Author Topic: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look  (Read 138946 times)

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Offline DQ12

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1125 on: July 30, 2018, 12:07:33 PM »
Yeah the polls seem pretty silly but that's kind of the point. And as the article mentioned, white males is the only group that doesn't have to engage in identity politics, so it makes sense that you wouldn't like it.

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White men bridle at the notion of being part of a tribe or engaging in identity politics. (Ahem.) Alone among social groups, they are allowed the illusion that they have only their own bespoke identity, that they are pure freethinkers, citizens, unburdened and uninfluenced by collective baggage (unique and precious “snowflakes,” if you will).

No one else is allowed to think that — at least not for long, before they are reminded again that they are, in the eyes of their country, little more than their identity, their asterisk. No one else gets to pretend their politics are free of identity.


Right, I saw that in the article.  And I'm not sure I understand it.   A lot of white people do engage in identity politics.  Richard Spencer and his ilk certainly do.  The 82% who responded to his poll did.  Racist cops and politicians and whoever else do.  People who look sideways at a black guy who walks into a store do.  You get my point.

I think what the author is implicitly getting at isn't merely "white people should be engaged in identity politics," but rather "white people should be engaged in identity politics and adopt identity political views with those of non-whites."  which are two very different things that lead to two very different outcomes. from a game theory perspective, i think it's a bad idea to encourage more identity politics -- particularly from white people. 

I think the more direct solution is for us to treat everyone as if they have their "own bespoke identity, that they are pure freethinkers, citizens, unburdened and uninfluenced by collective baggage."  maybe that's naive, but i think it's a more realistic remedy than the one the article seems to suggest.


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Offline CHONGS

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1126 on: July 30, 2018, 12:45:04 PM »
Except for women, who all want to touch babies.

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1127 on: July 30, 2018, 01:26:19 PM »
Yeah the polls seem pretty silly but that's kind of the point. And as the article mentioned, white males is the only group that doesn't have to engage in identity politics, so it makes sense that you wouldn't like it.

Quote
White men bridle at the notion of being part of a tribe or engaging in identity politics. (Ahem.) Alone among social groups, they are allowed the illusion that they have only their own bespoke identity, that they are pure freethinkers, citizens, unburdened and uninfluenced by collective baggage (unique and precious “snowflakes,” if you will).

No one else is allowed to think that — at least not for long, before they are reminded again that they are, in the eyes of their country, little more than their identity, their asterisk. No one else gets to pretend their politics are free of identity.


Right, I saw that in the article.  And I'm not sure I understand it.   A lot of white people do engage in identity politics.  Richard Spencer and his ilk certainly do.  The 82% who responded to his poll did.  Racist cops and politicians and whoever else do.  People who look sideways at a black guy who walks into a store do.  You get my point.

I think what the author is implicitly getting at isn't merely "white people should be engaged in identity politics," but rather "white people should be engaged in identity politics and adopt identity political views with those of non-whites."  which are two very different things that lead to two very different outcomes. from a game theory perspective, i think it's a bad idea to encourage more identity politics -- particularly from white people. 

I think the more direct solution is for us to treat everyone as if they have their "own bespoke identity, that they are pure freethinkers, citizens, unburdened and uninfluenced by collective baggage."  maybe that's naive, but i think it's a more realistic remedy than the one the article seems to suggest.

Another way to look at it is white people have always engaged in identity politics and are only now having to recognize and "fight" for their identity as it shrinks. Declaring (starting now) that everyone has their "own bespoke identity, that they are pure freethinkers, citizens, unburdened and uninfluenced by collective baggage" is white male identity politics at its finest. (and yes I think you're naive if you think non white males are unburdened and uninfluenced by "collective baggage", regardless of how you define it)
 
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What primes white people is simply the reminder that they are white people — that they are, and will increasingly be, one group of Americans among others, with particular interests, settling differences via democracy.

Right now, the white maleocracy is clinging to power, with disproportionate wealth and representation in Congress relative to its size. And all the while, its leaders decry identity politics. They are used to being the default setting, people with no asterisks, no baggage, and they are extremely loath to give that up.

