Author Topic: Scalia  (Read 56813 times)

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Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #300 on: February 16, 2016, 01:14:09 PM »
If the Constitution is "wrong," there is an avenue to amend the Constitution. 

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #301 on: February 16, 2016, 01:14:17 PM »

I'd like to think the republicans have done themselves a big disservice by coming out against a hypothetical nominee instead of waiting to get an actual living, breathing nominee with weaknesses to attack. Their voting base is dumb enough that they are probably taking their best course of action, though.

Yea, if I was in that talking point meeting I would say that the party line should be "we look forward to the President's nomination and hope he chooses a strong candidate as one of his final acts in office." Knowing, of course, you will end up smearing the crap out of the person and faking outrage over what a poor, irresponsible choice he made.

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #302 on: February 16, 2016, 01:36:46 PM »

Pretty convenient for Scalia's conservatism. Also, though, even if it was somehow completely neutral, isn't his adherence to originalism itself just another application of an ideology?

Not really, IMO. You could objectively say that SCOTUS's role is to interpret the Constitution, and that interpreting a document should entail considering the circumstances in which it was written, not future circumstances.

I don't think you could objectively say any of that.

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #303 on: February 16, 2016, 01:40:02 PM »
Our rule-of-law on immigration has always been based upon racism.

Not to go too far off topic, but if anything our immigration laws are biased in favor of poor, unskilled immigrants from "brown" countries. See "chain immigration."
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline star seed 7

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #304 on: February 16, 2016, 01:43:27 PM »
Our rule-of-law on immigration has always been based upon racism.

Not to go too far off topic, but if anything our immigration laws are biased in favor of poor, unskilled immigrants from "brown" countries. See "chain immigration."

Yes, and you want to stop that
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #305 on: February 16, 2016, 01:59:43 PM »
Our rule-of-law on immigration has always been based upon racism.

Not to go too far off topic, but if anything our immigration laws are biased in favor of poor, unskilled immigrants from "brown" countries. See "chain immigration."

Yes, and you want to stop that

Yup. But to say our immigration laws are racist is stupid. Neither is it racist to want to change those laws to focus on admitting more skilled immigrants who can support themselves.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #306 on: February 16, 2016, 02:01:20 PM »
Yes, nothing beats the intelligence of a voting base of which a substantial number in that base vote based on skin color.
They don't pass the ball either.

Just stick to statistics and bar graphs. 


Offline CHONGS

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #307 on: February 16, 2016, 02:13:03 PM »
oh now dax, don't get fussy

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #308 on: February 16, 2016, 02:13:19 PM »
Our rule-of-law on immigration has always been based upon racism.

Not to go too far off topic, but if anything our immigration laws are biased in favor of poor, unskilled immigrants from "brown" countries. See "chain immigration."

Yes, and you want to stop that

Yup. But to say our immigration laws are racist is stupid. Neither is it racist to want to change those laws to focus on admitting more skilled immigrants who can support themselves.

Why not let the market decide which type of immigrant is best for the country?

Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #309 on: February 16, 2016, 02:15:07 PM »
The market does decide in some ways and it can be quite  :sdeek: :sdeek: :sdeek:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/22/us/22wyoming.html?_r=0

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #310 on: February 16, 2016, 02:34:39 PM »
The market does decide in some ways and it can be quite  :sdeek: :sdeek: :sdeek:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/22/us/22wyoming.html?_r=0

Sheep herders chose that life.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #311 on: February 16, 2016, 02:37:59 PM »
I love how dax still thinks Obama only got elected because he's black, but rejects any notion that he is the racist. "It's not me it's those people."

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #312 on: February 16, 2016, 02:43:49 PM »
I love how dax still thinks Obama only got elected because he's black, but rejects any notion that he is the racist. "It's not me it's those people."

Absolutely no where did I say "only got elected because he's black", MIR is so freaking weird and always butthurt.


Offline Spracne

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #313 on: February 16, 2016, 03:08:52 PM »

Pretty convenient for Scalia's conservatism. Also, though, even if it was somehow completely neutral, isn't his adherence to originalism itself just another application of an ideology?

Not really, IMO. You could objectively say that SCOTUS's role is to interpret the Constitution, and that interpreting a document should entail considering the circumstances in which it was written, not future circumstances.

I don't think you could objectively say any of that.

It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is, and the Constitution is the supreme law of the land. I think the first two clauses of catastrophe's second sentence are as close to objectively true as you can get in this wacky, argle-bargle world. Of course, the last clause should be disregarded because anticipating future circumstances was very much part of the circumstances under which the Constitution was written. After all, it was a constitution they were framing.

Whether Scalia should be admonished for adhering to the type of ideologies he accused other judges of adhering to is a question of semantics that hinges on whether you consider Originalism to be an ideology. I would consider it more of a schema or analytical framework, but the modern definition of ideology is sufficiently broad to encompass it if one were so motivated. However, in 1791, "ideology" had a much more specific meaning and referred to the scientific study of the origins and nature of ideas. BOOM. Dismissed.

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #314 on: February 16, 2016, 03:51:11 PM »

Pretty convenient for Scalia's conservatism. Also, though, even if it was somehow completely neutral, isn't his adherence to originalism itself just another application of an ideology?

Not really, IMO. You could objectively say that SCOTUS's role is to interpret the Constitution, and that interpreting a document should entail considering the circumstances in which it was written, not future circumstances.

