Author Topic: Student Free Speech  (Read 585 times)

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Offline Kat Kid

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Student Free Speech
« on: April 26, 2021, 11:05:33 AM »
I know we talked about it in another thread, but it looks like the Supreme Court will be weighing in on this soon.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-court-cheerleader-first-amendment/2021/04/25/9d2ac1e2-9eb7-11eb-b7a8-014b14aeb9e4_story.html


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Offline Cire

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2021, 11:30:07 AM »
https://www.vox.com/2021/4/26/22364154/supreme-court-guns-second-amendment-new-york-state-rifle-corlett-shootings-kavanaugh-barrett

supreme court master thread.

They're going to rule for the cheeleader and gun rights. IMO

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2021, 11:36:16 AM »
I'm expecting them to rule against the cheerleader, for the gun nuts.

Offline star seed 7

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2021, 11:38:26 AM »
I know I'm an old man millenial weirdo introvert, but it's always shocking to me how many "friends" people have on social media and just blast their stupid crap out to all of them.

Anyway, pretty stupid thing to get kicked out of cheerleading for. (stupid by the school)
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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2021, 11:44:44 AM »
If the cheer team doesn't want her on it, they shouldn't have to keep her on it.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2021, 11:47:21 AM »
The fact that it is an extracurricular may give them an easy out if they want a narrow ruling, but I could see a number of justices (on both sides) wanting a pretty maximalist ruling.

It will be really interesting to see where people come down as there are a bunch of ways to see this falling.

The only thing I am confident in is that Thomas will write a concurring or dissent saying students have no rights and that parents have absolute rights, and schools have almost absolute rights under in loco parentis.
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Offline memphis

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2021, 05:44:23 PM »
I know I'm an old man millenial weirdo introvert, but it's always shocking to me how many "friends" people have on social media and just blast their stupid crap out to all of them.

Anyway, pretty stupid thing to get kicked out of cheerleading for. (stupid by the school)

Yea it's interesting, like if she did that in person at school at lunch, the school would be justified that saying eff you while flipping the bird is unacceptable. She tried to control the audience but failed due to being a cheerleader and someone deciding they needed to share (maybe in good faith)? Seems v internet in the question of context, intent and who chooses the audience. Kind of wonder how generational divide and familiarity vs immersion with social media plays into any ruling.

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2021, 09:08:42 PM »
Getting reprimanded by the school for something you say on social media is stupid, because it’s really not hard for people who have an issue with it to either: (1) report it as a violation of the platform’s TOS, or (2) block you. There is a pretty robust system of checks and balances already in place for that speech.

However, I think it’s totally fair game to reprimand someone for being a terrible person as EVIDENCED on social media (like saying they are poorly representing the school or team or club or whatever).

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2021, 01:11:47 AM »
Getting reprimanded by the school for something you say on social media is stupid, because it’s really not hard for people who have an issue with it to either: (1) report it as a violation of the platform’s TOS, or (2) block you. There is a pretty robust system of checks and balances already in place for that speech.

However, I think it’s totally fair game to reprimand someone for being a terrible person as EVIDENCED on social media (like saying they are poorly representing the school or team or club or whatever).

Dealing with this right now and hoo boy I couldn't disagree with you anymore. My 6th grader was minding her own business and was added to a Snapchat group with other 6th graders. In that chat there was one lil' white supremacist who said "eff the Jews." This turned into another kid who said "eff the fruit loops" and "eff the skittles squad" referring to those who identify as lgtbq and their allies. Then this turned into several kids talking about how much they hate gay people. The junior klansman who said eff the jews also said he wished someone killed all of the fruit loops. Then one little girl took a screenshot of a boy in the class who PMed her and asked her for a picture of her. The boy is definitely slow but I don't know what if any diagnosis he has. Then two different kids in the chat called him either Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) or rough ridin' Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).

Other than posting the screenshot I don't know if any of that is a violation of the Snapchat TOS, you could make an argument for any of it but none of it is clear. I asked my daughter what she wanted us to do and she did want us to report it, so we took photos of the chat, screenshotting Snapchat would have doxxed her, although I'm certain they're going to know it's her given she's one of like three of the so called skittles squad in her grade.