In fact, they want their America, the America where white dominance is so ubiquitous as to be unremarkable, back. They keep saying so.

As many have pointed out and this political era has made painfully clear, to a dominant demographic, the loss of privilege feels like persecution. Being just one group among many feels like losing. After all, what good is being white in the US, especially among poor whites, if some third-generation Ugandan immigrant has just as much control over their fate as they have over hers? If a poll asks whether they’re any good for her, rather than the other way around?

For the dominant group, being judged and asked to justify itself, as so many subaltern groups are judged and asked to justify themselves, feels like an insult. If you doubt that, go read this Twitter thread.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 01:30:07 PM by michigancat »

Offline DQ12

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1128 on: July 30, 2018, 01:51:26 PM »
Another way to look at it is white people have always engaged in identity politics and are only now having to recognize and "fight" for their identity as it shrinks. Declaring (starting now) that everyone has their "own bespoke identity, that they are pure freethinkers, citizens, unburdened and uninfluenced by collective baggage" is white male identity politics at its finest. (and yes I think you're naive if you think non white males are unburdened and uninfluenced by "collective baggage", regardless of how you define it)
Yes, I agree with the bold portion.  And I think that spirit is fueling a lot of the alt-right stuff -- which i think is a bad, though predictable consequence of encouraging everyone to act based on their own racial identity.   

And my position isn't that everyone is "unburdened and uninfluenced by collective baggage."  I'm saying that we should treat individuals the same regardless of their race and that we shouldn't assume things about individuals (how they will act, what they believe, etc.) based on their race.  I know that's a tall order.


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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1129 on: July 30, 2018, 02:06:47 PM »
You will never, never take my privilege away from me.

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Offline Katpappy

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1130 on: July 30, 2018, 04:21:33 PM »
https://twitter.com/willwilkinson/status/1023234925737267203
I liked that article
Yes.  Interesting article.

I think identity politics are bad because identity politics devalue individuals' agency and leads to more division based on race, which I view as arbitrary.  I think the biases that encourage identity politics are bad for the same reasons.  If the response to racial bias is more racial bias, I don't think that helps anything.

I also think the twitter polls at issue in the article are a little silly.  I think a possible (and imo, the proper) response to demographic shits is to be neutral about them. 

 :eek:
:lol:
Hot time in Kat town tonight.

Offline Katpappy

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Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1132 on: July 30, 2018, 06:04:51 PM »
And my position isn't that everyone is "unburdened and uninfluenced by collective baggage."  I'm saying that we should treat individuals the same regardless of their race and that we shouldn't assume things about individuals (how they will act, what they believe, etc.) based on their race.  I know that's a tall order.

I wonder if any "identity politics" group other than white males thinks this is realistic or practical.

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1133 on: July 30, 2018, 06:20:37 PM »
And my position isn't that everyone is "unburdened and uninfluenced by collective baggage."  I'm saying that we should treat individuals the same regardless of their race and that we shouldn't assume things about individuals (how they will act, what they believe, etc.) based on their race.  I know that's a tall order.

I wonder if any "identity politics" group other than white males thinks this is realistic or practical.

this, btw, is exactly the difference btwn ordering a society along a "colorblind" ideal vs a "multicultural" ideal that the other study i posted a tweet of a while back was talking about.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1134 on: July 30, 2018, 06:22:41 PM »
And my position isn't that everyone is "unburdened and uninfluenced by collective baggage."  I'm saying that we should treat individuals the same regardless of their race and that we shouldn't assume things about individuals (how they will act, what they believe, etc.) based on their race.  I know that's a tall order.

I wonder if any "identity politics" group other than white males thinks this is realistic or practical.

this, btw, is exactly the difference btwn ordering a society along a "colorblind" ideal vs a "multicultural" ideal that the other study i posted a tweet of a while back was talking about.
I wonder where the colorblind societies were.

