Author Topic: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look  (Read 138969 times)

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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1050 on: July 11, 2018, 09:58:33 AM »
Citizens United v. FEC

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/10/trump-supreme-court-nominee-brett-kavanaugh-net-neutrality-unlawful.html

Morse v Frederick

Arizona Free Enterprise Club's Freedom Club PAC v. Bennett

I mean there is lots of evidence this will continue to devolve.

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1051 on: July 11, 2018, 10:03:03 AM »
Citizens United v. FEC

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/10/trump-supreme-court-nominee-brett-kavanaugh-net-neutrality-unlawful.html

Morse v Frederick

Arizona Free Enterprise Club's Freedom Club PAC v. Bennett

I mean there is lots of evidence this will continue to devolve.

protecting the right of corporations to speak does not imply that the rights of corporations are considered more important than the rights of individuals.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline bucket

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1052 on: July 11, 2018, 11:10:15 AM »
Citizens United v. FEC

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/10/trump-supreme-court-nominee-brett-kavanaugh-net-neutrality-unlawful.html

Morse v Frederick

Arizona Free Enterprise Club's Freedom Club PAC v. Bennett

I mean there is lots of evidence this will continue to devolve.

protecting the right of corporations to speak does not imply that the rights of corporations are considered more important than the rights of individuals.

It certainly worked out that way.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1053 on: July 11, 2018, 11:20:41 AM »
Citizens United v. FEC

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/10/trump-supreme-court-nominee-brett-kavanaugh-net-neutrality-unlawful.html

Morse v Frederick

Arizona Free Enterprise Club's Freedom Club PAC v. Bennett

I mean there is lots of evidence this will continue to devolve.

protecting the right of corporations to speak does not imply that the rights of corporations are considered more important than the rights of individuals.

how incredibly naive. like I said, they aren't finished with this project.

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1054 on: July 11, 2018, 12:21:48 PM »
It certainly worked out that way.

no it hasn't.  and from what i've read gorsuch and kavanaugh are both likely to be pretty protective of free speech rights across the board, so if anything, it is likely the court will be expanding speech freedoms.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1055 on: July 11, 2018, 12:22:33 PM »
how incredibly naive. like I said, they aren't finished with this project.

 :rolleyes:
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline DQ12

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1056 on: July 11, 2018, 04:28:19 PM »
Morse v Frederick
Love the Morse v. Frederick case just because of the facts. "Bong hits 4 Jesus" is such a rebellious high schooler message.

Anyway I have no clue how you think that that case shows that the Court values corporations over individual speech.  The case involved a high school punishing a student for holding a banner that said "bong hits 4 jesus" during some parade or something.  I could go either way on the opinion (though I think they got it right), but i have no idea why you think that case involves corporations at all.


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Offline Spracne

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1057 on: July 11, 2018, 04:34:27 PM »
Just because the Court has in recent years expanded the scope corporations' First Amendment rights does not mean that those rights are superior to those of individuals. Data point to the contrary: Commercial speech enjoys a lower level of protection than individual speech.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1058 on: July 11, 2018, 04:56:17 PM »
Morse v Frederick
Love the Morse v. Frederick case just because of the facts. "Bong hits 4 Jesus" is such a rebellious high schooler message.

Anyway I have no clue how you think that that case shows that the Court values corporations over individual speech.  The case involved a high school punishing a student for holding a banner that said "bong hits 4 jesus" during some parade or something.  I could go either way on the opinion (though I think they got it right), but i have no idea why you think that case involves corporations at all.

I don think it involves corporations.


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Offline Kat Kid

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The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1059 on: July 11, 2018, 05:00:19 PM »
Just because the Court has in recent years expanded the scope corporations' First Amendment rights does not mean that those rights are superior to those of individuals. Data point to the contrary: Commercial speech enjoys a lower level of protection than individual speech.

