Author Topic: Vegas shooting  (Read 32229 times)

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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #150 on: October 03, 2017, 09:25:54 AM »
I feel like it should be pretty obvious that even if it wouldn't prevent "this shooting" or the next, very little good comes from assault weapons being legal.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #151 on: October 03, 2017, 09:29:04 AM »
Exactly. I don't have the answer, either, but I'm interested to consider suggestions.

I think there has to be some start with a crack down on these types of weapons. I know we talk about "they are already banned", but that really doesn't do anything and nothing changes. I'm not sure if a dent can even be made, but my first thought is a movement to get these off the streets and destroy them, even if at this point its symbolic. Like I said, real change is years away, but doing nothing that makes a statement that we are going to try to change the mentality and availability towards guns that are only designed to cause massive amounts of death quickly is an approach we've tried for years and its clearly not working.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #152 on: October 03, 2017, 09:30:30 AM »
Also, I know that anything that takes guns away and destroys them will cause a good portion of gun owner types to go absolutely ballistic and honestly may initially cause a few more crazy reactions.

Offline mocat

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #153 on: October 03, 2017, 09:34:56 AM »
it sounds like everyone here agrees doing nothing is unacceptable. that's a good start.

Offline Gooch

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #154 on: October 03, 2017, 09:38:54 AM »
Exactly. I don't have the answer, either, but I'm interested to consider suggestions.

I think there has to be some start with a crack down on these types of weapons. I know we talk about "they are already banned", but that really doesn't do anything and nothing changes. I'm not sure if a dent can even be made, but my first thought is a movement to get these off the streets and destroy them, even if at this point its symbolic. Like I said, real change is years away, but doing nothing that makes a statement that we are going to try to change the mentality and availability towards guns that are only designed to cause massive amounts of death quickly is an approach we've tried for years and its clearly not working.
You will do nothing but really inflame the gun nuts when you do litterally "come for their guns". I suppose you could ban the future manufacture of them but you can't unring that bell and go back for what's out there. That could actually trigger a new civil war.

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #155 on: October 03, 2017, 09:43:39 AM »
Also, I know that anything that takes guns away and destroys them will cause a good portion of gun owner types to go absolutely ballistic and honestly may initially cause a few more crazy reactions.
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Offline cfbandyman

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #156 on: October 03, 2017, 10:19:12 AM »
I rough ridin' hate guns. Dad forced me to do hunters safety as a kid and bought me a shotgun for my 12th bday after I asked him not to. I get that hunting can be a bonding thing, but some people have a super weird obsession with guns.

I don't own guns and I don't hunt. Hunting seems like the absolute worst - trudging around through a field or sitting in a stand, usually in cold weather, waiting to kill an animal. But I've gone target shooting before and it is a LOT of fun.

I am 100% in that camp. I can't fathom going hunting and enjoying it. To each their own but just a gross way to spend a weekend. Much rather be warm on a couch watching football. I did some shooting for boy scouts. Been a gun range once since. I can get the thrill of that, still not my thing but I generally have no problem with those who want to hunt or go to a gun range.

As to wacky's point about hating guns, I get that too. People who are super into it are IMO as big of dorks and weirdos as someone who has like 40 cats or is a hoarder, etc. The different being most of those people who have 40 cats and hoard crap typically aren't holding onto excessively lethal amounts of things (terrible cat allergies and being clawed aside). Yet excessive gun people get lauded for being "patriots" and their lifestyle is venerated. Veneration should be towards sensible gun ownership and safety, not trying to own a crap ton of weapons cause "I might need them to overthrow the gubment/blow away that goddamn intruder who comes into my house"
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Offline SkinnyBenny

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #157 on: October 03, 2017, 10:35:32 AM »
No offense, but these are platitudes and bromides. If you have a specific gun control mental health measure to suggest, or want to discuss somebody else's specific proposal, let's do that. Anybody can say "let's all work together for sensible gun control" "let's all work together for sensible ways to address mental health." It's the specific policy that actually requires some thought even one iota of intent to actually address mental health. And it is particularly hard to make such a proposal in the wake of this tragedy before we have any idea what weapons he used or how he got them because conservatives don't actually give a crap about addressing mental health, they just want a way to deflect from the fact that they're okay with mass shootings if they can still hold big guns that make them feel like their dicks are less small.

fyp

i agree with you that mental health is often the underlying problem, and will continue being the underlying problem no matter what new gun laws are passed. But I think it's unfair to say that conservatives don't really care about mental health. What do you want to do about it? Dramatically increase the number of involuntary commitments? Sounds like you've got the answer to these problems, so by all means share what we should do if only for those jerkface republicans.

I am far from having any solutions on addressing mental health, as I am neither a policy maker nor a mental health professional. I am, however perceptive enough to see that this same discussion plays out after every single one of these things: despondent cries of anguish arise from people who are desperate to get killing machines out of our country because they're not okay with 20 six year-olds being executed in their classrooms, or 49 people being executed in a club, or 59 people being executed at a concert. They suggest some sort of solution or another, or maybe just throw out a despondent statement about how gun culture in America is completely out of control.

