Author Topic: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs  (Read 5149 times)

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Offline WonderMeal

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In an effort to cope with the departure of #LiFE, I wanted to use statistics to compare him to other great KSU QBs so I knew exactly what we're losing. The answer? A lot.

TLDR Version: It's possible (likely?) that if Sams had been the full-time starter in 2013 that he would have been the best K-State QB in history by the end of 2015.

Out of 10 comparable seasons of modern KSU QBs, 2013 Daniel Sams had the highest completion percentage, and was 6th place in passing yds, 6th place YPA, 1st rushing yds, 1st in YPR, 3rd in QB rating.

By comparison, Waters was 3rd in completion percentage, 2nd in passing yds, 2nd in YPA, 10th in rushing yds, 10th in YPR, and 2nd in QB rating.

Methodology: Since #LiFE attempted 53 passes in 2013 and rushed 152 times, I used the historical averages of KSU QBs to determine what their effectiveness would have been if they had been given the exact same number of pass/rush attempts as Our Guy. Another way to say it: take each KSU QB's season and reducing their number of pass/rush attempts to the exact same number of opportunities Sams had last year.

Disclaimer: I am not _FAN, nor am I trying to be. He is the best, I am not. I recognize that the methodology used is not perfect. But given the information that Google provides and the amount of time I had, this is the best I could come up with. And I think this methodology is strong enough to develop real conclusions about what we're losing w/ Sams.

Why I did this: Like most of you who aren't total idiots, I had a sad when Sams announced he was transferring, but I wanted to be as objective as possible and try to determine what losing Sams (and not starting him in 2013) actually meant. I also wanted to try look at the Sams/Waters debate through an identical lens. (Obviously that's not totally possible, but this isn't a bad start.)

In the tables below, Our Guy will be highlighted in lavender, because he undoubtedly would look adorable in lavender. Go 'Cats.

Table 1: Statistics of Each KSU QB if they had been given the same opportunities as @DS4ms:




Table 2: Ranking each KSU QB season against each other in every statistical category:



Table 3: KSU QB season, by golf score
This one is obviously a little silly and is more for fun than anything else, but I wanted to see where Sams's 2013 season would rank if you added up all the overall rankings in Table 2, with the lowest score being the best season. (Like golf--lowest score wins.) How did Sams stack up? Pretty good! (Better than Waters.)



Sams vs. Waters:
Waters can move the ball better through the air (3rd in comp%, 2nd in yards passing, 2nd in YPA), whereas Sams is middle of the pack (1st in comp%, 6th in yards passing, 6th in YPA). No surprise.

The big difference comes on the ground. While Sams was a middle of the pack passer and is ranked #1 in both rush yards and YPR, Waters is 10th in rushing. Out of 10.

To put that another way: Sams is a good passer and elite runner. Waters is a great passer and the worst runner (compared to the other 9 seasons).

Conclusion:
Sams as a sophomore was a better rusher in the opportunities given him than any K-State QB ever (including all three of Roberson's season as a starter), and was a comparable passer to Bishop as a junior, or Klein and Beasley as seniors.

With his production last season and potential for growth over the next two years, I cannot believe we didn't start him full-time in 2013 and watch him lead us to back-to-back Dr. Pepps/Searses in 2014 and 2015. I had hoped that doing this analysis would help me get over Sams leaving, but it had just made me even more sad.

RIP, #LiFE. You are loved.



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« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 06:17:03 PM by WonderMeal »

Offline MixBerryCrunch

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2014, 08:00:27 AM »
Great. Now do turnovers; which is probably the most imporant stat to HCBS.
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Offline steve dave

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2014, 08:13:05 AM »
now do marc dunn if marc dunn had tyler lockett to throw to. also marc dunn loves iowa state and has hairy arms in this scenario.

Offline SPEmaw

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2014, 09:43:10 AM »
now do marc dunn if marc dunn had tyler lockett to throw to. also marc dunn loves iowa state and has hairy arms in this scenario.

Both Dunn and Ell were crap QB's in 2001. Our leading receiever was certified stud Aaron Lockett and he only gained 357 rec yards on the season. I'm not sure having TLBL, Jordy, or even Calvin Johnson would've done much for that team's passing game.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/kansas-state/2001.html#all_rushing_and_receiving

The next season Dunn and ER combined for a whopping 1,900+ yards through the air. I know you guys don't like Waters but there's not much overlap between him and Dunn.
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Offline Ghost of Stan Parrish

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2014, 10:15:17 AM »
 :redX:

Am I the only one who can't see the charts?

Also curious about turnovers.
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Offline the_ugly_clown

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2014, 10:32:18 AM »
:redX:

Am I the only one who can't see the charts?

Also curious about turnovers.

i cant see them either!!! and i really want to.

Offline puniraptor

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2014, 10:35:07 AM »
i'm pretty sure nobody can see them, but everybody was too embarrassed to admit it because they thought they were probably the only one

Offline Bqqkie Pimp

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2014, 11:29:30 AM »
:redX:

Am I the only one who can't see the charts?

Also curious about turnovers.

bears are fast...

Offline EMAWmeister

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2014, 11:48:37 AM »
Looks like WonderMeal closed the eff out of this case, FanMan

Offline ArchE_Cat

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2014, 12:08:13 PM »
turnovers, time of possession, average drive length, starting field position, and I could go on and on.

I think (hope) Snyder has finally come to realize that your QB can't be your only weapon that you turn into 'sketi brains and thus ruin your chance at a title game appearance. You need a healthy stud QB all season long and multiple offensive threats. Klein was a great power runner and learned to to an efficient passer. Baylor tho. Waters is a great passer and will learn to be an efficient runner. This works as long as you have enough other threats. Sams great runner, maybe on his way to being efficient enough as a passer.

