Author Topic: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests  (Read 25970 times)

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Offline 8manpick

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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #75 on: August 21, 2018, 11:37:13 AM »
Seems reasonable that the catholic doctrine itself is to blame for attracting deviants to the priesthood.  Forbid sexual activity not meant for procreation with a spouse under threat of eternal damnation, create a celibate position of religious authority, and any deviant true believer might see the priesthood as their best path to salvation.
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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2018, 11:42:07 AM »
Seems reasonable that the catholic doctrine itself is to blame for attracting deviants to the priesthood.  Forbid sexual activity not meant for procreation with a spouse under threat of eternal damnation, create a celibate position of religious authority, and any deviant true believer might see the priesthood as their best path to salvation.
I think the priesthood naturally attracts some deviants, just like a number of other professions attract deviants.

I really don't follow your logical progression of how (1) condemning sexual promiscuity (2) leads to sexual deviants joining the priesthood.


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Offline catastrophe

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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2018, 11:43:21 AM »
The Church should also be focused on better reporting and enforcement measures, but doing a better job of barring the bad apples from the priesthood in the first place is just as important. To that end, while the undeniable homosexual element to the abuse makes people very uncomfortable from a PC standpoint, it is relevant when considering how to best prevent future abuse.

Some gays such as Andrew Sullivan acknowledge the link but believe that it's the closeted, sexually repressed, and self-hating nature (his words) of gays who choose to enter the priesthood that makes them particularly prone to being abusers. So is the solution to allow priests to marry, thus making the Church a less enticing draw for that sort of person? Seems like a good idea to me for all sorts of reasons - not just this. Or maybe the solution is to allow gay priests to serve openly (let's get real - that's not gonna happen). Or maybe be more stringent in barring homosexuals from entering the priesthood (hard to see how that's practical, or consistent with the idea that priests are supposed to be celibate anyway).

It's a difficult but important issue for the Church (and really everyone). What we don't need is the typical liberal politically correct denial of the obvious and efforts to shut down any discussion on the topic by calling people bigots, etc.

Can you just explain what you mean by "the undeniable homosexual element"?

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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #78 on: August 21, 2018, 11:46:22 AM »
He's saying most of the victims are post-pubescent boys so it's a gay problem and not a pedophile problem per se.  I've never understood it.  If it was a gay problem, these guys could go a few towns over and hit up grindr. 

That said, a separate issue is that there's apparently a fair amount of gay sex that occurs in seminaries.  However, I see that as more of a Church issue than one requiring the attention of secular society.


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Offline 8manpick

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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2018, 11:50:22 AM »
Seems reasonable that the catholic doctrine itself is to blame for attracting deviants to the priesthood.  Forbid sexual activity not meant for procreation with a spouse under threat of eternal damnation, create a celibate position of religious authority, and any deviant true believer might see the priesthood as their best path to salvation.
I think the priesthood naturally attracts some deviants, just like a number of other professions attract deviants.

I really don't follow your logical progression of how (1) condemning sexual promiscuity (2) leads to sexual deviants joining the priesthood.
(1) it is not merely condemning sexual promiscuity. It is condemning any non-spousal sex, any birth control, any sodomy, etc. (2) if you really believe all of that crap, like actually think you are damned to eternal hell for it, and you naturally have any homosexual or pedophilic attractions, you probably would want to remain celibate. The priesthood would seem like a good option for someone who (a) truly believes the teachings of the church (b) wants to remain celibate for fear of eternal suffering.

This doesn’t even touch the strong correlation of those who are abused becoming abusers. What better profession than the one your abuser had and was protected in?
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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #80 on: August 21, 2018, 12:16:35 PM »
Seems reasonable that the catholic doctrine itself is to blame for attracting deviants to the priesthood.  Forbid sexual activity not meant for procreation with a spouse under threat of eternal damnation, create a celibate position of religious authority, and any deviant true believer might see the priesthood as their best path to salvation.
I think the priesthood naturally attracts some deviants, just like a number of other professions attract deviants.

I really don't follow your logical progression of how (1) condemning sexual promiscuity (2) leads to sexual deviants joining the priesthood.
(1) it is not merely condemning sexual promiscuity. It is condemning any non-spousal sex, any birth control, any sodomy, etc. (2) if you really believe all of that crap, like actually think you are damned to eternal hell for it, and you naturally have any homosexual or pedophilic attractions, you probably would want to remain celibate. The priesthood would seem like a good option for someone who (a) truly believes the teachings of the church (b) wants to remain celibate for fear of eternal suffering.

Err, i agree with everything you said.  I still don't follow.  Deviants who have the self-awareness to know what they're doing is wrong are just as capable as remaining celibate as lay people as they are as clergy.  That's a clunky sentence.

If I'm a self-conscious sexual deviant and I know I shouldn't be abusing minors (or acting-out sexually in other ways), I don't see why being a priest (with bad compulsions) is a more attractive option than just living like an otherwise regular guy (with bad compulsions). 

I think the more likely explanation is the (understandable) perception that the priesthood is a pretty good profession for predators based on the access to minors, inherent authority/trust between priests and parishes, and institutional protection priests have been afforded.


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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #81 on: August 21, 2018, 12:17:12 PM »
Is "grift" "grifter" the libtard word of the month?
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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #82 on: August 21, 2018, 12:24:08 PM »
Aren't the libtards pushing to normalize pedophilia anyways??? The Catholics just need to hang on for a few years until its officially homophobic to condemn pedophilia.
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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #83 on: August 21, 2018, 12:36:15 PM »
No one ever says that yet that's exactly what they have done.  It's going to happen again in 8-10 years in another state.  Probably NY or VA.  Maybe NJ
I agree that Church has done an inadequate job of addressing this, and I hope they do a better job in the future, and believe they can.   Hopefully punishments laid out by the justice system can help punish, disincentivize and prevent the bad behavior.

So sit back and let the courts imprison these guys (now that the church’s Elaborate cover up and diversion plan has failed to completely protect serial predators).  I am unconvinced that the criminal justice system can change this pattern bevause the entire pattern is designed to protect the guilty from it.

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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2018, 12:40:11 PM »
He's saying most of the victims are post-pubescent boys so it's a gay problem and not a pedophile problem per se.  I've never understood it.  If it was a gay problem, these guys could go a few towns over and hit up grindr. 

That said, a separate issue is that there's apparently a fair amount of gay sex that occurs in seminaries.  However, I see that as more of a Church issue than one requiring the attention of secular society.

What is this insistence on refusing to include the word "gay" or "homosexual" with the word "pedophile" when describing a man sexually abuses a boy?
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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2018, 12:52:36 PM »
He's saying most of the victims are post-pubescent boys so it's a gay problem and not a pedophile problem per se.  I've never understood it.  If it was a gay problem, these guys could go a few towns over and hit up grindr. 

That said, a separate issue is that there's apparently a fair amount of gay sex that occurs in seminaries.  However, I see that as more of a Church issue than one requiring the attention of secular society.

What is this insistence on refusing to include the word "gay" or "homosexual" with the word "pedophile" when describing a man sexually abuses a boy?
What insistence?  I don't have any apprehension about identifying "heterosexual pedophilia" and "homosexual pedophilia" as such, although i don't find the the distinction particularly important.  I think it's clear that the victims' status as minors is a more relevant trait than their sex.


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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2018, 12:54:03 PM »
He's saying most of the victims are post-pubescent boys so it's a gay problem and not a pedophile problem per se.  I've never understood it.  If it was a gay problem, these guys could go a few towns over and hit up grindr. 

That said, a separate issue is that there's apparently a fair amount of gay sex that occurs in seminaries.  However, I see that as more of a Church issue than one requiring the attention of secular society.

Um - they’re don’t that, too. And again, pedophilia by definition involves pre-pubescent victims, so your statement above is an inherent contradiction.
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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #87 on: August 21, 2018, 01:01:38 PM »
He's saying most of the victims are post-pubescent boys so it's a gay problem and not a pedophile problem per se.  I've never understood it.  If it was a gay problem, these guys could go a few towns over and hit up grindr. 

That said, a separate issue is that there's apparently a fair amount of gay sex that occurs in seminaries.  However, I see that as more of a Church issue than one requiring the attention of secular society.

Um - they’re don’t that, too. And again, pedophilia by definition involves pre-pubescent victims, so your statement above is an inherent contradiction.
I know they're doing that.  But priests hitting up a gay club or having consensual sex in the seminary isn't harming children.

And the semantics re. "pedophilia" isn't helpful or honest.  When the victims are 12-14, it's clearly an infatuation with something other than "adults," regardless of whether not it fits the clinical definition of "pedophilia."


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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2018, 01:04:41 PM »
He's saying most of the victims are post-pubescent boys so it's a gay problem and not a pedophile problem per se.  I've never understood it.  If it was a gay problem, these guys could go a few towns over and hit up grindr. 

That said, a separate issue is that there's apparently a fair amount of gay sex that occurs in seminaries.  However, I see that as more of a Church issue than one requiring the attention of secular society.

Um - they’re don’t that, too. And again, pedophilia by definition involves pre-pubescent victims, so your statement above is an inherent contradiction.
I know they're doing that.  But priests hitting up a gay club or having consensual sex in the seminary isn't harming children.

And the semantics re. "pedophilia" isn't helpful or honest.  When the victims are 12-14, it's clearly an infatuation with something other than "adults," regardless of whether not it fits the clinical definition of "pedophilia."

That doesn’t seem like semantics to me. Semantics would be refusing to acknowledge that sexual activity between two people of the same sex is by definition homosexual.
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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2018, 01:06:58 PM »
So in a devil's three way the men are both homosexuals and heterosexuals?  #schrodinger's3way

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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #90 on: August 21, 2018, 01:08:49 PM »
 As long as the distraction is successful...

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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #91 on: August 21, 2018, 01:09:48 PM »
It's very important for conservatives to link homosexuals and child molesters.

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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #92 on: August 21, 2018, 01:10:12 PM »
It's very important for conservatives to link homosexuals and child molesters.

Ding ding ding
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #93 on: August 21, 2018, 01:15:29 PM »
It's very important for conservatives to link homosexuals and child molesters.

It’s also a useful diversion here

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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #94 on: August 21, 2018, 01:15:41 PM »
lol wut?

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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #95 on: August 21, 2018, 01:22:06 PM »
He's saying most of the victims are post-pubescent boys so it's a gay problem and not a pedophile problem per se.  I've never understood it.  If it was a gay problem, these guys could go a few towns over and hit up grindr. 

That said, a separate issue is that there's apparently a fair amount of gay sex that occurs in seminaries.  However, I see that as more of a Church issue than one requiring the attention of secular society.

Um - they’re don’t that, too. And again, pedophilia by definition involves pre-pubescent victims, so your statement above is an inherent contradiction.
I know they're doing that.  But priests hitting up a gay club or having consensual sex in the seminary isn't harming children.

And the semantics re. "pedophilia" isn't helpful or honest.  When the victims are 12-14, it's clearly an infatuation with something other than "adults," regardless of whether not it fits the clinical definition of "pedophilia."
Semantics would be refusing to acknowledge that sexual activity between two people of the same sex is by definition homosexual.
Show me where I said otherwise.

And my point is that if you take issue with me labeling them "pedophiles," i'm happy to concede that and refer to them by the more palatable term "child molesters" or "sexual abusers of minors," or any other term that notes that taboo nature of the engagement.  The point is that these people are engaging in sexual crimes against minors.

It's crazy to me that you could see an adult male inappropriately touching a minor male and think the issue is as superficial as the adult being gay, rather than some deeper proclivity that attracts him to 14 year olds. 

If a male teacher inappropriately touches his 13 year old female student, nobody thinks "these damn hetero teachers..."  They think "hm...people who are sexually attracted to junior high students shouldn't be junior high teachers."


