Author Topic: interesting figure (i assume true)  (Read 6188 times)

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Offline sys

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interesting figure (i assume true)
« on: September 01, 2013, 06:23:58 PM »


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"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline CNS

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2013, 06:42:42 PM »
I apologize for dragging the avg productivity up so and thus ruining the graph, guys.

Offline star seed 7

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2013, 06:58:56 PM »
I've seen the same information on multiple different graphs, so I think it must be accurate, sys.  Also interesting.
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Offline CNS

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2013, 07:08:42 PM »
It has to have been like super easy to dominant competitors faces off in the '60's and '70's.  Like child's play.

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Offline sys

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2013, 08:31:50 PM »
i don't really have any coherent thoughts on fixing the problem, but i think it is probably the most important near-term issue to "fixing" america, and maybe mature economies in general.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline CNS

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2013, 08:41:05 PM »
Would love to see comparos to other countries.

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Offline Rams

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2013, 08:55:09 PM »
I guess I'm not terribly surprised that productivity is increasing at a greater rate than real hourly compensation. I would assume advances in technology would account for that.  I am, however, baffled by the absolute flatline of compensation on or around 1978. WTF?
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Offline sys

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2013, 08:59:47 PM »
I guess I'm not terribly surprised that productivity is increasing at a greater rate than real hourly compensation. I would assume advances in technology would account for that.  I am, however, baffled by the absolute flatline of compensation on or around 1978. WTF?

yeah, i assume it's mostly technology, maybe a little bit outsourcing.  either way (or combining both), labor lost the ability to price itself.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline CNS

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2013, 09:00:43 PM »
I don't believe the flat line of compensation unless this graph is strictly blue collar work.

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Offline Rams

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2013, 09:06:20 PM »
I guess I'm not terribly surprised that productivity is increasing at a greater rate than real hourly compensation. I would assume advances in technology would account for that.  I am, however, baffled by the absolute flatline of compensation on or around 1978. WTF?

yeah, i assume it's mostly technology, maybe a little bit outsourcing.  either way (or combining both), labor lost the ability to price itself.
I mean I would expect to see ever widening lines back as far as you want to go. I really want to know what happened in '78.
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Offline sys

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2013, 10:19:59 PM »
I mean I would expect to see ever widening lines back as far as you want to go. I really want to know what happened in '78.

why?  keep in mind that from this graph, you have no idea of the correlation before 1948.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2013, 11:32:01 AM »
Too many unskilled workers competing for entry level jobs. 

Offline Big Sam

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2013, 11:54:23 AM »
Depends on how you are measuring productivity, and one must also consider the role of technology.

The reality compensation won't keep up.  The U.S. was the industrial power of the world following WWII (other nations devastated, and as time past even third world industrializes due to cheaper costs) and could pay workers big time.

Competition has changed the game.

Mix in the influx of low-education/low-sill workers in an increasingly high tech U.S. market, which in turn undermine wages for low-education/low-skill domestic workers (those that for whatever reason reject or leave education) and wages will go down while the push for higher productivity will continue.

No way to really fix it at a societal level - only people can fix it at their individual levels.  There are some things you could do to ameliorate it (reduce immigration inflow, drastically alter the anti-education subculture that permeates the U.S.), but I don't see the political or cultural will to do such things.

Offline OregonSmock

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2013, 01:32:35 PM »



Improvements in technology and increased competition through globalization have had a huge impact on median wages, but there are also other factors at play here.  Union membership has been steadily declining since the 1980's, which has had a negative effect on median wages.  Income inequality continues to grow, as more and more wealth is allocated to those in the top income brackets.  A relatively high unemployment rate has also kept wages low, as more and more people are willing to work for less (since there aren't as many good jobs out there these days).  The anti-liberal movement out there will blame everything on "socialism" and Obama, but the truth is that there's enough blame to go around for everyone. 

Offline Tobias

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2013, 03:55:31 PM »
is 1978 the lead paint cutoff or the unprotected homosexual sex cutoff?  conspiracies....

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2013, 04:57:14 PM »
is 1978 the lead paint cutoff or the unprotected homosexual sex cutoff?  conspiracies....


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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2013, 08:55:19 PM »
I think if you found a graph of the avg CEO pay vs avg pay of workforce it mimics that graph and I think does so right around the same time frame.  CEO's went fom like making 20x more than the avg worker in 1965 to 231x  in 2011.

Offline michigancat

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2013, 09:05:14 PM »
Are we sure that's just for the US? I am also curious what happened in 1978.

Offline sys

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2013, 10:31:34 PM »
i'm sure that the source i got it from portrayed it as displaying data from the us.  i am not sure that the underlying data are as claimed, but i have no particular reason to doubt it.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline michigancat

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2013, 10:55:38 PM »
i'm sure that the source i got it from portrayed it as displaying data from the us.  i am not sure that the underlying data are as claimed, but i have no particular reason to doubt it.

Ask them if they have other countries and more years and worldwide totals, too.

Offline sys

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2013, 11:03:21 PM »
Ask them if they have other countries and more years and worldwide totals, too.

i think you should maybe just try googling.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline michigancat

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2013, 11:08:49 PM »
Ask them if they have other countries and more years and worldwide totals, too.

i think you should maybe just try googling.

eh, I've been on my phone

Offline ben ji

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2013, 11:20:28 PM »
Are we sure that's just for the US? I am also curious what happened in 1978.

Just spitballing here but the early 80's is when china first opened up to western companies.

Without doing any research I would guess that most the middle class blue collar manufacturing jobs started moving overseas and that white collar jobs did not increase enough to offset the loss of these jobs.

Is there a graph showing a comparison of white collar to blue collar?

Offline sys

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2013, 12:01:58 AM »
i think it's more about tech.  and i don't think it was some 1978 event.

like if a capitalist uses capital to buy a robot that can make 2x the sewing machines his worker controlled machinery used to, does it follow that he's going to pay his workers 2x to run the robot?  especially if he can now downsize his staff by half.

same with white collar labor and computers, software, etc.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline michigancat

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Re: interesting figure (i assume true)
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2013, 12:07:18 AM »


This one seems to make a little more sense to me. Your graph showed productivity rising at a constant rate, while this one seems to see a sharper increase around 1995 (around the time of the internet becoming much more common in the workplace?)