Law School

[wetwillie]

be a union electrician or lineman.

yes, bro-in-law does this, makes great bank. Crazy hours, though.

My BIL does too, in western kansas.  has a permanent wind chapped and sunburned face though.

[Dugout DickStone]

This might have already been posted (haven't read all six pages of thread), but law school apps are way way down right now. Mostly because there aren't any jobs, but still... Getting into law school won't be the problem.

I work in legal marketing for a big firm and read a lot of stuff daily about the job prospects in the industry. The best advice I have heard came from a law school dean. He said don't go to the highest ranked law school that accepts you; go to the law school where you can graduate with the highest rank. In short, don't go to yale and graduate in the middle of the class. Go to KU and graduate in the top ten.

Looking at my firm's most recent class of associates, that advice rings true.  We hired graduates from washburn, cal-berkeley, ku, umkc, and mu (all of whom make six figures now easily) and they were all in the top ten of their class, law review editors, and had experience as summer associates at firms in the area.

Also, if you decide on law school, that premed experience will be super attractive. Biotechnology is big right now, as well as pharmaceutical litigation.

You don't have to have any pre-med to do pharma.  In fact, I haven't seen it even be favored.

[hurtsogood]

don't go to yale and graduate in the middle of the class.

THIS IS VERY, VERY BAD ADVICE.

There are about 110 partners at my firm who think that is great advice.

Well, they're completely out of touch then.

Rich lawyers tend to be out of touch.

The dean who gave you that advice was intentionally giving bad advice or is a complete idiot.  Given that he's a law school dean, it's probably the first.  It's an absurd philosophy for an applicant to bank on getting in the top 10% at any school when he has no idea about what law school classes are like and whether or not he's any good at them in the first place. 

The odds are against them.  9 out of 10 law students who all did well enough in undergrad and on the LSAT who hope they get in the top 10% end up not being in the top 10%.

If some one ever tells an applicant to go to KU or Illinois or tons of other schools over Yale (or a number of other schools) for any reason at all, they do not have the applicant's best interest in mind.

I agree that the dean is not exactly an unbiased source, but there are dozens of millionaire, practice leading attorneys at my firm who went to ku, mu, umkc and washburn over ivy league schools. The highest grossing attorney at my firm (represents fortune 500 companies in "bet-the-company litigation") went to mu for both undergrad and law school. He is arguably the best attorney in his field in the nation.

Another point is this: when law firms hire, they hire local talent. For example, there is a high dollar litigation firm based out of new york that just recently opened an office in kc. When they opened the office, they moved one or two attorneys from new york and then filled remaining positions with attorneys from the area.  When they start to hire new associates for the kc office, they will look first at the top local talent that has served in summer associate positions with their office (not unlike a basketball or football program that recruits in-state). The attorneys in the area and the summer associates in the kc office will likely have come from.... ku, mu, umkc, etc.

I'm not saying "pick ku over yale." i'm saying pick the school where you will be competitive and at least as intelligent as your classmates.  Law school choice means significantly less than your class ranking.  It is better to be #1 at ku then #104 at yale. That's the point i am making.

But this is all moot. If you can get into yale, you will probably be well off no matter which top 100 school you choose.

[DQ12]

Law school choice means significantly less than your class ranking.  It is better to be #1 at ku then #104 at yale. That's the point i am making.

That may be true.  But you're acting as if applicants have any clue as to what their class rank is going to be. 

It's absolutely 100% foolish and risky to choose a law school with the presumption that you're going to be #1 (or top 10%, or top 25%, or whatever) in your class.  Smart people don't do that.  It's horrible, backwards, advice.  There are plenty of great reasons to go to a non Yale/Harvard/Stanford+t14 law school, but basing your decision on the supposed relative intelligence of your class is not one of them.

[chum1]

Yale tuition.   

[Asteriskhead]

how old are you?

I am 23.

Footnote: I didn't listen as well as I should have.

