Author Topic: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats  (Read 541946 times)

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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7125 on: April 15, 2020, 10:51:01 AM »
Why are Bernie people (which I kind of am) so insistent on some conspiracy where the DNC pulls all the strings? Were they not paying attention to the very public primary results that show that it was not the DNC itself but in fact Biden's voters who were the ones who absolutely beat that Bernie ass? I mean of course the DNC can help shape an election, but it's not the one casting votes. Absolute shitloads of primary voters are, and most of them showed that they don't want Bernie at this time. Seems like sore loser Bernie people are blaming the refs for their own team's shortcomings? Bernie people, explain to me why the DNC is the big bad boogeyman this time around instead of Bernie's inability to build a coalition that A) actually shows up to vote, and/or B) is bigger than 35% of the Democratic electorate.

Bernie was going to win with 35% of the vote until 2 people with more delegates and polling ahead of him in Super Tuesday states dropped out and endorsed him in a coordinated move. They aren't claiming that Bernie received more votes.

Online steve dave

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7126 on: April 15, 2020, 11:50:32 AM »
Sucks about all the democracy Bernie bros


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Offline SkinnyBenny

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7127 on: April 15, 2020, 12:39:18 PM »
Why are Bernie people (which I kind of am) so insistent on some conspiracy where the DNC pulls all the strings? Were they not paying attention to the very public primary results that show that it was not the DNC itself but in fact Biden's voters who were the ones who absolutely beat that Bernie ass? I mean of course the DNC can help shape an election, but it's not the one casting votes. Absolute shitloads of primary voters are, and most of them showed that they don't want Bernie at this time. Seems like sore loser Bernie people are blaming the refs for their own team's shortcomings? Bernie people, explain to me why the DNC is the big bad boogeyman this time around instead of Bernie's inability to build a coalition that A) actually shows up to vote, and/or B) is bigger than 35% of the Democratic electorate.

Bernie was going to win with 35% of the vote until 2 people with more delegates and polling ahead of him in Super Tuesday states dropped out and endorsed him in a coordinated move. They aren't claiming that Bernie received more votes.


I mean...I guess? So? Is the theory amongst Bernie people that the DNC strong armed them into doing that? I know that at least Buttigieg, if not also Klobuchar, expressly stated that they were not pressured by the big, bad, shadowy figure DNC boogeyman. And even if they were, that's the best argument Bernie people can put forth? "He would've won with 35%" (lol @ this sentence alone) "if not for other politicians who did something that they have every right to do"? (That being, dropping out to hopefully throw their supporters' votes to the candidate they think is in the best position to win.)

Is that:
A) Somehow abnormal for a presidential primary?
B) Somehow shady or against the rules?
C) Somehow the fault of the DNC?

Help me understand the "coordinated move" and how it's somehow nefarious. Because I think to most people, it just seems like Bernie's coalition is just going through the denial phase of grief after seeing a guy they've supported for years be unable to rack up more than 35% of the vote when other candidates could.
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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7128 on: April 15, 2020, 02:04:09 PM »
I don’t know how anyone can argue that Amy and Pete getting out and immediately endorsing plus Liz staying in did anything but significantly hurt Bernie. And 35% in a 6 person race is a very strong position.
I don’t think there was any “conspiracy” other than the actual thing that happened that I just described. I don’t think it was “illegal” but I don’t see how anyone can argue that it didn’t significantly impact the course of the primary.

As for the rest of it, I just think Biden sucks and even if he wins it will suck because his politics are just as bad if not worse than Hillary’s politics which sucked. So of course I am sad about Bernie losing.

Offline SkinnyBenny

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7129 on: April 15, 2020, 03:23:26 PM »
I don’t know how anyone can argue that Amy and Pete getting out and immediately endorsing plus Liz staying in did anything but significantly hurt Bernie. And 35% in a 6 person race is a very strong position.
I don’t think there was any “conspiracy” other than the actual thing that happened that I just described. I don’t think it was “illegal” but I don’t see how anyone can argue that it didn’t significantly impact the course of the primary.

