Minimizing mistakes over making plays

[nicname]

I've spent the better part of this afternoon watching the 1997 Fiesta Bowl and one thing more than any stuck out to me.

K-State made a ton of big plays in the game due to improvisation on offense and intense aggression on defense. They also made a noticeable number of mistakes both big and small: penalties, big turnovers, missed tackles because of incorrect pursuit.

This is nothing new of course. We all know the 1998 Cats were the most penalized team in college football that year.

I started thinking when watching this beatdown of the McNabb-led Orangemen, that perhaps those two years -- especially the way the 1998 CCG ended -- were the early embers of Snyder's progressively risk-averse style of coaching, recruiting and overall program managing.

Not one time did the PBP or color guy talk about Kansas State's discipline or blue-collar type work ethic. Yet they continuously noted the speed, strength and playmaking ability of players across the roster.

I would say the trend has ended up hurting the program's success over the last 18 or so years than it has helped.

I dunno.

[CHONGS]

When yoy have talent you can take risks.  When you don't, you are forced to be conservative. 

[nicname]

When yoy have talent you can take risks.  When you don't, you are forced to be conservative.

Yes, but not having talent can be attributed to the trend toward risk aversion I mentioned above.

[kslim]

Things have changed in the juco world. That has made a massive difference. Credit old bill there

[michigancat]

When yoy have talent you can take risks.  When you don't, you are forced to be conservative. 

I don't think improvisation on offense or intense aggression on defense are necessarily risky

[CHONGS]

When yoy have talent you can take risks.  When you don't, you are forced to be conservative. 

I don't think improvisation on offense or intense aggression on defense are necessarily risky

Sure, but Bill does. 

[star seed 7]

When yoy have talent you can take risks.  When you don't, you are forced to be conservative. 

I don't think improvisation on offense or intense aggression on defense are necessarily risky

i think they are

[kso_FAN]

Things have changed in the juco world. That has made a massive difference. Credit old bill there

This. Bill was able to tap a talent source that simply isn't available anymore.

[michigancat]

When yoy have talent you can take risks.  When you don't, you are forced to be conservative. 

I don't think improvisation on offense or intense aggression on defense are necessarily risky

i think they are

The defense I can see (depends on how it's done), the offense I completely disagree with you

[star seed 7]

ok

[MakeItRain]

When yoy have talent you can take risks.  When you don't, you are forced to be conservative. 

I don't think improvisation on offense or intense aggression on defense are necessarily risky

i think they are

The defense I can see (depends on how it's done), the offense I completely disagree with you

I'm pretty sure we're giving up a historic amount of big plays

[MakeItRain]

Things have changed in the juco world. That has made a massive difference. Credit old bill there

This. Bill was able to tap a talent source that simply isn't available anymore.

What do you mean "isn't available anymore?" There is just as many, if not more D1 talents in the Jayhawk Conference as there were in the 90s. The issue is that it takes effort that the staff does not put in. It's what intrigues me the most about a new staff, new found energy in recruiting. It is also a source of frustration for me when idiots act as if Manhattan is Anchorage, with no talent around at all. We don't have to go crazy getting ten community college kids per class or anything but there are difference makers out there.

It isn't like we don't still target these guys, we just aren't as good at it. What current difference makers do we have from jucos? I can only think of two; Abdul Beecham and Byron Pringle.

[kso_FAN]

I guess I should have said readily available. Maybe we don't recruit as hard, but not nearly as many teams were willing to recruit JUCO players in the 90s either, so there is much more competition to get those players now.

And I agree that we need a difference maker, especially I defense. When I look at the offense, I think we could have 2-3 guys become all Big 12 caliber and Pringle could be our next big time returner. But I'm not sure I see a couple guys on defense that will be all Big 12, and you have to have those players to be a league contender. I'm not seeing a Brown and Zimmerman yet and that's the biggest problem on this team.

[michigancat]

I guess I should have said readily available. Maybe we don't recruit as hard, but not nearly as many teams were willing to recruit JUCO players in the 90s either, so there is much more competition to get those players now.

And I agree that we need a difference maker, especially I defense. When I look at the offense, I think we could have 2-3 guys become all Big 12 caliber and Pringle could be our next big time returner. But I'm not sure I see a couple guys on defense that will be all Big 12, and you have to have those players to be a league contender. I'm not seeing a Brown and Zimmerman yet and that's the biggest problem on this team.

Willis is basically a lock for all big 12, Geary has a good shot, as does Lee.

[michigancat]

Granted, they aren't as good as Brown or Zimmermann

[Cire]

Barnett is good against the run but Zimmerman could play both.

Passing game is the only thing holding the offense back.

[kso_FAN]

I guess I should have said readily available. Maybe we don't recruit as hard, but not nearly as many teams were willing to recruit JUCO players in the 90s either, so there is much more competition to get those players now.

And I agree that we need a difference maker, especially I defense. When I look at the offense, I think we could have 2-3 guys become all Big 12 caliber and Pringle could be our next big time returner. But I'm not sure I see a couple guys on defense that will be all Big 12, and you have to have those players to be a league contender. I'm not seeing a Brown and Zimmerman yet and that's the biggest problem on this team.

Willis is basically a lock for all big 12, Geary has a good shot, as does Lee.

Good point, and I agree none are the playmakers that Brown/Zimm were. That's what the defense needs more than any scheme adjustments. I commended our recruiting of late and I think its been fairly good. That said, while the staff has done a good job identifying and developing skill at many offensive positions and with returners, defensive playmakers have been rare. That has to happen with players currently here or coming in next year for this team to take the next step. I firmly believe the offense and special teams are moving in the right direction, but I'm not sure on the defense. If defense makes even decent improvement, I think we will see a double digit win season in the next two years.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

I think Bill has improvised on offense as much as any coach ever.  We had 350 yards rushing out of the shot gun last week.

[kslim]

Things have changed in the juco world. That has made a massive difference. Credit old bill there

This. Bill was able to tap a talent source that simply isn't available anymore.

What do you mean "isn't available anymore?" There is just as many, if not more D1 talents in the Jayhawk Conference as there were in the 90s. The issue is that it takes effort that the staff does not put in. It's what intrigues me the most about a new staff, new found energy in recruiting. It is also a source of frustration for me when idiots act as if Manhattan is Anchorage, with no talent around at all. We don't have to go crazy getting ten community college kids per class or anything but there are difference makers out there.

It isn't like we don't still target these guys, we just aren't as good at it. What current difference makers do we have from jucos? I can only think of two; Abdul Beecham and Byron Pringle.

simple answer was acceptance criteria, schools have changed that

[michigancat]

The conference title runs weren't exactly Juco heavy. Yeah you had a couple big time transfers (Harper, Brown, Terry) but outside of Brown the real stars were all high school recruits. Not saying we couldn't be doing a better job there, but more schools recruiting Juco's is a pretty lame reason/excuse for the decline in talent.

[kso_FAN]

The conference title runs weren't exactly Juco heavy. Yeah you had a couple big time transfers (Harper, Brown, Terry) but outside of Brown the real stars were all high school recruits. Not saying we couldn't be doing a better job there, but more schools recruiting Juco's is a pretty lame reason/excuse for the decline in talent.

That's true. 08 was probably the last JUCO heavy team.

[kslim]

The conference title runs weren't exactly Juco heavy. Yeah you had a couple big time transfers (Harper, Brown, Terry) but outside of Brown the real stars were all high school recruits. Not saying we couldn't be doing a better job there, but more schools recruiting Juco's is a pretty lame reason/excuse for the decline in talent.

well when the OP was talking about the 1997 fiesta team you can understand why i said that the jucos have changed. they have

[michigancat]

The conference title runs weren't exactly Juco heavy. Yeah you had a couple big time transfers (Harper, Brown, Terry) but outside of Brown the real stars were all high school recruits. Not saying we couldn't be doing a better job there, but more schools recruiting Juco's is a pretty lame reason/excuse for the decline in talent.

well when the OP was talking about the 1997 fiesta team you can understand why i said that the jucos have changed. they have

But the changes are not why we no longer have elite talent

[kslim]

The conference title runs weren't exactly Juco heavy. Yeah you had a couple big time transfers (Harper, Brown, Terry) but outside of Brown the real stars were all high school recruits. Not saying we couldn't be doing a better job there, but more schools recruiting Juco's is a pretty lame reason/excuse for the decline in talent.

well when the OP was talking about the 1997 fiesta team you can understand why i said that the jucos have changed. they have

But the changes are not why we no longer have elite talent

sure they are, the bigger schools have lowered their admission criteria which has hurt us in recruiting battles

[cfbandyman]

I think the other thing at play (other than losing out more at JUCO talent) is that the offenses in the Big 12 in 96-03 are not the offenses that emerged once leach really came around into his own around 2005 and on. I think that not only did Bill have more talent in the late 90's/early 2000's, but the game was also a slower, more plodding game, and coming up with big home run places put you at an advantage. The roles are almost reversed today. We are really the only team in the Big 12 that purposefully tries to slow down the game, take as much time off the clock and reduce possessions, and of course play as clean a game as possible with the least amount of turnovers.

Sure, a significant part of that is due to not having as much top flight talent, but it also conveniently suits our lesser amounts of talent, and makes us once again the "odd ball" team out of the bunch, which I think makes it harder for teams to prepare against, and since we see basically the same thing from every team, we don't have to alter as much in prepping for them.

As for Nicname saying if this development has hurt us more or not, I think really all it's done lower the ceiling and raise the floor. WE won't ever be super amazing I think under this plan, but we won't fall off the map either.