Author Topic: Let's Chat About the Merits & Deficiencies of College Athletes' Amateur Status  (Read 12501 times)

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Offline EMAWmeister

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bottom line is no one forces these kids to do anything. signing a letter of intent is their decision, and in that letter of intent they agree to the terms of being a student athlete in the NCAA. if johnny manziel went to a&m  and was the worst player in history, never saw the field in 5 years, could the NCAA/A&M ask him to pay back everything he had been given because he provided no economic benefit for the university/NCAA?

Yes, they can revoke his scholly after every season.

Offline michigancat

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Bill took away Ell's scholarship for his last semester in one of the biggest dick moves in history.

Offline DQ12

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Bill took away Ell's scholarship for his last semester in one of the biggest dick moves in history.
Yes.  Very mean of Bill.

Yanking scholarships should have to be "for cause" and should have independent review.


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Offline 'taterblast

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Bill took away Ell's scholarship for his last semester in one of the biggest dick moves in history.

because of misconduct. that's not really a part of this discussion.

Offline EMAWmeister

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I don't think every NCAA athlete should be paid revenues from game tickets or TV revenue.  You can easily argue that everyone tuning in/going to the games is doing so because of the institution.  But the individual athletes that are being exploited are getting so unbelievably mumped.

Offline timhawk

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If I could have played for K-State I would have done so in a heartbeat. I don't think they should get paid, but I believe the coaches making crap tons of money feel guilty as hell. Give them a few grand to pay for rent and expenses.

dude they get room and board paid plus all their schooling...plus lots of clothes from Nike/Adidas/etc...I don't want them to get paid because it'll turn out to highest bidder and bunch if whiny babies like the NFL.
everyone is jealous

Offline michigancat

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Bill took away Ell's scholarship for his last semester in one of the biggest dick moves in history.

because of misconduct. that's not really a part of this discussion.

It's an example of the ridiculous imbalance if power and how it can be abused under the current system.

Offline 'taterblast

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Bill took away Ell's scholarship for his last semester in one of the biggest dick moves in history.

because of misconduct. that's not really a part of this discussion.

It's an example of the ridiculous imbalance if power and how it can be abused under the current system.

 what in the hell? how?

Offline Kat Kid

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People arguing that players should just go to the CFL or whatever are right in the sense that players can "opt out" of the current system.  But their position ignores the enormous, uncompetitive barriers put in place specifically by the pro leagues to control salaries.  I don't know much about the history of the anti-trust suits against these professional leagues but the arrangements seem horribly one-sided and prevent players from entering and competing in a marketplace.

I think a lot of the problems with the NCAA that Bilas seems to have, would be criticisms better levied against the NBA's absurd 1 and done policy and the NFL's absurd 3 year rule.  Baseball has its own problems (luxury tax, hard slotting of salaries in the draft, their international budget and the push for a world draft) and is getting worse in terms of uncompetitive moves by owners to stifle potential player earnings.  But the H.S. OR 3 years of college with the teams responsible for funding and maintaining their own minor league systems is a much better model.  The NBA could easily do this by expanding their D-League structure.

The NFL is a bit harder and NCAA football is much more entrenched and the money/infrastructure involved is much more likely to prevent a seamless move to the MLB model.  But the NFL partnering with the BCS-AQ conferences seems like something to explore.  Unfortunately, between the O'Bannon/NCAA lawsuit and the NFL's concussion lawsuit this may not be a good time to potentially put a bunch of assets on the books in some kind of merger.

Offline DQ12

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People arguing that players should just go to the CFL or whatever are right in the sense that players can "opt out" of the current system.  But their position ignores the enormous, uncompetitive barriers put in place specifically by the pro leagues to control salaries.  I don't know much about the history of the anti-trust suits against these professional leagues but the arrangements seem horribly one-sided and prevent players from entering and competing in a marketplace.

I think a lot of the problems with the NCAA that Bilas seems to have, would be criticisms better levied against the NBA's absurd 1 and done policy and the NFL's absurd 3 year rule.  Baseball has its own problems (luxury tax, hard slotting of salaries in the draft, their international budget and the push for a world draft) and is getting worse in terms of uncompetitive moves by owners to stifle potential player earnings.  But the H.S. OR 3 years of college with the teams responsible for funding and maintaining their own minor league systems is a much better model.  The NBA could easily do this by expanding their D-League structure.

The NFL is a bit harder and NCAA football is much more entrenched and the money/infrastructure involved is much more likely to prevent a seamless move to the MLB model.  But the NFL partnering with the BCS-AQ conferences seems like something to explore.  Unfortunately, between the O'Bannon/NCAA lawsuit and the NFL's concussion lawsuit this may not be a good time to potentially put a bunch of assets on the books in some kind of merger.
:thumbs:

I take no issue with players leaving early for the pros or bypassing the whole college process to enter the pros.  I think it's messed up for a fan to have the mentality of "No you can't leave early because then everyone will leave early and that will dilute my college football viewing experience."  Now having said that, I say let the kids take their shot in either an NFL minor league (which is unlikely to happen because the NFL wants to save bucks) or alternatively, let them go to the big boy league if that's what they want to do.

I think it's obvious why the NFL would not be in favor of this, for the reasons you mentioned above, but that, to me, seems like it's not the NCAA's problem.  The NCAA, in and of itself, has a system set up that affords high school graduates to choose to go to college for free (with other benefits) in return for playing college football and promoting the college football team.  That just does not seem like exploitation to me.  When the spotlight is directed at the NFL, it does ("you're not old enough to choose to play because we can't really afford it").

Thoughts KK?  Have I missed the mark?


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Offline Ira Hayes

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Talking about the pros misses the point. It's the guys like Tebow, Klein, Crouch, Huepel, Applewhite, and probably Manziel who make millions and millions for their schools but can't make it in the pros who are getting screwed.

Offline Mixed-Nutz

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Talking about the pros misses the point. It's the guys like Tebow, Klein, Crouch, Huepel, Applewhite, and probably Manziel who make millions and millions for their schools but can't make it in the pros who are getting screwed.
Counter to that would be with out the current NCAA systems the market won't exist for these player to produce millions of dollars for their institutions in the first place.

Offline Skipper44

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 the D  league and  minor league baseball are evidence of the apathy sports fans have for 2nd tier pro sports.  The billions being made by BCS  schools has more to do with the schools than the players.

Offline DQ12

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Talking about the pros misses the point. It's the guys like Tebow, Klein, Crouch, Huepel, Applewhite, and probably Manziel who make millions and millions for their schools but can't make it in the pros who are getting screwed.
people keep throwing this "getting screwed" phrase around as if these guys didn't decide on their own accord to play college sports.


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Offline Spracne

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Talking about the pros misses the point. It's the guys like Tebow, Klein, Crouch, Huepel, Applewhite, and probably Manziel who make millions and millions for their schools but can't make it in the pros who are getting screwed.

Just to play devil's advocate... These guys have the opportunity to get hired in a millisecond for a 6 figure salary by wealthy alums of their respective universities.  Todd Reesing is (or was? maybe not anymore) working for Dimensional Fund Advisors (The investment firm owned by KU alum and Naismith rules purchaser David Booth).
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Offline Ira Hayes

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Talking about the pros misses the point. It's the guys like Tebow, Klein, Crouch, Huepel, Applewhite, and probably Manziel who make millions and millions for their schools but can't make it in the pros who are getting screwed.
Counter to that would be with out the current NCAA systems the market won't exist for these player to produce millions of dollars for their institutions in the first place.
How so? The NCAA doesn't run college football. They just get hired to set the rules.

Offline yoman

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Talking about the pros misses the point. It's the guys like Tebow, Klein, Crouch, Huepel, Applewhite, and probably Manziel who make millions and millions for their schools but can't make it in the pros who are getting screwed.
people keep throwing this "getting screwed" phrase around as if these guys didn't decide on their own accord to play college sports.

Realistically, there is no other option. The path to the NFL, which the majority of these players believe they are on (I am aware that many aren't), runs through college athletics for the most part.

The most logical solution I have seen so far is for players in all sports to be compensated for their media participation.  The compensation can be comission based. You don't destroy the system, and the players who are making money for the university get paid accordingly. This should pass Title IX because all athletes are paid the same percentage commission, shouldn't it?

Offline Ira Hayes

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the D  league and  minor league baseball are evidence of the apathy sports fans have for 2nd tier pro sports.  The billions being made by BCS  schools has more to do with the schools than the players.

A&M made a whole lot more money winning with Johnny Manziel then they made the year before when they were losing with Ryan Tannehill. You might remember that Tannehill was the eighth pick in the NFL draft, started 15 games last year for the Dolphins, and will make millions.

Does that have more to do with the school or more to do with having a player who is better suited to the college game?

Offline Ira Hayes

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Talking about the pros misses the point. It's the guys like Tebow, Klein, Crouch, Huepel, Applewhite, and probably Manziel who make millions and millions for their schools but can't make it in the pros who are getting screwed.
people keep throwing this "getting screwed" phrase around as if these guys didn't decide on their own accord to play college sports.

They don't have a choice. They can't play in the NFL and the other options are not better.

You can throw out the CFL as an option, but CFL teams would kill to have the kind of money that BCS schools make from football. It's not close.

Offline michigancat

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I think it's obvious why the NFL would not be in favor of this, for the reasons you mentioned above, but that, to me, seems like it's not the NCAA's problem.  The NCAA, in and of itself, has a system set up that affords high school graduates to choose to go to college for free (with other benefits) in return for playing college football and promoting the college football team.  That just does not seem like exploitation to me.  When the spotlight is directed at the NFL, it does ("you're not old enough to choose to play because we can't really afford it").

If the players aren't being exploited, not much would change if the market were opened up, correct?

Offline EMAWmeister

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How much (if any?) does this have to do with the increased role/talent of freshmen/first year players? It was never a problem when the superstars had essentially exhausted their eligibility.

Offline Ira Hayes

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Talking about the pros misses the point. It's the guys like Tebow, Klein, Crouch, Huepel, Applewhite, and probably Manziel who make millions and millions for their schools but can't make it in the pros who are getting screwed.

Just to play devil's advocate... These guys have the opportunity to get hired in a millisecond for a 6 figure salary by wealthy alums of their respective universities.  Todd Reesing is (or was? maybe not anymore) working for Dimensional Fund Advisors (The investment firm owned by KU alum and Naismith rules purchaser David Booth).

Most of the rich KU boosters end up in federal prison.

Offline DQ12

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If the players aren't being exploited, not much would change if the market were opened up, correct?
In the post you quoted, I acknowledged that the players may be being exploited, but if they were, it seems like it's the NFL exploiting them in the ways KK brought up. 

I'm all for the market being opened up in some capacity, but I don't think that's the NCAA's or colleges' role.


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Offline michigancat

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How much (if any?) does this have to do with the increased role/talent of freshmen/first year players? It was never a problem when the superstars had essentially exhausted their eligibility.

It has more to do with the size of athletic department and NCAA budgets.

Offline Spracne

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Talking about the pros misses the point. It's the guys like Tebow, Klein, Crouch, Huepel, Applewhite, and probably Manziel who make millions and millions for their schools but can't make it in the pros who are getting screwed.

Just to play devil's advocate... These guys have the opportunity to get hired in a millisecond for a 6 figure salary by wealthy alums of their respective universities.  Todd Reesing is (or was? maybe not anymore) working for Dimensional Fund Advisors (The investment firm owned by KU alum and Naismith rules purchaser David Booth).

Most of the rich KU boosters end up in federal prison.

 :clac:
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