I think Janus fits in here too as a perversion of free speech rights. It isn’t without some contrived nuance, we are talking about the Supreme Court here, but the big winners have been corporate interests at every turn. The Mcdonnel corruption case fits perfectly in here too, as the court not only views money as speech, they also view the bar to proving corruption as so high as to be almost impossible despite no one being able to look at our system and say corporate money does not play an enormous corrupting role in public policy. Trees for the forest and the bear is shitting over all of it.


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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1061 on: July 11, 2018, 06:33:13 PM »
Morse v Frederick
Love the Morse v. Frederick case just because of the facts. "Bong hits 4 Jesus" is such a rebellious high schooler message.

Anyway I have no clue how you think that that case shows that the Court values corporations over individual speech.  The case involved a high school punishing a student for holding a banner that said "bong hits 4 jesus" during some parade or something.  I could go either way on the opinion (though I think they got it right), but i have no idea why you think that case involves corporations at all.

I don think it involves corporations.


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Well you listed it in response to my question asking for examples of the Court valuing corporate speech over individuals' speech, so...

also, Janus didn't involve corporate speech at all.  corporations indirectly benefited, but it had nothing to do with corporations' speech.

You seem mostly frustrated with the effects of Citizens' United and the amount of money in politics.  That's a legitimate frustration, but i think that frustration is different than your original claim that the court values corporate speech over individual speech.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 06:42:58 PM by Dlew12 »


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Offline Spracne

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1062 on: July 11, 2018, 06:44:51 PM »
https://www.kansas.com/news/state/article214705000.html

Quote
“The disrespectful display of a desecrated American flag on the KU campus is absolutely unacceptable. Men and women have fought and bled for that flag and to use it in this manner is beyond disrespectful," Colyer said in a statement.

This crap right here is the kind of stuff that really puts a burr in my gruns. No one fought and bled for a piece of cloth. America is not a flag. Flag-worshiping is truly a bizarre behavior. Worse, it's a dangerous idea that can, in the aggregate, justify horrible behavior.

Offline Kat Kid

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The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1063 on: July 11, 2018, 07:01:01 PM »
Morse v Frederick
Love the Morse v. Frederick case just because of the facts. "Bong hits 4 Jesus" is such a rebellious high schooler message.

Anyway I have no clue how you think that that case shows that the Court values corporations over individual speech.  The case involved a high school punishing a student for holding a banner that said "bong hits 4 jesus" during some parade or something.  I could go either way on the opinion (though I think they got it right), but i have no idea why you think that case involves corporations at all.

I don think it involves corporations.


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Well you listed it in response to my question asking for examples of the Court valuing corporate speech over individuals' speech, so...

also, Janus didn't involve corporate speech at all.  corporations indirectly benefited, but it had nothing to do with corporations' speech.

You seem mostly frustrated with the effects of Citizens' United and the amount of money in politics.  That's a legitimate frustration, but i think that frustration is different than your original claim that the court values corporate speech over individual speech.

I listed it because it dealt with limiting individual speech.

Next, try re-reading your last paragraph and see if you can figure out how that relates.

Are you being this obtuse on purpose?


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Offline DQ12

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1064 on: July 11, 2018, 07:09:16 PM »
Morse v Frederick
Love the Morse v. Frederick case just because of the facts. "Bong hits 4 Jesus" is such a rebellious high schooler message.

Anyway I have no clue how you think that that case shows that the Court values corporations over individual speech.  The case involved a high school punishing a student for holding a banner that said "bong hits 4 jesus" during some parade or something.  I could go either way on the opinion (though I think they got it right), but i have no idea why you think that case involves corporations at all.

I don think it involves corporations.


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Well you listed it in response to my question asking for examples of the Court valuing corporate speech over individuals' speech, so...

also, Janus didn't involve corporate speech at all.  corporations indirectly benefited, but it had nothing to do with corporations' speech.

You seem mostly frustrated with the effects of Citizens' United and the amount of money in politics.  That's a legitimate frustration, but i think that frustration is different than your original claim that the court values corporate speech over individual speech.

I listed it because it dealt with limiting individual speech. Are you being this obtuse on purpose?


