Author Topic: Beating KU (or anyone good really)  (Read 3291 times)

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Offline kso_FAN

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Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« on: January 21, 2013, 05:12:28 PM »
First a bit of a prelude. As oscar continues to put his stamp on K-State basketball, I've adjusted my perceptions of what to look for as important going from game to game. Frank's system was built around the premise that K-State was going to out-tough and out-effort opponents on a night in and night out basis. That doesn't mean Frank's scheming and tactics were lacking, because he was still solid in both, but at the end of the day we had to have the effort and toughness to win consistently. So we all got used to watching oboarding, forcing turnovers, and getting to the foul line as the key factors. oscar has the carryover that Frank built into these players, so those still have importance, however oscar is much more a schemer and tactician, so the factors we look at as important have changed to an extent. His motion and movement have been talked about plenty, but what I've really enjoyed is seeing the subtleties and reads on the cuts and screens. I don't think its any coincidence that K-State has started to shoot the ball better in the last month or so as the players have become more and more comfortable with the system. And defensively the importance on forcing turnovers and bad shots remains, but with a mindset of allowing fewer easy baskets and reducing the foul calls (on the perimeter at least). This team is certainly not quite as tough as Frank's were, and the effort probably isn't quite the same, but oscar seems to be trying to make up for that with more sound decision making. In the last month that has worked great, we'll have to see the long term effects on not only this season, but the program as oscar continues to bring in his own players.

So the question becomes, what has changed?

With Frank I got used to looking at 45-40-25 as the keys. 45% for shooting (eFG%) and  FT rate, 40% oboarding, and 25% TO percentage forced. If K-State hit on all 4, they were going to beat about anyone and 3 of the 4 was going to beat most. 2 of 4 would be in most games, and 1 or less was likely a loss. Of course, there are exceptions; great shooting games (50% or better), or oboarding games (45% or better), etc, but for the most part that was what I looked for.

With oscar the factors have changed a bit. This team has still oboarded well and is forcing turnovers, but offense, shooting, and how we score has become important. Frank's teams were tough because they were built to score different ways, but again the fall back was effort plays, transition baskets, 2nd chance, and the occasional really good shooting night. In many ways players generated shots much more than the offense generated shots. With oscar the offense is much more about the system and the offense generating shots. Better shooting points to this, but also a much higher rate of assists per made shots.

So now I look for factors of 35, 50, and 60, and just on offense. First 35; this is the percentage of shot attempts K-State needs from 3, the percentage we need to shoot from 3, and the percentage we need to rebound our own misses. If you look at the pattern in our games against decent teams this year, in wins we average those kinds of numbers. However, 2s are still important, namely shooting 50% on the 2s we do get. Early we not only struggled on 3s shooting the ball, but we were often awful shooting 2s. Finally, 60% of our made shots need to come off of assists. This means the motion offense is generating the shots and we are shooting the majority of our shots off of the pass.

Now to go with that we've got to have good defensive numbers; 25% turnovers forced, 30% oboarding allowed, and 45% or worse shooting allowed. We have played really well on defense when we get those numbers.

On to KU; I'd say against Top 5 teams usually you have to be better. We still need a balanced offense; 35% (or more) of our shots as 3s, but probably need to shoot from there in the upper 30s. However, the real challenge against KU will be approaching 50% on 2s and keeping our TO% on offense below 20%. Do that and K-State is looking good on offense, and those aren't impossible numbers. Then on defense at least match them shooting (keep them below 50% at least), but also get their TO% above 20 and oboarding below 35. To me FT rate has decreased in its role a bit, but still has some importance because we need to keep Angel and JO on the floor.

It will be interesting seeing oscar's system in action against Self. Frank got us 2 great wins, but he also had 9 losses. Nothing wrong with that because Frank did so many other things well, but KU was often a tough match-up for us because it become so tough for us to score in those games. Now we get to see if a different system on offense can be more successful.

With the way we are playing and the way KU is playing, I like our chances tomorrow night. I don't think we'll reach all the marks we need to, but I think we'll reach enough.

K-State 66 - KU 63


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« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 05:19:12 PM by ksu_FAN »

Offline EllRobersonisInnocent

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2013, 05:15:09 PM »
K-State 66 - KU 63

Offline AbeFroman

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2013, 05:18:47 PM »
 :dance: <---but with oscar's head

Offline steve dave

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Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2013, 05:19:41 PM »
Great analysis _FAN

Offline OregonSmock

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2013, 05:22:13 PM »
Our DOB beat oscar by about 40 last season.  He could be our secret weapon this year.

Offline kougar24

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2013, 05:25:38 PM »
KU 71
KSU 59

No analysis needed, I'm from the future.