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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #96 on: August 21, 2018, 01:26:18 PM »
i don't want to carefully read this thread and i know some of you have basically said the same, but i'd like to make it more explicit - the reason there are so many priests are pedophiles is because rational pedophiles have surveyed the available professions and come to the conclusion that being a priest offers them the best opportunity to both encounter victims and escape punishment.

i don't believe there is any connection to religion other than that.  if, in the future, the catholic church makes it harder either access victims or escape punishment, pedophiles in the future will flock into other professions (pediatrics, wrestling coach, dunno).
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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #97 on: August 21, 2018, 01:36:51 PM »
He's saying most of the victims are post-pubescent boys so it's a gay problem and not a pedophile problem per se.  I've never understood it.  If it was a gay problem, these guys could go a few towns over and hit up grindr. 

That said, a separate issue is that there's apparently a fair amount of gay sex that occurs in seminaries.  However, I see that as more of a Church issue than one requiring the attention of secular society.

Um - they’re don’t that, too. And again, pedophilia by definition involves pre-pubescent victims, so your statement above is an inherent contradiction.
I know they're doing that.  But priests hitting up a gay club or having consensual sex in the seminary isn't harming children.

And the semantics re. "pedophilia" isn't helpful or honest.  When the victims are 12-14, it's clearly an infatuation with something other than "adults," regardless of whether not it fits the clinical definition of "pedophilia."
Semantics would be refusing to acknowledge that sexual activity between two people of the same sex is by definition homosexual.
Show me where I said otherwise.

And my point is that if you take issue with me labeling them "pedophiles," i'm happy to concede that and refer to them by the more palatable term "child molesters" or "sexual abusers of minors," or any other term that notes that taboo nature of the engagement.  The point is that these people are engaging in sexual crimes against minors.

It's crazy to me that you could see an adult male inappropriately touching a minor male and think the issue is as superficial as the adult being gay, rather than some deeper proclivity that attracts him to 14 year olds. 

If a male teacher inappropriately touches his 13 year old female student, nobody thinks "these damn hetero teachers..."  They think "hm...people who are sexually attracted to junior high students shouldn't be junior high teachers."

Ok, it sounds like you've misunderstood my position. I've never said that gay men are more likely to be sexual abusers at large. But when you look at the pattern of sexual abuse in the Church, you cannot ignore the fact that most of the abuse is homosexual in nature. That is a fact. End stop.

The question then is, why? Coincidence? I don't think you believe that, and I don't either. I tend to subscribe to Andrew Sullivan's (and other notable Catholics, gays, and others) belief that gay men who are attracted to the Church as a cover for their "sin" are perhaps susceptible to a host of disorders, including abusing their power for repressed sexual gratification.

This isn't about trying to blame homosexuality, or about linking homosexuality to sexual abuse. If you are trying to solve a problem, you first need to try to identify the causes. And to ignore the strong correlation between sexual abuse and homosexuality in the Church, you are deliberately blinding yourself to all the available data in the name of political correctness.
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Offline catastrophe

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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #98 on: August 21, 2018, 01:43:28 PM »
This isn't about trying to blame homosexuality, or about linking homosexuality to sexual abuse. If you are trying to solve a problem, you first need to try to identify the causes. And to ignore the strong correlation between sexual abuse and homosexuality in the Church, you are deliberately blinding yourself to all the available data in the name of political correctness.

Let the record reflect I've asked KSUW at least two times already to explain why he thinks it is important to acknowledge this link, correlation, whatever.

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Re: The Catholics. My goodness. Deviant Priests
« Reply #99 on: August 21, 2018, 01:53:21 PM »
This isn't about trying to blame homosexuality, or about linking homosexuality to sexual abuse. If you are trying to solve a problem, you first need to try to identify the causes. And to ignore the strong correlation between sexual abuse and homosexuality in the Church, you are deliberately blinding yourself to all the available data in the name of political correctness.

Let the record reflect I've asked KSUW at least two times already to explain why he thinks it is important to acknowledge this link, correlation, whatever.
He pretty clearly answers that there: “If you are trying to solve a problem, you first need to try to identify the causes.”  I mean, if there is a link, it would be important.
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