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No - I just don't understand how it's at all relevant.  maybe i misunderstood your point.  your original post made it sound like you thought recent jurisprudence was valuing corporate speech at the expense of individual speech. i was just confused as to how you thought janus fit into that zero sum game.

OTOH, if your post meant to show that (1) the court has recently placed an increased value on corporate speech; and (2) the court has treated individual speech mostly how it always has, then yeah - no argument from me on that one. 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 07:18:53 PM by Dlew12 »


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline Spracne

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1065 on: July 11, 2018, 07:24:36 PM »
Morse is a bad example. If you want to hang a "Bong hits for Jesus" banner on your home, the government can't punish you (though your HOA might). That case hinges on the fact that it was in a school setting, and even though the Court says that children don't surrender their rights at the schoolhouse door, they pretty much do, to a degree. As a matter or prudence, public school children can't have carte blanche to behave however they want and then raise the First Amendment as a shield simply because it's "expressive conduct."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1066 on: July 11, 2018, 10:14:44 PM »
Morse v Frederick
Love the Morse v. Frederick case just because of the facts. "Bong hits 4 Jesus" is such a rebellious high schooler message.

Anyway I have no clue how you think that that case shows that the Court values corporations over individual speech.  The case involved a high school punishing a student for holding a banner that said "bong hits 4 jesus" during some parade or something.  I could go either way on the opinion (though I think they got it right), but i have no idea why you think that case involves corporations at all.

I don think it involves corporations.


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Well you listed it in response to my question asking for examples of the Court valuing corporate speech over individuals' speech, so...

also, Janus didn't involve corporate speech at all.  corporations indirectly benefited, but it had nothing to do with corporations' speech.

You seem mostly frustrated with the effects of Citizens' United and the amount of money in politics.  That's a legitimate frustration, but i think that frustration is different than your original claim that the court values corporate speech over individual speech.

I listed it because it dealt with limiting individual speech. Are you being this obtuse on purpose?


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No - I just don't understand how it's at all relevant.  maybe i misunderstood your point.  your original post made it sound like you thought recent jurisprudence was valuing corporate speech at the expense of individual speech. i was just confused as to how you thought janus fit into that zero sum game.

OTOH, if your post meant to show that (1) the court has recently placed an increased value on corporate speech; and (2) the court has treated individual speech mostly how it always has, then yeah - no argument from me on that one.

I was basically making the second point, albeit noting the discrepancy between how much they’ve exploded vs what I saw as a pretty straightforward Tinker update.

Sorry for calling you an idiot.


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Offline sys

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"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."


Offline Spracne

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1070 on: July 12, 2018, 02:41:03 PM »
It's the left's equivalent of Kobach's giant machine gun

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1071 on: July 12, 2018, 04:02:18 PM »
https://www.thefire.org/kansas-officials-demand-university-of-kansas-remove-american-flag-artwork/

A good example of suppression of expression from the Right.

worth noting this example features the current governor and his top Republican challenger leveraging the power of the state to suppress free speech as opposed some college kids in a campus organization leveraging their voices to interrupt a speaker.

but #bothsides

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1072 on: July 12, 2018, 04:21:23 PM »
https://www.thefire.org/kansas-officials-demand-university-of-kansas-remove-american-flag-artwork/

A good example of suppression of expression from the Right.

worth noting this example features the current governor and his top Republican challenger leveraging the power of the state to suppress free speech as opposed some college kids in a campus organization leveraging their voices to interrupt a speaker.

but #bothsides
fwiw, I don't like this either fwiw.   


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Offline 8manpick

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Re: The Death of Free Speech: Uber PC'ism-A further look
« Reply #1073 on: July 12, 2018, 04:31:44 PM »
https://www.thefire.org/kansas-officials-demand-university-of-kansas-remove-american-flag-artwork/

A good example of suppression of expression from the Right.

worth noting this example features the current governor and his top Republican challenger leveraging the power of the state to suppress free speech as opposed some college kids in a campus organization leveraging their voices to interrupt a speaker.

but #bothsides
fwiw, I don't like this either fwiw.
I think it’s all a bunch of bunk
:adios:

Offline sys

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"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."