Offline Mixed-Nutz

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2013, 05:28:51 PM »
I think kstate turnover rate is really important, especially for this game. KU has struggled to score recently in the half court and we can't give them free buckets. Another stat the important for Bruceketball is assist percentage, his motion offense is predicated on great passing. The one weakness of oscar's offense is that it can be to reliant on the jump shot.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2013, 05:36:52 PM »
I think kstate turnover rate is really important, especially for this game. KU has struggled to score recently in the half court and we can't give them free buckets. Another stat the important for Bruceketball is assist percentage, his motion offense is predicated on great passing. The one weakness of oscar's offense is that it can be to reliant on the jump shot.

Extremely important and very telling to how well we play under oscar.

Also, we just need Rodney to have a good game, but others to step up. Angel needs to handle the ball, but also shoot it. One big (JO or Gip) needs to have a solid game. Then probably a scoring game from a couple secondary players like Shane and/or Will. It's not one of those "we have to play perfect" games, but we do have to play well.




Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2013, 05:40:10 PM »
"Down 2 with 10 seconds left, Angel dribbles up the court, passes to Rodney at the top of the key. Rodney drives, the defense collapses in on him, he dishes it out to.....SPRADLING! SPRADLING PUTS IT UP AND (BUZZZZZ!!!).........IT'S GOOD! IT'S GOOD! K-STATE WINS!!! K.....STATE......WINS!!!!"

I wonder how goEMAW would respond to Spradling winning us a game like that.

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2013, 05:44:31 PM »
"Down 2 with 10 seconds left, Angel dribbles up the court, passes to Rodney at the top of the key. Rodney drives, the defense collapses in on him, he dishes it out to.....SPRADLING! SPRADLING PUTS IT UP AND (BUZZZZZ!!!).........IT'S GOOD! IT'S GOOD! K-STATE WINS!!! K.....STATE......WINS!!!!"

I wonder how goEMAW would respond to Spradling winning us a game like that.

His on the court performance is a minimal reason to why I hate him.

Offline EllRobersonisInnocent

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2013, 05:45:04 PM »
"Down 2 with 10 seconds left, Angel dribbles up the court, passes to Rodney at the top of the key. Rodney drives, the defense collapses in on him, he dishes it out to.....SPRADLING! SPRADLING PUTS IT UP AND (BUZZZZZ!!!).........IT'S GOOD! IT'S GOOD! K-STATE WINS!!! K.....STATE......WINS!!!!"

I wonder how goEMAW would respond to Spradling winning us a game like that.

Maybe he'd finally sprout a ball hair  :ohno:

Offline Powercat Posse

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2013, 06:09:17 PM »
Agree. KU needs to struggle shooting. Keep them to under 48 eFG%.  Big key is not letting them get 5-7 layups off of transistion.
And having the edge in TO% and OR% also key.

Id put our odds at 45% of getting the win. 68-64 is score I had in my mind, so close to the 66 63 projection.
If we can get to 65 Pts, then I really like our chances. 

Offline 8manpick

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2013, 06:12:05 PM »
Obligatory "straight to the bottom" since no one has said it. (Even though it isn't true)
:adios:

Offline sys

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2013, 08:16:21 PM »
if art's foot or knee is at all healthy, kstate wins by double digits.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline Mixed-Nutz

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2013, 08:21:23 PM »
if art's foot or knee is at all healthy, kstate wins by double digits.
Arts mom is going to be at the game again, I expect super human performance.

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2013, 01:34:20 AM »
How big of run does KU go on to open the 2nd half? I say 8-0, but it gets stretched to 14-2.

Offline CNS

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2013, 07:47:45 AM »
12 is the usual, right?   Also,  we have sucked out of half often. Could be that those 3-4min decide the game.

Offline pissclams

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2013, 07:51:45 AM »
12 is the usual, right?   Also,  we have sucked out of half often. Could be that those 3-4min decide the game.
could be. 


Cheesy Mustache QB might make an appearance.

New warning: Don't get in a fight with someone who doesn't even need to bother to buy ink.

Offline Pete

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2013, 07:58:45 AM »
12 is the usual, right?   Also,  we have sucked out of half often. Could be that those 3-4min decide the game.
could be.
possibly

Offline pissclams

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2013, 08:09:28 AM »
anything's possible, yup, def agree with pete and cns here.  any of the game's 40 minutes could decide the game.


Cheesy Mustache QB might make an appearance.

New warning: Don't get in a fight with someone who doesn't even need to bother to buy ink.

Offline Pete

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2013, 08:20:35 AM »
anything's possible, yup, def agree with pete and cns here.  any of the game's 40 minutes could decide the game.
could be

Offline Gooch

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2013, 09:09:02 AM »
any of the game's 40 minutes could decide the game.
HBBIQ right here folks

Offline Cire

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2013, 09:10:11 AM »
any of the game's 40 minutes could decide the game.
HBBIQ right here folks

That's why we buy the premium.

Offline Gooch

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2013, 09:12:33 AM »
any of the game's 40 minutes could decide the game.
HBBIQ right here folks

That's why we buy the premium.
Yep. Money well spent.

Offline deputy dawg

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Re: Beating KU (or anyone good really)
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2013, 09:52:36 AM »
Somebody needs to send a hot GF to Lawrence and roofy Withey.