Then, inevitably, that is met with this retort from the "NOPE SORRY" gun nut, who is unwilling to budge in any way whatsoever and whose real goal is to end the conversation before it can actually begin. They throw their hands up and say "NOPE, it would never work. And 2nd amendment! The only thing we can do is address mental health."  And then, as always, they offer zero solutions whatsoever to begin addressing mental health. It's funny, it's almost like they don't really mean it and are really just trying to absolve themselves of any responsibility and need to give ground in a compromise on guns.

Here's the other thing I find funny about the NOPE SORRY, GOTTA BE MENTAL HEALTH INSTEAD gun nuts I've talked to about this: they talk as if it can only be one solution or another, as if it would be completely impossible to attempt two things at the same time. Yes, believe it or not, you could actually address mental health issues in our country AND at the same time make mass murder machines illegal. This "one or the other" thing is either a function of their sad one-track minds, or is completely disingenuous and indicative their complete unwillingness to give any ground whatsoever in a gun debate.

Like I said, I don't know exactly what the right step forward is to better address mental health issues that plague America, but I know gutting health care is probably a terrible way for conservatives to make it seem like they're being genuine when they say they care about addressing it. And, as always, The Onion hits the nail on the head and pwns idiots and hypocrites:
http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/shooting-isnt-about-gun-control-we-refuse-pass-its-57095
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Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #158 on: October 03, 2017, 10:53:41 AM »
No offense, but these are platitudes and bromides. If you have a specific gun control mental health measure to suggest, or want to discuss somebody else's specific proposal, let's do that. Anybody can say "let's all work together for sensible gun control" "let's all work together for sensible ways to address mental health." It's the specific policy that actually requires some thought even one iota of intent to actually address mental health. And it is particularly hard to make such a proposal in the wake of this tragedy before we have any idea what weapons he used or how he got them because conservatives don't actually give a crap about addressing mental health, they just want a way to deflect from the fact that they're okay with mass shootings if they can still hold big guns that make them feel like their dicks are less small.

fyp

i agree with you that mental health is often the underlying problem, and will continue being the underlying problem no matter what new gun laws are passed. But I think it's unfair to say that conservatives don't really care about mental health. What do you want to do about it? Dramatically increase the number of involuntary commitments? Sounds like you've got the answer to these problems, so by all means share what we should do if only for those jerkface republicans.

I am far from having any solutions on addressing mental health, as I am neither a policy maker nor a mental health professional. I am, however perceptive enough to see that this same discussion plays out after every single one of these things: despondent cries of anguish arise from people who are desperate to get killing machines out of our country because they're not okay with 20 six year-olds being executed in their classrooms, or 49 people being executed in a club, or 59 people being executed at a concert. They suggest some sort of solution or another, or maybe just throw out a despondent statement about how gun culture in America is completely out of control.

Then, inevitably, that is met with this retort from the "NOPE SORRY" gun nut, who is unwilling to budge in any way whatsoever and whose real goal is to end the conversation before it can actually begin. They throw their hands up and say "NOPE, it would never work. And 2nd amendment! The only thing we can do is address mental health."  And then, as always, they offer zero solutions whatsoever to begin addressing mental health. It's funny, it's almost like they don't really mean it and are really just trying to absolve themselves of any responsibility and need to give ground in a compromise on guns.

Here's the other thing I find funny about the NOPE SORRY, GOTTA BE MENTAL HEALTH INSTEAD gun nuts I've talked to about this: they talk as if it can only be one solution or another, as if it would be completely impossible to attempt two things at the same time. Yes, believe it or not, you could actually address mental health issues in our country AND at the same time make mass murder machines illegal. This "one or the other" thing is either a function of their sad one-track minds, or is completely disingenuous and indicative their complete unwillingness to give any ground whatsoever in a gun debate.

Like I said, I don't know exactly what the right step forward is to better address mental health issues that plague America, but I know gutting health care is probably a terrible way for conservatives to make it seem like they're being genuine when they say they care about addressing it. And, as always, The Onion hits the nail on the head and pwns idiots and hypocrites:
http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/shooting-isnt-about-gun-control-we-refuse-pass-its-57095

TL/DNR version: "I don't have any idea what to do about mental health, or guns, but we gotta do something."
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #159 on: October 03, 2017, 11:48:06 AM »


Good video IMO. Also, a podcast called Science VS did a good look at gun control.

So many gun nuts act like you cannot do anything until you put forward a proposal everyone agrees on (which they know will never happen). I don't think you can make any progress until people agree there is a problem with guns in this country.

Offline SkinnyBenny

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #160 on: October 03, 2017, 11:59:18 AM »
Will be interesting to see what this Republican congress puts up to answer those questions KSUW.

Nice dodge.

By suggesting there should be an expectation that the party currently in control of congress and the executive branch should be responsible for addressing serious issues that everyone agrees exist?

477 Days. 521 Mass Shootings. Zero Actions From Congress.
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Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #161 on: October 03, 2017, 12:06:23 PM »
Regulate bullets.
Most serious gun people make their own.