I know the "but my rights" crew runs deep here but the school has to do something, because it isn't like that behavior is just contained to social media and nowhere else. The next day one of the boys called her skittles squad to her face, after what happened in Snapchat the night before. Now without the context of what happened before you are taking a clear case of targeted harassment and not doing anything about it because "muh freedoms."

It's really easy to take a first amendment over everything stance when you are looking at these things like hypotheticals and not like real actual situations with real people who are effected by the behavior. Humanely speaking and practically speaking erring on the side of protecting your students who need to be protected is always the right thing to do. Making the decision to take action not only protects your students, but it's the most likely path to keeping your job, and potentially keeping your school or district out of the news cycle because you decided to protect the completely unestablished right of an adolescent to walk the line between harassment and protected expression.

There are much more clear, safe, practical, and humanizing ways to protect the first amendment that, like the second amendment gets used as a shield far too often, frequently by people with nefarious intent.

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2021, 09:25:20 AM »
Getting reprimanded by the school for something you say on social media is stupid, because it’s really not hard for people who have an issue with it to either: (1) report it as a violation of the platform’s TOS, or (2) block you. There is a pretty robust system of checks and balances already in place for that speech.

However, I think it’s totally fair game to reprimand someone for being a terrible person as EVIDENCED on social media (like saying they are poorly representing the school or team or club or whatever).

Dealing with this right now and hoo boy I couldn't disagree with you anymore. My 6th grader was minding her own business and was added to a Snapchat group with other 6th graders. In that chat there was one lil' white supremacist who said "eff the Jews." This turned into another kid who said "eff the fruit loops" and "eff the skittles squad" referring to those who identify as lgtbq and their allies. Then this turned into several kids talking about how much they hate gay people. The junior klansman who said eff the jews also said he wished someone killed all of the fruit loops. Then one little girl took a screenshot of a boy in the class who PMed her and asked her for a picture of her. The boy is definitely slow but I don't know what if any diagnosis he has. Then two different kids in the chat called him either Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) or rough ridin' Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).

Other than posting the screenshot I don't know if any of that is a violation of the Snapchat TOS, you could make an argument for any of it but none of it is clear. I asked my daughter what she wanted us to do and she did want us to report it, so we took photos of the chat, screenshotting Snapchat would have doxxed her, although I'm certain they're going to know it's her given she's one of like three of the so called skittles squad in her grade.

Well for starters, unless these kids were held back, they’re all in violation of Snapchat’s TOS because you have to be 13 years old.

Also, seems like a violation of the rule against bullying, intimidation, and harassment.

Quote
6. Respecting Other People’s Rights
Snap Inc. respects the rights of others. And so should you. You therefore may not use the Services, or enable anyone else to use the Services, in a manner that:

violates or infringes someone else’s rights of publicity, privacy, copyright, trademark, or other intellectual property right.

bullies, harasses, or intimidates.

defames.

spams or solicits our users.


https://snap.com/en-US/terms

Offline memphis

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2021, 04:39:05 PM »
Relying on a TOS seems kind of dumb. How or if they rule on targeted harassment vs just saying shitty things will be interesting. I'd assume it will be kind of what catastrophe was saying, social media can be used as context or evidence in a pattern of behavior to make sure that it won't extend onto school grounds. I'd assume that already happens tho with stuff like fights off of school grounds.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2021, 04:50:31 PM »
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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2021, 05:02:29 PM »
I don't see the cheerleader's removal from the team as a punishment for speech as much as it was the coach's decision to give the position to someone who wasn't such a whiny bitch.

Offline cfbandyman

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2021, 05:07:49 PM »
Getting reprimanded by the school for something you say on social media is stupid, because it’s really not hard for people who have an issue with it to either: (1) report it as a violation of the platform’s TOS, or (2) block you. There is a pretty robust system of checks and balances already in place for that speech.

However, I think it’s totally fair game to reprimand someone for being a terrible person as EVIDENCED on social media (like saying they are poorly representing the school or team or club or whatever).

