Author Topic: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look  (Read 138990 times)

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Offline DQ12

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1675 on: February 22, 2023, 03:26:25 PM »
As far as “anytime they die,” I don’t necessarily think that’s the case here. Not my expertise at all, but I’d sure expect that an artist could make arrangements to ensure their work isn’t tampered with after they die.

And otherwise, yes. If you give those rights away (not being coerced of course), you have no space to complain when the rightful holder changes them as they see fit. What else is the point of ownership vs licensing?

You don’t see me claiming censorship when I sell my house and the new owner takes down the Ernie Barret replica statue I had in the courtyard. It’s up to the new owner’s completely terrible tastes.
I don't think we need to get into the weeds regarding an obscure discussion of property or estate law because I think that misses the point. No argument from me that the family/publisher broke the law or violated any tenet of property rights here. I acknowledge that the rightsholders had the right to do whatever they wanted with the IP (including censor portions of it it!). I also think lawncare is different than literature for lots of reasons that we can (but I don't think *need* to) discuss.

What happened is that the books he authored had portions deleted because they were considered objectionable - which happens to actually be the dictionary definition of "censor."  That you think that's not merely "not censorship," but actually the opposite of censorship is bonkers to me.  And not for nothing, but i think we can agree that not all censorship is necessarily "bad."  But I think it's starts approaching "bad" when you're modifying someone else's art to make it less offensive without their approval (read: after they're dead).  And I think assuming that Dahl approved of these changes by not dotting his i's or crossing his t's in his estate plan is a pretty big assumption.


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Offline Fedor

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1676 on: February 22, 2023, 03:37:46 PM »
As far as “anytime they die,” I don’t necessarily think that’s the case here. Not my expertise at all, but I’d sure expect that an artist could make arrangements to ensure their work isn’t tampered with after they die.

And otherwise, yes. If you give those rights away (not being coerced of course), you have no space to complain when the rightful holder changes them as they see fit. What else is the point of ownership vs licensing?

You don’t see me claiming censorship when I sell my house and the new owner takes down the Ernie Barret replica statue I had in the courtyard. It’s up to the new owner’s completely terrible tastes.
I don't think we need to get into the weeds regarding an obscure discussion of property or estate law because I think that misses the point. No argument from me that the family/publisher broke the law or violated any tenet of property rights here. I acknowledge that the rightsholders had the right to do whatever they wanted with the IP (including censor portions of it it!). I also think lawncare is different than literature for lots of reasons that we can (but I don't think *need* to) discuss.

What happened is that the books he authored had portions deleted because they were considered objectionable - which happens to actually be the dictionary definition of "censor."  That you think that's not merely "not censorship," but actually the opposite of censorship is bonkers to me.  And not for nothing, but i think we can agree that not all censorship is necessarily "bad."  But I think it's starts approaching "bad" when you're modifying someone else's art to make it less offensive without their approval (read: after they're dead).  And I think assuming that Dahl approved of these changes by not dotting his i's or crossing his t's in his estate plan is a pretty big assumption.
Also I think it is important to note that google seems to believe that the copyright grants the right to "derivative works" and not necessarily carte blanche to change the work however the copyright holder pleases.  The censored version can be a new version, a derivative work, but it is no longer the author's original work.
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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1677 on: February 22, 2023, 03:45:46 PM »
Dlew, I understand your side here, and I would probably object to other forms of "censorship", but this particular case is so minor and seems like normal editor type changes that would likely be acceptable if the book was written today. Maybe that's projection on my part.

I also think being a children's book is part of the equation. If this was adult literature I would not understand any need to update the work.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline 8manpick

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1678 on: February 22, 2023, 03:46:08 PM »
I’m with DQ. Changing old books is stupid. If the old books are offensive don’t read them.
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Offline Spracne

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1679 on: February 22, 2023, 03:49:46 PM »
I stand with catastrophe. This is such a wrongheaded thing to get hung up on.

Offline CHONGS

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1680 on: February 22, 2023, 04:13:58 PM »
They've done this to stuff like Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys tons of times already.  Not that uncommon in children's literature.

Offline nicname

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1681 on: February 22, 2023, 04:16:13 PM »
I’m with DQ. Changing old books is stupid. If the old books are offensive don’t read them.