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1135 on: July 30, 2018, 06:25:32 PM »
france is usually used as the best example.  us and uk as multicultural examples.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1136 on: July 30, 2018, 06:26:39 PM »
oh, you meant in the study.  it'd probably help if you opened it up and read the paper instead of just the tweet.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1137 on: July 30, 2018, 11:39:58 PM »
oh, you meant in the study.  it'd probably help if you opened it up and read the paper instead of just the tweet.
Good idea but behind a paywall. I honestly didn't realize France and the UK had significantly different views when it came to multiculturalist and colorblindness. Sounds interesting, I'll look into it.

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1138 on: July 30, 2018, 11:52:03 PM »
oh, you meant in the study.  it'd probably help if you opened it up and read the paper instead of just the tweet.
Good idea but behind a paywall. I honestly didn't realize France and the UK had significantly different views when it came to multiculturalist and colorblindness. Sounds interesting, I'll look into it.
This is a good read:

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/race-policy-in-france/

Quote
Political leaders are nonetheless aware that race and ethnicity matter. To counter problems of ethnic disadvantage, they have constructed policies aimed at geographical areas or at social classes that disproportionately contain large number of minorities. The Educational Priority Zones (ZEP) initiative, for example, funnels supplemental money to disadvantaged school districts, many of which contain elevated numbers of immigrant ethnic minorities and their children. However, politicians and policymakers have insisted that the goals of such policies are to better the lives of localities or of all people in need, and have avoided highlighting the racial and ethnic implications of their initiatives. So far, this has been relatively successful, in that there have been few outcries among whites against such policies, even though the far right National Front party (led by Jean-Marie Le Pen) has won many votes based on relatively widespread anti-immigrant sentiment.

French leaders have also dealt with the challenges of racial and ethnic pluralism through anti-racist laws and policies. The law of 1972 continues to form the foundation of France’s national institutions. I contains four principal elements. First, it bans hate speech, making racial defamation and provocation to racial hatred or violence punishable by criminal law. Second, it outlaws discrimination in employment and in provision of goods and services by public or private actors, also making these criminal offences. Third, it establishes provisions that allow the state to ban groups that seek to promote racism. Fourth, it institutionalized the legal role of non-governmental anti-racist associations as partners in fighting racism, permitting them to instigate and to take part in court cases of racism as “civil parties”—an official status that confers rights on associations-even when they have not been directly harmed.

Offline bubbles4ksu

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1139 on: August 02, 2018, 06:08:15 PM »
America's newspaper of record standing up for free speech





what the new york times lady actually only said:



Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1140 on: August 02, 2018, 06:34:00 PM »

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1141 on: August 02, 2018, 09:11:26 PM »
America's newspaper of record standing up for free speech


I'm not sure I understand. Is it not already well understood that "white people" are pretty much fair game for "racial" jokes, or do people just think that is a problem?

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1142 on: August 02, 2018, 09:22:16 PM »
i think the nyt response was appropriate.  same w. re. to the milwaukee brewers and their player.  and i thought it was inappropriate when the atlantic fired that one anti-abortion writer guy.

otoh, the crowd that standing o'd the baseball player and the dudes that were out saying the tweets were not just non-fireable but were actually good are dumbasses.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1144 on: August 02, 2018, 10:46:55 PM »
i think the nyt response was appropriate.  same w. re. to the milwaukee brewers and their player.  and i thought it was inappropriate when the atlantic fired that one anti-abortion writer guy.

otoh, the crowd that standing o'd the baseball player and the dudes that were out saying the tweets were not just non-fireable but were actually good are dumbasses.
#CancelWhitePeople made me laugh

Offline sys

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"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1147 on: August 03, 2018, 07:00:58 AM »
One other point of irony is she went after/celebrated Matt Bruenig getting fired for a tweet.

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1148 on: August 03, 2018, 09:03:19 AM »
One other point of irony is she went after/celebrated Matt Bruenig getting fired for a tweet.

she did that aids joke flight woman too.

people that know her all seem to like her tho.  afaik, i've never read anything she's written.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."