[steve dave]

I bet hurtsogood is going to respond with the number of rich attorneys at his firm and how rich and the number of them and how many there are with shitloads of money again. This is just a hunch by your guy steve.

[Mr Bread]

I bet hurtsogood is going to respond with the number of rich attorneys at his firm and how rich and the number of them and how many there are with shitloads of money again. This is just a hunch by your guy steve.

Steve Dave, while he may not be an attorney himself, he knows basically a million real live lawyers that are crazy paid but also hate their jobs.  He's not talking out of his ass.  He's also personally spoken to an actual law school dean.  Maybe when you have even seen one in your life you can open your mouth about it. 

I know some lawyers myself and 110% of them always tell me they'd rather have their erect penises broken than continue being lawyers.  Pretty common for me to hear from them that if they could go back and choose, they'd rather eat a year's worth of crap sandwiches than go to law school and be a
lawyer.     

[hurtsogood]

Law school choice means significantly less than your class ranking.  It is better to be #1 at ku then #104 at yale. That's the point i am making.

That may be true.  But you're acting as if applicants have any clue as to what their class rank is going to be. 

It's absolutely 100% foolish and risky to choose a law school with the presumption that you're going to be #1 (or top 10%, or top 25%, or whatever) in your class.  Smart people don't do that.  It's horrible, backwards, advice.  There are plenty of great reasons to go to a non Yale/Harvard/Stanford+t14 law school, but basing your decision on the supposed relative intelligence of your class is not one of them.

Wouldn't average LSAT scores of the class give you an idea of where you will end up? If you score a 155, and the average at yale is 161, but you get in because you eff the dean or something, couldn't you expect to be toward the middle or back of the class? If you score a 155 and the average at KU is 150 (made up number for the sake of argument), couldn't you expect to be toward the front of that class assuming you put in the work?

Don't answer those rhetorical questions. This argument is clearly not going to end anytime soon and I'm sure you have a reason for why LSAT scores are bunk. I only posted in this thread to give my perspective (as someone who reads, writes and analyzes material about the legal industry every single day because it is literally my job) to the original poster.

Also (for stevedave because he makes me laugh) there are a bunch of rich lawyers at my huge, locally based firm and a lot of them went to ku and make a bunch of money now at my huge firm because they went to ku.

 

[Rage Against the McKee]

Law school choice means significantly less than your class ranking.  It is better to be #1 at ku then #104 at yale. That's the point i am making.

That may be true.  But you're acting as if applicants have any clue as to what their class rank is going to be. 

It's absolutely 100% foolish and risky to choose a law school with the presumption that you're going to be #1 (or top 10%, or top 25%, or whatever) in your class.  Smart people don't do that.  It's horrible, backwards, advice.  There are plenty of great reasons to go to a non Yale/Harvard/Stanford+t14 law school, but basing your decision on the supposed relative intelligence of your class is not one of them.

Wouldn't average LSAT scores of the class give you an idea of where you will end up? If you score a 155, and the average at yale is 161, but you get in because you eff the dean or something, couldn't you expect to be toward the middle or back of the class? If you score a 155 and the average at KU is 150 (made up number for the sake of argument), couldn't you expect to be toward the front of that class assuming you put in the work?

Don't answer those rhetorical questions. This argument is clearly not going to end anytime soon and I'm sure you have a reason for why LSAT scores are bunk. I only posted in this thread to give my perspective (as someone who reads, writes and analyzes material about the legal industry every single day because it is literally my job) to the original poster.

Also (for stevedave because he makes me laugh) there are a bunch of rich lawyers at my huge, locally based firm and a lot of them went to ku and make a bunch of money now at my huge firm because they went to ku.

 

I don't think admittance test scores really should give you any expectation at all.

[michigancat]

hurtsogood also seems to have a firm grasp on the law school admission process.

[DQ12]

hurtsogood also seems to have a firm grasp on the law school admission process.

yep.  i'm just going to defer to him on this.  bulletproof argument, really.