Same.
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Offline Spracne

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1682 on: February 22, 2023, 04:17:03 PM »
I’m with DQ. Changing old books is stupid. If the old books are offensive don’t read them.

Same.

This is an affront to property rights, though.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1683 on: February 22, 2023, 04:17:31 PM »
I agree it is wrongheaded

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1684 on: February 22, 2023, 04:38:06 PM »
Dlew, I understand your side here, and I would probably object to other forms of "censorship", but this particular case is so minor and seems like normal editor type changes that would likely be acceptable if the book was written today. Maybe that's projection on my part.

I also think being a children's book is part of the equation. If this was adult literature I would not understand any need to update the work.

good thoughts. The copyright holders are doing this to make sure it continues to be recommended by librarians and teachers. If you were Dahl's ghost, and you saw language that wasn't offensive at the time evolve into something offensive as attitudes shifted, would you be willing to adjust that so more children could read the story, or updated it slightly with the times so people continue to enjoy it? I think the ghost would probably prefer more children read the story.

also I'm really glad Eenie-meanie-miney-mo was censored before I started using it. Yikes!

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1685 on: February 22, 2023, 04:41:07 PM »
I’m with DQ. Changing old books is stupid. If the old books are offensive don’t read them.

Same.

This is an affront to property rights, though.

The cover needs to say "based on the original works of Roald Dahl. Edited by..." and it's fine.

Offline Spracne

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1686 on: February 22, 2023, 04:49:35 PM »
I’m with DQ. Changing old books is stupid. If the old books are offensive don’t read them.

Same.

This is an affront to property rights, though.

The cover needs to say "based on the original works of Roald Dahl. Edited by..." and it's fine.

I really can't imagine getting upset over this, but feel free to buy the rights and make whatever changes you feel are appropriate.

By the way, the first leaf after the cover will inevitably contain the information you desire. "Enormously fat" vs. "Enormous". Just write "^ly fat" between the lines if it matters that much to you.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1687 on: February 22, 2023, 06:48:10 PM »
I’m with DQ. Changing old books is stupid. If the old books are offensive don’t read them.
The old ones aren’t changing. Only the new ones.

Offline CHONGS

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1688 on: February 22, 2023, 06:51:27 PM »
We have actual state enforced censorship happening in Florida, but it's telling our "free speech" advocates don't seem concerned.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1689 on: February 22, 2023, 06:54:54 PM »
Well now gE management (Chongs) has told me to go back and take out all the times I’ve used “fat” on this board and brother, it’s a whoooole lot.

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1690 on: February 22, 2023, 07:07:32 PM »
Well now gE management (Chongs) has told me to go back and take out all the times I’ve used “fat” on this board and brother, it’s a whoooole lot.
I want to sell the collection of posts on the site as a book, and fat people are in our target demo.

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1691 on: February 22, 2023, 07:21:57 PM »
We have actual state enforced censorship happening in Florida, but it's telling our "free speech" advocates don't seem concerned.

That’s true, Enormous Ron has been doing some heavy lifting in terms of state sponsored censorship but let us not lose focus on the important issue.

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1692 on: February 22, 2023, 08:14:37 PM »
Well now gE management (Chongs) has told me to go back and take out all the times I’ve used “fat” on this board and brother, it’s a whoooole lot.
I want to sell the collection of posts on the site as a book, and fat people are in our target demo.

Just look how many posts I have!
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Offline DQ12

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1693 on: February 22, 2023, 09:05:43 PM »
We have actual state enforced censorship happening in Florida, but it's telling our "free speech" advocates don't seem concerned.
Don’t like that either!  But it seems like aside from dax that’s basically a consensus on this board. 


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Offline steve dave

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1695 on: February 23, 2023, 02:10:31 PM »
 :lol:
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Offline DQ12

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1696 on: February 23, 2023, 02:28:44 PM »
 :lol:


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Offline OK_Cat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1697 on: February 23, 2023, 02:29:29 PM »
 :D

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1698 on: February 24, 2023, 11:42:24 AM »
https://variety.com/2023/film/news/matilda-roald-dahl-rewritten-rerelease-1235534515/

The edited books might end up being sort of valuable as collectors items some day.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1699 on: February 24, 2023, 11:58:41 AM »
I cant believe they censored the edits. SAD