Regulate gunpowder

Offline Trim

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #162 on: October 03, 2017, 12:34:26 PM »
Guessing we're not gonna get a consensus here on this divisive issue from a bunch of people who ostensibly love Fatty & KSU and who can't even come together to attend and support FattyFest.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #163 on: October 03, 2017, 12:36:04 PM »
the mentally ill have as much a constitutional right to own firearms as the mentally well.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #164 on: October 03, 2017, 12:42:28 PM »
Which is none unless you're a militia member.

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #165 on: October 03, 2017, 12:44:21 PM »
You guys see the conspiracy out there. Shots look like they're coming from the 12th floor instead.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #166 on: October 03, 2017, 12:45:34 PM »


Good video IMO. Also, a podcast called Science VS did a good look at gun control.

So many gun nuts act like you cannot do anything until you put forward a proposal everyone agrees on (which they know will never happen). I don't think you can make any progress until people agree there is a problem with guns in this country.

yeah that was pretty good. I think requiring a license/safety training/storage laws would be a great first step.

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #167 on: October 03, 2017, 01:10:22 PM »
You guys see the conspiracy out there. Shots look like they're coming from the 12th floor instead.
This

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #168 on: October 03, 2017, 01:15:05 PM »
You guys see the conspiracy out there. Shots look like they're coming from the 12th floor instead.

I had some buds on FB who ran this down. Apparently there are more videos before the shooting showing the same strobes in the windows.

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #169 on: October 03, 2017, 01:55:26 PM »
So far (sorry if I missed one) it has been suggested...

1. Make all semi-automatic rifles illegal. This is the only mass shooting I'm aware of where that might have made a significant difference. Most mass shooting situations were or could have been carried out just as effectively with semi-automatic pistols. seems like a pretty dramatic curtailment of gun rights with relatively little impact. It would also be political impossible to ban and confiscate all existing semi-automatic rifles (the AR-15 is I think the most popular rifle in the US), and I'm not sure banning future production of them would really make a dent for decades.

2. Stricter licensure / safety training / gun storage laws. Not sure how this would make one bit of difference. In the vast majority of mass shootings, the killer either still would have passed the enhanced check, or skirted existing background check laws by getting the guns from a relative, etc. Without more details, this seems like another curtailment of gun rights with relatively little benefit.

How about banning high capacity magazines? Maaaybe. Don't we already have that law up to a point? What's a fair amount for home defense and hunting? Should you have to individually chamber each round (that seems unreasonable). 5 rounds max? Is 20 clips of 5 rounds a piece really going prevent more carnage than 10 clips of 10 rounds each?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #170 on: October 03, 2017, 02:10:13 PM »
So far (sorry if I missed one) it has been suggested...

1. Make all semi-automatic rifles illegal. This is the only mass shooting I'm aware of where that might have made a significant difference. Most mass shooting situations were or could have been carried out just as effectively with semi-automatic pistols. seems like a pretty dramatic curtailment of gun rights with relatively little impact. It would also be political impossible to ban and confiscate all existing semi-automatic rifles (the AR-15 is I think the most popular rifle in the US), and I'm not sure banning future production of them would really make a dent for decades.

2. Stricter licensure / safety training / gun storage laws. Not sure how this would make one bit of difference. In the vast majority of mass shootings, the killer either still would have passed the enhanced check, or skirted existing background check laws by getting the guns from a relative, etc. Without more details, this seems like another curtailment of gun rights with relatively little benefit.

How about banning high capacity magazines? Maaaybe. Don't we already have that law up to a point? What's a fair amount for home defense and hunting? Should you have to individually chamber each round (that seems unreasonable). 5 rounds max? Is 20 clips of 5 rounds a piece really going prevent more carnage than 10 clips of 10 rounds each?
What do you suggest?

Offline catastrophe

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Vegas shooting
« Reply #171 on: October 03, 2017, 02:12:21 PM »
Banning the manufacture and ownership of rifles designed purely to kill people is not a dramatic curtailment of gun rights.

Offline SkinnyBenny

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #172 on: October 03, 2017, 02:22:53 PM »
Hey weird, it looks almost like K-S-U-Wildcats isn't actually interested in giving any ground or being an adult and compromising. In fact, it almost seems like the subtext of his post is him throwing his hands up and saying "NOPE none of this would ever work, so we better not even try." Weird. I never could've guesssed that was coming.
"walking around mhk and crying in the rain because of love lost is the absolute purest and best thing in the world.  i hope i fall in love during the next few weeks and get my heart broken and it starts raining just to experience it one last time."   --Dlew12

Offline stunted

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #173 on: October 03, 2017, 02:25:08 PM »
what are his options if he didn't have access to automatic rifles? could have used a bomb to kill a lot of people. but maybe using a gun is more enjoyable as morbid as that sounds, which could have played a part. shrug.

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Vegas shooting
« Reply #174 on: October 03, 2017, 02:35:46 PM »
I don't think I need a solution to question other proposals. As I've already said, I don't have a good solution yet.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.