What a ride.

Offline Trim

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #167 on: April 03, 2024, 02:20:03 PM »
Everyone should follow the lease agreements, including the lack thereof.

A renter should also point to the lease agreement when a squatter breaks into their apartment and declares that they now live there too.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #168 on: April 03, 2024, 03:55:21 PM »
I had a long post typed up that referenced South Africa's white farmers building arsenals and fortresses to protect their land being taken as part of the land re-distribution plan that allotted 30% of white land to be put in to black hands (about 10% happened through government purchases on behalf of black farmers and another 15% through black people just buying the land at market rates from whites, so this was never a real seizure despite everyone that knows what the Rhodesian flag looks like looping a video of the ANC chanting "kill the Boer").

All that being said, there is a through line that applies to how land was first declared "property" and given the full backing of the state in these United States of America.

That the punishment for trespassing should be extrajudicial vigilante execution is a pretty great example of the property rights brainworms at the very core of the US. Worth considering that the gun is quick to come out to "protect" the property when that was also the means used to procure it originally.

I'm not ashamed to say that I have no idea what you're getting at here.

see my follow up, might be more confusing or clear up my thoughts. I report, you decide.

I only took the very last sentence to be germane to the last couple pages ITT:

Quote
To the extent that sys and others are arguing that property rights are a foundational precursor to society and without them there would be uncontrolled vigilante justice by the strong against the weak--It is worth remembering that they are the ones that reject the state exercising due process on behalf of both parties and want to get straight to shooting.

I think that's deliberately mischaracterizing what most folks are getting at in order to fit the philosophical points you wanted to make. "Due process" means  a right to have your day in court, it does not mean you are entitled to maintain the status quo until that day comes. The question is who should bear the burden unless and until that day comes.

The assumption I've been operating under (because no one ITT has said otherwise) is that: (1) in most places, the law says the property owner bears the burden of allowing alleged squatters to remain rent free until a court orders otherwise, and (2) anti-squatting laws would shift it so that an owner/landlord has the option to initially prove that they own the property and the other person is not entitled to be there, in which case they are not required to accommodate the person until a court decides the issue.

That system does not strike me as unfair, regardless of how you feel about whether anyone has a true "right" to own property.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #169 on: April 03, 2024, 04:34:34 PM »
You make it sound really simple but I’m not willing to put another badge on armed cops that says they are judges capable of on the spot comprehending a rental agreement and deed or figuring out what a water bill means. Those things are called evidence. In addition, to my earlier point, I have a hard time getting all worked up about this when the much more frequent and much more costly issue is landlords stealing people’s security deposits with outrageous claims and refusing to fix things that endanger renters.

I too, was a renter in Manhattan, KS like many of you. I am aware that college students are not always easy on apartments, but the landlords of manhattan have consistently not allowed for mandatory rental inspections to ensure that buildings are up to code and safe. Currently there is a Report it! App and less than 1% of all properties have been inspected. I’d be more concerned about these common issues for the people in the precarious situation currently, than creating a fast rack for renters to get evicted under some program designed to empower landlords to declare who is squatting on their property and then the renter having to seek legal recourse on the back end.

Don’t like it? Don’t be a landlord.

I am sympathetic to people trying to settle an estate dispute that have to deal with this, but that can be handled without opening the door to obvious abuse by landlords

I just refuse to take seriously people that are claiming “this could happen to you!” And trying to say tomorrow you could be forced from your own home by hordes of homeless.

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #170 on: April 03, 2024, 04:57:35 PM »
this seems like a perfect task for the social workers (or whatever the term that is used for the non-police that can respond to a situation that could be de-escalated without violence). I'm sure those social workers can have enough training/ability to dispassionately evaluate whatever evidence is available at the time, and if it is determined the accused is indeed squatting, then they can be summarily evicted (while still getting their day in court.)

i think it should also be the case that if you are evicted under such circumstances that you get your day in court very quickly, like, within 2-3 days. Because obviously if the landlord can drag it out, delay, that is just that much more time the evicted is essentially homeless and i'd bet dollars to donuts the longer you've been homeless, the less likely you are to win any pending litigation.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #171 on: April 03, 2024, 06:34:07 PM »


I had a long post typed up that referenced South Africa's white farmers building arsenals and fortresses to protect their land being taken as part of the land re-distribution plan that allotted 30% of white land to be put in to black hands (about 10% happened through government purchases on behalf of black farmers and another 15% through black people just buying the land at market rates from whites, so this was never a real seizure despite everyone that knows what the Rhodesian flag looks like looping a video of the ANC chanting "kill the Boer").

All that being said, there is a through line that applies to how land was first declared "property" and given the full backing of the state in these United States of America.

That the punishment for trespassing should be extrajudicial vigilante execution is a pretty great example of the property rights brainworms at the very core of the US. Worth considering that the gun is quick to come out to "protect" the property when that was also the means used to procure it originally.

I'm not ashamed to say that I have no idea what you're getting at here.

see my follow up, might be more confusing or clear up my thoughts. I report, you decide.

I only took the very last sentence to be germane to the last couple pages ITT:

Quote
To the extent that sys and others are arguing that property rights are a foundational precursor to society and without them there would be uncontrolled vigilante justice by the strong against the weak--It is worth remembering that they are the ones that reject the state exercising due process on behalf of both parties and want to get straight to shooting.

I think that's deliberately mischaracterizing what most folks are getting at in order to fit the philosophical points you wanted to make. "Due process" means  a right to have your day in court, it does not mean you are entitled to maintain the status quo until that day comes. The question is who should bear the burden unless and until that day comes.

The assumption I've been operating under (because no one ITT has said otherwise) is that: (1) in most places, the law says the property owner bears the burden of allowing alleged squatters to remain rent free until a court orders otherwise, and (2) anti-squatting laws would shift it so that an owner/landlord has the option to initially prove that they own the property and the other person is not entitled to be there, in which case they are not required to accommodate the person until a court decides the issue.

My issue is you just think way too highly of cops' ability to determine "proof", especially in a complicated situation such as a tenant dispute. Like, a wrongful arrest is very disruptive and problematic and we all agree it is wrong but it is not nearly as problematic or permanently damaging as a wrongful eviction could be.

Offline catastrophe

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Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #172 on: April 03, 2024, 07:40:16 PM »
It’s a fair criticism. I’m torn as to whether policy should be informed by assuming law enforcement sucks at their job, but I agree that any law involving the removal of someone who CLAIMS to have a legal right to be on a property should only be enforced by someone with clear and specific training in that area.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #173 on: April 03, 2024, 08:15:40 PM »
It’s a fair criticism. I’m torn as to whether policy should be informed by assuming law enforcement sucks at their job

judging guilt or innocence (or validity of residence) is not their job! (but I guarantee they would suck at it if it was part of their job)

Offline Spracne

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Re: Thread for when someone on the other side does something good
« Reply #174 on: April 03, 2024, 08:20:16 PM »
It’s a fair criticism. I’m torn as to whether policy should be informed by assuming law enforcement sucks at their job

judging guilt or innocence (or validity of residence) is not their job! (but I guarantee they would suck at it if it was part of their job)

Yeah. Cops generally suck. Not all, but most.