Author Topic: A well-coached team (Read 8264 times)

CHONGS · « **on:** January 21, 2016, 02:20:24 PM »

"This is a well-coached team"

This phrase gets thrown around a lot. I often see it when teams run a more "structured offense" and|or take charges (mainly via weak side help). This is also commonly used with team that don't have a winning record. For our purposes let's also separate this from recruiting. This is just about X-and-Oing, teaching the guys (and gals!) you have.

What quantitative measure(s) can one look at to verify these claims? Obviously not wins and losses.

Turnovers? Doubtful, that is often more a measure of how much risk a team willing to accept. A team with no turnovers isn't a necessarily a well coached team, just a passive cautious one.

Rebounds? Maybe, but this is called a "hustle" or "effort" stat quite a bit. I suppose positioning and boxing out are coached....

Free Throw %? A fan favorite for sure, but I doubt it.

Charges drawn? Another fan favorite, but I suspect this is largely influenced by defensive style.

In contrast what measures a poorly coached team?

8manpick · « **Reply #1 on:** January 21, 2016, 02:21:46 PM »

Opponent 3P%

Shot charts with large gaps in the longer mid-range areas

AppleJack · « **Reply #2 on:** January 21, 2016, 02:30:39 PM »

bounce passes per 100 minutes

Cire · « **Reply #3 on:** January 21, 2016, 02:32:50 PM »

win % in close games

CNS · « **Reply #4 on:** January 21, 2016, 02:39:17 PM »

Player development year to year.

michigancat · « **Reply #5 on:** January 21, 2016, 02:42:08 PM »

Hmm, I think wins are a pretty good indicator

CNS · « **Reply #6 on:** January 21, 2016, 02:46:21 PM »

One who can placate the majority of their fanbase with basically no effort

michigancat · « **Reply #7 on:** January 21, 2016, 02:47:58 PM »

Quote from: memphis on January 21, 2016, 02:45:27 PM

Well if you want to go completely devil's advocate, the game is played between two different rosters. There isn't a single stat you can use to measure coaching that isn't influenced by the roster of those teams(differences in skill sets, athleticism, height/length, depth of the roster). A well coached team is one that finds out how to maximize the performance of the roster to try and win games or at least have the margin of loss minimized(if the discrepancy in the rosters is large enough).

I think Ken Pomeroy's efficiency metrics are decent indication KSU is being coached well but the record would be an indictment of the current roster. Then again maybe roster's excellence is just propping up oscar's terrible coaching with these KenPom #'s

basically, any measure of "coaching ability" is irrelevant without taking recruiting/roster retention into consideration.

Skipper44 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 21, 2016, 03:12:33 PM »

Quote from: Chingon on January 21, 2016, 02:20:24 PM

Turnovers? Doubtful, that is often more a measure of how much risk a team willing to accept. A team with no turnovers isn't a necessarily a well coached team, just a passive cautious one.

a pace vs turnovers ratio seems like a decent metric. It seems like Huggs was able to take essentially the same roster as Wooly had and increase pace while reducing turnovers but my statsheet bookmarks are no longer valid

CNS · « **Reply #9 on:** January 21, 2016, 03:18:15 PM »

Pace brings style, theory, etc of how to play the game unto it.

It is development, almost by definition, and wins.

Trim · « **Reply #10 on:** January 21, 2016, 03:20:18 PM »

well=SLTH

michigancat · « **Reply #11 on:** January 21, 2016, 03:20:36 PM »

Quote from: Skipper44 on January 21, 2016, 03:12:33 PM

Quote from: Chingon on January 21, 2016, 02:20:24 PM

Turnovers? Doubtful, that is often more a measure of how much risk a team willing to accept. A team with no turnovers isn't a necessarily a well coached team, just a passive cautious one.

a pace vs turnovers ratio seems like a decent metric. It seems like Huggs was able to take essentially the same roster as Wooly had and increase pace while reducing turnovers but my statsheet bookmarks are no longer valid

The most significant change Huggs made is he had the 06-07 team shoot a lot more threes than Wooly. (and they could hit them). So, understanding your roster and building a philosophy/style that maximizes that roster's strengths and minimizes their weaknesses is probably as important as anything. Huggs did this again (last year?) when he started pressing with his WVU team that was athletic as hell but couldn't really shoot.

Skipper44 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 21, 2016, 03:21:08 PM »

ok fine, the measure is backdoor cuts, both achieved and allowed

CHONGS · « **Reply #13 on:** January 21, 2016, 03:23:08 PM »

Well we have to take wins off the board as a metric, otherwise the widely made claim that this KSU group is a well coached team is right off of the table.

Skipper44 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 21, 2016, 03:27:28 PM »

Quote from: Trim on January 21, 2016, 03:20:18 PM

well=SLTH

I couldn't find it but didn't we have long thread debating on if oscar was a SLTH or not? I kinda seems silly it was ever a question now

Gooch · « **Reply #15 on:** January 21, 2016, 03:28:55 PM »

Quote from: Skipper44 on January 21, 2016, 03:27:28 PM

Quote from: Trim on January 21, 2016, 03:20:18 PM
well=SLTH
I couldn't find it but didn't we have long thread debating on if oscar was a SLTH or not? I kinda seems silly it was ever a question now

just drop the S regarding oscar

Fedor · « **Reply #16 on:** January 21, 2016, 03:33:11 PM »

Quote from: Gooch on January 21, 2016, 03:28:55 PM

Quote from: Skipper44 on January 21, 2016, 03:27:28 PM
Quote from: Trim on January 21, 2016, 03:20:18 PM
well=SLTH
I couldn't find it but didn't we have long thread debating on if oscar was a SLTH or not? I kinda seems silly it was ever a question now
just drop the S regarding oscar

S=Shitty

pissclams · « **Reply #17 on:** January 21, 2016, 03:36:12 PM »

if you can't see the amount of "want" that this team plays with, then I'm sorry because you don't know basketball

imagine this team without the leadership that we have...pretty scary

kso_FAN · « **Reply #18 on:** January 21, 2016, 04:47:33 PM »

When media says well coached they mean that a) the coach is likable to media members and b) the guys run stuff decently and play hard. But probably more a than b. Also they probably don't have a lot of talent, certainly not all league caliber players.

Brock Landers · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2016, 04:57:53 PM »

Wooly's teams were frequently praised by other Big 12 coaches and announcers as being well coached, which is all you need to know about that phrase.

meow meow · « **Reply #20 on:** January 21, 2016, 05:02:32 PM »

Doc Sadler had some well coached teams.

kso_FAN · « **Reply #21 on:** January 21, 2016, 05:15:01 PM »

Again its largely based on media perception and the message they tell.

For example:

https://twitter.com/kencorbitt/status/690308115724668928

However, it was the worst offensive efficiency game in Big 12 play at 0.94 ppp.

Cartierfor3 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 21, 2016, 05:29:43 PM »

Its the sports equivalent of saying "she has a really nice personality"

michigancat · « **Reply #23 on:** January 21, 2016, 05:35:56 PM »

This KSU team definitely does not play hard.

kso_FAN · « **Reply #24 on:** January 21, 2016, 05:57:29 PM »

Quote from: michigancat on January 21, 2016, 05:35:56 PM

This KSU team definitely does not play hard.

They play hard enough. Effort isn't the issue. MHO.