Dealing with this right now and hoo boy I couldn't disagree with you anymore. My 6th grader was minding her own business and was added to a Snapchat group with other 6th graders. In that chat there was one lil' white supremacist who said "eff the Jews." This turned into another kid who said "eff the fruit loops" and "eff the skittles squad" referring to those who identify as lgtbq and their allies. Then this turned into several kids talking about how much they hate gay people. The junior klansman who said eff the jews also said he wished someone killed all of the fruit loops. Then one little girl took a screenshot of a boy in the class who PMed her and asked her for a picture of her. The boy is definitely slow but I don't know what if any diagnosis he has. Then two different kids in the chat called him either Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) or rough ridin' Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).

Other than posting the screenshot I don't know if any of that is a violation of the Snapchat TOS, you could make an argument for any of it but none of it is clear. I asked my daughter what she wanted us to do and she did want us to report it, so we took photos of the chat, screenshotting Snapchat would have doxxed her, although I'm certain they're going to know it's her given she's one of like three of the so called skittles squad in her grade.

I know the "but my rights" crew runs deep here but the school has to do something, because it isn't like that behavior is just contained to social media and nowhere else. The next day one of the boys called her skittles squad to her face, after what happened in Snapchat the night before. Now without the context of what happened before you are taking a clear case of targeted harassment and not doing anything about it because "muh freedoms."

It's really easy to take a first amendment over everything stance when you are looking at these things like hypotheticals and not like real actual situations with real people who are effected by the behavior. Humanely speaking and practically speaking erring on the side of protecting your students who need to be protected is always the right thing to do. Making the decision to take action not only protects your students, but it's the most likely path to keeping your job, and potentially keeping your school or district out of the news cycle because you decided to protect the completely unestablished right of an adolescent to walk the line between harassment and protected expression.

There are much more clear, safe, practical, and humanizing ways to protect the first amendment that, like the second amendment gets used as a shield far too often, frequently by people with nefarious intent.

In general I empathize with all of that, I don't in particular have an issue with reprimands, and of course your example shows it can happen both in person and online, and that really is the muddling issue IMO with needing the school to reprimand. If the school chooses to of course, but I also feel if it's off campus it's a hard thing and an appeal to authority to go to the school. The kicker being with so many kids "at home" and connected where does school end and being? It's all so very entangled. In a perfect world in my mind things that don't happen during school time between two individuals not on campus is not the schools business, how can the school essentially control the behavior of pupils in a setting it doesn't control, and then be on the hook to pass punishment on it? It just seems like a tough sled.

It's like to me, if it happens "in school" then the school can easy deal with it, if it involves an employee of the school, in or out of school, clearly they can deal with it, two classmates doing something after hours not in school, ehh, what can they do? I feel if as a parent you notice this you have the right to go to the school, explain the situation, and then be like a mediator between your daughter and this kid, and if the kid's parents need to be involved so be it, but I guess my thing is, what do you want the school to do? Hey, on this app we don't own you're telling one of your classmates after school she's a so and so and that's not cool so 2 weeks detention? It's not so much free speech or consequence free speech but for (at least part of this story) what business does the school have on some of these things? If it happened literally in class then of course, do what needs to be done.

What I really wish would happen and this is more back to that Jadyn McPherson or w/e shithead at k-state would do is essentially instead of punishing, or expelling or removing the problem, you are an institution of learning, put the kid through some education, teach them why it's bad, something like that, just straight punishing people rarely actually teaches a lesson except "don't get caught" doing what is wrong. Instill why it is.
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Offline cfbandyman

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2021, 05:17:21 PM »
Also, and not to belay it too much, but like I think what my mom has told me as she works in school (my sister too), they are more or less given some rudimentary training to observe students behaving a certain way, or if they come to school with bruises a lot, or always seem to show signs of being abused. It has been the schools responsibility for example to help identify that since often the child (especially in this case) isn't going to get help from the abusive parents/guardians. And that is something clearly outside of school and not the school to do, but for them to look out for. So i would imagine therefore interpersonal disputes can also be brought to the school to help resolve it.
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Offline Cire

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2021, 05:55:35 PM »
My sister said that her high school cheer team had a code of conduct that held the student athletes to a higher standard than everyone else. She said that it wasn’t zero tolerance but kids could absolutely get booted for crap like that, just not on the first offense.

