College basketball; getting worse?

[bigwillie20]

Need to get rid of the 3 point line so them damn midmajors can't use that as an equalizer against more talented teams in the torn-a-ment 

[MakeItRain]

Today you've regressed back to bigwillie20 circa February 2012. Take a long lunch break, get some food, catch a nap and come back later.

[bigwillie20]

Today you've regressed back to bigwillie20 circa February 2012. Take a long lunch break, get some food, catch a nap and come back later.

 

[cork_sniffer]

the players are better, bigger, stronger, and faster as a result of the explosion of the games popularity domestically and internationally leading to a talent pool feeding college basketball that is somewhere between 3 and 5 times the size that it was just 15 years ago.  there is more player turnover (early departures and transfers) and less coaching time (20 hour rule + more games).  offenses and defenses are far more complex than ever now that most coaches have 50 to 100 set plays instead of running motion with a handful of sets. 

to the untrained and/or biased eye basketball looks down but in reality the game itself has never been better in many ways.  If the refs started calling the game like they did 15-20 years ago and let offenses run without so much contact then we'd see an explosion in scoring.  but with the bigger stronger players the refs seem less inclined to call basic contact such as holding and bumping cutters and body'ing up shooters.  the result is lower scoring and more physical games that makes it seem like there is less talent out there.   It's not that they don't call enough fouls or need to call less fouls it's what over time is being allowed in the normal course of a possession that has changed the game so much.

I think the bolded part is a bit overstated, but the rest of your post is very insightful.

yeah, that would be more accurate for the NBA.  I did read a study a few years ago where it looked at the probability of high school aged kids making teams in any of the major professional sports leagues in America.  (I teach/coach in the inner city and we get all kinds of literature like this)  Basketball was by far the most exclusive due to the huge influx of international players and a literal doubling of participation domestically in a generation (secondary or high school level athletes vs number of roster spots on average available for each incoming rookie class).  That is where I got the 3 to 5 times, I should have worded that differently.  I think the reason basketball has grown so much in the last 20 years can be tied to Magic, Bird, Jordan, and the Dream team directly.  I wonder what percentage of NBA players and college players are foreign born now?  20%? 

[michigancat]

are there really more transfers? is there data to back that up?

[ManBearTurkey]

Scouting has also improved tenfold.

Everyone has the ability to see every second a player has played, in addition to advanced stats and tendencies. 

[MakeItRain]

are there really more transfers? is there data to back that up?

I'm not going to look for it but Goodman had a chart that showed a steady rise in transfers. The rise in transfers was sighted in the recruiting calendar rule change.

[kso_FAN]

are there really more transfers? is there data to back that up?

I can't find any. There are articles that point that direction, but don't give historical numbers.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2012/11/06/ncaa-mens-college-basketball-transfers/1679115/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/04/sports/ncaafootball/college-basketball-transfers-gain-popularity.html

According to N.C.A.A. statistics, about 40 percent of men’s basketball players will not be playing for their original team by the end of their sophomore year.

[8manpick]

the players are better, bigger, stronger, and faster as a result of the explosion of the games popularity domestically and internationally leading to a talent pool feeding college basketball that is somewhere between 3 and 5 times the size that it was just 15 years ago.  there is more player turnover (early departures and transfers) and less coaching time (20 hour rule + more games).  offenses and defenses are far more complex than ever now that most coaches have 50 to 100 set plays instead of running motion with a handful of sets. 

to the untrained and/or biased eye basketball looks down but in reality the game itself has never been better in many ways.  If the refs started calling the game like they did 15-20 years ago and let offenses run without so much contact then we'd see an explosion in scoring.  but with the bigger stronger players the refs seem less inclined to call basic contact such as holding and bumping cutters and body'ing up shooters.  the result is lower scoring and more physical games that makes it seem like there is less talent out there.   It's not that they don't call enough fouls or need to call less fouls it's what over time is being allowed in the normal course of a possession that has changed the game so much.

I think the bolded part is a bit overstated, but the rest of your post is very insightful.

yeah, that would be more accurate for the NBA.  I did read a study a few years ago where it looked at the probability of high school aged kids making teams in any of the major professional sports leagues in America.  (I teach/coach in the inner city and we get all kinds of literature like this)  Basketball was by far the most exclusive due to the huge influx of international players and a literal doubling of participation domestically in a generation (secondary or high school level athletes vs number of roster spots on average available for each incoming rookie class).  That is where I got the 3 to 5 times, I should have worded that differently.  I think the reason basketball has grown so much in the last 20 years can be tied to Magic, Bird, Jordan, and the Dream team directly.  I wonder what percentage of NBA players and college players are foreign born now?  20%?

Definitely agree for NBA, but so many of the really good foreign guys are playing pro Euroball before coming to the NBA, instead of going to college (see Ricky Rubio, et al.).  I don't think many of the top foreign players are coming here to play college ball.

[MakeItRain]

I don't think many of the top foreign players are coming here to play college ball.

Most can't because they aren't amateurs.

[8manpick]

I don't think many of the top foreign players are coming here to play college ball.

Most can't because they aren't amateurs.

Yeah, I mean, I didn't phrase it very well, but I did say they were playing pro ball the sentence before that.