[Emo EMAW]

For fucks sake if he likes the human body stuff and gets into med school he should NOT switch to engineering (unless he really really really really really really really really really likes international travel or something).

[Mr Bread]

hurtsogood also seems to have a firm grasp on the law school admission process.

yep.  i'm just going to defer to him on this.  bulletproof argument, really.

JFC you guys, he works in LEGAL MARKETING FOR A BIG FIRM.  You think people that are actually lawyers or are currently in law school can compete with that kind of expertise?  Just step off.  PEOPLE HAVE TOLD HIM THINGS and HE READS A LOT ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT'S LITERALLY HIS JOB.  Might want to take a break and maybe go get your new clown suits dry-cleaned.  Dumbasses. 

[DQ12]

[michigancat]

For fucks sake if he likes the human body stuff and gets into med school he should NOT switch to engineering (unless he really really really really really really really really really likes international travel or something).

In that case I would recommend becoming a doctor so he can travel internationally on vacation. Choosing engineering over medicine because you can make more four four years after undergrad would be insanely stupid.

[asava]

Law school choice means significantly less than your class ranking.  It is better to be #1 at ku then #104 at yale. That's the point i am making.

That may be true.  But you're acting as if applicants have any clue as to what their class rank is going to be. 

It's absolutely 100% foolish and risky to choose a law school with the presumption that you're going to be #1 (or top 10%, or top 25%, or whatever) in your class.  Smart people don't do that.  It's horrible, backwards, advice.  There are plenty of great reasons to go to a non Yale/Harvard/Stanford+t14 law school, but basing your decision on the supposed relative intelligence of your class is not one of them.

Wouldn't average LSAT scores of the class give you an idea of where you will end up? If you score a 155, and the average at yale is 161, but you get in because you eff the dean or something, couldn't you expect to be toward the middle or back of the class? If you score a 155 and the average at KU is 150 (made up number for the sake of argument), couldn't you expect to be toward the front of that class assuming you put in the work?

Don't answer those rhetorical questions. This argument is clearly not going to end anytime soon and I'm sure you have a reason for why LSAT scores are bunk. I only posted in this thread to give my perspective (as someone who reads, writes and analyzes material about the legal industry every single day because it is literally my job) to the original poster.

Also (for stevedave because he makes me laugh) there are a bunch of rich lawyers at my huge, locally based firm and a lot of them went to ku and make a bunch of money now at my huge firm because they went to ku.

 

I'd liken this to Michael Beasley and his pandering around the NBA. You can score as high as you want on the LSAT and it doesn't tell you anything about how you will perform in law school. Just because Beasley was the most talented of talented youth, didn't mean he could dominate in a league where everyone is talented and has far better work ethic than him.

[8manpick]

For fucks sake if he likes the human body stuff and gets into med school he should NOT switch to engineering (unless he really really really really really really really really really likes international travel or something).

In that case I would recommend becoming a doctor so he can travel internationally on vacation. Choosing engineering over medicine because you can make more four four years after undergrad would be insanely stupid.

Yeah, if you like the human body stuff, why on earth would you want to do engineering?  Unless you also like math and problem sets and stuff a lot too.  Never mind that from now until he is done it would probably take the same amount of time to graduate from med school as it would to graduate with a bachelors in engineering.

[Emo EMAW]

For fucks sake if he likes the human body stuff and gets into med school he should NOT switch to engineering (unless he really really really really really really really really really likes international travel or something).

In that case I would recommend becoming a doctor so he can travel internationally on vacation. Choosing engineering over medicine because you can make more four four years after undergrad would be insanely stupid.

Well yes this is a good point.  But like who goes to China or Turkey or the Czech Republic or Australia for fun?  Do doctors do those sorts of things?  Figured they'd just go to Paris or Rome or Mexico or something.  Or like Africa to help the poor folks.

