Unions

[star seed 7]

A union is a carefully crafted political action committee whereunder the democrat party steals money from the uneducated working class in order to push its agenda to expand and crush the working class, while simultaneously indoctrinating said uneducated working class worker through a mixture and positive reinforcement (e.g., you're welding worth $35 an hour with full benefits) and propaganda (e.g., if not for us "the man" would work you until you're dead then hire another).

Union members are also historically the source of racism and anti-immigration sentiment.

so bad union history is not propaganda (it's not), but bad industry history is totally propaganda (it's not)?

pretty lazy here FSDork.

[sys]

The CEO of WalMart makes more in one hour than most of his employees make in a year. Thank god they crush unions that try to form in their stores.

The market dictates the value of his job. Everyone on earth would agree that the CEO of most companies makes too much. But as long as companies are having to pay those salaries to compete, you bet your ass they'll pay them.

the market doesn't dictate the value of the ceo of walmart, any more than the market dictates the value of an elite coach.  there are only a handful of jobs that the ceo/coach would consider leaving for and there are thousands of people that could do his job as well or better.  his salary is dictated by the cost his employer (or at least the people responsible for doing the hiring) assigns to the risk of rough ridin' up the hiring of his replacement.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

The fact that that's the only thing you took issue with is troubling for unions.

Also, unions are the conduit for much of the countries organized crime.

A union is a carefully crafted political action committee whereunder the democrat party steals money from the uneducated working class in order to push its agenda to expand and crush the working class, while simultaneously indoctrinating said uneducated working class worker through a mixture and positive reinforcement (e.g., you're welding worth $35 an hour with full benefits) and propaganda (e.g., if not for us "the man" would work you until you're dead then hire another).

Union members are also historically the source of racism and anti-immigration sentiment.


so bad union history is not propaganda (it's not), but bad industry history is totally propaganda (it's not)?

pretty lazy here FSDork.

[star seed 7]

i'm not a union fan, as i stated earlier in this thread.

but your arguement that the history of how companies exploited workers is invalid, but featuring the history of unions is pretty lazy.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

i'm not a union fan, as i stated earlier in this thread.

but your arguement that the history of how companies exploited workers is invalid, but featuring the history of unions is pretty lazy.

FYI, most propaganda doesn't include "both sides of the story". 

[star seed 7]

also pretty lazy to say they steal money from the poor, but then make the poor overpaid.

[star seed 7]

so you're a propaganda spreader.  makes a lot of your posts understandable now.

[ednksu]

Interesting, as union labor has decrease, so has the middle class and manufacturing in the US

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Interesting, as union labor has decrease, so has the middle class and manufacturing in the US

Well, after they drove their employer out of business and overseas there was no one left to hire them.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

so you're a propaganda spreader.  makes a lot of your posts understandable now.

I'm 99% certain you don't understand anything I post.  As evidenced above.  I should probably take your money now.

[ednksu]

Interesting, as union labor has decrease, so has the middle class and manufacturing in the US

Well, after they drove their employer out of business and overseas there was no one left to hire them.

LOL

[EMAWmeister]

The CEO of WalMart makes more in one hour than most of his employees make in a year. Thank god they crush unions that try to form in their stores.

The market dictates the value of his job. Everyone on earth would agree that the CEO of most companies makes too much. But as long as companies are having to pay those salaries to compete, you bet your ass they'll pay them.

the market doesn't dictate the value of the ceo of walmart, any more than the market dictates the value of an elite coach.  there are only a handful of jobs that the ceo/coach would consider leaving for and there are thousands of people that could do his job as well or better.  his salary is dictated by the cost his employer (or at least the people responsible for doing the hiring) assigns to the risk of rough ridin' up the hiring of his replacement.

No. If Mike Duke resigned from Wal-Mart right now, whatever job he took would pay at least, if not more than the job he has now. 

[CNS]

Those contractors closing up shop would be a good thing dumbass.  OSHA isn't out there to collect money.  The fines are punitive.  Meant to be punishment.  Punishment hurts.  Pay up or go out of biz.  That is exactly why they exist.  Get the shitty guys out of biz so that the industry as a whole is better. 

I don't know where the OSHA talking point has come from, but I have been working one kind of construction or another solidly for 20 yrs now and it certainly is a needed set of regulations.

Wrong Dumbass.  OSHA's federal funding has been cut significantly so that the majority of their funding DOES come from fines.  OSHA is out there to collect money or else they wouldn't come up with guidelines that their own inspectors can't even interpret.  They also wouldn't come up with regulations such as the multiemployer rule which allows them to fine two contractors for one infraction.  If they were here to get the shitty guys out of the biz, they would have been regulating residential contractors years ago.

Their fines are still punitive.  Their budget being drastically cut doesn't retroactively change the intent of the regulations.

Good god ppl.

Also, the idea of the multiemployer rule makes sense.  If you have a contractor on your site, as a General Contractor, and he is doing stupid crap, both his employer and you should be responsible as both his employer and you have the responsibility to stop it.  Guess what, if that same dumbass gets hurt, guess how the insurance works?  That's right, said dumbass will sue his employer as well as the GC as well as the owner of the project.  What I am saying is that in the world of responsibility, things don't stop at one level.  This isn't anything new. 

What exactly do  you think will change if OSHA is abolished?  You think the market will regulate itself in safety?   Who wins if OSHA is done away with? 

[Rage Against the McKee]

Who wins if OSHA is done away with?

The Tea Party

[Mikeyis4dcats]

Those contractors closing up shop would be a good thing dumbass.  OSHA isn't out there to collect money.  The fines are punitive.  Meant to be punishment.  Punishment hurts.  Pay up or go out of biz.  That is exactly why they exist.  Get the shitty guys out of biz so that the industry as a whole is better. 

I don't know where the OSHA talking point has come from, but I have been working one kind of construction or another solidly for 20 yrs now and it certainly is a needed set of regulations.

Wrong Dumbass.  OSHA's federal funding has been cut significantly so that the majority of their funding DOES come from fines.  OSHA is out there to collect money or else they wouldn't come up with guidelines that their own inspectors can't even interpret.  They also wouldn't come up with regulations such as the multiemployer rule which allows them to fine two contractors for one infraction.  If they were here to get the shitty guys out of the biz, they would have been regulating residential contractors years ago.

Their fines are still punitive.  Their budget being drastically cut doesn't retroactively change the intent of the regulations.

Good god ppl.

Also, the idea of the multiemployer rule makes sense.  If you have a contractor on your site, as a General Contractor, and he is doing stupid crap, both his employer and you should be responsible as both his employer and you have the responsibility to stop it.  Guess what, if that same dumbass gets hurt, guess how the insurance works?  That's right, said dumbass will sue his employer as well as the GC as well as the owner of the project.  What I am saying is that in the world of responsibility, things don't stop at one level.  This isn't anything new. 

What exactly do  you think will change if OSHA is abolished?  You think the market will regulate itself in safety?   Who wins if OSHA is done away with?

I've never grasped the short sighted nature of people who trot out the anti-union (and now anti-OSHA) talking point of "it's a different world, it's no longer needed".    It's a different world because it exists.   Man has not changed since the advent of unions (and OSHA).   Man will return to the old ways given the chance.

[CNS]

Those contractors closing up shop would be a good thing dumbass.  OSHA isn't out there to collect money.  The fines are punitive.  Meant to be punishment.  Punishment hurts.  Pay up or go out of biz.  That is exactly why they exist.  Get the shitty guys out of biz so that the industry as a whole is better. 

I don't know where the OSHA talking point has come from, but I have been working one kind of construction or another solidly for 20 yrs now and it certainly is a needed set of regulations.

Wrong Dumbass.  OSHA's federal funding has been cut significantly so that the majority of their funding DOES come from fines.  OSHA is out there to collect money or else they wouldn't come up with guidelines that their own inspectors can't even interpret.  They also wouldn't come up with regulations such as the multiemployer rule which allows them to fine two contractors for one infraction.  If they were here to get the shitty guys out of the biz, they would have been regulating residential contractors years ago.

Their fines are still punitive.  Their budget being drastically cut doesn't retroactively change the intent of the regulations.

Good god ppl.

Also, the idea of the multiemployer rule makes sense.  If you have a contractor on your site, as a General Contractor, and he is doing stupid crap, both his employer and you should be responsible as both his employer and you have the responsibility to stop it.  Guess what, if that same dumbass gets hurt, guess how the insurance works?  That's right, said dumbass will sue his employer as well as the GC as well as the owner of the project.  What I am saying is that in the world of responsibility, things don't stop at one level.  This isn't anything new. 

What exactly do  you think will change if OSHA is abolished?  You think the market will regulate itself in safety?   Who wins if OSHA is done away with?

I've never grasped the short sighted nature of people who trot out the anti-union (and now anti-OSHA) talking point of "it's a different world, it's no longer needed".    It's a different world because it exists.   Man has not changed since the advent of unions (and OSHA).   Man will return to the old ways given the chance.

What it comes down to is money.  Money is money and ppl will save money at the expense of worker well being unless regulated.

[Emo EMAW]

How many of you actually work for a manufacturer?  Of those, how many are union?

[Institutional Control]

My company has 350,000 employees. I'm sure some of them are union workers.

[slobber]

My company has 350,000 employees. I'm sure some of them are union workers.

Similar.

[Emo EMAW]

I work for a global manufacturer, employees ~20,000.  We're all non-union AFAIK.  I interned for one of the big auto makers for two summers.  That's all it took to know I didn't want to work there for the rest of my life.  Almost got fired my first day on the job for picking up a bolt (safety hazard) in a walking aisle. 

[CNS]

I work for a global manufacturer, employees ~20,000.  We're all non-union AFAIK.  I interned for one of the big auto makers for two summers.  That's all it took to know I didn't want to work there for the rest of my life.  Almost got fired my first day on the job for picking up a bolt (safety hazard) in a walking aisle.

I have a good friend who worked for Ford for a while and has a bunch of family that still does.  The stories I hear from them along with the ones we all hear on the news definitely make me think the Auto unions are the primary issue in why most ppl hate unions.  I mean, they get by with some outlandish stuff.  Some of it could land the normal non-union guy in jail. 

Also, with the automation of the manufacturing process, it took skill out of many of the jobs from what I understand to the point that the "certain level of training" argument I made for the construction industry doesn't apply. 

For example, one story I heard was that a guy at Ford had the responsibility of checking one screw/bolt/whatevs on one certain part of the door of cars to make sure it was fully tightened.  How did he do this?  With a device that measures torque?  Nope.  with his thumbnail.  He went around and tried to slide his thumbnail behind the screw head and if he could, he had to call another guy over to tighten it.  His thumbnail was worn all weird because of this repeated use too.  this guy was getting paid in excess of $70k last I heard. 

Also, a new one I heard this yr: there is a lift at Ford that takes the truck from one level of the conveyor down a level to another area.  The lift can be manipulated so that it moves before the vehicle is fully placed on it by the conveyor.  A certain guy was significantly lowering the lift so that when the truck came off the line, it would fall like 5-6 feet to the lift.  Ford's protocol is to shut the entire portion of the line down for the shift to investigate for safety reasons.  Boom! paid shift off since the union negotiated it that way.

That all said, I am all for someone negotiating for as much as they can get.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I work for a global manufacturer, employees ~20,000.  We're all non-union AFAIK.  I interned for one of the big auto makers for two summers.  That's all it took to know I didn't want to work there for the rest of my life.  Almost got fired my first day on the job for picking up a bolt (safety hazard) in a walking aisle.

I have a good friend who worked for Ford for a while and has a bunch of family that still does.  The stories I hear from them along with the ones we all hear on the news definitely make me think the Auto unions are the primary issue in why most ppl hate unions.  I mean, they get by with some outlandish stuff.  Some of it could land the normal non-union guy in jail. 

Also, with the automation of the manufacturing process, it took skill out of many of the jobs from what I understand to the point that the "certain level of training" argument I made for the construction industry doesn't apply. 

For example, one story I heard was that a guy at Ford had the responsibility of checking one screw/bolt/whatevs on one certain part of the door of cars to make sure it was fully tightened.  How did he do this?  With a device that measures torque?  Nope.  with his thumbnail.  He went around and tried to slide his thumbnail behind the screw head and if he could, he had to call another guy over to tighten it.  His thumbnail was worn all weird because of this repeated use too.  this guy was getting paid in excess of $70k last I heard. 

Also, a new one I heard this yr: there is a lift at Ford that takes the truck from one level of the conveyor down a level to another area.  The lift can be manipulated so that it moves before the vehicle is fully placed on it by the conveyor.  A certain guy was significantly lowering the lift so that when the truck came off the line, it would fall like 5-6 feet to the lift.  Ford's protocol is to shut the entire portion of the line down for the shift to investigate for safety reasons.  Boom! paid shift off since the union negotiated it that way.

That all said, I am all for someone negotiating for as much as they can get.

Those unions would already be dead because of crap like that if the government wouldn't have bailed them out.

[michigancat]

I thought this thread was about buildings on college campuses where students congregate outside of class.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I thought this thread was about buildings on college campuses where students congregate outside of class.

K-State has the best union that I have visited, by far. I haven't been to many outside of Kansas, though.

[puniraptor]

I thought this thread was about plumbing and joining two pieces of pipe together.