Author Topic: Stand Your Ground Laws  (Read 17320 times)

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Offline HeinBallz

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Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2013, 07:50:38 PM »
I don't see why people have an issue with individuals having the legal authority to defend themselves, yet have no fear of a police force being corrupt?  I understand the lack of trust of some gun toting arm chair commando - I get that; how do people not mistrust those that choose a specific career that gives them authority? Especially when we continuously see no  accountability for Barney Fifes on power trips. 

Without laws that empower individuals to defend themselves, you've monopolized self defense and laid the ground work for a future police state.
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Offline p1k3

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Re: Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2013, 07:56:42 PM »
I don't see why people have an issue with individuals having the legal authority to defend themselves, yet have no fear of a police force being corrupt?  I understand the lack of trust of some gun toting arm chair commando - I get that; how do people not mistrust those that choose a specific career that gives them authority? Especially when we continuously see no  accountability for Barney Fifes on power trips. 

Without laws that empower individuals to defend themselves, you've monopolized self defense and laid the ground work for a future police state.

the Libtards that have overrun the Pit are begging for a police state, that's why.

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2013, 08:15:00 PM »
I don't see why people have an issue with individuals having the legal authority to defend themselves, yet have no fear of a police force being corrupt?  I understand the lack of trust of some gun toting arm chair commando - I get that; how do people not mistrust those that choose a specific career that gives them authority? Especially when we continuously see no  accountability for Barney Fifes on power trips. 

Without laws that empower individuals to defend themselves, you've monopolized self defense and laid the ground work for a future police state.

Most police have a lot more training as far as confrontation and using firearms go.  I trust them more than arm chair commando.  That said, when they do something stupid, there are instances where their closeness to the justice system prevents them from being treated fairly.  I know of many lawyers/judges that receive preferential treatment from police and have no doubt that is frequently reciprocated.

Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2013, 12:45:35 AM »
Most police have a lot more training as far as confrontation and using firearms go.  I trust them more than arm chair commando.  That said, when they do something stupid, there are instances where their closeness to the justice system prevents them from being treated fairly.  I know of many lawyers/judges that receive preferential treatment from police and have no doubt that is frequently reciprocated.

You're missing the point entirely - I'm not talking about some arm chair commando serving and protecting you - I'm saying you should have the option to protect yourself, just as you have the option to put your life in the hands of some other guy that may be a really good cop / some dude that was spanked as a child and now confuses respect with authority / some dweeb that got picked on in high school so badly that he went out and got a gun and a badge, then proceeded to spend the next 20 years of his life daydreaming about the next class reunion where he can talk about all of the drug dealers and gang bangers he's busted - then convince his tormentors they're pussies unless they let him taze the crap out of them and laugh as they drop to the floor in one big pants pissing convulsion in front of the prom queen. 

I know a lot of douche bags I don't trust with guns and a lot of them are cops or in the military.  Pedophiles have a natural motivation to become high school volleyball coaches or catholic priests. Authoritarians with small dick syndrome have natural motivation to become cops or join the military.   Not that all cops get off on that sort of thing, but I'd wager a majority of them became cops because they enjoy force.  They certainly didn't sign up for a job where most people hate them, doesn't pay crap & puts you in daily positions to get shot for any other reason.   If even a quarter of cops are crap humans, well eff that being my only option for defense.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 01:04:13 AM by HeinBallz »
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Re: Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2013, 08:41:43 AM »
I don't see why people have an issue with individuals having the legal authority to defend themselves, yet have no fear of a police force being corrupt?  I understand the lack of trust of some gun toting arm chair commando - I get that; how do people not mistrust those that choose a specific career that gives them authority? Especially when we continuously see no  accountability for Barney Fifes on power trips. 

Without laws that empower individuals to defend themselves, you've monopolized self defense and laid the ground work for a future police state.

Who has an issue with individuals having the legal authority to defend themselves?

Offline HeinBallz

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Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2013, 09:20:00 AM »

Who has an issue with individuals having the legal authority to defend themselves?

Everyone that thinks Zimmerman should be in jail. 

Last I checked, following someone because you're part of a neighborhood watch is not illegal.  Following someone because they're black, although a dick move, is not illegal. Approaching someone to ask what they're doing, regardless of what police dispatch suggest you do, is not illegal.

On the other hand, TM punching Zimmerman in the face in response was illegal. Taking someone to the ground and MMA style face smashing them is illegal.   Telling someone they're going to die as they slam their head into a curb is illegal. 

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Re: Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2013, 09:22:26 AM »

Who has an issue with individuals having the legal authority to defend themselves?

Everyone that thinks Zimmerman should be in jail. 

Last I checked, following someone because you're part of a neighborhood watch is not illegal.  Following someone because they're black, although a dick move, is not illegal. Approaching someone to ask what they're doing, regardless of what police dispatch suggest you do, is not illegal.

On the other hand, TM punching Zimmerman in the face in response was illegal. Taking someone to the ground and MMA style face smashing them is illegal.   Telling someone they're going to die as they slam their head into a curb is illegal.

Zimmerman used excessive force to defend himself in a situation that was completely of his own creation, though.

Offline HeinBallz

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Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2013, 09:43:31 AM »
What the hell does excessive force even mean when someone is trying to kill you?  Everyone keeps point out it was a 17 year old vs a 30 year old, like age has something to do with it... Do you not understand he was literally within a couple of months being old enough to join the military and kill people professionally? 

I know some 15 year old kids that could kick the ass of most people in their twenties and thirties.  Did you not play football in high school?  Could you have held your own with most people when you were 17? 
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Offline HeinBallz

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Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2013, 09:47:15 AM »
And of his own creation?  Was it not also TM's own creation for not telling zimm to just "eff off" but instead attacking him?  TM obviously thought he could handle himself if he felt confident enough to make things physical.
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Re: Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2013, 09:48:42 AM »
What the hell does excessive force even mean when someone is trying to kill you?  Everyone keeps point out it was a 17 year old vs a 30 year old, like age has something to do with it... Do you not understand he was literally within a couple of months being old enough to join the military and kill people professionally? 

I know some 15 year old kids that could kick the ass of most people in their twenties and thirties.  Did you not play football in high school?  Could you have held your own with most people when you were 17?

What 160 pound 17 year old do you know that is going to kill you by punching you in the face? Do you really believe that he was trying to kill Zimmerman?

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Re: Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2013, 09:50:25 AM »
And of his own creation?  Was it not also TM's own creation for not telling zimm to just "eff off" but instead attacking him?  TM obviously thought he could handle himself if he felt confident enough to make things physical.

None of us have any idea of the details of how the fight was started. We do know that Zimmerman scared Martin enough to send him running away, and then pursued him with a loaded gun. That's a real recipe for avoiding confrontation, let me tell you.

Offline HeinBallz

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Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2013, 10:00:40 AM »
It was a neighborhood watch.  These are performed under police guidance.

Pretend Zimmerman was a cop, minus the authority to arrest someone, that's basically the responsibilities he assumed when deciding to be a part of the neighborhood watch.  If the cops saw a suspicious looking person and the guy started running, would they have not followed? 
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Re: Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2013, 10:04:38 AM »
It was a neighborhood watch.  These are performed under police guidance.

Pretend Zimmerman was a cop, minus the authority to arrest someone, that's basically the responsibilities he assumed when deciding to be a part of the neighborhood watch.  If the cops saw a suspicious looking person and the guy started running, would they have not followed?

Did Zimmerman have anything to identify himself as neighborhood watch? Does the neighborhood watch allow their volunteers to carry guns? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the answer to both of those questions is "no".

The police have actual authority and have to assume that somebody running from them is trying to get away with some sort of illegal activity. Zimmerman was a large, suspicious-looking man following a kid on a rainy night. The kid ran from him because he was afraid.

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2013, 10:23:51 AM »
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/354059/obama-voted-strengthen-illinoiss-stand-your-ground-law-2004-john-fund

But now we need to reexamine them, sayeth the president, based on a case that was not impacted by SYG. :lol:
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Re: Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2013, 10:28:14 AM »
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/354059/obama-voted-strengthen-illinoiss-stand-your-ground-law-2004-john-fund

But now we need to reexamine them, sayeth the president, based on a case that was not impacted by SYG. :lol:

I think it's great that the president has the maturity to admit that he was wrong in 2004 and wants to reevaluate bad laws.

Offline HeinBallz

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Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2013, 10:31:31 AM »

Did Zimmerman have anything to identify himself as neighborhood watch? Does the neighborhood watch allow their volunteers to carry guns? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the answer to both of those questions is "no".

The police have actual authority and have to assume that somebody running from them is trying to get away with some sort of illegal activity. Zimmerman was a large, suspicious-looking man following a kid on a rainy night. The kid ran from him because he was afraid.

I don't know about Florida, but in Kansas if you have a CCL, you can carry a gun for whatever reason you want as long as its not state or federal property.

And fine, he ran.  I would have too. And Zimmerman followed him.  I would have done that also if I thought the person was suspicious and I was part of a neighborhood watch.  I would have also been carrying a gun with the amount of break ins in that neighborhood.  What I wouldn't have done though is stop before I got home, even though I was in a stones throw away from my front porch and initiated an assault.  Once TM turned a verbal confrontation into a physical confrontation, he mumped up and tragically it cost him his life.  Anyone in that situation after being attacked and fearing for their life would have pulled the trigger.  Not everyone may not have gotten into that situation in the first place, as they may have better judgment, but nothing Zimmerman did to put himself into that situation was illegal.
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Re: Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2013, 10:35:21 AM »
Everything Zimmerman did was completely reckless with no regard for potential consequences. Sure, nothing he did was illegal, but using his gun to shoot an unarmed kid just because he got a boo boo absolutely should be illegal in this circumstance.

Offline HeinBallz

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« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2013, 10:45:45 AM »
I'm curious, lets say Zimmerman didn't have a gun on him and TM didn't kill him, but put him in critical condition - awoke paralyzed or something. Minus the bullet hole, all other evidence is the same.  The bruised knuckles on TM, the battered face of zimm,  the following, the phone calls, the social network evidence and history of fighting/drug use etc.  when zimm wakes up and says he told me I was going to die that night and I was scared for my life, does TM get attempted murder charges? If not, why?  If so, how was zimm not justified in shooting him?
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Re: Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2013, 10:52:41 AM »
I'm curious, lets say Zimmerman didn't have a gun on him and TM didn't kill him, but put him in critical condition - awoke paralyzed or something. Minus the bullet hole, all other evidence is the same.  The bruised knuckles on TM, the battered face of zimm,  the following, the phone calls, the social network evidence and history of fighting/drug use etc.  when zimm wakes up and says he told me I was going to die that night and I was scared for my life, does TM get attempted murder charges? If not, why?  If so, how was zimm not justified in shooting him?

It depends on how the fight ended. If Martin decided that Zimmerman had enough and just quit beating, him, then no. I don't think you could charge him with attempted murder. If Martin was dragged off of Zimmerman by the police, then yes, you could probably charge him with attempted murder. The beating would have to be pretty severe to move beyond what constitutes self defense, though. Zimmerman's 911 call would really provide all the evidence Martin needs to get off of battery charges if he were to just beat on Zimmerman until he is incapacitated.

Offline HeinBallz

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Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #69 on: July 22, 2013, 11:03:37 AM »
Beating on him until he is incapacitated?!?  So beating someone until they're unconscious and leaving them for dead... That's not attempted murder when they themselves start the physical aspect of the confrontation?  Even if he wasn't left for dead, and just beaten severely,  you're okay with people being beaten severely for whatever reason and not having legal authority to defend themselves by whatever means necessary to prevent severe bodily harm? 

Don't want to get killed? don't attack someone.  It's pretty simple.
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Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2013, 11:05:11 AM »
Everything Zimmerman did was completely reckless with no regard for potential consequences.

No, it wasn't. Trying to keep an eye on a suspicious person, especially when you're on the neighborhood watch, is not reckless. Approaching a suspicious person (if he did) and asking "what are you doing here?" is not reckless.

Now punching someone in the face in response - yeah, that's probably reckless.



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Offline HeinBallz

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Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2013, 11:05:17 AM »
Besides, telling someone you're going to kill them, then initiating a physical confrontation is grounds for attempted murder every time.  So he decided he had enough and left him alone?  Prosecution can say he left to get something to finish the job. 
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Re: Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #72 on: July 22, 2013, 11:06:59 AM »
Beating on him until he is incapacitated?!?  So beating someone until they're unconscious and leaving them for dead... That's not attempted murder when they themselves start the physical aspect of the confrontation?  Even if he wasn't left for dead, and just beaten severely,  you're okay with people being beaten severely for whatever reason and not having legal authority to defend themselves by whatever means necessary to prevent severe bodily harm? 

Don't want to get killed? don't attack someone.  It's pretty simple.

You have to remember that Zimmerman was armed with a gun. Martin could not stop beating him until Zimmerman was either disarmed or incapacitated if he wanted to walk out alive.

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Re: Stand Your Ground Laws
« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2013, 11:07:45 AM »
Besides, telling someone you're going to kill them, then initiating a physical confrontation is grounds for attempted murder every time.  So he decided he had enough and left him alone?  Prosecution can say he left to get something to finish the job.

What proof do you have of this "telling someone you're going to kill them"?

Offline HeinBallz

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« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2013, 11:13:44 AM »
I would say the guy that has bruises all over his face, but none on his knuckles should be believed over the guy that has bruises all over his knuckles and none on his face.
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