Author Topic: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance  (Read 3008 times)

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Offline MakeItRain

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Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« on: June 20, 2021, 10:32:13 PM »
This is a couple of weeks old but this ProPublica piece about the uber rich in this country and how little they pay in taxes should have been all over the news, it was largely ignored, I have to think due to the overwhelming corporate ownership of news outlets.

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax

Quote
No one among the 25 wealthiest avoided as much tax as Buffett, the grandfatherly centibillionaire. That’s perhaps surprising, given his public stance as an advocate of higher taxes for the rich. According to Forbes, his riches rose $24.3 billion between 2014 and 2018. Over those years, the data shows, Buffett reported paying $23.7 million in taxes.
That works out to a true tax rate of 0.1%, or less than 10 cents for every $100 he added to his wealth.

Quote
A spokesman for Soros said in a statement: “Between 2016 and 2018 George Soros lost money on his investments, therefore he did not owe federal income taxes in those years. Mr. Soros has long supported higher taxes for wealthy Americans.”

Quote
Our analysis of tax data for the 25 richest Americans quantifies just how unfair the system has become.

By the end of 2018, the 25 were worth $1.1 trillion.

For comparison, it would take 14.3 million ordinary American wage earners put together to equal that same amount of wealth.

The personal federal tax bill for the top 25 in 2018: $1.9 billion.

The bill for the wage earners: $143 billion.


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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2021, 12:30:02 AM »
It’s not surprising, IMO. Buffet especially comes across as one of the most pragmatic public figures I can think of. Even if he thinks the tax policy is ridiculous he’s not going to pay in more than he’s required (especially into a hilariously inefficient system).

That out of the way it is laughable how little we have done to get a higher tax rate out of the super rich. I get the arguments about “you would only get $X out of it” but I don’t see that as a legitimate argument against something entirely common sense that has a net benefit on taxpayers.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2021, 02:11:10 AM »
It’s not surprising, IMO. Buffet especially comes across as one of the most pragmatic public figures I can think of. Even if he thinks the tax policy is ridiculous he’s not going to pay in more than he’s required (especially into a hilariously inefficient system).

That out of the way it is laughable how little we have done to get a higher tax rate out of the super rich. I get the arguments about “you would only get $X out of it” but I don’t see that as a legitimate argument against something entirely common sense that has a net benefit on taxpayers.

What's crazy is the tax rate for the rich doesn't even need to be the least bit exorbitant, it just needs to exist and do so without loopholes, which isn't a thing right now.

The most frustrating thing about this is that a large majority of Americans either don't know, don't care, and/or completely tolerant of this. It's easy to point to and blame politicians for completely ceding power to the ultra wealthy, but it's us the taxpayers, the electorate, who allow this to happen. We could absolutely fix this. We can elect people of either party who insist on correcting it, but we haven't, we won't, and it's maddening that we allow these so few people dictate every single aspect of our fiscal policy.

Offline MadCat

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2021, 09:09:55 AM »
The ultra-rich accept little to no annual income in the form of wages.  They use their stock holdings to build their wealth and use it as a tax shelter.

Offline IPA4Me

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2021, 09:57:49 AM »
Thus, tax codes need to be reformed. You get taxed based on value of stock at time of transfer. After that, you get taxed on gains should you sell them for profit.

Offline MadCat

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2021, 02:15:03 PM »
They are probably able to transfer holdings outside the U.S. as well in order to avoid that, right?

Offline sys

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2021, 03:15:04 PM »
do people on here actually think we should tax unrealized gains?
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2021, 03:17:07 PM »
feel free to make arguments for or against here, but i'm going to make the question a poll too.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2021, 03:29:54 PM »
Hasn't Yglesias been all over the stepped up basis around this topic (heirs selling stocks ect and what gains they are tax responsible for if the previous person basically never sold but took out loans as income based on their value)?

not that i've noticed.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline 8manpick

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2021, 03:31:52 PM »
I don’t really understand why these articles compare the taxes some rich guy paid to his net worth given that we don’t tax net worth.  I understand why the writers of the articles do it, but they are intentionally misleading.
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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2021, 03:33:47 PM »
do people on here actually think we should tax unrealized gains?
I think having large tax rates on lines of credit extended on equities and crypto would help not only tax coffers but probably reduce a fair bit of volatility and fragility in the system as it could limit some margin calls.

Offline sys

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2021, 03:48:02 PM »
do people on here actually think we should tax unrealized gains?
I think having large tax rates on lines of credit extended on equities and crypto would help not only tax coffers but probably reduce a fair bit of volatility and fragility in the system as it could limit some margin calls.

i think it'd be simpler (and i think simple is good) to just tax consumption if getting revenue in a timely manner is a large concern.  i personally don't see a problem with waiting till someone dies either.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2021, 03:56:49 PM »
do people on here actually think we should tax unrealized gains?
I think having large tax rates on lines of credit extended on equities and crypto would help not only tax coffers but probably reduce a fair bit of volatility and fragility in the system as it could limit some margin calls.

i think it'd be simpler (and i think simple is good) to just tax consumption if getting revenue in a timely manner is a large concern.  i personally don't see a problem with waiting till someone dies either.
Yeah consumption taxes are just another game of whack-a-mole imo if you are trying to target the rich.  I think a higher inheritance tax would be really good.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2021, 04:10:43 PM »
Consumption seems like it should be the tax of choice for a lot of obvious reasons. But as long as income tax is the main tax of choice I’m not at all opposed to a “wealth tax” above something stupid like $200 million.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2021, 05:01:26 PM »
I don’t really understand why these articles compare the taxes some rich guy paid to his net worth given that we don’t tax net worth.  I understand why the writers of the articles do it, but they are intentionally misleading.