I have zero idea if that’s part of the schools case in this instance though


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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2021, 09:38:28 PM »

First of all, I can't believe I agree with both Cavanaugh and Thomas

This is the best case scenario here. Ruling for the student is the common sense play here, thankfully it seems like they are going to pass on making any larger ruling on the role of schools and policing social media behavior.

These schools need to be able to deal with the difference between someone saying eff cheerleading on social media and someone saying all non whites need to be exterminated. The first amendment shouldn't be used as a shield against common sense or having to make hard decisions, which protects students, but may be unpopular with some people.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2021, 08:39:06 AM »
The school didn't do anything to the girl who said"eff cheerleading," though.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2021, 07:09:39 PM »
The school didn't do anything to the girl who said"eff cheerleading," though.

She was suspended from cheerleading for a year.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2021, 08:43:56 PM »
The school didn't do anything to the girl who said"eff cheerleading," though.

She was suspended from cheerleading for a year.

Yeah, any other team in any sport that makes cuts at any school in America would have done the same thing. If a coach would rather have another, less whiny, kid on the team, they should be able to make that happen. Nobody needs to put up with that crap from someone on the JV team.

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2021, 10:02:29 PM »
Yes but it’s a pretty major difference between a school being asked to punish a statement, and an extracurricular kicking someone off for apparently not even being interested in the activity.

If SCOTUS is able to say this is just a case of the second, that’s what they’ll probably go with.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2021, 10:14:46 PM »
The school didn't do anything to the girl who said"eff cheerleading," though.

She was suspended from cheerleading for a year.

Yeah, any other team in any sport that makes cuts at any school in America would have done the same thing. If a coach would rather have another, less whiny, kid on the team, they should be able to make that happen. Nobody needs to put up with that crap from someone on the JV team.

LOL, only the baby crap softest coach in the history of soft baby crap would do this. Who the eff wants athletes that are cool with not making varsity? You foster an atmosphere of competition and then get all in your feelings when one of the competitors are pissed they fell short of their goal, come on man I refuse to believe that you or anyone else on here would get their feelings hurt by a high school sophomore flipping the bird on Instagram.

You're also making a ton of assumptions here. Yes, it's possible that this girl was a pain in the ass outside of that post. However, judging by the heavy handed, overly emotional reaction of the coaches I'm more inclined to believe that these coaches probably didn't even picked the best cheerleaders based on merit. Seriously, how easy would it have been to say "she's mad about being on JV? Tough crap, deal with it or quit." This case is noteworthy because the coaches and school handled this like total sensitive bitches, not because some 15 year old got mad at a decision an adult made. That crap happens every minute of every day.

Bro, you might be too sensitive to be around teenagers. Don't coach, like ever.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2021, 10:25:37 PM »
Imagine a world where coaches suspended kids for a year because they express disappointment on not making varsity. LOL WTF. The most famous athlete in the history of our country was notably pissed about being cut as a sophomore, literally everyone older than 5 knows that story.

Imagine being transformed to Laney High School, Wilmington, NC in 1978. You post the varsity squad on the wall and then go back to your office with your other coaches. You hear someone yell, "man eff this!" while they hit the wall. You storm out of your office, see this skinny ass 6'2" sophomore kid named Michael and that kid hurt your feelings so badly by being pissed that you tell him, "you know what no basketball for you, no JV you're off." You'd be the most mocked person in the history of people.


Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2021, 11:45:26 PM »
I think the ability of the athlete matters a great deal here. If it were a sport like basketball and the kid had potential, I would expect the coach to make him/her run. That would be every bit as much of a free speech violation as removal from the team is, though.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Student Free Speech
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2021, 11:53:28 PM »
I think the ability of the athlete matters a great deal here. If it were a sport like basketball and the kid had potential, I would expect the coach to make him/her run. That would be every bit as much of a free speech violation as removal from the team is, though.

... would it?