[Ghost of Stan Parrish]

The reason a KC firm looks local is because it wants people who are admitted locally.  Also, very few Yale Law School grads are available in the KC market.  A KC law firm would get a total hard-on if it could hire a graduate from a top law school.  That doesn't mean they're better lawyers -- I'd believe a Mizzou Law School alumn could well be the best in the world -- but law firms love to have associates and partners from fancy schools to impress clients.  Also, as far as being in the top 10% at Yale Law School ... it doesn't have class rankings.  YLS doesn't even give normal grades, or any grades at all first semester.  Most of your top schools won't ever release your class ranking to anyone, ever, under penalty of law.

I went to the highest-priced law school in the country at the time (might still be) instead of taking a scholarship to KU Law.  Sometimes I regret the debt.  Usually I'm happy with my choice.  I've had a very interesting and rewarding career with many open doors.

To Sundance:  If you're going into law because you love fast-paced mental exertion, you won't necessarily be happy.  There's a whole lot of time you'll be paging through 5,000 multi-page insurance applications looking for some particular thing, if you're at a firm.  If you're a solo, you'll spend a lot of time working on some stupid little matter that also involves no mental exertion whatsoever.  It's a job.  It's not always as exciting as you seem to think.

[Emo EMAW]

The Good Wife makes it seem pretty awesome tho? 

[asava]

To Sundance:  If you're going into law because you love fast-paced mental exertion, you won't necessarily be happy.  There's a whole lot of time you'll be paging through 5,000 multi-page insurance applications looking for some particular thing, if you're at a firm.  If you're a solo, you'll spend a lot of time working on some stupid little matter that also involves no mental exertion whatsoever.  It's a job.  It's not always as exciting as you seem to think.

obviously you've never seen The Pelican Brief.

[michigancat]

HA HA, TWO GREAT REPLIES

[Ghost of Stan Parrish]

I know a lot of motivated, intelligent, well-spoken recent law grads who are struggling.  I think they've all found something, but the market is really tough.  That said, three years will make a big difference.  I'd research how much applications are down because this might actually be a good time to get in the game with less competition.

If you go to a great law school you'll be fine.  If you go to a local law school, pick the one with the lowest tuition.

My gut says to tell you "no" based on the recent grads (and 3Ls) I know who are struggling, but if you find apps to law school are way down this might actually be the right time...

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/31/education/law-schools-applications-fall-as-costs-rise-and-jobs-are-cut.html?_r=0

[Bloodfart]

Law school choice means significantly less than your class ranking.  It is better to be #1 at ku then #104 at yale. That's the point i am making.

That may be true.  But you're acting as if applicants have any clue as to what their class rank is going to be. 

It's absolutely 100% foolish and risky to choose a law school with the presumption that you're going to be #1 (or top 10%, or top 25%, or whatever) in your class.  Smart people don't do that.  It's horrible, backwards, advice.  There are plenty of great reasons to go to a non Yale/Harvard/Stanford+t14 law school, but basing your decision on the supposed relative intelligence of your class is not one of them.

Wouldn't average LSAT scores of the class give you an idea of where you will end up? If you score a 155, and the average at yale is 161, but you get in because you eff the dean or something, couldn't you expect to be toward the middle or back of the class? If you score a 155 and the average at KU is 150 (made up number for the sake of argument), couldn't you expect to be toward the front of that class assuming you put in the work?

Don't answer those rhetorical questions. This argument is clearly not going to end anytime soon and I'm sure you have a reason for why LSAT scores are bunk. I only posted in this thread to give my perspective (as someone who reads, writes and analyzes material about the legal industry every single day because it is literally my job) to the original poster.

Also (for stevedave because he makes me laugh) there are a bunch of rich lawyers at my huge, locally based firm and a lot of them went to ku and make a bunch of money now at my huge firm because they went to ku.

 

I'd liken this to Michael Beasley and his pandering around the NBA. You can score as high as you want on the LSAT and it doesn't tell you anything about how you will perform in law school. Just because Beasley was the most talented of talented youth, didn't mean he could dominate in a league where everyone is talented and has far better work ethic than him.

Nice comparo    You could also apply this theory to the MCAT and med school.