Author Topic: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.  (Read 2946 times)

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Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« on: December 28, 2016, 02:02:09 PM »
So in light of the recent UN Security Council resolution condemning Israeli settlements as illegal, which the US allowed to pass by abstaining from the vote, it got me thinking about the whole conflict. I realized I know almost nothing about it, so I started reading. Pretty much everything I've found is written from a clearly pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian POV, so it's tough to separate fact from opinion.

Here's what I've got so far - please correct me and/or fill in the blanks.

1. The area is the ancestral homeland for the Jews, going back thousands of years. It's also the ancestral homeland for at least some of the Arab Palestinians. (I'm a little hazy on all the race/ethnicity/religion distinctions).
2. The region, including Israel, disputed lands, and pieces of surrounding countries have been the subject of one conquest after another for thousands of years.
3. After the Ottoman Empire was defeated in WWI, the League of Nations gave Great Britain a Mandate to govern the Palestine territory.
4. This continued until 1947, when the newly formed UN passed Resolution 181, which partitioned Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state. Some Jews relocated to the Jewish state, but a lot had already been living there continuously for thousands of years.
5. the Jews accepted the plan - the Arabs didn't. The Jewish state declared their independence when the British Mandate expired in 1947, and the surrounding Arab countries immediately invaded. The Jews kicked their collective asses - to the point that many Arabs refer to this war as "the Catastrophe."
6. So as a result of that war, the Jews expanded the territory they held, and this was sort of formalized by "Armistice lines" - in armistice agreements between Israel and surrounding countries, though nobody except I think Lebanon agreed that these armistice lines constituted final international borders.
7. So at this point, the Jews are controlling the area originally partitioned for them by the UN, plus some additional land that had been offered to the Arab state, and Jordan is controlling all the West Bank (apparently it was referred to as "Transjordan" at the time, which is kinda :lol:)
8. Next, we've got "The Six Day War" in 1967. I guess enough time had passed since The Catastrophe for the Arab nations to forget why they called it that. They gave it another try, and Israel kicked their asses again. This time the Jews took Gaza, Sinai Peninsula, Golan Heights, and West Bank and East Jerusalem. But the Jews gave most of that back in exchange for peace treaties over the next 10 years or so. Big exceptions were Gaza, which they withdrew from more recently (but still blockading it and raiding it because of rocket attacks), and the West Bank and Jerusalem, which they continue to occupy to this day. But now at least there are definite international borders between Israel and Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Egypt. The only question marks are Gaza Strip and West Bank.

Everything I said accurate so far?

Ok, now here I start getting a little hazy. At some point "Transjordan" decides to just be "Jordan" (still a gender neutral name) and just lets Yasser Arrafat and the Palestinian Liberation Organization be in charge of the West Bank. (Seems like this was not a good decision, but I don't know, maybe it was from Jordan's POV). These people aren't Transjordanian anymore - in fact, Jordan revoked their citizenship, so now they're stuck in the West Bank and they're just referred to as Palestinians.

Gaza strip is also this little pocket that Egypt doesn't want anything to do with, and they're separated from the West Bank by Israel, but the Arabs in both spots are referred to as Palestinians, which kind of seems like a more polite description for "Arabs that Israel hasn't conquered yet and no other Arab country wants to annex so they're just kinda stuck." Fair?

Meanwhile, the Palestinians can't really decide who their government should be. Gaza is controlled by a military junta called Hamas. The West Bank is sort of governed by a part called Fatah, but seems like Hamas has some influence there, too.

There have been a number of attempts at creating a "Two State Solution" and peace between Israel and a country called "Palestine," but they can't come to an agreement on borders. Apparently Israel would be ok with giving up some of it's occupied territory, but it cannot agree to the withdrawing to the "1967 borders" because they say they are hard to defend militarily. On the Palestinian side, they don't seem interested in Israel existing, period.

In the meantime, Israel continues to "settle" areas of the West Bank, mostly spots that they are already occupying militarily but some other areas that they don't. Israeli has actually deemed some of these settlements illegal and torn some of them down, but Jews continue settling outside the occupied areas, saying it is their ancestral right to the land.

Do I have this right?


