Author Topic: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump  (Read 16931 times)

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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #500 on: April 03, 2020, 11:03:56 AM »
Market based is always going to be more expensive.
@bentren

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #501 on: April 03, 2020, 11:28:15 AM »
Yeah, I get that but I think the healthcare industry is so big in the country that gutting it will kill the economy and leave a lot of working class Americans without jobs. So control the prices for the industry and cap profits and executive salaries, that way that industry can continue to exist, but expand medicaid.

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #502 on: April 03, 2020, 11:30:36 AM »
I like the discussion of this issue because it's like a microcosm of a larger Bernie/anti-Bernie approach.

I'm surprised that they haven't started shouting that since lockdown doesn't save all lives that it's useless.

HOW DOES YOUR LOCKDOWN ADDRESS INCOME INEQUALITY!?!?

Offline Justwin

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #503 on: April 03, 2020, 12:30:47 PM »
if health care is just such an obvious case I’d rather you just acknowledge this one.

what do you want me to acknowledge?

you know that i think the us health care system is a giant crap show and also that i don't think m4a would do much to fix it.

What would you be in favor of for the health care system in the US?  I agree with everyone that the health care system in the US is terrible, but I am not a Medicare For All or NHS-style health care system proponent.

Interested in why you think the US should continue to be a global outlier on this? If you care about covering more people or costs, I think we have to be honest that market based has been tried and failed.

I favor a market based system with heavy price controls, on every aspect of the health care system. I would like to see an expanded need based medicare system, for those who can't buy into the private system.

Do you see this as a type of Singapore-style system?

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #504 on: April 03, 2020, 01:51:43 PM »
if health care is just such an obvious case I’d rather you just acknowledge this one.

what do you want me to acknowledge?

you know that i think the us health care system is a giant crap show and also that i don't think m4a would do much to fix it.

What would you be in favor of for the health care system in the US?  I agree with everyone that the health care system in the US is terrible, but I am not a Medicare For All or NHS-style health care system proponent.

Interested in why you think the US should continue to be a global outlier on this? If you care about covering more people or costs, I think we have to be honest that market based has been tried and failed.

I favor a market based system with heavy price controls, on every aspect of the health care system. I would like to see an expanded need based medicare system, for those who can't buy into the private system.

Do you see this as a type of Singapore-style system?

:ck: Not familiar enough with Singapore to know. I'll look into that but initially I wonder if something in Singapore could be scaled here.

Online sys

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #505 on: April 03, 2020, 02:52:28 PM »
I'm confused as to why you all progressives only favor m4a or why you think there's only one m4a model.

probably because my brain has been rotted by exposure to twitter bernie bros who've spent the last year telling everyone that anything other the m4a is equivalent to murdering the poor.


Or why you think any m4a model proposed is "superficial and tiresome,"

i don't think m4a is superficial and tiresome i think the way american progressives (meaning rose twitter + sanders and warren as presidential candidates) talk about it is superficial and tiresome.  i'm pretty agnostic on m4a.


you also think the current system is broken, and your only alternative is to go to a plan that already failed.

i don't agree that obamacare has failed - it has expanded access and i believe the evidence suggests that it has bent the cost curve a little bit.  nonetheless, you are mistaken in assuming i think continuing with some form of obamacare is the only alternative or the most desirable alternative.


Your view on any m4a plan seems to be dripping with some unsaid agenda.

my "agenda" is mostly that i think the emphasis on health care policy over the course of the primary was generally stupid since it is abundantly obvious that there will not be the votes in congress to make any large scale changes during the next four years.

and then also that i dislike how people frame and discuss the issue, as mentioned above.


I'm not a m4a proponent, although I do favor a government takeover of the entire health care system.

i'm also more favorable about a govt run hc system (or partially govt run) than an m4a type arrangement, although i think that any discussion that doesn't start with an acknowledgment that countries around the world have wildly different systems and most of them work better than us hc does either is dishonest or reflects a viewpoint so ideologically fixated that i don't trust any diagnosis of us problems that might result.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline michigancat

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #506 on: April 03, 2020, 03:23:42 PM »
my "agenda" is mostly that i think the emphasis on health care policy over the course of the primary was generally stupid since it is abundantly obvious that there will not be the votes in congress to make any large scale changes during the next four years.

couldn't the same be said about any policy issue discussed in the Democratic primary? I like the discussion because I think the President using their platform to drive public opinion is almost as important as the execution. You might argue it's more important when there's an opposition party in the Senate who won't work with you on anything at all.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 03:39:28 PM by michigancat »

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #507 on: April 03, 2020, 03:33:52 PM »
couldn't the same be said about any policy issue discussed in the Democratic primary?

yeah, it was just overdone and more obviously dumb to me with healthcare.  but yeah.  and i do realize they had to talk about it (some).  you couldn't run for the dem nomination in 2020 without a healthcare proposal.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline michigancat

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #508 on: April 03, 2020, 03:44:09 PM »
couldn't the same be said about any policy issue discussed in the Democratic primary?

yeah, it was just overdone and more obviously dumb to me with healthcare.  but yeah.  and i do realize they had to talk about it (some).  you couldn't run for the dem nomination in 2020 without a healthcare proposal.

Just curious, what would your preferred central issue have been?

Online sys

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #509 on: April 03, 2020, 03:46:20 PM »
immigration.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline Chingon

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #510 on: April 03, 2020, 08:31:27 PM »
immigration.
That's a loser in this country though. You're better off pretending to be a socialist.

Online sys

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #511 on: April 03, 2020, 09:18:16 PM »
yeah, dem voters didn't want to hear anything beyond let the babies out of cages and 'pub voters find even that to be unacceptably lenient.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #512 on: April 04, 2020, 12:54:26 PM »
It would be nice to at least have a fringe 3rd party weirdo running on open borders to at least drag the dems that direction.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #513 on: April 04, 2020, 01:48:52 PM »
Even us Greens don't believe in open borders.

Offline Bqqkie Pimp

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #514 on: April 16, 2020, 08:19:23 AM »
I think this explains what changed from Obama to Trump about as well as anything...  Media portrayal becomes most people's reality whether its fair or not.

bears are fast...

Offline sonofdaxjones

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What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #515 on: April 16, 2020, 08:21:40 AM »
Just numbers: Jan 2009-Jan 2017

Offline ChiCat

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #516 on: April 16, 2020, 08:24:21 AM »
I think this explains what changed from Obama to Trump about as well as anything...  Media portrayal becomes most people's reality whether its fair or not.


It looks like the defecit as a percentage of GDP was 50% higher (or more) for Trump's bill

Offline star seed 7

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #517 on: April 16, 2020, 09:01:33 AM »
Just numbers: Jan 2009-Jan 2017

You really do have blinders when it comes to this president don't you,   :lol:
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #518 on: April 16, 2020, 09:27:50 AM »
Just numbers: Jan 2009-Jan 2017

You really do have blinders when it comes to this president don't you,   :lol:
Hey dummy, I’ve ripped him on spending multiple times and the defense budget. 

You always get pissed off when you’re reminded you gave zero fucks about the deficit for 8 years.

Online chum1

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #519 on: June 04, 2020, 08:22:40 AM »

Online 8manpick

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Re: What Has Changed? Obama to Trump
« Reply #520 on: June 04, 2020, 10:18:00 AM »
wow, look at obummer not social distancing at all!
:adios: