First Openly Gay Athlete (in a major sport)

[fun muffin]

Lol at believers requiring conclusive evidence.

I find the Bible to be quite reliable actually.

http://carm.org/archaeological-evidence-verifying-biblical-cities


No archaeological discovery has ever contradicted the Bible.

How about geology and biology?

Could you please be a little more specific, and I will gladly research these issues.

Length of time the earth has existed, flood, evolution, dinosaurs and humans co-existing, etc.

Awesome, if you don't mind I will tackle these over the course of the week.  Since there are multiple topics I think that is fair, especially since I'm just your average guy who has no specialized training to tackle these issues.

But I will do my best to find you the best possible resources and references. 

As for now, I'm off to Taco Bell for 4th meal.  Mods feel free to move to "Things I am ashamed of"

[_33]

Knock it off with the bigot and hate comments.  Fun Muffin and PW are coming from the love the person viewpoint, hate the sin viewpoint.  They are not advocating hating gay people or treating them badly because they are different.  Because of their faith they believe they are living a lifestyle which is not pleasing to God.  That is a valid point of view.  Nothing about that point of view is bigoted or hateful.  You may think it's really stupid, and you may disagree with it completely and that's fine, by all means say so.  But save your bullshit "bigot and hate" comments for the bigoted and hateful, there are plenty of them.  Fun Muffin and PW are not those people.

How do you know if message board posters are bigots or not? You, like the people you are admonishing, are using message board posts to make a determination. Your opinion has no more value than anyone who are calling them bigots.

I will give fun muffin and poet warrior a lot of credit for having a very unpopular opinion and not hiding from it. Having the conviction to stand up for what you feel is right in the face of overwhelming criticism is admirable on certain levels. What I don't admire are people who won't express their opinions but are critical of others by asking open ended questions and standing behind others taking fire. I'd certainly view anyone who does this as a coward. Its an internet message board if you have an opinion you should give it. I hate passive aggression.

Oh, I don't give a crap what you respect in a message board poster.

[michigancat]

There is evidence of  homosexuality being strongly linked to certain genes.

And how was I insulting people with lisps?

There is research all over the place, and there is no conclusive evidence.

there's very, very strong evidence. I'm guessing you wouldn't consider anything "conclusive", though.

 http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/12/11/homosexuality-ultimately-result-gene-regulation-researchers-find/

Well it was an interesting read for sure.  But the author himself kept using words like "may" and "sometimes" so I would say it's hardly strong evidence. 

The author didn't write the paper:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/668167

[MakeItRain]

Knock it off with the bigot and hate comments.  Fun Muffin and PW are coming from the love the person viewpoint, hate the sin viewpoint.  They are not advocating hating gay people or treating them badly because they are different.  Because of their faith they believe they are living a lifestyle which is not pleasing to God.  That is a valid point of view.  Nothing about that point of view is bigoted or hateful.  You may think it's really stupid, and you may disagree with it completely and that's fine, by all means say so.  But save your bullshit "bigot and hate" comments for the bigoted and hateful, there are plenty of them.  Fun Muffin and PW are not those people.

How do you know if message board posters are bigots or not? You, like the people you are admonishing, are using message board posts to make a determination. Your opinion has no more value than anyone who are calling them bigots.

I will give fun muffin and poet warrior a lot of credit for having a very unpopular opinion and not hiding from it. Having the conviction to stand up for what you feel is right in the face of overwhelming criticism is admirable on certain levels. What I don't admire are people who won't express their opinions but are critical of others by asking open ended questions and standing behind others taking fire. I'd certainly view anyone who does this as a coward. Its an internet message board if you have an opinion you should give it. I hate passive aggression.

Oh, I don't give a crap what you respect in a message board poster.

I don't know who you are, why would you care what I respect in a message board poster? Oh and just so I'm not guilty of being a hypocrite; why don't you stop being such a rough ridin' coward and say how you feel? Your stupid ass rhetorical questions and wordy defenses are transparent as hell. Grow some balls.

[PoetWarrior]

Your verbal diarrhea doesn't make you right. No two opinions are equal, and you're the only person to suggest as much.  I won't even state your interpretation of the bible is right or wrong, its a fruitless argument, I will say your opinion on whether or not homosexuality is inherent is very wrong. What does the bible say about calling millions of people you've never met liars, because that's what you're doing when you deny that people are born with their sexual orientation.

I've asked this before and I'll ask again and I really want you to address it. If people aren't born gay, if it is a choice, why are teenagers swallowing revolvers and hanging themselves over the burden of being gay? You ever hear of anyone burdened by heterosexuality? You ever hear of a heterosexual pretending to be gay to hide his love of women from his friends and family?

The emotions associated with temptation and sin are difficult to deal with; guilt, despair, etc. People are tempted to kill themselves because of an endless amount of situations or emotions or sin, especially teenagers.  Sexual struggles are often some of the most powerful temptations, which is why not only those struggling with homosexuality, but those who are abused in some way often attempt suicide.   Temptations can be extremely difficult to overcome. For instance, I believe what I believe, know I should not do something, I am tempted by it and end up doing it even though I know I shouldn't and even though I've failed before and experienced guilt. This happens to me personally with regularity, as it does all people. The difference is that at a point afterward I realize that I lost control and ask for forgiveness and God tells us I'm forgiven because I've placed my faith in Jesus and repented. 

Why wouldn't a heterosexual kill themselves for their sexuality or try to hide it? Probably because, as fun muffin has said, it is a natural way of being, intended by God.  There isn't much despair in God's intentions.

We don't have complete control of ourselves (if we did, why do I do things I don't want to do?).  There are forces at work that actually pull us in one direction or another. I'm not saying that every homosexual said in clear mind, "I think I'll be gay." I'm saying that they have submitted to something, nearly against their will (in some cases) and they must, with God's help, pull themselves out of it. This is the case with all sin. The desires they are experiencing for the same sex can be overcome with the help of our Lord.

Edit: I'm not saying those that have been abused have done anything wrong, but that the sexual confusion/disorientation/despair that may come with this type of situation can lead to suicide, because things of a sexual nature are powerful.

[PoetWarrior]

Really? Tell me about it, I'd love to know your view on the struggle of being black in our society.

You don't know what color I am.

[MakeItRain]

The emotions associated with temptation and sin are difficult to deal with; guilt, despair, etc. People are tempted to kill themselves because of an endless amount of situations or emotions or sin, especially teenagers.  Sexual struggles are often some of the most powerful temptations, which is why not only those struggling with homosexuality, but those who are abused in some way often attempt suicide.   Temptations can be extremely difficult to overcome. For instance, I believe what I believe, know I should not do something, I am tempted by it and end up doing it even though I know I shouldn't and even though I've failed before and experienced guilt. This happens to me personally with regularity, as it does all people. The difference is that at a point afterward I realize that I lost control and ask for forgiveness and God tells us I'm forgiven because I've placed my faith in Jesus and repented. 

Why wouldn't a heterosexual kill themselves for their sexuality or try to hide it? Probably because, as fun muffin has said, it is a natural way of being, intended by God.  There isn't much despair in God's intentions.

We don't have complete control of ourselves (if we did, why do I do things I don't want to do?).  There are forces at work that actually pull us in one direction or another. I'm not saying that every homosexual said in clear mind, "I think I'll be gay." I'm saying that they have submitted to something, nearly against their will (in some cases) and they must, with God's help, pull themselves out of it. This is the case with all sin. The desires they are experiencing for the same sex can be overcome with the help of our Lord.

Two clarification questions:
1. Are you saying that the struggle is with the temptation to have sex? Do you only equate homosexuality to who you have sex with as opposed to who you have the capacity to love?
2. Did God make people (some people ) gay just so that they could overcome being gay with God's help?

that was three questions, sorry

[MakeItRain]

Really? Tell me about it, I'd love to know your view on the struggle of being black in our society.

You don't know what color I am.

What does that have to do with my post? Did I say something about your race that I was unaware of? Please tell me about the struggle of being black and why comparing it to the struggle of homosexuals to gain acceptance is such an insult?

[PoetWarrior]

Two clarification questions:
1. Are you saying that the struggle is with the temptation to have sex? Do you only equate homosexuality to who you have sex with as opposed to who you have the capacity to love?
2. Did God make people (some people ) gay just so that they could overcome being gay with God's help?

that was three questions, sorry

1. Does this really need clarification? One love you feel for your grandma or a friend, another love (more appropriately lust) you feel for someone you think is hot (He's/She's so hot!). It's hard to describe, but I think everyone's pretty clear on it. I believe love and lust are different though often confused. I can love my same sex friend, for example, without any sexuality entering the picture. The Bible tells us that sin enters anytime we commit adultery (Jesus also said that lust is equal to adultery). Adultery is defined as sex outside of a God-intended union between one man and one woman. So, sex is only for marriage between one man and one woman. So, whether Collins is having gay sex or only wishing he was having gay sex, he's sinning. But I bet he loves his twin brother and that's OK. Collins struggles with the lust for men and potentially acting on it, not loving his brother.

2. The Bible says that God is only good and that he does not tempt us. We are tempted by Satan and by desires of our flesh. So God would not create something that was bad. When he created the universe and all that was in it(including a man and woman to be joined together), he proclaimed it all, "Good." It was only of our doing and Satan's that we fell and sin was created. So, no.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I have yet to come across a passage in the bible where Jesus even mentions homosexuality. I've only seen passages written by religious leaders prior to Jesus and church leaders after him. If you are going to completely disregard the old testament because Jesus set the record straight, so to speak, then why would you give so much weight to the rules that religious leaders created after Jesus died?

[PoetWarrior]

What does that have to do with my post? Did I say something about your race that I was unaware of? Please tell me about the struggle of being black and why comparing it to the struggle of homosexuals to gain acceptance is such an insult?

You're implying that I know nothing of it. But to answer the question, people are born black or another color. That's a fact. We can see it with our eyes. Homosexuals: inconclusive at best.

[PoetWarrior]

I have yet to come across a passage in the bible where Jesus even mentions homosexuality. I've only seen passages written by religious leaders prior to Jesus and church leaders after him. If you are going to completely disregard the old testament because Jesus set the record straight, so to speak, then why would you give so much weight to the rules that religious leaders created after Jesus died?

A Christian views the entire Bible as the inspired word of God. Whether or not Jesus explicitly said anything about homosexuality is not important, because a Christian believes the Bible exists as it does, and is to be believed, because God has ordained it that way. So if Paul says it, we can believe it, for example.

But having said all of that, Jesus does discuss lust being adultery and sex only occurring with a union between one man and one woman. So, why do we need any other direction?

The old testament is not to be disregarded, but in context with the new testament, it becomes more clear.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Wasn't Jesus crucified for violating the laws of the Old Testament? It seems kind of strange that God would write that part of the bible through people and then come to earth in the form of Jesus and violate his own laws.

[PoetWarrior]

Wasn't Jesus crucified for violating the laws of the Old Testament? It seems kind of strange that God would write that part of the bible through people and then come to earth in the form of Jesus and violate his own laws.

No, he wasn't. Jesus himself said that he came to "fulfill" the law. He was crucified because people thought he wasn't who he said he was and deserved death for it.

Galatians 3: "23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. "

[0.42]

Well this was quite the thread to step into.

[Cire]

What does that have to do with my post? Did I say something about your race that I was unaware of? Please tell me about the struggle of being black and why comparing it to the struggle of homosexuals to gain acceptance is such an insult?

You're implying that I know nothing of it. But to answer the question, people are born black or another color. That's a fact. We can see it with our eyes. Homosexuals: inconclusive at best.

Mind boggling

[PoetWarrior]

What does one say about someone who claims they've overcome homosexuality? Someone who practiced it and has since lead a heterosexual lifestyle? Are they a liar?

[Cire]

What does one say about someone who claims they've overcome homosexuality? Someone who practiced it and has since lead a heterosexual lifestyle? Are they a liar?

There are bisexual people.

[Cire]

Think about the variety of people you might find attractive.   For everybody this is different.  For about three percent of the us this extends to the same sex. Smaller percentage extends to both sexes.   Not sure why this is so hard.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Wasn't Jesus crucified for violating the laws of the Old Testament? It seems kind of strange that God would write that part of the bible through people and then come to earth in the form of Jesus and violate his own laws.

No, he wasn't. Jesus himself said that he came to "fulfill" the law. He was crucified because people thought he wasn't who he said he was and deserved death for it.

Galatians 3: "23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. "

Jesus also did not observe the Sabbath.

[_33]

Knock it off with the bigot and hate comments.  Fun Muffin and PW are coming from the love the person viewpoint, hate the sin viewpoint.  They are not advocating hating gay people or treating them badly because they are different.  Because of their faith they believe they are living a lifestyle which is not pleasing to God.  That is a valid point of view.  Nothing about that point of view is bigoted or hateful.  You may think it's really stupid, and you may disagree with it completely and that's fine, by all means say so.  But save your bullshit "bigot and hate" comments for the bigoted and hateful, there are plenty of them.  Fun Muffin and PW are not those people.

How do you know if message board posters are bigots or not? You, like the people you are admonishing, are using message board posts to make a determination. Your opinion has no more value than anyone who are calling them bigots.

I will give fun muffin and poet warrior a lot of credit for having a very unpopular opinion and not hiding from it. Having the conviction to stand up for what you feel is right in the face of overwhelming criticism is admirable on certain levels. What I don't admire are people who won't express their opinions but are critical of others by asking open ended questions and standing behind others taking fire. I'd certainly view anyone who does this as a coward. Its an internet message board if you have an opinion you should give it. I hate passive aggression.

Oh, I don't give a crap what you respect in a message board poster.

I don't know who you are, why would you care what I respect in a message board poster? Oh and just so I'm not guilty of being a hypocrite; why don't you stop being such a rough ridin' coward and say how you feel? Your stupid ass rhetorical questions and wordy defenses are transparent as hell. Grow some balls.

OK, I now know why you argue every tiny little insignificant point to the death in paragraph form.  It's because you equate having a strong opinion and belittling everyone who doesn't share it with being a man.  Weird.

[michigancat]

Why does the Bible say homosexuality is a sin? I can legitimately understand the purpose of the ten commandments, but not the God hating gays thing.

[Dugout DickStone]

Why does the Bible say homosexuality is a sin? I can legitimately understand the purpose of the ten commandments, but not the God hating gays thing.

I think it is about beating the planet with more people.

[POD Lasalle Edition]

Did he go to Kstate?

[star seed 7]

Why did god create satan to temp us?   Seems pretty uncool of him.