Offline SPEmaw

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2014, 12:42:08 PM »
:redX:

Am I the only one who can't see the charts?

Also curious about turnovers.

i cant see them either!!! and i really want to.


me either. I assumed it was because I'm at work...but it looks like many are having issues. I WANT TO SEE! I WANT TO SEE!
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Offline puniraptor

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2014, 12:47:09 PM »
the truth is that he actually didnt make any charts and he intentionally put broken image links in there so we would think that he had made charts too beautiful to even view

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2014, 01:40:41 PM »
Sams being routinely subbed out on 3rd and longs most likely helped his passing numbers quite a bit.

Offline SPEmaw

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2014, 01:45:43 PM »
Sams being routinely subbed out on 3rd and longs most likely helped his passing numbers quite a bit.

careful, man. that's sounding pretty racisty*

*sarcasm
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Offline Asteriskhead

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2014, 03:56:23 PM »
I mean, I'm one of the biggest Daniel homers on this board, but do you know nothing of how sample size affects statistics?

Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2014, 04:07:17 PM »
I mean, I'm one of the biggest Daniel homers on this board, but do you know nothing of how sample size affects statistics?

Ok, if we were to put a lot (the appropriate amount) of emphasis on sample size, we'd only get to talk about like 0.2% of the statistics we talk about. 

Offline WonderMeal

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2014, 06:56:57 PM »
Sorry about the images--I could see the images at home and at work, so I'm not sure what's going on. I've updated the original post to include photobucket links, so hopefully that will work? Let me know if it doesn't.

To address some other points that have been raised:

Like ArchE and ChiCat mentioned, there are a lot of other stat comparisons that I would like to include (TOP first among them--especially since I remember some crazy stat like Sams never having a 3-and-out), but there wasn't a lot of easily-available historical info on Google. I'll leave that to @ksu_FAN and his databases. But to address @ChiCat's point about Sams being taken out on a lot of 3rd downs--you also have to remember that Lockett wasn't available for something like 58% of his passing attempts, so that obviously affected his passing numbers as well.

I left passing TDs, rushing TDs, and turnovers off on purpose, for a few reasons. First, time. Second, pretty much all the QBs listed in the comparison had the benefit of playing four cupcakes and bottom-feeder conference teams, whereas the bulk of Sams's playing time came against teams that went to the Cotton and Fiesta bowls. (Would Sams have had 3 TDs and 3 INTs if he had played the whole game against UMass? Maybe, but I doubt it.) So the level of competition is unfairly biased against Sams. Third, turnovers and TDs are a little more random than things like YPA--especially in such a limited sample size. I think most people assume that Sams's real or perceived propensity to turn the ball over is a big reason why Waters started, and I don't doubt that. But if he had been given an entire season at QB against studs and cupcakes alike, I bet #LiFE's TD/INT numbers would look a lot more like Ell/Bishop/Klein. If one of you wants to run the numbers, go for it.


And to address @Metalhead's comment--no, I have never heard about how sample size affects statistics. Interesting, if true.

And regardless of what the actual p-value is for all of these numbers, I think we can safely draw this conclusion by looking at the stats: given where he was as a sophomore, had Sams progressed similar to other KSU QBs (which I think is a safe assumption, given his work ethic/EMAW/studliness), he would have left campus as one of our top two or three QBs of all time. And to think we threw that possibility away so we could go to the BWW Bowl this year instead of the Holiday bowl really hurts.

Offline chum1

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2014, 07:48:28 PM »
I think randomness is more of an issue than sample size.  For example, I don't know of a reason not to think that Sams wasn't mostly used in situations that the coaches thought were best suited to his abilities.  So, I have a hard time thinking that we can simply extrapolate his stats to full seasons.  Isn't this sort of concern an issue with stats for backups in general?

Offline SPEmaw

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2014, 09:57:39 PM »
Table 2: Ranking each KSU QB season against each other in every statistical category:



So, out of a group of known dual threats, you concluded that arguably the most prolific passer of the bunch, in his first season D1 football, was the worst runner of the sample? Man, did you major in statistics? Because that is profound stuff. Tom Brady would be 11th on the list if you included him. Does that make him a worse QB than Daniel Sams or any of those guys? Come on, man.
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Offline Ghost of Stan Parrish

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2014, 10:15:59 PM »
hey, wondermeal, thanks for the charts.  Do they prove your argument?  I couldn't say, but I appreciate your time.

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Online wetwillie

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2014, 10:25:57 PM »
Good job good effort wondermeal
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Offline SPEmaw

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2014, 10:27:18 PM »
hey, wondermeal, thanks for the charts.  Do they prove your argument?  I couldn't say, but I appreciate your time.

#1cat

Yeah, thanks for putting it together. Just seems like comparing apples to a glass of water.
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Offline bones129

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2014, 10:28:02 PM »
hey, wondermeal, thanks for the charts.  Do they prove your argument?  I couldn't say, but I appreciate your time.

#1cat

Agree completely. (BTW, that was a very nice thing to say.)

Offline Steffy08

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2014, 06:43:49 AM »
I don't think you can assume that any qb will progress like our others.  The previous progressions were the result of lots of time in film room, which I heard SAMs was not putting in.  I think the reason he is no longer here is mixed in with the reason that we can't assume a progression like previous qb's.

I wish he would never have moved to wr.  It was crazy to think he would've been able to quickly rise to top of depth chart against more experienced guys. Plus, for a guy who ran the ball some 30 times against bu, I don't think he was ever going to be happy catching 3 passes a game.  We should've kept developing a package for him to run at qb for 1-2 series per game.

Offline puniraptor

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Re: Numbers Don't Lie: Comparing Sams to Historic KSU EMAW QBs
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2014, 06:51:10 AM »
:barf: