Author Topic: immigration  (Read 5244 times)

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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Re: Re: immigration
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2013, 09:00:20 PM »
did anyone see my post?  sys?

200k or an advanced degree is pretty steep.

$200K is nothing.  People pay coyotes tens of thousands to come here illegally.  If someone wants to pay $200K to move here, we should take their money and welcome them.  If someone has a PhD or advanced degree in almost anything they are adding value to us. 

Those are no brainers.  I think the worst part of immigration is the fact that it depresses wages for unskilled labor.  I would like to change the demographics a bit for immigrants and I think you can do that pretty humanely and in a way that benefits almost everyone.

I still think your dollar figure is too high. And I think any drastic increases in the minimum wage will encourage MORE working-class illegal immigration, not less.

Yeah, enforcement needs to come in to play at some choke point.  A lot of people prefer the border, I would prefer to regulate the employment side.  I don't think the increase in the min. wage would increase the illegal immigration for long though as my conception of it would reduce turnover for a lot of "unskilled" which a really semi-skilled jobs like: slaughterhouses, semi-skilled ag jobs (non-migrant), semi-skilled construction, food workers and service industry. 

Offline michigancat

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Re: Re: Re: Re: immigration
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2013, 09:03:52 PM »
I don't think the increase in the min. wage would increase the illegal immigration for long though as my conception of it would reduce turnover for a lot of "unskilled" which a really semi-skilled jobs like: slaughterhouses, semi-skilled ag jobs (non-migrant), semi-skilled construction, food workers and service industry.

It would also create the incentive to party under the table. OR make the legit employers more attractive to illegals.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Re: Re: Re: immigration
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2013, 10:01:33 PM »
I don't think the increase in the min. wage would increase the illegal immigration for long though as my conception of it would reduce turnover for a lot of "unskilled" which a really semi-skilled jobs like: slaughterhouses, semi-skilled ag jobs (non-migrant), semi-skilled construction, food workers and service industry.

It would also create the incentive to party under the table. OR make the legit employers more attractive to illegals.

right.  like I said, if there is any "solution" it will require enforcement at some choke point.  I think at the point of employers is the way to go.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: immigration
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2013, 04:14:15 PM »

Offline sys

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Re: immigration
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2013, 04:05:14 PM »
shacks,

so here are the reasons i dismissed your post/as well as further disagreements:  1) you couldn’t stop yourself from justifying your anti-immigrant position with the “come in the right way or don’t come in at all” stuff, even though i set up as a premise for the thread in the initial post that using that pretext is intellectually dishonest at best, manipulative at worst.  i mean if you want to argue the point, fine, but to just mindfully exhibit the same behavior – c’mon, that’s funny.  2)  you set up as your part of your criteria to allow citizenship for illegals that they can’t receive benefits and can’t vote.  well, they already can’t.  neither can legal immigrants for the five years you set up as the length the process should take.  and english proficiency is also already a part of the citizenship process.  it’s pretty hilarious, but USCIS is pretty much the least multilingual of any government agency in the us.  3) you want to build some giant rough ridin' wall, claiming it will cost less that our current system.  i’m pretty sure that’s complete bullshit, but go ahead and give me your figures.  how much does imperfect border protection cost our country?  how much would it cost to build and staff your giant rough ridin' wall and how much do you expect it to reduce immigration?   be sure to include costs like not permitting mexicans the possibility of vacationing, shopping, visiting family, studying and traveling on business in their neighboring country.  economics aside, are you truly comfortable with a system where 95% of the citizens of our neighboring country would have no possibility of ever setting foot in the us, merely because some of their countrymen want to come and work here for a little less than americans will accept?  4)  you state that you understand that it’s nigh-impossible for many people to become citizens because it’s a lengthy and expensive process.  i don’t think you do understand.  it is not a lengthy and expensive process.  there is no process by which the vast majority of the world can contemplate becoming a us citizen.  it is not difficult, it is impossible.

and it is important to also understand that the us denies tourist/business/student/etc. temporary visas to a considerable proportion of this vast majority of people than have no legal means of immigrating because of the (reasonable) fear that some percentage of people arriving on temporary visas would stay illegally.  my own mother-in-law has twice been denied a tourist visa.  she’s not impoverished, uneducated or criminally inclined, btw.


kk,

200k as a fee, as an required investment or as demonstrable assets (I assume you are aware that the us currently makes “entrepreneurial” visas available to those willing to invest 500-1000k in approved us enterprises)?  i agree with allowing visas for phds, although many of the people that would effect already have the means to immigrate via other avenues.

why would you raise the min. wage rather than simply institute national id cards and require employers to verify citizenship/work visas and let the market operate?

i’m not sure what you really mean with re. to independent contractors.  if i do understand you correctly, it is basically the de facto current system.  illegals working as contractors or in trades are usually (always?) unlicensed, and there are substantial penalties for that (at least in ca).  the same would be true of paying taxes.

i strongly agree that the us should enforce almost exclusively on the employment side, not at the border.  much more efficient, economical and rational; fewer negative side effects.
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Offline ben ji

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Re: immigration
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2013, 04:28:53 PM »
Everytime I get pak'd and take a cab home I always ask the cab driver's where they are from(Usually Somalia or Sudan in KC) and how long they have been in the US, family here etc etc. Then I tell them that America is a nation of Immigrants and I'm glad they are here and that if they work hard they can do anything.


I also request they play some music from their home country really loud and I rock out to it then give them a big tip and say thanks!

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: immigration
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2013, 04:37:47 PM »
1) yeah a one time fee in addition to the entrepreneurial visa, but open it up to anyone
2) I think a verification system would be part of it. I think there is a legit concern that illegal immigration in service/restaurant industry as well as in construction has had a real negative impact on the wages of unskilled, low education U.S. citizens. In my initial post I probably had too many qualifiers. I think ag is a no-brainer to continue with de-facto imported labor. But I think carving out some industries that are a) location specific (you can't "outsource" a guy swinging a hammer) b) semi-skilled (construction, service, restaurant etc.) we should be a bit more protectionist about given the current employment environment and our gini index. Throwing a bone to the bottom 2 native born quintiles on that issue is more of a net benefit than continuing to try and drive down wages to have firms compete solely on price (efficiency and quality become considerations).
3) I think ideologically I am uneasy about the messiness of that government intervention and it is a clear case of "picking winners and losers" but I've seen enough of this largely unregulated market hurting the domestic labor market by driving down wages (which employers love) while simultaneously passing a lot of the costs on to the public writ large through increased social services.  I'm not asking companies to change what has been working for them, we have to change the incentives and that means changing the laws.  The only thing that terrifies them is criminal penalties for employing illegal immigrants.

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: immigration
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2013, 04:37:56 PM »
I've got no problem with granting some sort of legal status to those who are currently here illegally - I just want two things first: (1) real border enforcement, and (2) an overhaul of the current immigration system which seems to favor immigration of poor, unskilled immigrants from third world countries over wealthier, skilled immigrants.

The problem with the Senate Bill is that it does neither of these things. The border enforcement provisions are toothless, and legal status is conferred immediately before border security is realized. It is bullshit. Also bullshit are certain Republicans carping about "build the damn fence!" Thanks to drones, however, there are now promising technologies for real border control. I believe the system is known as VADER.

I'll look forward to seeing whatever bill comes out of the House, though it has as much chance becoming law as the Senate Bill.
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Offline DQ12

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Re: immigration
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2013, 04:58:44 PM »
Sys i respect your commentary on the subject.  I have done little research on it, and I knew a wall didn't make any sense, but really didn't know why it didn't make any sense.  Thanks for shedding some light on this complicated subject for me.


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Offline michigancat

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Re: immigration
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2013, 06:12:49 PM »
Why are so many cab drivers from Africa? How does this happen?

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: immigration
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2013, 07:05:07 PM »
Why are so many cab drivers from Africa? How does this happen?

Asylum.  Which lead me to think of Snowden being a cabbie in Ecuador which made me laugh when paired with all of the very serious, very stern congressional and beltway types saying "Well, he's not going to have a good life" statements.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Re: immigration
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2013, 07:26:28 PM »
Why are so many cab drivers from Africa? How does this happen?

Asylum.  Which lead me to think of Snowden being a cabbie in Ecuador which made me laugh when paired with all of the very serious, very stern congressional and beltway types saying "Well, he's not going to have a good life" statements.

But why THAT profession and how do they DOMINATE it. I think being a cab driver would be fun if cabs weren't so smelly and gross and it didn't seem dangerous.

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Re: immigration
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2013, 07:39:26 PM »
Until Mexico decides it doesn't want to be a 3rd world country, the USA is just fingering dykes with any "solution".

National ID Cards?  what, like a social security card?

Minimum wage increase?  so we can make unskilled, illegal aliens upper lower instead of lower lower income families?

Border Security?  Like what, the Berlin Wall? 

The root problem is we're rough ridin' sexy and everyone wants to eff us.  Until other sexy chicks develop, we're going to get hit on by fat, drunk, ugly smelly people who we'll probably let bang us if they promise to clean our house for below minimum wage. 

Just take all the money we spend on immigration related activities and just spend it on building an infrastructure in Mexico (roads, schools, hospitals, etc.).  It would, in the long run, be a better spend of money.  Also, legalize and tax weed.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Re: immigration
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2013, 07:50:02 PM »
Why are so many cab drivers from Africa? How does this happen?

Asylum.  Which lead me to think of Snowden being a cabbie in Ecuador which made me laugh when paired with all of the very serious, very stern congressional and beltway types saying "Well, he's not going to have a good life" statements.

But why THAT profession and how do they DOMINATE it. I think being a cab driver would be fun if cabs weren't so smelly and gross and it didn't seem dangerous.

Sounds like you just answered your own question.  Honestly, the biggest reason (and I am making this all up based on my own opinion) is that most asylum seekers don't have the connections or experience to get a job in a lot of the better skilled service jobs.  Most other immigrants have family connections and tend to be entrepreneurial (China town etc.) but if there is not a large community and you don't have a bunch of cousins or uncles or brothers or whatever and you are smart, a cabbie isn't a bad gig.

Offline michigancat

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Re: immigration
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2013, 07:58:38 PM »
Why are so many cab drivers from Africa? How does this happen?

Asylum.  Which lead me to think of Snowden being a cabbie in Ecuador which made me laugh when paired with all of the very serious, very stern congressional and beltway types saying "Well, he's not going to have a good life" statements.

But why THAT profession and how do they DOMINATE it. I think being a cab driver would be fun if cabs weren't so smelly and gross and it didn't seem dangerous.

Sounds like you just answered your own question.  Honestly, the biggest reason (and I am making this all up based on my own opinion) is that most asylum seekers don't have the connections or experience to get a job in a lot of the better skilled service jobs.  Most other immigrants have family connections and tend to be entrepreneurial (China town etc.) but if there is not a large community and you don't have a bunch of cousins or uncles or brothers or whatever and you are smart, a cabbie isn't a bad gig.

It seems like a GREAT gig for an immigrant. I mean would you rather be hauling around drunks in SF or picking almonds in Fresno?

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Re: immigration
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2013, 08:05:21 PM »
Cab companies also take advantage and have those dudes drive 12 hours a day, 6-7 days a week.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline ben ji

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Re: immigration
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2013, 09:07:12 PM »
Most the cabbie's I have talked to in KC drive a cab as a second job to send more money to their families in Africa.

I had a cabbie take me home from the boats one time who was wearing a suit. I asked him about it and apparently he had a PHD from a college in Ghana and was the principal/director of some school/organization in KCMO who had just got out of a meeting before his shift started. His first job in America was a cab driver and he still did it part time on the side.




Offline ben ji

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Re: immigration
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2013, 09:07:59 PM »
Why are so many cab drivers from Africa? How does this happen?

Asylum.  Which lead me to think of Snowden being a cabbie in Ecuador which made me laugh when paired with all of the very serious, very stern congressional and beltway types saying "Well, he's not going to have a good life" statements.

But why THAT profession and how do they DOMINATE it. I think being a cab driver would be fun if cabs weren't so smelly and gross and it didn't seem dangerous.

Sounds like you just answered your own question.  Honestly, the biggest reason (and I am making this all up based on my own opinion) is that most asylum seekers don't have the connections or experience to get a job in a lot of the better skilled service jobs.  Most other immigrants have family connections and tend to be entrepreneurial (China town etc.) but if there is not a large community and you don't have a bunch of cousins or uncles or brothers or whatever and you are smart, a cabbie isn't a bad gig.

It seems like a GREAT gig for an immigrant. I mean would you rather be hauling around drunks in SF or picking almonds in Fresno?

Excellent point

Offline Shacks

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Re: immigration
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2013, 11:02:09 PM »
sys,

Some of what I said was tongue-in-cheek Pit posting, such as the bits about illegals not being allowed to vote or get benefits, stuff like that.  I've seen posts about that in the Facebook thread and I've heard Republicans complaining about Democrats trying to bring in as many illegals as possible to get more votes so I figured I'd address it.

As for the wall, no I don't have any figures for that.  It's just my opinion that spending a lot of money now to build one will pay off over time.  If it deters enough illegal immigrants, I believe it will be beneficial in the future because illegal immigrants do put a lot of strain on our education and health systems.

Vacations and foreign exchange students, I don't have anything against that.  Not sure where you picked it up.  I didn't talk about visas getting unfairly denied either, but that crap happens everywhere.  I know an American who was denied entry into England while he was on vacation because he was retired US special forces.  No criminal record either.

I still don't see why I should be in favor of a more accessible path to American citizenship.  It's bad for those who can't move here but good for those who already live in America.  We have too much poverty and unemployment as it is and our population is growing so there is no need to allow rampant immigration.  If you let in a bunch of impoverished citizens from other countries, they aren't going to magically move up in society.  Historically, for the first few generations lower-class immigrants will still be on the bottom rung.  For example, when the first Chinese immigrants arrived in America they were basically slaves for the railroad companies.  Now, 50% of Asians over 25 in the US have a college degree (yes, I realize that China doesn't equal all of Asia and here is the link for that http://www.asian-nation.org/14-statistics.shtml).   I don't think it's wrong that the citizenship process strongly favors people who are educated and/or financially secure.  Those immigrants will be more likely to immediately contribute to society.

Offline sys

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Re: immigration
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2013, 12:02:40 AM »
shacks, i don't think our immigration policy should be an act of charity either.  i think one of the underlying problems with our immigration policy is that we are hung up on the story of ourselves as a nation of immigrants.  of the hundreds of mexicans that i met that had lived in the us, or that were considering coming here, i never met a single one that aspired to american citizenship (i admit, i met a self-selected sample).  the mexican dream is not to become american, it's to come here, work for a decade, then go home and build a more prosperous life with capital saved.  mexicans may be unusual in that respect, due to proximity and culture, but the world is getting smaller.  no one today has to get on a boat, sail to the new world and bid farewell forever to your culture, local sports teams, relatives, friends and blighted potato fields.

yet, we refuse to create a work visa with no avenue to citizenship and instead macerate ourselves with the idea of illegal immigrants.

i mentioned the problems with temporary visas because it is a negative side effect of attempting to "secure the border" rather than create an effective means of controlling the hiring of legal labor.
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Offline sys

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Re: Re: immigration
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2013, 12:05:54 AM »
the biggest reason (and I am making this all up based on my own opinion) is that most asylum seekers don't have the connections or experience to get a job in a lot of the better skilled service jobs.  Most other immigrants have family connections and tend to be entrepreneurial (China town etc.) but if there is not a large community and you don't have a bunch of cousins or uncles or brothers or whatever and you are smart, a cabbie isn't a bad gig.

i bet they all know people that get them into the cabbie business.  the whole immigrant networks are fascinating.  when was the last time anyone stayed at a motel not owned by an indian?
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline sys

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Re: immigration
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2013, 12:10:44 AM »
Until Mexico decides it doesn't want to be a 3rd world country, the USA is just fingering dykes with any "solution".

National ID Cards?  what, like a social security card?

Minimum wage increase?  so we can make unskilled, illegal aliens upper lower instead of lower lower income families?

Border Security?  Like what, the Berlin Wall? 