As for the rest of it, I just think Biden sucks and even if he wins it will suck because his politics are just as bad if not worse than Hillary’s politics which sucked. So of course I am sad about Bernie losing.


Fair enough and I agree with most of it. You are among the more level-headed Bernie people I'm seeing write about it in the aftermath, though. I'm sure there are plenty like you, I just haven't heard or read a bunch of it yet but I'm sure I will.
"walking around mhk and crying in the rain because of love lost is the absolute purest and best thing in the world.  i hope i fall in love during the next few weeks and get my heart broken and it starts raining just to experience it one last time."   --Dlew12

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7130 on: April 15, 2020, 08:08:02 PM »
Bernie was going to win with 35% of the vote until 2 people with more delegates and polling ahead of him in Super Tuesday states dropped out and endorsed him in a coordinated move. They aren't claiming that Bernie received more votes.

super weird that it's hard to win an election with 35% of the vote.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Online steve dave

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7131 on: April 15, 2020, 08:39:01 PM »
lmao


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Online steve dave

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7132 on: April 15, 2020, 08:40:09 PM »
The vocal should be given much more importance than the minority in elections.


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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7133 on: April 15, 2020, 08:42:26 PM »
Bernie was going to win with 35% of the vote until 2 people with more delegates and polling ahead of him in Super Tuesday states dropped out and endorsed him in a coordinated move. They aren't claiming that Bernie received more votes.

super weird that it's hard to win an election with 35% of the vote.

It is pretty good in a 5-6 person race.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_United_Kingdom_general_election
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election
« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 08:45:40 PM by Kat Kid »

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7134 on: April 15, 2020, 08:45:42 PM »
what us primaries have been 5-6 candidate races past the early states?
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7135 on: April 15, 2020, 08:46:29 PM »
This one almost did.

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7136 on: April 15, 2020, 08:48:20 PM »
but then in an unprecedented move, it suddenly reverted to being just like all the other primaries ever.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7137 on: April 15, 2020, 08:51:41 PM »
but then in an unprecedented move, it suddenly reverted to being just like all the other primaries ever.

Except for the 2016 republican primary.

Online steve dave

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7138 on: April 15, 2020, 08:53:29 PM »
Where the Bernie Sanders proxy won? There’s something to be said for tradition imo.


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Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7139 on: April 15, 2020, 09:19:09 PM »
Except for the 2016 republican primary.

closest thing.  but even there it was just four candidates and rubio exited right after st, leaving three.  pretty analogous to biden, sanders, bloomberg and warren, really.

and of course dems aren't winner take all.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline cfbandyman

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7140 on: April 15, 2020, 09:51:40 PM »
There are a lot, and I mean, a lot of things to like about Bernie, but there is plenty to hate about him too. I get Bernie Bros hating this outcome, and there is a lot of be disappointed about, but Bernie, and definitely more specifically his supporters definitely to me are classic have it right in the big picture, but absolutely zero realistic path to make it happen. It's definitely clear there are major issues, pandemic aside, with the US, and this pandemic is only massively exposing them.

However, he has hardly any key allies save like AOC and Omar in the house, and maybe Liz Warren in the Senate. But both he and his supporters are so voracious in their attacks of anyone who doesn't toe w/e line they have in their heads it pretty easy to go from wanting to support the guy to being swallowed up by the twitter and facebook crazies. Hell while Warren could go to bat for him she could just as easily take how she was treated by Bernie Bros and just not do anything, hell even AOC gets blasted by some of the zealots as a sell out occasionally. It's a classic inability to truly grow his base, and even if he somehow, somehow won the democratic primary, I would have serious reservations of him winning any key state he'd need to win (Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania) either better than Biden could, or definitely vs trump.

