JO

[Belvis Noland]

settling?  how do you "settle" on the reality of a player's abilities?  your unrealistic expectations are the problem.  what a stupid argument to make.

I think it's very realistic to expect JO to perform at a higher level against teams like TCU, Tech, WVU, UT, etc.   

the fact that you're arguing over what's actually happened seems ridiculous

what?

[catzacker]

JO should be more than a 15-20mpg guy.  His linear growth over the last 3 seasons would indicate he should be more.  Why he’s not?  Probably a variety of reasons (his motivation, oscar’s ability to motivate/coach, ect), but primarily his skill set and how it relates to what oscar wants in his offense.  You can’t simply see a growth pattern over the last 3 years in one “system” and then regression in another “system” and not draw some correlation. 

http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=25815.msg741948#msg741948

So Gip is better than JO in every category except blocks?

why are you're ignoring the fact that every player on our team seems to have no issue with

oscar’s ability to motivate/coach

You don't think Frank treated him different?  Do you honestly believe every player gets motivated the same way?  jfc, clams.

link?

pfft.  ok, dax.

[kso_FAN]

how can you honestly not see how he's been used differently in the two coaches' offenses?  do you watch the games or are you so #BiD that you boycott everything and just come here to vent?

Numerical support: http://www.hoop-math.com/KANSAS%20STATE2013.html

Last year JO shot 58% of his shots at the rim (layups/dunks) and made 69%. This year he's shooting 40% of his shots at the rim and making 72%.
Last year JO shot 42% of his shots as 2PT jumpers and made 34%. this year he's shooting 60% of his shots as 2PT jumpers and making 36%.
Plus his FT rate is down from 64% to 47% and his FT% is down from 56% to 30%.

oscar's offense is different, and I'm fine with it.

[pissclams]

JO should be more than a 15-20mpg guy.  His linear growth over the last 3 seasons would indicate he should be more.  Why he’s not?  Probably a variety of reasons (his motivation, oscar’s ability to motivate/coach, ect), but primarily his skill set and how it relates to what oscar wants in his offense.  You can’t simply see a growth pattern over the last 3 years in one “system” and then regression in another “system” and not draw some correlation. 

http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=25815.msg741948#msg741948

So Gip is better than JO in every category except blocks?

why are you're ignoring the fact that every player on our team seems to have no issue with

oscar’s ability to motivate/coach

You don't think Frank treated him different?  Do you honestly believe every player gets motivated the same way?  jfc, clams.

link?

pfft.  ok, dax.

a stupid post deserves at least as stupid a response, in my book anyway.  just an imo.

[pissclams]

how can you honestly not see how he's been used differently in the two coaches' offenses?  do you watch the games or are you so #BiD that you boycott everything and just come here to vent?

Numerical support: http://www.hoop-math.com/KANSAS%20STATE2013.html

Last year JO shot 58% of his shots at the rim (layups/dunks) and made 69%. This year he's shooting 40% of his shots at the rim and making 72%.
Last year JO shot 42% of his shots as 2PT jumpers and made 34%. this year he's shooting 60% of his shots as 2PT jumpers and making 36%.
Plus his FT rate is down from 64% to 47% and his FT% is down from 56% to 30%.

oscar's offense is different, and I'm fine with it.

as someone who was very critical in the past of frank's offense, i am fine with oscar's o as well. 

[catzacker]

My comment about oscar’s coaching/motivation was in specific reference to JO.  Your comment about other players seemed to suggest that everyone else on the team is fine with oscar’s coaching/motivatation, hence my response that JO probably needs something different to motivate him – Frank obviously found that – whether it was burning houses or eye hernias.   But again, those items are periphery (in my opinion) to the driver which is the style of play.

[kougar24]

JO is a solid player at 15-20 MPG and he benefits in certain match-ups.

He's a 6'11" senior who has played a ton throughout his career; this isn't good enough now, sorry. You can say I have unrealistic expectations if you want, but I'll disagree. I think you are settling.

settling?  how do you "settle" on the reality of a player's abilities?  your unrealistic expectations are the problem.  what a stupid argument to make.

Within the context of our opinions of him. My opinion is that he isn't as good as he should be based on a reasonable expectation of year-to-year improvement. I don't find that stupid.

cool, well your opinion of him is wrong. 

No, my opinion is that he's not good enough relative to what he should be as a senior. I'm sure there are plenty of people in the basketball world who would agree.

oscar's offense isn't causing him to suck ass at the line, suck ass on defense (he does), and suck ass at simple things he still can't do, like catch a ball in close quarters, execute a post move on the low block, etc.

He isn't playing 15 mpg because he doesn't "fit oscar's offense"...he's playing 15 mpg because he sucks at things that are system-independent.

[pissclams]

My comment about oscar’s coaching/motivation was in specific reference to JO.  Your comment about other players seemed to suggest that everyone else on the team is fine with oscar’s coaching/motivatation, hence my response that JO probably needs something different to motivate him – Frank obviously found that – whether it was burning houses or eye hernias.   But again, those items are periphery (in my opinion) to the driver which is the style of play.

so you've chosen to exclude evidence (_FAN's stats) that oscar's coaching/motivational approach is fine (essentially every player on the team, including JO, is playing better than they did the previous year) and instead are measuring him up against an arbitrary level at which you and kougz believe he should be playing.  that's cool too.

[PIPE]

Most people, including me, want JO to be good.  This team struggles bad when our bigs (see KU) don't contribute......

Some can say it is Bruces' system, others say it is his skill set......It is probably both

Some things to look at:

Getting an alley oop at the rim and getting blocked by.....what for it......the rim=poor skill set
Getting a rebound underneath and getting blocked/tied up by someone 6" shorter than him=poor skill set
Losing a ball under the goal due to stone hands=poor skill set
Complaining after every call against him=poor sportsmanship
More fouls called on him=poor skill set/out of position
Less minutes=oscar's system/poor skill set/bad match ups/foul trouble

Most of his problems appear to be poor skill set.....he get's those corrected, he will be a force!

[catzacker]

My comment about oscar’s coaching/motivation was in specific reference to JO.  Your comment about other players seemed to suggest that everyone else on the team is fine with oscar’s coaching/motivatation, hence my response that JO probably needs something different to motivate him – Frank obviously found that – whether it was burning houses or eye hernias.   But again, those items are periphery (in my opinion) to the driver which is the style of play.

so you've chosen to exclude evidence (_FAN's stats) that oscar's coaching/motivational approach is fine (essentially every player on the team, including JO, is playing better than they did the previous year) and instead are measuring him up against an arbitrary level at which you and kougz believe he should be playing.  that's cool too.

i don't think it's arbitrary to expect the same type of growth that existed in between his fr-so-jr years.  jfc, who doesn't expect it?  Rod was always going to be Freshman rod?  gmafb.  If JO's #'s are just as "effecient" at 20mpg game last year as they are at 15mpg this year, then oscar is an idiot for not playing him more. 

[pissclams]

it's called a ceiling. 

[kougar24]

it's called a ceiling. 

If you hit your ceiling your sophomore year, fans have a right to be disappointed in you.

[pissclams]

it's called a ceiling. 

If you hit your ceiling your sophomore year, fans have a right to be disappointed in you.

the only reason you are disappointed in JO is because you're a dumbass, it really has nothing to do with anything action of oscar or JO.  this has been covered ad nauseum in this thread, but keep up the good fight.

[kougar24]

it's called a ceiling. 

If you hit your ceiling your sophomore year, fans have a right to be disappointed in you.

the only reason you are disappointed in JO is because you're a dumbass, it really has nothing to do with anything action of oscar or JO.  this has been covered ad nauseum in this thread, but keep up the good fight.

Great point, I'm a dumbass for expecting JO to be better as a senior than he is, based on past performance at or above the level he is now.

And by "great point" I mean "Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) point."

[pissclams]

the fact that you think that every thing and every one follows a linear development model is rough ridin' stupid, yes. 

[kougar24]

the fact that you think that every thing and every one follows a linear development model is rough ridin' stupid, yes. 

I never said one damn thing about "linear development."

[michigancat]

I thought JO was better as a junior than a sophomore.

[pissclams]

I thought JO was better as a junior than a sophomore.

that doesn't fit their talking point

the fact that you think that every thing and every one follows a linear development model is rough ridin' stupid, yes. 

I never said one damn thing about "linear development."

[kougar24]

I thought JO was better as a junior than a sophomore.

If anything, the end of last year proves he's currently nowhere near the ceiling clams is referring to.

But hey, we shouldn't expect him to be, for some dumb reason.

[pissclams]

you can want/expect whatever the eff you want, when i was a kid i wanted to be an astronaut.  fortunately for all of us, we don't have a 6 page thread here blaming oscar and wondering why i didn't make it to my potential.

[kougar24]

you can want/expect whatever the eff you want, when i was a kid i wanted to be an astronaut.  fortunately for all of us, we don't have a 6 page thread here blaming oscar and wondering why i didn't make it to my potential.

that IS fortunate. PI'ing in space would be dangerous.

[catzacker]

I thought JO was better as a junior than a sophomore.

that doesn't fit their talking point

like, actually, that perfectly fits my talking point about showing improvement every year except this year.  if your opinion is that last year was his ceiling, fine.  I don't think that.  I think he could/should be better and has regressed.

[Belvis Noland]

If we're ever in a tight game, needing a bucket.  Does anybody want the ball in JO's hands? 

 

[kso_FAN]

I think the problem with JO is that people want to make his performance this year someone's "fault" and I'm not sure anyone is really at "fault".

He went from a system that played 2 true bigs, to a system that plays 1. JO didn't get worse, but Gip got better and more importantly got into better shape so he can play more effective minutes. Plus, Gip seems to "fit" better into oscar's offense. Regardless, JO is a much different offensive system, and therefore is getting different shots.

Rebounding is better. He turns it over less. Blocking shots at a similar rate. But he fouls more and is shooting more 2PT jumps shots and less at the rim, thus his shooting %-age is down and so is his scoring.

Much of last season he was Franked around, it wasn't until the last 9 games that Frank made him a 25-30 minute player and he played the best basketblal of his career. Unfortunately the changes with oscar's system haven't allowed a repeat of that and likely won't. However, JO is still a valuable player for us, even if he has struggled scoring in in our toughest league games. This season its never going to be either/or with him and Gip, and to have a chance to win the league and make a run in the tornament, we'll need him to play well and score a better rate. And he seems to have adjusted better to a different role and the changes than our fans.

[wabash909]

If we're ever in a tight game, needing a bucket.  Does anybody want the ball in JO's hands?

Actually putting the ball in JO's hands would be the first challenge to overcome.