I don't think you could objectively say any of that.

It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is, and the Constitution is the supreme law of the land. I think the first two clauses of catastrophe's second sentence are as close to objectively true as you can get in this wacky, argle-bargle world. Of course, the last clause should be disregarded because anticipating future circumstances was very much part of the circumstances under which the Constitution was written. After all, it was a constitution they were framing.

Whether Scalia should be admonished for adhering to the type of ideologies he accused other judges of adhering to is a question of semantics that hinges on whether you consider Originalism to be an ideology. I would consider it more of a schema or analytical framework, but the modern definition of ideology is sufficiently broad to encompass it if one were so motivated. However, in 1791, "ideology" had a much more specific meaning and referred to the scientific study of the origins and nature of ideas. BOOM. Dismissed.

If those things were objectively true, no one could disagree with them - in the same way that no one could disagree that 2+2=4. In contrast, there is plenty of room for disagreement on both the exact role of the Supreme Court and to what extent interpreting entails considering circumstances.

If you advocate for any of the many possible definitions of these things, it seems to me that you're embracing an ideology that isn't necessarily shared by everyone else.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #315 on: February 16, 2016, 04:20:22 PM »

Pretty convenient for Scalia's conservatism. Also, though, even if it was somehow completely neutral, isn't his adherence to originalism itself just another application of an ideology?

Not really, IMO. You could objectively say that SCOTUS's role is to interpret the Constitution, and that interpreting a document should entail considering the circumstances in which it was written, not future circumstances.

I don't think you could objectively say any of that.

It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is, and the Constitution is the supreme law of the land. I think the first two clauses of catastrophe's second sentence are as close to objectively true as you can get in this wacky, argle-bargle world. Of course, the last clause should be disregarded because anticipating future circumstances was very much part of the circumstances under which the Constitution was written. After all, it was a constitution they were framing.

Whether Scalia should be admonished for adhering to the type of ideologies he accused other judges of adhering to is a question of semantics that hinges on whether you consider Originalism to be an ideology. I would consider it more of a schema or analytical framework, but the modern definition of ideology is sufficiently broad to encompass it if one were so motivated. However, in 1791, "ideology" had a much more specific meaning and referred to the scientific study of the origins and nature of ideas. BOOM. Dismissed.

If those things were objectively true, no one could disagree with them - in the same way that no one could disagree that 2+2=4. In contrast, there is plenty of room for disagreement on both the exact role of the Supreme Court and to what extent interpreting entails considering circumstances.

If you advocate for any of the many possible definitions of these things, it seems to me that you're embracing an ideology that isn't necessarily shared by everyone else.

Absolute precision in law or language is not attainable. Consequently, civilized people tend to accept as a practical matter that truth and falsehood need to be employed as approximations. To argue over what is truly objective leads to absurdities and doesn't really advance the understanding of anyone involved in discussing a controversy. In fact, it just obfuscates the issue. As the poet Dylan said, there are no truths outside the gates of Eden. Or as Pontius Pilate once opined: Quid est veritas? We aren't dealing with a topic that can be analyzed with the precision of mathematical propositions. While I'm sure you could advance an argument that the framers did not intend the Supreme Court to interpret the Constitution, you would certainly have to rely on the same type of arguments that you criticize Scalia for using. In any event, the great weight of authority and history since Marbury v. Madison certainly demonstrates that interpreting the Constitution IS a role of the Supreme Court. Even if you want to argue that it ought not be, that is a different question than what is.

As a practical matter, "interpreting a document should entail considering the circumstances in which it was written." (Sic). I can't fathom anything controversial about that assertion. Notwithstanding its want of arithmetic proof, it is true per se. But, if you'd like to take a crack at it, I'd love to read your answer.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #316 on: February 16, 2016, 04:24:32 PM »
You're objectively a dumbass.

Seriously though, your criterion for determining objectivity is just wrong. Just because people DO disagree over something doesn't mean it's actually debatable. The Earth is objectively spherical, but people still disagree over that. The fact that a lot of people disagree doesn't really change anything.

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #317 on: February 16, 2016, 04:40:42 PM »
I just realized that you guys are right and that everyone is an originalist!


Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #319 on: February 16, 2016, 04:49:07 PM »
I just realized that you guys are right and that everyone is an originalist!

It really was just that simple!  I read the post and realized I was totally wrong!

Offline michigancat

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #320 on: February 16, 2016, 04:57:40 PM »

Offline Spracne

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #321 on: February 16, 2016, 05:03:04 PM »

Offline sys

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #322 on: February 16, 2016, 05:21:06 PM »
Quote
a genuine Westerner (California does not count)

he wrote this in a real life opinion?

he's right, of course.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #323 on: February 16, 2016, 05:29:18 PM »
The more Scalia excerpts I read, the more I think he dedicated 60 years of his life to developing increasingly convoluted theories in order to convince himself that his views on legal matters weren't merely his conservatism in disguise.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Scalia
« Reply #324 on: February 16, 2016, 06:03:52 PM »
I love how dax still thinks Obama only got elected because he's black, but rejects any notion that he is the racist. "It's not me it's those people."

Absolutely no where did I say "only got elected because he's black", MIR is so freaking weird and always butthurt.




Okay bud, keep splitting those hairs

Yes, nothing beats the intelligence of a voting base of which a substantial number in that base vote based on skin color.