And even if he somehow won the presidency, a giant if, and even more giant if is how the hell would he actually get anything that he wanted done. Passing the ACA was practically political suicide in 2010, it would be even more so to try and do M4A, and hence much more reluctance from democrats this time around, let alone anything to do with college, or social programs he wants done, and I can just see the headlines for 4 years as virtually nothing gets done unless he makes concessions of "Socialist President can't achieve anything" and he'd probably be slaughtered in 2024.

Biden won because he had all the key support, was seen as a less extreme version of the 3 options on the table, and as you saw in Michigan it clearly seems especially in the democratic side Bernie made hardly any gains (actually made some losses) and it really shows just how hated Hillary was. You might not like Biden, but he doesn't elicit that vitriolic response.

The only thing that gets me about Bernie Bros is how quick so many don't want to vote for Biden, I both appreciate and respect that gumption to stick to certain principals, and think Biden doesn't have all that you want, but I never can understand how you would rather vote for some 3rd party candidate who is definitely not going to win, or not vote at all, all because you might only get a few things from one candidate, vs getting absolutely nothing from the other candidate, and then bitching about it for 4 years of just how terrible it is to get nothing. Would you rather have Trump appointing RBG's vacancy? What about having him in charge of IDK, a crisis like this? Even if Biden is starting to wane a bit mentally would you rather his cabinet helping him manage this vs Mnuchin, Ivanka, Jared? Are you tired of seeing the president of the goddamn US fight like a 5 year old with reporters cause they are asking him big mean questions?

I get the policy bits, I understand "you know what's better for this country so vote for Bernie goddamn it," but how can you be so ideologically pure that anything less comes along and it's not just not good enough, but it's practically seen as abhorrent

Being President is an important job no doubt, but it doesn't mean you live with that person, or you have to defend everything that person does, but then again you get in that mode I guess. Oh well.
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Offline michigancat

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7141 on: April 15, 2020, 09:59:38 PM »
there are no reasons to hate Bernie, sorry

Offline DaBigTrain

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7142 on: April 15, 2020, 10:01:06 PM »
there are no reasons to hate Bernie, sorry
Can you tldnr the post previous you were responding to?
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"

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Offline michigancat

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7143 on: April 15, 2020, 10:10:48 PM »
there are no reasons to hate Bernie, sorry
Can you tldnr the post previous you were responding to?

lots of reasons to hate bernie, no one likes him, he's too mean, M4A is too risky, I don't understand why bernie bros wouldn't vote for biden, I don't understand why these people are so goddam ideologically pure and won't just do what I think is right, etc.

Offline DaBigTrain

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7144 on: April 15, 2020, 10:13:42 PM »
there are no reasons to hate Bernie, sorry
Can you tldnr the post previous you were responding to?

lots of reasons to hate bernie, no one likes him, he's too mean, M4A is too risky, I don't understand why bernie bros wouldn't vote for biden, I don't understand why these people are so goddam ideologically pure and won't just do what I think is right, etc.
Thanks
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Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7145 on: April 15, 2020, 10:14:57 PM »
he's a demagogue, like any populist.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7146 on: April 15, 2020, 10:18:15 PM »
sys hates and is embarrassed by the wonderful legacy of his state and his alma mater Kansas State University--a land grant institution of the highest populist order.

he can go eff himself.

Offline michigancat

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7147 on: April 15, 2020, 10:19:39 PM »
he's a demagogue, like any populist.

eh, I'd be curious how you're defining demagogue.

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7148 on: April 15, 2020, 10:26:16 PM »
I'd be curious how you're defining demagogue.

a populist.  a politician who diagnoses every ill as the fault of a scapegoat doing something to exploit,oppress or defraud the true volk.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: 2020 presidential candidate 'crats
« Reply #7149 on: April 15, 2020, 10:33:55 PM »
I'd be curious how you're defining demagogue.

a populist.  a politician who diagnoses every ill as the fault of a scapegoat doing something to exploit,oppress or defraud the true volk.

lmao you really trying to peddle class analysis as fascism.