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« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 02:05:23 PM by K-S-U-Wildcats! »
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Offline CNS

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2016, 02:07:38 PM »
Listen to the Martyr Made podcast.  It picks up around WW1 and does a really good job of explaining a lot.  I am only about 10 hrs in and so far my take is that the British are responsible for a lot of the current issue due to a crap show management of the sitch. 

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2016, 02:28:51 PM »
Tldnr
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline bubbles4ksu

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2016, 03:12:42 PM »
You should listen to the podcast.

Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2016, 03:14:18 PM »
One of the disputed 1967 boundary areas is Golan Heights, and Israel is never going to give that piece of land back to anyone without a military conflict.

And yes, I can also recommend Martyr Made. V good.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2016, 04:48:06 PM »
I haven't listened to the martyr made podcast, but I have been told it is pretty fair.

I think you are probably better off finding a resource and just looking at some of the primary sources (Balfour Declaration, British Mandate, Resolution 181(Partition Plan), Resolution 194, Resolution 242, Resolution 446, Resolution 681 and Oslo)

Maps are tricky because they are often not accurate, so make sure the sources are legit on that too.

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000638

Offline puniraptor

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2016, 06:01:39 PM »
ok that's background (seems right?)

now lets find solutions!

idea 1: offer all Palestinians full blown Israeli citizenship

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2016, 06:07:11 PM »
ok that's background (seems right?)

now lets find solutions!

idea 1: offer all Palestinians full blown Israeli citizenship


would increase taxable citizens by nearly 50% I think this could work.
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Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2016, 06:20:07 PM »
ok that's background (seems right?)

now lets find solutions!

idea 1: offer all Palestinians full blown Israeli citizenship

What would the ratio of Jews to Arabs be in this case? 1 to 1, 2 to 1?

Offline puniraptor

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2016, 06:27:24 PM »
ok that's background (seems right?)

now lets find solutions!

idea 1: offer all Palestinians full blown Israeli citizenship

What would the ratio of Jews to Arabs be in this case? 1 to 1, 2 to 1?

pop in millions:

Israel         8.6

G-strip       1.85

West Bank 2.86

Online star seed 7

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2016, 06:47:24 PM »
Convince both sides that religion is silly
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline CNS

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2016, 06:48:21 PM »
Best case.

Offline Cire

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2016, 06:59:53 PM »
Jews started moving back with Britain's blessing after the mandate.  Pissed Arabs off and the un resolution was icing on the cake.




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Offline Tobias

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2016, 07:00:17 PM »
we send ksuw and some friends of his choosing to breed them out

Offline Cire

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2016, 07:03:53 PM »
The settlements are illegal as most saw the West bank as an occupied territory and Israel started building neighborhoods and walls, military checkpoints etc.


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Offline steve dave

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Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2016, 07:06:54 PM »
Nice work religion, you dumbass

Offline chum1

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2016, 07:14:19 PM »
Do nothing. These things have a way of working themselves out.

Offline steve dave

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2016, 07:16:29 PM »
Do nothing. These things have a way of working themselves out.

If anything this has been prolonged by everyone doing something

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2016, 07:22:58 PM »
Meade's Christmas parade also got cancelled for weather for all you haters needing a W.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2016, 08:57:35 PM »
ok that's background (seems right?)

now lets find solutions!

idea 1: offer all Palestinians full blown Israeli citizenship

What would the ratio of Jews to Arabs be in this case? 1 to 1, 2 to 1?

pop in millions:

Israel         8.6

G-strip       1.85

West Bank 2.86

I was curious about the demographics of jewish vs arab. I did find this:

Quote
The number of Arabs and Jews in Israel and the occupied areas will be equal by 2016, but the number of Arabs will exceed that of Jews by 2020, a report by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics said Monday.
The estimated number of Palestinians in the world at the end of 2012 is 11.6 million, of whom 4.4 million are in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem and 1.4 million live inside Israel.
The PCBS said the number of Arabs in Israel and the occupied territories is estimated at 5.8 million at the end of 2012, compared to a predicted 6 million Jews.
It forecast that the number of Arabs and Jews will total around 6.5 million each by the end of 2016.
However, with an Arab fertility rate at 3.3 births inside Israel, and 4.4 million in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, compared to three births among Jews, the number of Arabs will exceed that of Jews by 2020, to reach 7.2 million Arabs compared to 6.9 million Jews.
The PCBS said 2.7 million Palestinians live in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and 1.7 million live in the Gaza Strip.
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, Israel's population at the end of 2012 stands at nearly 8 million, of whom 5.9 million are Jews and 1.4 million are Arabs.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians-to-outnumber-jewish-population-by-2020-says-pa-report-1.491122

Offline Tobias

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2016, 08:59:46 PM »
it's not really that many ppl living in one area, just pick one to wipe out

Offline puniraptor

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2016, 09:54:57 PM »
ok that's background (seems right?)

now lets find solutions!

idea 1: offer all Palestinians full blown Israeli citizenship

What would the ratio of Jews to Arabs be in this case? 1 to 1, 2 to 1?

pop in millions:

Israel         8.6

G-strip       1.85

West Bank 2.86

I was curious about the demographics of jewish vs arab. I did find this:

Quote
The number of Arabs and Jews in Israel and the occupied areas will be equal by 2016, but the number of Arabs will exceed that of Jews by 2020, a report by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics said Monday.
The estimated number of Palestinians in the world at the end of 2012 is 11.6 million, of whom 4.4 million are in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem and 1.4 million live inside Israel.
The PCBS said the number of Arabs in Israel and the occupied territories is estimated at 5.8 million at the end of 2012, compared to a predicted 6 million Jews.
It forecast that the number of Arabs and Jews will total around 6.5 million each by the end of 2016.
However, with an Arab fertility rate at 3.3 births inside Israel, and 4.4 million in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, compared to three births among Jews, the number of Arabs will exceed that of Jews by 2020, to reach 7.2 million Arabs compared to 6.9 million Jews.
The PCBS said 2.7 million Palestinians live in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and 1.7 million live in the Gaza Strip.
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, Israel's population at the end of 2012 stands at nearly 8 million, of whom 5.9 million are Jews and 1.4 million are Arabs.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians-to-outnumber-jewish-population-by-2020-says-pa-report-1.491122

oh ok. I assumed the areas were ethnically homogeneous because ksu-w didn't tell me any better in his background info.

Offline renocat

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2016, 09:04:55 AM »
Solution. Get rid.Obama.and.Kerry, and try to repair things.  US could.have vetoed UN resolution. For over Palestinians.have been using war and terrorism to attack Israel.  This action by Kerry rewards them for their efforts.  Arrogant Kerry and.Obama think.they are so Intelligent.  So ignoramuses screw up foreign policy again.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2016, 01:43:48 PM »
Convince both sides that religion is silly

I know you have the intellectual depth of a beer bottle cap on here, but Israel overall is fairly secular albiet some hardline Israel haters try to say you can't considerate secular as long as it's called a "Jewish State" and they also are really mad that Jews don't hang women for not shopping with their husband in toe and don't toss gay people bound and gagged off of rooftops.   

But then again, this administration is doing all it can to destroy relatively secular regimes in the Middle East. 

Now this administration (and people like Paul Ryan) are running around saying it's Russia sowing the seeds of unrest across the world.   But hey, if they take out ISIS, they'll need a new bogeyman. 


Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Middle East Peace - let's figure this out.
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2016, 01:59:13 PM »
Convince both sides that religion is silly

I know you have the intellectual depth of a beer bottle cap on here, but Israel overall is fairly secular albiet some hardline Israel haters try to say you can't considerate secular as long as it's called a "Jewish State" and they also are really mad that Jews don't hang women for not shopping with their husband in toe and don't toss gay people bound and gagged off of rooftops.   

But then again, this administration is doing all it can to destroy relatively secular regimes in the Middle East. 

Now this administration (and people like Paul Ryan) are running around saying it's Russia sowing the seeds of unrest across the world.   But hey, if they take out ISIS, they'll need a new bogeyman.

You are definitely right that most of the people that claim Israel isn't completely secular are really mad that Israel doesn't follow wahabbi style shariah law.