Did you read part of it and take this away or did you just assume the premise of the article because that's not at all what they did. The point of the article is specifically the ways 25 specific people avoid paying taxes. Net worth is only used as a starting point because whomever leaked these documents used these people.

I'm sure ProPublica would have no problem reporting the tax rate on the top 25 reported incomes in America if they had that data, but that defeats the purpose given reported income is just income people are willing to claim for tax purposes or in the case of most Americans income they cannot legally hide for tax purposes.

Offline 8manpick

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Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2021, 10:01:58 PM »
I don’t really understand why these articles compare the taxes some rich guy paid to his net worth given that we don’t tax net worth.  I understand why the writers of the articles do it, but they are intentionally misleading.

Did you read part of it and take this away or did you just assume the premise of the article because that's not at all what they did. The point of the article is specifically the ways 25 specific people avoid paying taxes. Net worth is only used as a starting point because whomever leaked these documents used these people.

I'm sure ProPublica would have no problem reporting the tax rate on the top 25 reported incomes in America if they had that data, but that defeats the purpose given reported income is just income people are willing to claim for tax purposes or in the case of most Americans income they cannot legally hide for tax purposes.
I just read the quotes you selected and posted, but I think I’ve read a half-dozen articles with a similar premise in the last couple years.

The “true tax rate” cited in your first quote is specifically nonsense.
:adios:

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2021, 11:31:37 PM »
I don’t really understand why these articles compare the taxes some rich guy paid to his net worth given that we don’t tax net worth.  I understand why the writers of the articles do it, but they are intentionally misleading.

Did you read part of it and take this away or did you just assume the premise of the article because that's not at all what they did. The point of the article is specifically the ways 25 specific people avoid paying taxes. Net worth is only used as a starting point because whomever leaked these documents used these people.

I'm sure ProPublica would have no problem reporting the tax rate on the top 25 reported incomes in America if they had that data, but that defeats the purpose given reported income is just income people are willing to claim for tax purposes or in the case of most Americans income they cannot legally hide for tax purposes.
I just read the quotes you selected and posted, but I think I’ve read a half-dozen articles with a similar premise in the last couple years.

The “true tax rate” cited in your first quote is specifically nonsense.

I'm certain you have never read an article written by an entity with the tax returns in hand for the 25 richest Americans, but whatever.

Offline IPA4Me

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2021, 02:03:04 PM »
do people on here actually think we should tax unrealized gains?
In my example, yes. I disagree with the way compensation is done with stock payments. They are avoiding income tax and paying tax only when they cash at a likely lower tax rate.


Tax code should be written differently. Tax at market value as income. Then you can pay on gains or take a deduction if you sell for a loss.

Offline catastrophe

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Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2021, 04:33:52 PM »
And importantly you can “realize” a lot of those gains without paying tax on them. The most obvious example being donating stock. You get to deduct the full value of the shares donated without ever paying tax on the appreciation. (Side note: Betterment has this as a feature and I feel fancy af when I use it.)

Offline sys

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2021, 06:36:13 PM »
not to come out on either side of the should charitable donations be tax-deductable debate, but when the sell is "the ultra-rich have tax loopholes you can't even begin to imagine" and the reveal is "they give their money away rather than pay taxes" i feel like i've been oversold a bit.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2021, 07:07:10 PM »
My personal position on taxing the rich is not centered around the notion of treating everyone the same. I just think the super rich should pay a much larger proportion of their income in taxes than pretty much any other American and that a wealth tax is an efficient way to accomplish that.

Offline sys

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2021, 07:17:55 PM »
I just think the super rich should pay a much larger proportion of their income in taxes than pretty much any other American and that a wealth tax is an efficient way to accomplish that.

hard to imagine it'd be a more efficient way to accomplish that goal than just taxing the income at whatever rate you think is best.
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Offline Spracne

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2021, 08:49:34 PM »
Ultra rich don't have too much income, as already noted. In order to implement the "wealth tax" being discussed ITT, it would take a radical departure from centuries of property law related to trusts. Could be dicey. Or could maybe be as simple as amending the definition of "income" under the IRS code. Never really studied it. Personally, I don't believe Congress will ever close such a door without opening a window.

Offline sys

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Re: Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2021, 09:57:07 PM »
Ultra rich don't have too much income, as already noted.

he specifically said he wanted to increase taxes on their income, which is why i suggested increasing taxes on their income.
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Offline catastrophe

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Soros & Buffet, All Hat No Cattle, Kings of Tax Avoidance
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2021, 10:10:46 PM »
Ultra rich don't have too much income, as already noted.

he specifically said he wanted to increase taxes on their income, which is why i suggested increasing taxes on their income.
You misread. I said they should pay a much larger proportion of their income in taxes than any other American. And even then I should have said percentage, because I have no issue with the tax being a multiple of what they actually make in “income.”