[cork_sniffer]

there are more foreign born college players than you think, many of whom play mid to low major ball.  keep in mind canada is another country.   

the point being that basketball, unlike football, is played all over the world right now at a relatively high level.  That has an effect on the amount of talented players available for rosters and ultimately makes the best players not as exceptional physically (ie levels the playing field more and makes things more competitive). 

[cork_sniffer]

the players are better, bigger, stronger, and faster as a result of the explosion of the games popularity domestically and internationally leading to a talent pool feeding college basketball that is somewhere between 3 and 5 times the size that it was just 15 years ago.  there is more player turnover (early departures and transfers) and less coaching time (20 hour rule + more games).  offenses and defenses are far more complex than ever now that most coaches have 50 to 100 set plays instead of running motion with a handful of sets. 

to the untrained and/or biased eye basketball looks down but in reality the game itself has never been better in many ways.  If the refs started calling the game like they did 15-20 years ago and let offenses run without so much contact then we'd see an explosion in scoring.  but with the bigger stronger players the refs seem less inclined to call basic contact such as holding and bumping cutters and body'ing up shooters.  the result is lower scoring and more physical games that makes it seem like there is less talent out there.   It's not that they don't call enough fouls or need to call less fouls it's what over time is being allowed in the normal course of a possession that has changed the game so much.

I think the bolded part is a bit overstated, but the rest of your post is very insightful.

yeah, that would be more accurate for the NBA.  I did read a study a few years ago where it looked at the probability of high school aged kids making teams in any of the major professional sports leagues in America.  (I teach/coach in the inner city and we get all kinds of literature like this)  Basketball was by far the most exclusive due to the huge influx of international players and a literal doubling of participation domestically in a generation (secondary or high school level athletes vs number of roster spots on average available for each incoming rookie class).  That is where I got the 3 to 5 times, I should have worded that differently.  I think the reason basketball has grown so much in the last 20 years can be tied to Magic, Bird, Jordan, and the Dream team directly.  I wonder what percentage of NBA players and college players are foreign born now?  20%?

Definitely agree for NBA, but so many of the really good foreign guys are playing pro Euroball before coming to the NBA, instead of going to college (see Ricky Rubio, et al.).  I don't think many of the top foreign players are coming here to play college ball.

not top players but for the sake of looking at the pool of talent that is feeding the college and ultimately the nba levels it is significant when talking about parity at each level being influenced by the larger talent pool.  Gonzaga has 5 foreign players in their rotation this year and has relied on euros, aussies, and canadiens since few took over pretty much.  UCONN has 3 german players, KU just recruited a kid from Cameroon and signed one from canada last year.  I think there is between 1 and 3 on every roster in the big 12.  (except KSU and KU)

[_33]

They could fix college basketball with 3 rule changes. Maybe even 2 rule changes and 1 point of emphasis.

[8manpick]

They could fix college basketball with 3 rule changes. Maybe even 2 rule changes and 1 point of emphasis.

Which ones

[steve dave]

when KSU is good it always seems like college basketball is getting better. but, when we suck it seems like it's getting worse. we have the worst luck.

[_33]

when KSU is good it always seems like college basketball is getting better. but, when we suck it seems like it's getting worse. we have the worst luck.

Actually this year I think we are taking advantage for the most part.  We're ranked. Can you believe that?

[steve dave]

when KSU is good it always seems like college basketball is getting better. but, when we suck it seems like it's getting worse. we have the worst luck.

Actually this year I think we are taking advantage for the most part.  We're ranked. Can you believe that?

_33, shut up

[_33]

You shut up

[Stevesie60]

steve dave is not very nice to his real life friends.

[nicname]

CBB peaked in the late 80's early 90's.  It dropped off around 94-95.  It has been pretty steady since then.

[sys]

some teams are better, some teams are worse.  cbball is .500, similar to previous years.

[MakeItRain]

CBB peaked in the late 80's early 90's.  It dropped off around 94-95.  It has been pretty steady since then.

the eff?



WHITE TIGER!!!!!

[nicname]

CBB peaked in the late 80's early 90's.  It dropped off around 94-95.  It has been pretty steady since then.

the eff?



WHITE TIGER!!!!!

White Tiger aside, if quality of play is a combination of talent/ ability, training and experience, then yeah, about that time.  It was the 95 draft, I think, when younger guys really started going pro a lot more.  Sure, the talent pool may be larger now, but the top guys aren't sticking around. It dilutes everything else from there on down.  What the Fab Five did was special because they were doing it against a bunch of seasoned veterans; a bunch of guys who would already be in the league in today's game. 

[Cire]

the players are better, bigger, stronger, and faster as a result of the explosion of the games popularity domestically and internationally leading to a talent pool feeding college basketball that is somewhere between 3 and 5 times the size that it was just 15 years ago.  there is more player turnover (early departures and transfers) and less coaching time (20 hour rule + more games).  offenses and defenses are far more complex than ever now that most coaches have 50 to 100 set plays instead of running motion with a handful of sets. 

to the untrained and/or biased eye basketball looks down but in reality the game itself has never been better in many ways.  If the refs started calling the game like they did 15-20 years ago and let offenses run without so much contact then we'd see an explosion in scoring.  but with the bigger stronger players the refs seem less inclined to call basic contact such as holding and bumping cutters and body'ing up shooters.  the result is lower scoring and more physical games that makes it seem like there is less talent out there.   It's not that they don't call enough fouls or need to call less fouls it's what over time is being allowed in the normal course of a possession that has changed the game so much. 

Lock it up boys