If the US didn't exist (physically), what country would you choose to live in?

[Rams]

I'm changing my answer to costa rica.

but not cause any of you made me dislike Italy.  just because I think costa rica would be badass.

[Kat Kid]

re: italians being racist.

http://gawker.com/fashions-elite-got-good-and-blackfaced-at-a-party-in-m-1453039552

[Dr Rick Daris]

italians are the worst. just the rough ridin' worst.

[Trim]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/entertainment/2013/10/julianne-hough-apologizes-for-donning-blackface/

[chum1]

Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?

[HerrSonntag]

I've always thought Chile would be pretty kickass.  I've been to Germany a few times and always liked it, but its more of a nice place to visit...

[bubbles4ksu]

Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?

yes. on opposite day.

[Dugout DickStone]

The smartest Italians in the world were the cast of Jersey Shore.  Who knew?

[FunruhCat76]

Austria... there's no question.

[Asteriskhead]

Austria... there's no question.

i think you can get those little sausages in more than two countries, if you were basing your choice on the availability of those things. like, they probably aren't even made in vienna. i'd bet they are available wherever people eat gross meat out of tin cans.

[Kat Kid]

Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?

Not to revisit the entire meta debate, but sys conceded that a number of the examples of European's actions were racist in effect, but just had a different historical context.  He specifically called out Northern Italy. 

a)  italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).

Even more contrarian than sys or rusty!  Congrats!

[chum1]

Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?

Not to revisit the entire meta debate, but sys conceded that a number of the examples of European's actions were racist in effect, but just had a different historical context.  He specifically called out Northern Italy. 

a)  italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).

Even more contrarian than sys or rusty!  Congrats!

I don't think Italians have the same reaction to this as Americans, but it's hard for me to believe that's because they're all racist wackos.  I had an Northern Italian acquaintance who I really don't think was racist, but also probably wouldn't stop to think that there might be something wrong with this.  I don't think that's inconsistent given the differences in our socities or understand why it couldn't be the norm for Italians.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Why are some people using language as some kind of criteria? Everyone speaks English, guys.

[Rage Against the McKee]

The smartest Italians in the world were the cast of Jersey Shore.  Who knew?

They used to rule almost the entire world. Thank God we weren't around to see that.

[Kat Kid]

Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?

Not to revisit the entire meta debate, but sys conceded that a number of the examples of European's actions were racist in effect, but just had a different historical context.  He specifically called out Northern Italy. 

a)  italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).

Even more contrarian than sys or rusty!  Congrats!

I don't think Italians have the same reaction to this as Americans, but it's hard for me to believe that's because they're all racist wackos.  I had an Northern Italian acquaintance who I really don't think was racist, but also probably wouldn't stop to think that there might be something wrong with this.  I don't think that's inconsistent given the differences in our socities or understand why it couldn't be the norm for Italians.

Do we really have to revisit the definition of racism?  Or is America's civil war and lack of a "nation state" sufficient to ignore that inconvenient definition?

[Dugout DickStone]

The smartest Italians in the world were the cast of Jersey Shore.  Who knew?

They used to rule almost the entire world. Thank God we weren't around to see that.

For like a week.

[chum1]

Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?

Not to revisit the entire meta debate, but sys conceded that a number of the examples of European's actions were racist in effect, but just had a different historical context.  He specifically called out Northern Italy. 

a)  italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).

Even more contrarian than sys or rusty!  Congrats!

I don't think Italians have the same reaction to this as Americans, but it's hard for me to believe that's because they're all racist wackos.  I had an Northern Italian acquaintance who I really don't think was racist, but also probably wouldn't stop to think that there might be something wrong with this.  I don't think that's inconsistent given the differences in our socities or understand why it couldn't be the norm for Italians.

Do we really have to revisit the definition of racism?  Or is America's civil war and lack of a "nation state" sufficient to ignore that inconvenient definition?

Going by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism, isn't there plenty of room for a distinction between something that's racial in nature and offensive and something that's racist?  Suppose someone comes from a place where the language is identical to English with the exception that the word "black" does not exist, and instead the n-word is used in its place.  So, for example, instead of saying "black cat," one would say "n-word cat."  If someone from outside of this place hears a person from this place say the n-word, does it then necessarily follow that this person is racist?

[bubbles4ksu]

Going by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism, isn't there plenty of room for a distinction between something that's racial in nature and offensive and something that's racist?  Suppose someone comes from a place where the language is identical to English with the exception that the word "black" does not exist, and instead the n-word is used in its place.  So, for example, instead of saying "black cat," one would say "n-word cat."  If someone from outside of this place hears a person from this place say the n-word, does it then necessarily follow that this person is racist?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284754/Inter-Milan-fined-43-000-Serie-A-Mario-Balotelli-racist-abuse.html

seems racist and not merely racial in nature and offensive.

[star seed 7]

Going by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism, isn't there plenty of room for a distinction between something that's racial in nature and offensive and something that's racist?  Suppose someone comes from a place where the language is identical to English with the exception that the word "black" does not exist, and instead the n-word is used in its place.  So, for example, instead of saying "black cat," one would say "n-word cat."  If someone from outside of this place hears a person from this place say the n-word, does it then necessarily follow that this person is racist?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284754/Inter-Milan-fined-43-000-Serie-A-Mario-Balotelli-racist-abuse.html

seems racist and not merely racial in nature and offensive.

Sounds like 1980's ahearn field house

[bubbles4ksu]

Cultural backwater from a generation and a half ago vs. Olympic city that is home to The Last Supper.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chum1]

Cultural backwater from a generation and a half ago vs. Olympic city that is home to The Last Supper.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Italy: racist.  U.S.: not racist.  Aren't we lucky!?

[Kat Kid]

Doesn't that link referencing the Italian party just reinforce sys's point that Americans obsess over black and white way more than Europeans?

Not to revisit the entire meta debate, but sys conceded that a number of the examples of European's actions were racist in effect, but just had a different historical context.  He specifically called out Northern Italy. 

a)  italy is on an island in terms of unrepentantism re. public racism (although, it's still entirely unfair to paint the northern wackos as representative of the country as a whole).

Even more contrarian than sys or rusty!  Congrats!

I don't think Italians have the same reaction to this as Americans, but it's hard for me to believe that's because they're all racist wackos.  I had an Northern Italian acquaintance who I really don't think was racist, but also probably wouldn't stop to think that there might be something wrong with this.  I don't think that's inconsistent given the differences in our socities or understand why it couldn't be the norm for Italians.

Do we really have to revisit the definition of racism?  Or is America's civil war and lack of a "nation state" sufficient to ignore that inconvenient definition?

Going by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism, isn't there plenty of room for a distinction between something that's racial in nature and offensive and something that's racist?  Suppose someone comes from a place where the language is identical to English with the exception that the word "black" does not exist, and instead the n-word is used in its place.  So, for example, instead of saying "black cat," one would say "n-word cat."  If someone from outside of this place hears a person from this place say the n-word, does it then necessarily follow that this person is racist?

Your first statement is much stronger than your example given.  If you really think that the examples previously provided, and reiterated below, aren't racism but are simply "racial" or "race-ish" then I don't know how to continue.

Three other responses:

1)  It might be more helpful to use actual examples before we change the subject to hypotheticals.  Since you brought up animals, the insults below are racist cliches that are clearly global, despite what some racists say post-hoc.:

Italy
exhibit A:  http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/08/cecile-kyenge-quest-for-tolerance
exhibit B:  http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/13/racism-mario-balotelli-kevin-prince-boateng-italy

Spain
exhibit C:  http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/08/spain.sport

2)  Your specific example: There is an enormous difference between calling your cat or dog negrito and calling a person that.

3)  I am genuinely curious as to how anyone can genuinely believe that: large groups of people, in public, regularly use racist language against black people, causing emotional harm to their victims, and yet don't realize this is the effect of their actions. 

[Kat Kid]

Going by http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism, isn't there plenty of room for a distinction between something that's racial in nature and offensive and something that's racist?  Suppose someone comes from a place where the language is identical to English with the exception that the word "black" does not exist, and instead the n-word is used in its place.  So, for example, instead of saying "black cat," one would say "n-word cat."  If someone from outside of this place hears a person from this place say the n-word, does it then necessarily follow that this person is racist?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284754/Inter-Milan-fined-43-000-Serie-A-Mario-Balotelli-racist-abuse.html

seems racist and not merely racial in nature and offensive.

Sounds like 1980's ahearn field house

Someone is catching on!

[Kat Kid]

Cultural backwater from a generation and a half ago vs. Olympic city that is home to The Last Supper.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Italy: racist.  U.S.: not racist.  Aren't we lucky!?

Is context important to this discussion or not?

[chum1]

I'm sure those are fine examples of racism.  I guess I'm thinking about three things here.

1.  How strong is the correlation between the examples and the racism attributable to the average Italian - the people we would ordinarily encounter if we chose to live in Italy?  After all, we can probably find examples of racism in other countries, yet we have singled out Italy here in this thread.

Maybe I misread sys, but I found much of what he was saying to be reminiscent of things I've heard from European people who have essentially told me, "Hey, look.  We don't care about the same things you do.  We don't understand why you make such a big fuss over this stuff."  This led me to earlier wonder about a couple of things.

2.  Maybe the wrongness of casual acceptance of certain sorts of racism by the average Italian just isn't as absolute as the wrongness of, say, cold blooded murder. 

3.  Or maybe it is, but maybe there are cases (similar in kind to the black cat example) in which people with different backgrounds view the same sets of circumstances from different perspectives and, consequently, make different judgments about them.

I'm not arguing one way or another here, but I do believe these things are worth considering - especially given our perceived tendency as Americans to be a bit egocentric.