The root problem is we're rough ridin' sexy and everyone wants to eff us.  Until other sexy chicks develop, we're going to get hit on by fat, drunk, ugly smelly people who we'll probably let bang us if they promise to clean our house for below minimum wage. 

Just take all the money we spend on immigration related activities and just spend it on building an infrastructure in Mexico (roads, schools, hospitals, etc.).  It would, in the long run, be a better spend of money.  Also, legalize and tax weed.

like a photo id with biometrics, something that can't be forged by anyone with a xerox and card stock.  we're not so sexy anymore, net negative immigration from mexico over the last few years (self deportation in the parlance of romney).
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline sys

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Re: immigration
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2013, 12:28:06 AM »
I just want two things first: (1) real border enforcement

why?  what successful countries can you think of that have endless miles of guarded borders?
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline sys

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Re: immigration
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2013, 12:39:07 AM »
1) yeah a one time fee in addition to the entrepreneurial visa, but open it up to anyone
2) I think a verification system would be part of it. I think there is a legit concern that illegal immigration in service/restaurant industry as well as in construction has had a real negative impact on the wages of unskilled, low education U.S. citizens. In my initial post I probably had too many qualifiers. I think ag is a no-brainer to continue with de-facto imported labor. But I think carving out some industries that are a) location specific (you can't "outsource" a guy swinging a hammer) b) semi-skilled (construction, service, restaurant etc.) we should be a bit more protectionist about given the current employment environment and our gini index. Throwing a bone to the bottom 2 native born quintiles on that issue is more of a net benefit than continuing to try and drive down wages to have firms compete solely on price (efficiency and quality become considerations).
3) I think ideologically I am uneasy about the messiness of that government intervention and it is a clear case of "picking winners and losers" but I've seen enough of this largely unregulated market hurting the domestic labor market by driving down wages (which employers love) while simultaneously passing a lot of the costs on to the public writ large through increased social services.  I'm not asking companies to change what has been working for them, we have to change the incentives and that means changing the laws.  The only thing that terrifies them is criminal penalties for employing illegal immigrants.

we agree on a lot.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: immigration
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2013, 08:44:52 AM »
sys,

Some of what I said was tongue-in-cheek Pit posting, such as the bits about illegals not being allowed to vote or get benefits, stuff like that.  I've seen posts about that in the Facebook thread and I've heard Republicans complaining about Democrats trying to bring in as many illegals as possible to get more votes so I figured I'd address it.

As for the wall, no I don't have any figures for that.  It's just my opinion that spending a lot of money now to build one will pay off over time.  If it deters enough illegal immigrants, I believe it will be beneficial in the future because illegal immigrants do put a lot of strain on our education and health systems.

Vacations and foreign exchange students, I don't have anything against that.  Not sure where you picked it up.  I didn't talk about visas getting unfairly denied either, but that crap happens everywhere.  I know an American who was denied entry into England while he was on vacation because he was retired US special forces.  No criminal record either.

I still don't see why I should be in favor of a more accessible path to American citizenship.  It's bad for those who can't move here but good for those who already live in America.  We have too much poverty and unemployment as it is and our population is growing so there is no need to allow rampant immigration.  If you let in a bunch of impoverished citizens from other countries, they aren't going to magically move up in society.  Historically, for the first few generations lower-class immigrants will still be on the bottom rung.  For example, when the first Chinese immigrants arrived in America they were basically slaves for the railroad companies.  Now, 50% of Asians over 25 in the US have a college degree (yes, I realize that China doesn't equal all of Asia and here is the link for that http://www.asian-nation.org/14-statistics.shtml).   I don't think it's wrong that the citizenship process strongly favors people who are educated and/or financially secure.  Those immigrants will be more likely to immediately contribute to society.

The thing is that the impoverished immigrants who come here to work in fields, mow lawns, drive cabs, etc. contribute more to society than you are giving them credit for. They make businesses very profitable, which increases overall tax revenue. They keep the cost of goods and services low, and most importantly, they fill high-demand jobs that have a very low supply of able workers. Why do we need to prioritize immigrants who want to work jobs that plenty of Americans are qualified for and want?